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Ange1
Gallente
The Establishment
Establishment
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Posted - 2007.08.07 14:45:00 -
[31]
Should you be ransomed by an Establishment pilot, you can be sure he will honour any ransom agreement if paid.
The Establishment is at your service...
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Mesper
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Posted - 2007.08.07 14:59:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Okkie2
You do get a message if you are invited to a gang which has somebody who is at war in it, but not if somebody is invited after you joined the gang.
And, in the vein of worsethanfailure.com, the real (W)orse (T)han (F)ailure is allowing someone to invite a mortal enemy into a gang. The second is allowing you to become a target because you decided to help some guy with a mission. These points always seem to be completely ignored, because there's a very vague warning message that might warn you that you can't be sociable in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, a "warning" message doesn't fix a broken mechanic.
If the "Warp To Zero" button on the overview crashed the client every single time you hit it, but you were given a warning message on login that some of the buttons on the overview might have odd results, would it be the fault of the designer or the player for a resulting client crash?
If you say the player, there's a disillusionment somewhere with that. 
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DarkElf
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.07 16:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Okkie2
Originally by: DarkElf
Originally by: Mesper
Originally by: Zenobite
A warning comes up EVEY time *snip*
Afraid not.
First broken mechanic: being able to invite people you're at war with to start off with.
Second broken mechanic: not being shown this is the case somehow, even in the overview in the form of blinky red.
Third (potentially) broken mechanic: After the group boss was able to invite an enemy to your group and after they opened fire before you knew you were a valid target, you are attacked for the equivalent of saying 'hi' to someone. Grouping != Corp alliance.
A warning message makes not a fixed mechanic.
My 2c.
edit: But that's neither here nor there for this thread. It's about these pirates who are hurting the ransom market for the rest of ya's. 
i'm afraid he is correct. go onto game, ask someone to invite you to a gang and read the message that comes up.
DE
I'm afraid he is not 
You do get a message if you are invited to a gang which has somebody who is at war in it, but not if somebody is invited after you joined the gang.
So after you've accepted the gang let the gangleader invite a war target and notice you don't see any message warning you about being in a gang with a war target....
ok i'm possibly wrong here but i don't think so.
if you are in game, ask someone to invite you to a gang and read the message that pops up. i'm sure it says something like "if the gang you join has war targets in then you will become a valid target". if the person already has war targets in the gang then the message is different but i'm sure you get a warning that it could happen every time you recieve an invite.
DE
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Agent Li
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Posted - 2007.08.07 16:43:00 -
[34]
At this rate, people will demand a warning before they undock:
"WARNING: Undocking can result in the loss of your ship, and it is possible that someone could be right outside the station, waiting to pod you and laugh at you. Are you sure you wish to continue?"
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"Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all." |
The Djego
Minmatar
FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP.
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.08.07 18:32:00 -
[35]
Any Pirate that is in a well know Pirate Corp will respect ransom, cause it is a standard rule at all the bigger Corps. I never blown a Ship up in case of the ransom was paied. I know one Pilote at our Corp that did. After i get the Name of the Victem i refunded him and telled that im sorry for that behavior. Well the Pilote had a not so nice 10 Mintues TS talk with me and I telled him if this happens again he will be kicked out of the Corp.
If a kill after ransom happens without refound, try to speek with the Ceo of that Corp or a Dipo usely they will be very interested in this.
Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
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Zenobite
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.08 00:17:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Mesper
Originally by: Okkie2
You do get a message if you are invited to a gang which has somebody who is at war in it, but not if somebody is invited after you joined the gang.
And, in the vein of worsethanfailure.com, the real (W)orse (T)han (F)ailure is allowing someone to invite a mortal enemy into a gang. The second is allowing you to become a target because you decided to help some guy with a mission. These points always seem to be completely ignored, because there's a very vague warning message that might warn you that you can't be sociable in a MMORPG.
Like I said before, a "warning" message doesn't fix a broken mechanic.
If the "Warp To Zero" button on the overview crashed the client every single time you hit it, but you were given a warning message on login that some of the buttons on the overview might have odd results, would it be the fault of the designer or the player for a resulting client crash?
If you say the player, there's a disillusionment somewhere with that.
Its not a broken mechanical, its a reminder EVE is not for the unwary. Why should the game make up for your lack situational awareness, you shouldn't need the game to tell you there are war targets in local, you should be looking for them the second you jump into a system.
Comparing this to an Eve bug is misleading, if fall for this old ,old trick its your own damn fault.
