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Karak Bol
Cable Innovations
11
   |
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:19:00 -
[31] - Quote
Just an idea, dont know if its feasible as my grasp about PvP is a bit shaky when it comes to ganking. Lets say a corp mines Ice. 1 Orca, 6 Macks and another pilot in lets say an Arty Trasher with SeBos. Three Catalysts come in. The Trasher doesnt hesitate, locks a Catalyst and blows it out of the sky (As gank ships have absolutely no tank). Yes, the Thrasher may be lost, but the leftover Catalysts have no not enough DPS to crack a Mack so easily. And if the Catalysts are flown by -10 pilots, the Trasher is not even lost.
The question is now: Is the timeframe between out of warp and gank big enough for this? |
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
25
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:28:00 -
[32] - Quote
Karak Bol wrote:Just an idea, dont know if its feasible as my grasp about PvP is a bit shaky when it comes to ganking. Lets say a corp mines Ice. 1 Orca, 6 Macks and another pilot in lets say an Arty Trasher with SeBos. Three Catalysts come in. The Trasher doesnt hesitate, locks a Catalyst and blows it out of the sky (As gank ships have absolutely no tank). Yes, the Thrasher may be lost, but the leftover Catalysts have no not enough DPS to crack a Mack so easily. And if the Catalysts are flown by -10 pilots, the Trasher is not even lost.
The question is now: Is the timeframe between out of warp and gank big enough for this?
TBH probably not, lock times for most gank ships are less than 3 seconds so unless youve got other ships remote sensor boosting the thrasher you probably wont lock them before they can open fire. However it depends on the fit the ganker is using and what the ship is so give it a go and see. |
Henry Haphorn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
164
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:39:00 -
[33] - Quote
I see two things that are wrong with that Mackinaw's fit.
1. Too much focus on EM resistance. That miner ignored the other damage resists and didn't account for the resistance hole left by the armor.
2. He fitted cargo expanders and optimizers on that ship. Really? Fitting a shield tank with anti-tank mods? Seriously? Might as well fly that Mackinaw with no tank at all and invite the gankers to a feast. |
Skorpynekomimi
E.A.D Alliance
Omega Vector
85
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:41:00 -
[34] - Quote
Smodab Ongalot wrote:Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Because they want to pretend their suicide ganking has a point beyond increasing demand for minerals.
Didn't realize CCP changed ice mining in Crucible to also give minerals. Clearly this person bot/afk mines ice.
Read before you post.
Increasing demand for minerals. Not reducing supply. The demand comes from the loss of the mining ships AND the gank ships, all of which are bought again off the market.
It's like how hulkageddon won't ever stop people mining totally. It causes a huge demand around the event, and the lower supply pushes prices even further, luring people out to the belts.
You fail economics and reading comprehension forever. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
449
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 21:45:00 -
[35] - Quote
Darek Castigatus wrote:Karak Bol wrote:Just an idea, dont know if its feasible as my grasp about PvP is a bit shaky when it comes to ganking. Lets say a corp mines Ice. 1 Orca, 6 Macks and another pilot in lets say an Arty Trasher with SeBos. Three Catalysts come in. The Trasher doesnt hesitate, locks a Catalyst and blows it out of the sky (As gank ships have absolutely no tank). Yes, the Thrasher may be lost, but the leftover Catalysts have no not enough DPS to crack a Mack so easily. And if the Catalysts are flown by -10 pilots, the Trasher is not even lost.
The question is now: Is the timeframe between out of warp and gank big enough for this? TBH probably not, lock times for most gank ships are less than 3 seconds so unless youve got other ships remote sensor boosting the thrasher you probably wont lock them before they can open fire. However it depends on the fit the ganker is using and what the ship is so give it a go and see.
now, if the orca pilot (or thrasher, or someone else off grid) has shield ganglinks going ... it'll help the survivability of the macks (maybe a volley or two, if you're lucky).
really depends on if your "defense gank" thrasher can target/pop the catalysts fast enough to handle the situation, and if the mining fleet is somewhere "safe" (i.e. not at the GD warp-in point).
@ Henry -- Mack is shield tank ONLY ... and has paper thin armour/hull as it is (though a DCU would have helped for a volley) |
Smodab Ongalot
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
Skorpynekomimi wrote:
Read before you post.
