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Murkelost
Swedish Aerospace Inc
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.09 20:43:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Murkelost on 09/08/2007 20:49:21
Long story short, Falcon sucks!
Why? Because the Rook has 10 percent more bonus to
jamming strenght per level than the Falcon.
Now, if we compare the Falcon and Rook with gallente
recons, the arazu and lachesis share the same
dampen and scramble bonuses in percentage amount.
Why isn't this the issue between Falcon and Rook?
Imo the Falcon is the better Recon ship of Caldari,
which the capability of warping cloaked is the
reason why. So I would like to have the same bonuses
to it as the Rook has.
The Falcon current status renders it useless (for jamming) and lame to fly so please adjust, and give it some damage bonuses on missiles as well.
Just my 2 cents...
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.09 21:12:00 -
[2]
Sorry, of the two, I rate the Falcon higher. They're different tools for different jobs.
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Waxau
Mortis Angelus
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Posted - 2007.08.09 22:22:00 -
[3]
if you actually think the falcon sucks, then you dont know how or when to fly it. It could use a slight boost, possibly - but dude - its by far not useless...
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Murkelost
Swedish Aerospace Inc
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.10 02:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Murkelost on 10/08/2007 02:53:29
 Originally by: Waxau
if you actually think the falcon sucks, then you dont know how or when to fly it. It could use a slight boost, possibly - but dude - its by far not useless...
There are some useful areas yes, but let me put it
this way, why buy a fancy sportscar if it hasn't got
what it takes compared to an average family slowboat 
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo |
Murkelost
Swedish Aerospace Inc
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.10 03:00:00 -
[5]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Sorry, of the two, I rate the Falcon higher. They're different tools for different jobs.
Interesting point indeed, the Falcon can do stuff the
Rook can't yeah, but still it bothers me that it sucks
for pvp jamming 
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo |
Kaben
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Posted - 2007.08.10 06:33:00 -
[6]
In responce to the current nos nerf, which has very little to do with this, but I had very little sympathy for pilgrims and I have very little for this. A force recon is not a combat recon, read the ships description. If you want a combat recon, get the rook, if you want tactical advancement, infiltration and cap ship deployment then this is the right ship for you.
Description of the force recon on the ships description.
Force recon ships are the cruiser-class equivalent of covert ops frigates. While not as resilient as combat recon ships, they are nonetheless able to do their job as reconaissance vessels very effectively, due in no small part to their ability to interface with covert ops cloaking devices and set up cynosural fields for incoming capital ships.
note: it says they are nonetheless able to do their job as a reconaissance vessel very effectively, no where does it state anything about combat except in the second sentence which says they aren't as resilient as combat recons.
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Lord Loom
Loom Service
Derek Knows Us
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Posted - 2007.08.10 09:31:00 -
[7]
if anything it's the Rook that sucks - yeah it's strong, but for that it gives up all tank and gank, not what I'd imagine a Combat Recon to be, and even less so compared to the other three in the class
and all comparisons to Gallente are flawed, we all know they're "balanced"
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KEEP TRY!!!
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Solbright altaltalt
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.08.10 10:15:00 -
[8]
All other recons have equal EW strengths. The Falcon is the only one that is reduced. The diff between the combat and force recons are generally in other areas like PG, hardpoints/highslots, damage, resists, speed, targeting range are all boosted a little in the combat version ... and the force recon gets those bonus coverts.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:26:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Solbright altaltalt
All other recons have equal EW strengths. The Falcon is the only one that is reduced.
Wrong. You might want to compare the pilgrim & the curse. The first is missing a rather essential bonus.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:03:00 -
[10]
A rook does powerful jamming, cruiser grade DPS.
A falcon does _fairly_ powerful jamming, and covops cloaking. (And LOLtastic DPS)
I don't see this as a huge issue. I'd still _like_ to see all the ECM ships get an extra 5% jamming power, but I'm not sure I see a need why the Rook and the Falcon have to be the same jamming strength. The falcon, after all, does have an extra lowslot for SDAs.
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Inflexible
InNova Tech Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Murkelost
Now, if we compare the Falcon and Rook with gallente recons, the arazu and lachesis share the same
dampen and scramble bonuses in percentage amount.
It's problem with gallente recons, not caldari ones imo.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 02:27:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Solbright altaltalt
All other recons have equal EW strengths. The Falcon is the only one that is reduced.
Wrong. You might want to compare the pilgrim & the curse. The first is missing a rather essential bonus.
The strengths are both 20% bonus for the Pilgrim and the Curse.
The Curse also gets a range bonus but that's a second bonus, the Rook's second bonus is kinetic damage.
