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Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.10 21:57:00 - [1] Ok, here's my argument: Ogre I need and benefit from(damage-wise) heavy drone operation, drone interfacing Garde I(gallente sentry drone) benefit from sentry drone interface and drone interfacing Ogre II need and benefit from heavy drone operation, drone interfacing, and gallente drone specialization Garde II benefit from sentry drone interface and drone interfacing..... wait a second...something is missing. CCP please fix. It only makes sense and it should be simple. Also don't forget to make gallente drone specilization part of the requirements too. Of course this problem is far all the t2 sentry drones. Discuss. Dons flame ****ent gear
Guillame Herschel Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.08.10 22:55:00 - [2] That would be a foolish consistency. You also forgot Combat Drone skill, which affects them all too. I'll pass on the needless timesink. -- Guile can always trump hardware --
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.08.10 23:38:00 - [3] You are not asking for even more damage on sentries, are you?
Ararius e X i l e FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.11 04:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Guillame Herschel You also forgot Combat Drone skill, which affects them all too. I'll pass on the needless timesink. Combat Drone only affects Lights and Medium Drones fyi Originally by: Alski It depends how much CCP learn from past user interface mistakes, i'm sure they'll do very well, but if not i'll be right clicking on random people and selecting "Orbit at 0.5m"
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.08.11 07:59:00 - [5] You are not asking for even more damage on sentries, are you? Yes since when do T2 weapons not get a damage boost from the T2 skill for that weapon? In fact since when can you train T2 weapons without needing a T2 skill. T2 sentry drones are way to easy to train for. Passive shield tanking guide click here
Katashi Ishizuka	Posted - 2007.08.11 08:11:00 - [6] You know what IS consistent? The EM sentry drone being the worst of the lot. I can't think of a single conceivable use for any of the EM drones.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves	Posted - 2007.08.11 08:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Katashi I**uka You know what IS consistent? The EM sentry drone being the worst of the lot. I can't think of a single conceivable use for any of the EM drones. I don't know where you are getting your input from, but in my book the EM sentries are the second best if not the best (due to gardes rather limited range)... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kalmiston Julmio	Posted - 2007.08.11 10:07:00 - [8] The OP is right and please give as T2 Omnidirectional Tracking Links as well.
Severa Crest	Posted - 2007.08.11 10:12:00 - [9] T2 sentry damage is already balanced, so reduce damage by 10% then you can have the standard 2% per level for spec skills.
RedeyeAce	Posted - 2007.08.11 12:22:00 - [10] Hiya, To the OP, ive tried a post like this before. The general concensus is that as sentry Drones do not fly to their target and only have the lock on time b4 they start firing. You will gain more dps in b4 the ogres would of reached their target. That plus the Sentries being the only drone with an available rig for Damage. However I must say i wholeheartedly agree the t2 variant should comply with all other t2 variant weapons as that is what they are. I personally dont see why you should have to rig them to get the same benefit when there are already cons to the units themselves. Hell just my 2p's worth Red
Jai Cee Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:30:00 - [11] What really is annoying is that for drones long range skill you have to train a separate rank 5 skill from the rank 5 skill for the short range drones. It would have been better imho to have Heavy 5 and Sentry 4 as the skill requisites for T2 sentries or alternatively make it a rank 4 skill for parity with missiles.
Lydia Browm Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.11 13:34:00 - [12] seeing as there already bonused, why not make a brand new skill that just adds 2% damage to Sentry Drones as a whole but leave the drones as they are, make it a rank 1 skill but leave the drones as they are but a skill that specifically give them a bonus and a skill that specifically gives Fighters a bonus also :). ___________________________________________ Cookies if you hijack or sign my sig. There tasty...
RedeyeAce	Posted - 2007.08.11 14:19:00 - [13] Ace Idea Lydia, That way people will have to specialise in it. I have no problem with that if thats the comprismise
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.08.11 17:15:00 - [14] Edited by: Shiken Kan on 11/08/2007 17:16:59 erm i honestly don't see the point in buffing sentries. their damage is 2nd best in the drone category just after heavy drones, though their advantages can make up for that. (always around you, no problems with the aggro etc.) also don't forget that you can use warden 2 as a sniper setup and when they then get an additional damagebonus they might be a bit too strong for a sniper. as for the training time, t2 sentries require sentry drone operation 5, so the difference would only be marginal if they required another skill that itself requires that skill. /edit oh and plz don't make other nonrelated droneskills a requirement for a new skill, as it would make it impossible to specialize in sentries without having to skill every other drone there is.