Increasing demand for minerals. Not reducing supply. The demand comes from the loss of the mining ships AND the gank ships, all of which are bought again off the market.
It's like how hulkageddon won't ever stop people mining totally. It causes a huge demand around the event, and the lower supply pushes prices even further, luring people out to the belts.
You fail economics and reading comprehension forever.
Are you suggesting my hidden agenda is to drive up mineral prices buy destroying lots of ships (macks + dessies) which require minerals to be rebuilt?
Wouldn't the more logical assumption be that I'm trying to drive up the isotope prices?
I think you wrote minerals the first time, when you meant isotopes, and are now trying to not look foolish.
How's that workin out? |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
125
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 22:32:00 -
[37] - Quote
Velicitia wrote:Darek Castigatus wrote:Karak Bol wrote:Just an idea, dont know if its feasible as my grasp about PvP is a bit shaky when it comes to ganking. Lets say a corp mines Ice. 1 Orca, 6 Macks and another pilot in lets say an Arty Trasher with SeBos. Three Catalysts come in. The Trasher doesnt hesitate, locks a Catalyst and blows it out of the sky (As gank ships have absolutely no tank). Yes, the Thrasher may be lost, but the leftover Catalysts have no not enough DPS to crack a Mack so easily. And if the Catalysts are flown by -10 pilots, the Trasher is not even lost.
The question is now: Is the timeframe between out of warp and gank big enough for this? TBH probably not, lock times for most gank ships are less than 3 seconds so unless youve got other ships remote sensor boosting the thrasher you probably wont lock them before they can open fire. However it depends on the fit the ganker is using and what the ship is so give it a go and see. now, if the orca pilot (or thrasher, or someone else off grid) has shield ganglinks going ... it'll help the survivability of the macks (maybe a volley or two, if you're lucky). really depends on if your "defense gank" thrasher can target/pop the catalysts fast enough to handle the situation, and if the mining fleet is somewhere "safe" (i.e. not at the GD warp-in point). @ Henry -- Mack is shield tank ONLY ... and has paper thin armour/hull as it is (though a DCU would have helped for a volley)
A thrasher's dps is too little to destroy the catalysts before they do signficant damage. A Hurricane, Vaga, or Munnin is probably a better choice. A BS could too, assuming it gets a lock in time, and is setup to appropriately track the dessies.
The truth is, if they Mack actually has a tank (MSE, DCU, 2x IF), you have some time to save. If if doesn't... two catalysts can destroy it in under 10 seconds.
IMO, a blackbird, rook, or falcon would be the most effective counter... (You don't need to destroy them, you only need to stop them from shooting).
|
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
112
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 23:05:00 -
[38] - Quote
1) Tanking a mack is pointless. Putting more than a T1 extender is overkill for hi sec and will never save it from any decent gank.
2) Not putting expanders is also pointless since the huge loss in cargo space (unless in a gang) will more than overcome the paltry increase in tank. Ice blocks are big.
3) Stats on below 20 minutes are useless, some ships fill up in 18 minutes iirc. You can't imagine a regular human being torturing himself staring at a screen for a whole mining cycle. Most alt tab to the mining ship once they hear the lasers noise stop or put a stopwatch.
4) The "stay aligned" is also a dumb request. It might be worthwhile for mining roids since cycles are short, roids need to be changed often. But for ice mining you have 15 mins+ cycles and in 15 mins a ship will move 20-30 km. Unlike roids, if you stop ice miners you lose the whole block => several minutes so you must stay in range of the ice roid and not interrupt the lasers.
Therefore you either stand still (99% do this) or circle around ice (but then aligmnent is impossible, only happens once per turn).
5) Even if you had 10 BCs and battleships protecting you "BECAUSE EVE IS SOCIAL!" and gankers were -10, a cloaky can get close, gankers warp to him, lock and kill the mack before the gankers suffer any tangible loss.
Bottom line is: don't mine in systems close to low sec, check map for ship kills in last 24 hours, fit the ship CHEAPLY (fitting some deadspace mod makes you just a gank magnet) and plan to lose it sooner or later. It's a running cost, like for gankers losing their ships is a running cost. |
Taedrin
Kushan Industrial
313
|
Posted - 2012.01.12 23:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Um... Take action before dire need? That doesn't work. If a tanker plans to get you, they will scram or disrupt you. There is no warping. If you mean have time to run a booster, again they usually bring extra ships to compensate. 3 to 4 catalysts will beat a shield boosters.