We are discussing the value of the primary recon EW bonus.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 10:07:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Solbright altaltalt
The strengths are both 20% bonus for the Pilgrim and the Curse.
The Curse also gets a range bonus but that's a second bonus, the Rook's second bonus is kinetic damage.
We are discussing the value of the primary recon EW bonus.
The EW range is the primary bonus. Nos strength is more the equivalent to the dps bonuses.
Range has a far greater effect than strength here since it makes the difference between operating in web range and operating outside scram range.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 10:32:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aramendel
Range has a far greater effect than strength here since it makes the difference between operating in web range and operating outside scram range.
Fair call, range is important, and jamming boats would be useless without their range bonuses, but it's still not the EW strength. Maybe I should have kept the definition to strength.
My original statement is more correct - "All other recons have equal EW strengths. The Falcon is the only one that is reduced."
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 11:18:00 -
[15]
With that argumentation bot the gallente and minmatar recons are underpowered because they got compared to their t1 version no EW strength bonus. Only range.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 11:42:00 -
[16]
I'd be open to that idea. :)
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 11:56:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/08/2007 11:56:53
The point is the EW range bonus IS a strength bonus. No, it does not literary increase the strength of the recons EW, however it increases the range where it is effective, which is in many cases much more important. And as result in general increases the efficiency of the recon.
Comparing only a single stat is a fallacy, you need to compare *everything*.
I would agree though that the rapier and arazu loose compared to the pilgrim and falcon less from their combat -> force recon conversion.
Still the problem is that caldari recons are more or less purely specialized on ECM. Only loosing its dps is no real penality for them.
The gal & minnie recons have at least partly also a dps role, so loosing dps is hurting them more.
And as mentioned already the falcon has one more low for SDAs which is boosting its EW somewhat. Compared to the rook with both ships having all lows filled with SDA it has 83% of its efficiency, that isn't that big a price to pay for cloaking.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 12:30:00 -
[18]
Range is vital for ECM fleet work. ECM is not really useful for solo work.
That is no so for the other EWs. If a recon dampener had that sort of range then fleets would all consist of Lachesises. First to get all their damps spread wins the round.
Although, painters are not so devastating as the other EW, giving the Huginn and Rapier more range would be a good idea.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 12:33:00 -
[19]
And range is in no way the strength!
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 14:42:00 -
[20]
You miss the point. I am not talking about damp, TD or TP range.
But about the range bonus of nosses, scram and webs. A minmatar recon with a web strength instead range bonus would be utterly pointless for example.
The range bonus for those is very much part of the ships EW strength. A pilgrim is significantly weaker due to no range bonus.
Hell, even if ou ignore that, it has compared to the curse only 60% of the available slots for nosses & neuts. Even if it had identical bonuses it would still be 40% weaker than it due to that. The falcon has as many available slots for ECM as the rook.
To repeat myself, you are only looking at one single stat and get due to that very wrong results. The falcon is very much not the only recon which has reduced *effective* EW strength.
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Solbright altaltalt
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Posted - 2007.08.11 15:17:00 -
[21]
Fair enough. I've made my points. I'll leave it at that.
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Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.11 15:44:00 -
[22]
Originally by: James Lyrus
A rook does powerful jamming, cruiser grade DPS.
A falcon does _fairly_ powerful jamming, and covops cloaking. (And LOLtastic DPS)
I don't see this as a huge issue. I'd still _like_ to see all the ECM ships get an extra 5% jamming power, but I'm not sure I see a need why the Rook and the Falcon have to be the same jamming strength. The falcon, after all, does have an extra lowslot for SDAs.
The extra low slot is practically meaningless since you can put a jamming strength rig on the rook.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 22:00:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/08/2007 21:59:52
Originally by: Blood Cultist
The extra low slot is practically meaningless since you can put a jamming strength rig on the rook.
Which has instead 20% only 10% base strength. And stacks with SDAs.
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Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.11 22:30:00 -
[24]
Rook: 2 SDA IIs, 1 Particle dispersion augmentor, relevant skills maxed
Strength on a T2 racial: 12.57/4.19/4.19/4.19
T2 Multispec: 8.38
Falcon with 3 SDAs:
T2 racial: 10.59/3.53/3.53/3.53
t2 multispec: 7.062
The extra low for a SDA II on the falcon doesn't come close to closing the gap in jamming strength between the two created by the rook's stronger bonus.
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.11 22:47:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Aramendel on 11/08/2007 22:47:11
Originally by: Blood Cultist
The extra low for a SDA II on the falcon doesn't come close to closing the gap in jamming strength between the two created by the rook's stronger bonus.