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.12 10:14:00 - [15] The "benefit" of sentry drones is not really a benefit...more like just another way to do things. Ok it's nice they don't have to fly to target, only need to lock on and start firing, etc. But don't forget that they stay still, which means they are easy-pie to hit. Garde's have a limited range, which means if something moves outside that range, they aren't hitting, nor do they follow. Sentry drones have bad tracking compared to heavy drones, that means if something is fast enough and/or has high enough transversal velocity, they aren't going to get hit much. The cons even the pros, just like the cons of heavy drones even the pros. That shouldn't exclude something from working correctly. T2 weapons should act like t2 weapons period. T2 weapons should also have t2 requirements. And having another specialization skill would be pointless. Garde = Gallente drones like Ogres = gallente drones. Specializing in gallente drones should make you specialized in all gallente drones. This goes the same for the other races drones, of course. I'm not asking for more sentry drone damage. I'm asking for t2 sentry drones to act like other t2 weaponry. Fin
DarkXenon	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:19:00 - [16] Originally by: Pottsey You are not asking for even more damage on sentries, are you? Yes since when do T2 weapons not get a damage boost from the T2 skill for that weapon? In fact since when can you train T2 weapons without needing a T2 skill. T2 sentry drones are way to easy to train for. I agree, make them require Drone Interfacing 5 aswell!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:44:00 - [17] Just to add something to this thread. Going form T1 to T2, heavy drones get -more speed -better tracking -more damage. So they get there faster, hit more often and hit harder. Sentry drones get -better range -more damage. They do not get better tracking. So they hit harder and a little further out, but won't hit any more often then T1. As stated in OP, the damage increase is also less then that for heavies. Having racial specialization reqs and benefits only makes sense. So even if that is implemented, T2 versions still offer less advantages over T1 counterparts then a similar step up in heavy drones does.
Washell Olivaw	Posted - 2007.08.12 14:47:00 - [18] Sentry drones get a dmg rig, none of the other drones do... Hey, we've achieve balance Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
Selia Rain	Posted - 2007.08.12 18:47:00 - [19] A T2 weapons system that doesn't require a specialization skill is a bit under thought, methinks. Even if the damage needed to be dropped a bit to compensate(say, 20% less dps, and 5% per level of adv sentry interfacing?), you should need a spec skill to use T2 sentries. Alternately to damage(covered by a rig?), the spec skill could potentially buff tracking, optimal, or even falloff(meh).
Gawain Hill	Posted - 2007.08.12 21:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Katashi I**uka You know what IS consistent? The EM sentry drone being the worst of the lot. I can't think of a single conceivable use for any of the EM drones. that's easy... it's to take out the shields of armor tanked ships :D
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.08.13 08:24:00 - [21] Edited by: Qui Shon on 13/08/2007 08:29:29 Originally by: Washell Olivaw Sentry drones get a dmg rig, none of the other drones do... Hey, we've achieve balance Mm, so to achieve parity with Heavies, I, sentry user, have to give up 200 calibration, 10% of my cpu, one rig slot and 15mil isk or so. Balance? Oh wait, I still can't achieve parity, even relative T1->T2, because there is no tracking rig for drones.