Better to stay passively aligned to your warp out and run when people arrive at the belt if you are not afk.
As for hulk, remember, the Mack gains a 100% yield bonus for ice mining, but mines a tad slower. Still, for ice mining if you do not use a Mack, then you are hurting your profits more than a gank will.
As for cost... About 1000 units of ice equal 200 mil isk, which is about 21 hours solo mining and with no bonuses. That really is a day of bot mining for a single botting account. (a week if you have limited play time for a normal miner) you would have to kill over a ship per day to hurt their profit. Active repping (shield boosters) are typically much less efficient against a ganker assault than a buffer tank (Medium Shield Extender). But you do sacrifice your mining efficiency to fit a tank. A mack gains the bonus for ice yield, but a tanked mack has 20-25k EHP, where a tanked ice mining hulk has 35-45k EHP. These hulks would require more catalysts to bring down (my guess is 3-5 of Smodab's catalysts). From the targets perspective, they can overheat modules to try and survive longer. If your enemy is bringing 3-5 people, do you really think you should be able to thwart them as a solo entity? A group of 10 ice miners can feed all they want on the ice belt buffet, is it unreasonable for one of them to get into a combat vessel and defend the operation? Would you not PAY for such a service? This is NOT a solo game, and we should be able to adapt to the dangers around us!
The issue is that it would be economically irrational to pay a salary which is competitive with level 4 mission running. The only way to make it more competitive though is to (*gulp*) make ice mining hard enough so that it becomes valuable enough to pay for these services. |
Smodab Ongalot
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
45
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 00:23:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah
Lots of really really bad information here I would like to respond to. But the forum ate my well thought out and lengthy post and I can't be arsed to retype anything but the last line.
As this is the first time you've posted in one of my threads, I never understood why people despised you posting in their threads. Now I do. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
126
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 01:41:00 -
[41] - Quote
Taedrin wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Um... Take action before dire need? That doesn't work. If a tanker plans to get you, they will scram or disrupt you. There is no warping. If you mean have time to run a booster, again they usually bring extra ships to compensate. 3 to 4 catalysts will beat a shield boosters.
Better to stay passively aligned to your warp out and run when people arrive at the belt if you are not afk.
As for hulk, remember, the Mack gains a 100% yield bonus for ice mining, but mines a tad slower. Still, for ice mining if you do not use a Mack, then you are hurting your profits more than a gank will.
As for cost... About 1000 units of ice equal 200 mil isk, which is about 21 hours solo mining and with no bonuses. That really is a day of bot mining for a single botting account. (a week if you have limited play time for a normal miner) you would have to kill over a ship per day to hurt their profit. Active repping (shield boosters) are typically much less efficient against a ganker assault than a buffer tank (Medium Shield Extender). But you do sacrifice your mining efficiency to fit a tank. A mack gains the bonus for ice yield, but a tanked mack has 20-25k EHP, where a tanked ice mining hulk has 35-45k EHP. These hulks would require more catalysts to bring down (my guess is 3-5 of Smodab's catalysts). From the targets perspective, they can overheat modules to try and survive longer. If your enemy is bringing 3-5 people, do you really think you should be able to thwart them as a solo entity? A group of 10 ice miners can feed all they want on the ice belt buffet, is it unreasonable for one of them to get into a combat vessel and defend the operation? Would you not PAY for such a service? This is NOT a solo game, and we should be able to adapt to the dangers around us! The issue is that it would be economically irrational to pay a salary which is competitive with level 4 mission running. The only way to make it more competitive though is to (*gulp*) make ice mining hard enough so that it becomes valuable enough to pay for these services.
Your right, the benefits of training an orca alt provides amazing boosts to mining yield.... yet training up a blackbird or falcon alt is time consuming and unreasonable. I suppose one has tangible benefits, increasing the mining yield per hour. The other only benefits you if your attacked (and they're awake), or want to do something other than mine in your eve career. |
Lord Azeroth
Amarrian Retribution
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 02:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Good work this. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1201
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 03:51:00 -
[43] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:
Better to stay passively aligned to your warp out and run when people arrive at the belt if you are not afk.