And I claimed it did where exactly?
Originally by: Aramendel
...And as mentioned already the falcon has one more low for SDAs which is boosting its EW somewhat. Compared to the rook with both ships having all lows filled with SDA it has 83% of its efficiency, that isn't that big a price to pay for cloaking.
So, lets see.
But firstly, your numbers are wrong and you are also using a rig with the rook but none with the flacon. Correct comparsion:
Rook multi is: 2.4 * 2 * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.174 * 1.057 -> 8.934
Falcon multi is: 2.4 * 1.5 * 1.25 * 1.2 * 1.174 * 1.114* 1.028 -> 7.26
7.26 / 8.934 -> 0.813 -> 81.3% Which is pretty near to what I said.
T2 Multispec rook: 8.38
t2 multispec falcon: 7.062
7.062/8.38 -> 0.813 or 81.3%..almost exactly like I said. And that is with using a rig on the rook and none on the falcon.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.11 23:14:00 -
[26]
It needs 20% bonus to jamming strength not 10%
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Jehovah Cooper
Convergent
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.11 23:48:00 -
[27]
Sorry Murk but I haven't seen anyone point out yet one of the Falcon's great strengths. It can jam at fleet BS range and cloak right after starting a jam cycle, making it almost impossible for enemy BS to ever target it and it is out of range of support. This isn't practical with other ewar due to the cycle times. If it had the same strength as the Rook plus this ability it would be overpowered.
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Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.12 00:29:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Aramendel
And I claimed it did where exactly?
It is a statement of fact. This thread is not about you.
Speaking of facts, here is another: the force recons all lose one of their combat recon equivalent's bonuses which is replaced by the cloak CPU use bonus. The remaining bonus which is determined by the recon ships skill is the same for both recons of each race, except the Rook and Falcon. The falcon gets a bonus half as strong.
Originally by: Aramendel
...And as mentioned already the falcon has one more low for SDAs which is boosting its EW somewhat. Compared to the rook with both ships having all lows filled with SDA it has 83% of its efficiency, that isn't that big a price to pay for cloaking.
So, lets see.
Quote:
But firstly, your numbers are wrong and you are also using a rig with the rook but none with the flacon. (...)
They are corrected.
Quote:
And that is with using a rig on the rook and none on the falcon.
I used the same number of jamming strength affecting mods.
Set up for full jamming strength the numbers are:
Rook T2 Multi: 9.18
Faclon T2 Multi: 7.31
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.12 08:51:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Aramendel on 12/08/2007 08:51:15
Originally by: Blood Cultist
Speaking of facts, here is another: the force recons all lose one of their combat recon equivalent's bonuses which is replaced by the cloak CPU use bonus. The remaining bonus which is determined by the recon ships skill is the same for both recons of each race, except the Rook and Falcon. The falcon gets a bonus half as strong.
As I said already in this thread this is ignoring a few things:
- the gallente and minmatar recons are more dps based than the caldari ones. Loosing that dps is effecting them a good deal more than the rook loosings its dps. And, as said, the falcon has more slots available for ECM mods, so if it had the same bonus it would be *stronger* than the rook.
I would agree however that the arazu and rapier loose less than the other recons for their cloak varsions.
- the pilgrim looses a good deal more than the falcon. Firstly it looses its rangeb onus which means it has to operate in web distance and secondly even if you ignore that it has only 60% of the nos/neutpower of the curse, simply because it has less free slots for them.
A ships performance is not a single stat.
Quote:
They are corrected.
Your racial numbers for the rook are still wrong.
Quote:
I used the same number of jamming strength affecting mods.
Fallacy. The 3 lows for the falcon is an advantage of it, just as the bigger ship bonus is an advantage of the rook.
Ignoring that and not using his ability to fit 1 more SDA in addition to 2 SDAs and a rig is like ignoring the rooks higher bonus. It is a weak attempt of manipulating numbers in your favor and no equal comparsion.
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Luna Nilaya
Ultrapolite Socialites
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.12 12:29:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aramendel
Fallacy. The 3 lows for the falcon is an advantage of it, just as the bigger ship bonus is an advantage of the rook.
Ignoring that and not using his ability to fit 1 more SDA in addition to 2 SDAs and a rig is like ignoring the rooks higher bonus. It is a weak attempt of manipulating numbers in your favor and no equal comparsion.
I'm using 1600mm plate in the third low slot.
It has saved my Falcon couple of times already.
3x SDA and the rig doesn't propably add almost any strenght to your ECM's because of being heavily penalized.
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