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Adelorae24
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.08.08 01:40:00 -
[37]
Why is it that there are always the 4 or 5 posts on this forum from crybabies looking for some sympathy because they got blown up in a video game.
And if they aren't annoying enough then you have the droves of those who run to show off what they know about how "real pirates" work... Blah blah blah... 
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.08.08 02:52:00 -
[38]
Ionhide ain't such a bad guy, but i wouldn't join a gang with him :D
Really, if all the CNR pilots would have been reading the forums over the last month or so they probably would have heard about this group of lofty gankers, heheh... I know I watched them take down at least one CNR, and the pilot promptly warned everyone in that system not to join a gang with them...
Can't say i've never thought about doing it myself, what eve player doesn't like seeing stuff go boom? 
____________________
Hi. I'm not an alt :) |
Mesper
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Posted - 2007.08.08 14:25:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Zenobite
Its not a broken [mechanic]....
Comparing this to an Eve bug is misleading....
It is a broken mechanic. Even if the developers of this fine game coded the gang aspect with this in mind, it would still be a broken mechanic, for the three reasons I've listed. Slapping a vague warning message on it and claiming that the game "is not for the unwary" does not excuse any of the three reasons, and the bug example I listed only served to illustrate how ridiculous it is to expect a warning message to magically make the problem fine.
If you honestly argue that everything is working as intended, then you simply like to set traps. That's fine--the game's designed for that. But a mechanic that brings a third party into the guns of two warring factions for doing nothing more than saying "Hi, there," is a broken mechanic, especially if it does not bring CONCORD retribution in high sec.
"This is a dangerous game" is not an excuse for sloppy design. Hence, the bug comparison.
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Zenobite
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.08.08 19:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mesper
Originally by: Zenobite
Its not a broken [mechanic]....
Comparing this to an Eve bug is misleading....
It is a broken mechanic. Even if the developers of this fine game coded the gang aspect with this in mind, it would still be a broken mechanic, for the three reasons I've listed. Slapping a vague warning message on it and claiming that the game "is not for the unwary" does not excuse any of the three reasons, and the bug example I listed only served to illustrate how ridiculous it is to expect a warning message to magically make the problem fine.
If you honestly argue that everything is working as intended, then you simply like to set traps. That's fine--the game's designed for that. But a mechanic that brings a third party into the guns of two warring factions for doing nothing more than saying "Hi, there," is a broken mechanic, especially if it does not bring CONCORD retribution in high sec.
"This is a dangerous game" is not an excuse for sloppy design. Hence, the bug comparison.
Whatever, if you accept gang from someone you don't know and there's war targets in local (can't complain you don't get warning on that)then you have to be a little bit slow.
In RL would you jump into a car of some random person just because they asked?? or would be that be a design flaw of the manufacturers for not putting a sticker on it saying: Warning may contain psycho.
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Dez Affinity
Caldari
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.08 19:45:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Zenobite
Originally by: Mesper
Originally by: Zenobite
Its not a broken [mechanic]....
Comparing this to an Eve bug is misleading....
It is a broken mechanic. Even if the developers of this fine game coded the gang aspect with this in mind, it would still be a broken mechanic, for the three reasons I've listed. Slapping a vague warning message on it and claiming that the game "is not for the unwary" does not excuse any of the three reasons, and the bug example I listed only served to illustrate how ridiculous it is to expect a warning message to magically make the problem fine.
If you honestly argue that everything is working as intended, then you simply like to set traps. That's fine--the game's designed for that. But a mechanic that brings a third party into the guns of two warring factions for doing nothing more than saying "Hi, there," is a broken mechanic, especially if it does not bring CONCORD retribution in high sec.
"This is a dangerous game" is not an excuse for sloppy design. Hence, the bug comparison.
Whatever, if you accept gang from someone you don't know and there's war targets in local (can't complain you don't get warning on that)then you have to be a little bit slow.
In RL would you jump into a car of some random person just because they asked?? or would be that be a design flaw of the manufacturers for not putting a sticker on it saying: Warning may contain psycho.
Err dude the tactic doesn't work like that. They are not war targets to you, but because you are in a gang that is at war with someone you are also succeptable to attack without intervention.
_______________
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.08 20:41:00 -
[42]
To point it (as most of the people that argue it is easily evitable seem not to have got it):
the starting gang members will not have a war active, the new member with a war active will be invited after the target is invited, possibly while jumping to the mission site, often counting on lag to make hard or impossible for him to notice the new member
So no warning pop-up of a member with an active war, no war target in system.