.
I endorse this product and/or service  |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
605
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 05:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Quote:Better to stay passively aligned to your warp out and run when people arrive at the belt if you are not afk.
No such thing as "passive alignment". Either you're moving towards your warp-out at 75% of max velocity, or you're going to need time to get up to speed. Sitting at a dead-stop, it takes you an equal amount of time to warp off in any random direction of your choice. No matter which way the ship is pointing.
(As evidence - time an orca or freighter after a gate jump. See how long it takes them to get into warp towards the next gate, even if the gate is behind them.)
If you pair up your macks / covs / hulks and have them web each other, you get near instant warp-off capability. Even with all of them sitting at a dead stop. Or you can slow-boat towards your warp-out vector, but at a slower speed, giving you longer before you run out of laser range. This works especially well with covetors (who are best done as armor tanked with the mid-slot used for the web).
|
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 06:29:00 -
[45] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Quote:Better to stay passively aligned to your warp out and run when people arrive at the belt if you are not afk. No such thing as "passive alignment". Either you're moving towards your warp-out at 75% of max velocity, or you're going to need time to get up to speed. Sitting at a dead-stop, it takes you an equal amount of time to warp off in any random direction of your choice. No matter which way the ship is pointing. (As evidence - time an orca or freighter after a gate jump. See how long it takes them to get into warp towards the next gate, even if the gate is behind them.) If you pair up your macks / covs / hulks and have them web each other, you get near instant warp-off capability. Even with all of them sitting at a dead stop. Or you can slow-boat towards your warp-out vector, but at a slower speed, giving you longer before you run out of laser range. This works especially well with covetors (who are best done as armor tanked with the mid-slot used for the web).
He speaks the truth, at a full stop your velocity is zero, and since a zero vector can't have a direction, the direction your model faces has no bearing on align times.
tl;dr - Passive aligning is a LIE |
Arcathra
Technodyne Ltd.
118
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 08:07:00 -
[46] - Quote
Thanks for the numbers Smodab Ongalot. Looks like Bots are more common than I thought until now.
I don't know if we can count the people who stay about 10 minutes, but the ones who warp in their pod between belt and station are very obvious. Even if we only count them you have found that about 30% of the Ice Miners are bots. That's an alarming number. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
116
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 12:19:00 -
[47] - Quote
Smodab Ongalot wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
blah blah blah blah blah
Lots of really really bad information here I would like to respond to. But the forum ate my well thought out and lengthy post and I can't be arsed to retype anything but the last line.
If you can't respond to something you feel is bad information then don't respond at all.
My alts have intermittently mined everything in high and low sec, also in missions and anomalies for almost 4 years with only 1 loss due to disconnect.
And yours?
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Zifrian
Deep Space Innovations
177
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 12:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:Or maybe I feel you are not doing enough. Pod the bots, run locator agents to see where they have their clone bays and if they continue to undock in newbie ships, and keep podding them till they lose enough skill points that they can't fly their ships?
As much as I think highsec ganking is lame, I would pay for this LOL
Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour!
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
606
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 14:33:00 -
[49] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:
He speaks the truth, at a full stop your velocity is zero, and since a zero vector can't have a direction, the direction your model faces has no bearing on align times.
tl;dr - Passive aligning is a LIE
The even shorter TL;DR.
EVE Physics != Real Physics
|
Princess Nexxala
The Rock Hard Roosters
19
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 19:22:00 -
[50] - Quote
Praise Jesus!
*Tebows in your honor*
Smodab Ongalot wrote:
We are only doing God's work here, people.
Is sexy time? |
Deen Wispa
Screaming War Eagles Incorporated
70
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 19:52:00 -
[51] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:Praise Jesus!
*Tebows in your honor*
Well, I LOLed
. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
129
|
Posted - 2012.01.13 19:54:00 -
[52] - Quote
Smodab Ongalot wrote:Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Lots of really good stuff.
You sir, are a model of what every miner should be. Instead of just bitching and moaning about this, you've gone and worked on a counter to being ganked. Seriously, good work. This is all we really want, people to engage brain when playing. BTW, pithi and gisti small booster macks are really really hard to kill. I encourage these types of fittings. Medium extender fittings go down just as easy as any other ones. We killed prolly 15 just like this yesterday.