The only counter, beside refusing any request of help, is to always be the one issuing the gang offer.
As someone above pointed, EVE is a MMORPG where being friendly with other people don't pay.
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Mesper
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Posted - 2007.08.08 20:49:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zenobite
Whatever, if you accept gang from someone you don't know and there's war targets in local (can't complain you don't get warning on that)then you have to be a little bit slow.
I'm not talking about being attacked by someone if you join up with a bloke that's at war. I'm talking about the luffy123 broken ganging mechanic. I'm talking about how it's even possible to invite a guy to your gang, then invite a person that THE BOSS IS AT WAR WITH (broken) into that gang, allowing the third party to be attacked without receiving as much as a 'heads up, you're now a target' and no blinky red because of whatever delays between server and client--as reported by posts I've read (broken).
Not to mention inviting a WAR ENEMY INTO A GANG (broken) does not evoke any sort of truce (broken), as it would be sort of a given for ganging with a war enemy. Why else would you group with them?
Nine times out of then, popup warnings or error messages are simply bad design, from a user. Having to read pop-up gang mechanics every time you join a gang is bad design, borderline broken, for the exact reason that once you've read them fifty times you don't read them anymore. I'm not arguing for more warning messages to be plastered everywhere, the ones that are already in place are annoying enough; this is not even up for debate, as it's accepted in the software design community. I'm arguing for a little use of Occam's Razor.
Ad hominems are the resort of those who have no other argument, and I've not heard anything more than "you have to be dumb to fall for one of the most counter intuitive grouping designs known to man!"
The car example is a poor one to illustrate the situation. A more accurate example would be walking in a park that's hosting a police convention (high sec) and being asked to help train some dog right in front of the police (mission). While helping this guy train his dog, a second guy shows up and they both beat the ever living stuffing out of you while the police watch. This is because the dog owner and the new stranger are enemies, and they both want to take revenge on you because you're near the other. That make sense to you? It doesn't make sense to me.
Either way, I think I'm done with this topic. It's getting out of hand.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.09 16:39:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 09/08/2007 16:41:38
Originally by: Mesper
and no blinky red because of whatever delays between server and client--as reported by posts I've read (broken).
From what I have read, it is even worse, he is "no blinky red" because he is not an enemy of yours. He can start firing, you can't. Unless he start firing on you, you can't do anything hostile against him, as he is neutral with you while you are a valid target for him.
EDIT: originally, I think, it was done to avoid people from entering a gang with a war target and helping him indirectly (remote repping, cap transfer, ecc.) without being a valid target. As now remote repping and similar actions give aggro to the other party, if that was the original reason, it could even be removed.
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Adelorae24
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.08.10 01:28:00 -
[45]
Aarrgghh... Oh Noes!!! The mechanics are broken... The system is full of bugs!!!
You know I wouldn't pay 15 bucks a month for something that was so horribly flawed. The stability and design of this game is top notch, and personally I'm amazed that given it's complexity it works as well as it does.
Quit complaining, or quit playing the game. Either way the rest of us wont have to listen to it.
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Lynal
Gallente
Peregrin Avionics
Division of Eden
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Posted - 2007.08.11 12:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Andruw
the idea of paying a ransom is kinda absurd imho, in one of the most backstabbing games (apperently) on the net you're supposed to trust this pirate who wants to blow your ship up after giving him a heap of cash, that he wont take more cash?
It defies logic...
the logic is that pirating is a profession... i.e. the pirate is out to make money. if he gets a reputation for not honoring ransoms then people will stop paying them and he'll make less money.
thats the idea at least. unfortunatly there are fewer and fewer real pirates every day... and more and more children who just like to kill things (they're known as griefers in most mmo's). these children don't care about making money from pirating, so they don't care about honoring ransoms.
best bet... take a look around, find out who the real pirates are... and if anyone else but them demands a ransom from ya... just give em the finger.
Originally by: Daeva Vios
It's fair when the larger force is on my side.
It's lame when the larger force is on their side.
How have people not figured this out yet?
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:20:00 -
[47]
Sadly, whilst _some_ will ransom, the vast majority will just take full advantage.
IF you don't know they will, well, may as well assume they won't.
*shrug* sad really, but some people don't realise that in EVE, reputation is everything. You can be all manner of ebil yarring pirate, but ... well, holding your word when given, still ranks higher.
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Massa Farker
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:16:00 -
[48]
dear pirates,
discussing the matter will not save you your customers.
get off your scurvey asses (you salty seadogs, yarr and all)
and pod those two idiots, that didnt honour the ransom, repeatedly, back to
800k sp.
if the story is true, that is.