Thank you for the complements. I would like to bring to light that creating the guide was not my original idea. The founder of Griefer-geddon (A fighting-back resistance to Hulkageddon) asked for some of my expertise to create the guide.
Most of the credit belongs to Mechanoid Kryten!!! If there are any questions, comments, or criticisms of the tactics though, I'm here to address them.
|
Kay Alterman
Dead Girls Ninja Mining Corp
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 16:13:00 -
[53] - Quote
Smodab Ongalot wrote:We are only doing God's work here, people.
Why don't you try to communicate first? If you are sincere that seems to be the honorable thing to do. Of course, it would take most of the fun out of ganking all the honest miners. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
130
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 16:50:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kay Alterman wrote:Smodab Ongalot wrote:We are only doing God's work here, people. Why don't you try to communicate first? If you are sincere that seems to be the honorable thing to do. Of course, it would take most of the fun out of ganking all the honest miners.
They occasionally do, but it has never resulted in a miner "getting safe". While it's not posted in this thread, they mentioned it in their video thread.
Ride of the catalysts
|
Flurk Hellbron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 17:22:00 -
[55] - Quote
While I'm not playing this game for a long time, only 1year, I guess ice mining is about safe when I mine in a Mackinaw fitted for MINING and my alt in his Orca, orca with a BC in it's belly.
Overvieuw only shows Orca's in belt and other ships that are not Mackinaws. So only a few Orca's / Hulks / retriever and such.
If strange ship shows up in belt, stop mining, clear cargo and switch to BC in maintenance hold from Orca.
Ganker dessies won't even try. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
Une Pour Tous
61
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 20:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Smodab Ongalot wrote:If you are not a bot miner, then you should care because bots depress the value of the material you are mining. Doesn't it **** you off that someone else is stealing your income by breaking the rules of the game? If it does not, then please contact me IG. I have some faction ships for trade in station at a good price. Honest. 
I doubt honest miners sell their ore. They do it to fuel their corp's pos. Gotta be ret**ded to sell ice products at market. |
Esunisen
Les Tueurs de Killer
Une Pour Tous
61
|
Posted - 2012.01.14 20:51:00 -
[57] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:2) Not putting expanders is also pointless since the huge loss in cargo space (unless in a gang) will more than overcome the paltry increase in tank. Ice blocks are big.
Anyone using cargo expanders instead of mining upgrades deserve to be ganked. |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed
RED.Legion
1212
|
Posted - 2012.01.15 00:02:00 -
[58] - Quote
Esunisen wrote:Smodab Ongalot wrote:If you are not a bot miner, then you should care because bots depress the value of the material you are mining. Doesn't it **** you off that someone else is stealing your income by breaking the rules of the game? If it does not, then please contact me IG. I have some faction ships for trade in station at a good price. Honest. I doubt honest miners sell their ore. They do it to fuel their corp's pos. Gotta be ret**ded to sell ice products at market.
If it's too cheap to sell, it's too cheap not to buy.
Ice mining is the lazy multiboxer's paradise. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
10
|
Posted - 2012.01.15 02:38:00 -
[59] - Quote
CCP does not give a **** about bots.
Bots pay to play with PLEX like everyone else.
If you want CCP take action report them as RMT then they'll get off their greedy ass and look into the bottiing on that char. |
Skrymir Osiris
Sanguine Marauders
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 12:35:00 -
[60] - Quote
Yes, bots. We all hate and despise them.
But still, it would be gentlemen thing to do to anounce in local: "Icefield is about to be raided and everyone there shall be terminated. ETA 5 minutes, have a nice day!"
That should give enough time to real miners like me to organize the mining fleet to withdraw back to station with macs and orcas.
Most miners in my fleet usually watch TV while Ice mining but they however keep voicecoms open so I can yell them some orders.
There are real miners in the skies, industrialist who have chosen this way of life in New Eden.
I respect combat pilots, pvp and pve alike and in return I wait some respect back.
My pitifull 17mil skillpoints are all in non lethal skills. My only protection is tanking and medicore droneskills that keep the pirate factions away from my mining vessels.
Maybe we need organized cooperative effort in this from both real miners and combat pilots.. It's better than random suicide runs on random belts.
That way everyone wins on common goal. Well bots loose.... |
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