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Oupla
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:26:00 -
[49]
People not honoring ransom hurts the business.
Ok.
But people talking about not honoring ransom are doing much more damage.
Lets kill Vorte X!
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Massa Farker
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:28:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Oupla
People not honoring ransom hurts the business.
Ok.
But people talking about not honoring ransom are doing much more damage.
Lets kill Vorte X!
But people talking about killing people that are talking about people that dont honour ransoms hurts the business even more!
Kill Oupla
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Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
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Posted - 2007.08.12 16:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Vorte X
Anyway exploit or not.
It's not an exploit, because being at war with yourself is the most natural thing. CCP logic for you, the same that leads to that wonderfully reliable and fast code.
If you don't like it, unsubscribe.
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Dagejoor
Caldari
OcUK
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Posted - 2007.11.25 22:43:00 -
[52]
I've just been hit by these guys.
They are operating out of Isinokka in Lonetrek.
If only i had seen this sooner. or been paying attention.
Damn you sunday night.
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OcUK - Corp Recruitment Officer
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deathbyfire
Gallente
the united
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Posted - 2007.11.25 23:39:00 -
[53]
the united will always honor ransoms
hell if we accidentaly blow up the ship after the ransom has been paid we give the money back (it happens :P)
but then we will ransome the pod
-------------------------------
pie wins over cake 24 to 6 so says a "smart" GM
I offer a free implant removal service |
Stakhanov
The Good Fellas
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:08:00 -
[54]
Bleh... I was just thinking "long time since there was a dishonored ransom thread" only to find it's just a necro
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H Zub
Captain Morgan Society
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:11:00 -
[55]
Captain Morgan Society ransom any chance we get. Quite often the ransomed player is thankful we did. I think most people still honour ransom, but these idiots not doing so ruins it for all the rest. Brats is spaceships. |
skandalf
Gallente
Grail Seekers
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:17:00 -
[56]
peeps that demand a ransom then pod you anyway should hang their heads in shame they give us pirates a bad name and put peoples backs up then they refuse to pay ransoms in the future which is bad for all of us that try and have fun in this career path 
as other people have said most peeps that are trying to be succesful in their pirating careers will honour the ransom.
dont let these dafties put you off eve we arent all like that.
fly safe
skanny
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Shekat
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:36:00 -
[57]
You know...I read these forums a lot and i see people blurbing about ships lost and ransomes....
wtf if you are out and you get confronted by a pirate then kill him / her ..if you can't, then take the podding you are owed...Cook or get out the kitchen...
Theres no excuse for being ganked these days as if anyone was paying attention then you would know that they were coming 3 jumps out ...or that there was a camp next gate thanks to a good scout...
and everybody knows about the logon tricks by now so theres no excuse...never consider a pilot as alone in eve...
Hats off to pirates tho, as they do teach noobs to be more vigilant and purge eve of those who will not learn to look in local...
Ransoming is lame but actually paying it is lamer...
FIGHT FOR YOUR RIGHT TO FLY WHERE THE FXXX YOU WANT!!!!
pirate = theiving, untrustworthy and greedy...
eve pirate should be the same..if you can ransom your victims and they are cowardly, to the point of paying up... then fair play for exposing these people...
Then pod the idiot as they should not be flying any ship if they cant keep it in one peice..(especially try to pod those who do not put up a fight)
isk farmers, kill them all and loot all cans, ransom daily they are worse than eve pirates or even eve "punks".
Rant over... we now return to your regular scheduled smack talk.....Thankyou! come again!...
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General Coochie
New Justice
Minuit.
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Posted - 2007.11.26 00:46:00 -
[58]
Tell me how ransoming is lame? Its a win win situation both for the pirate and the victim as long as as the ransom is honored.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Sig originally by Kel Solaar
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Zarz Dragonclaw
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Posted - 2007.11.26 13:30:00 -
[59]
What if you don't HAVE the money to pay the ransom, will a pirate still kill you?
Cause, I would much rather pay the ransom. However...I'm poor. lol
Of course, I'm not in any systems under .6, but I might when I get my first mining barge.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.11.26 13:50:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Zarz Dragonclaw
What if you don't HAVE the money to pay the ransom, will a pirate still kill you?
Cause, I would much rather pay the ransom. However...I'm poor. lol
Of course, I'm not in any systems under .6, but I might when I get my first mining barge.
Well 0.6 and 0.5 is still considered highsec. Though you can be suicide ganked.
SKUNK
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