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.14 10:32:00 - [22] Here is more information I figured out about the sentry drones/drones Ogre I 1.6 x 1.25(Heavy drone Op 5)= 2 2 x 2(Drone Interface 5)= 4 2 sec rof 4(dmg mod)/2(rof) = 2 2x 24(therm dmg) = 48 dps Garde I 1.6 x 1.25(Sentry Drone Op 5)= 2 2 x 2(Drone Int 5) = 4 4 sec rof 4(dmg mod)/4(rof) = 1 1x50(therm dmg) = 50 dps Ogre II 1.92 x 1.25(Heavy Drone Op 5)= 2.4 2.4 x 1.1(Gallente drone Spec) = 2.64 2.64 x 2(Drone Int 5) = 5.28 dmg mod 2 sec rof 5.28(dmg)/2(rof) = 2.64 2.64x 24(therm dam) = 63.36 dps Garde II 1.92 x 1.25(Sentry Drone Spec 5) = 2.4 2.4 x 2(Drone Int 5) = 4.8 dmg mod 4 sec rof 4.8(dmg)/4(rof) = 1.2 1.2x 50(therm dmg) = 60 dps And here is the corrected/fixed Garde II stats Garde II(fixed) 1.92 x 1.25(Sentry Drone Spec 5) = 2.4 2.4 x 1.10 (Gallente Drone Spec 5) = 2.64 2.64 x 2(Drone Int 5) = 5.28 dmg mod 4 sec rof 5.28(dmg)/4(rof) = 1.32 1.32x 50(therm dam) = 66 dps This points out the inconsistency more. T1 Sentry drones do more damage than T1 Heavy drones, but T2 Heavy drones do more damage then T2 Sentry Drones. Obviously broken. Everyone keeps blurting out "Well sentry drones don't have to travel to the target blah blah". That's one of the few benefits it has over the heavy drones(besides slightly more damage). Sentry drones have VASTLY inferior tracking, less range over all(so what heavies need to travel the whole 45+km to get to the target, at least they can hit that far once they get there). Let's not forget no transveral velocity, which is very important to keep drones alive, and a signature resolution more than 3 times greater than heavy drones. You know what that means? Yup...that sentry drone is taking full damage from that torpedo. Sure it has increased hp values...but not 3x more. That's another argument for another day. Let's not forget that sentry drones don't move...this means if you are playing the primary drone race(Gallente), which also double as the up-close-and-personal race, then you are leaving your sentries behind to get picked off while you chase your target and hit them with your blasters. And then once you off your target, you have to go pick them up. So before you mention the so called "benefits" of sentry drones, look at the whole picture. So Like I said. Sentry drones aren't overall stronger than heavy drones(actually a little weaker in their broken state), just another way to do things. With that said: T2 Drones of all types should work just like other T2 weaponry. XXX racial drone specialization skill should benefit t2 sentry drones just like they benefit t2 heavy/medium/small drones. Fin
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.14 10:51:00 - [23] Originally by: Washell Olivaw Sentry drones get a dmg rig, none of the other drones do... Hey, we've achieve balance Ah it's wonderful you brought that up!! Sentry drones do get a damage rig, and the other drones don't. Actually, I do see a turret damage rig, a turret tracking increase rig, a turret rate of fire rig, a turret optimal increase rig, a turret falloff increase rig... Oooh let's look deeper shall we! I also see a +3%/+5% medium energy weapon damage implant, and the same for small/large projectile/hybrid.. and a +3%/+5% small/medium/heavy/sentry drone implant too! Oh wait... If I look deeper I also see a module durability rank 3 skill, that increases the hp of your turret/missile bays because they can be shot at and destroyed....oh look! there's an undo drone humping rank 5 skill too! I'm training that one up right away! Hey I just found some T2/faction ammo that I can load into my hobgoblin II that increases the damage output even more than the t2 drone itself plus skills increase it by already. Oh yes...we have balance alright. But I'm not even asking for rigs/implants or special ammo ...i'm just asking for an inconsistency to be made....consistent. End.
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.14 11:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Tensa Ah it's wonderful you brought that up!! Sentry drones do get a damage rig, and the other drones don't. Actually, I do see a turret damage rig, a turret tracking increase rig, a turret rate of fire rig, a turret optimal increase rig, a turret falloff increase rig... Oooh let's look deeper shall we! I also see a +3%/+5% medium energy weapon damage implant, and the same for small/large projectile/hybrid.. and a +3%/+5% small/medium/heavy/sentry drone implant too! Oh wait... See, now you're bringing in other weapon systems that are COMPLETELY incomparable. Stay at drones, or you've already lost the thread on an epic scale my friend. Thing is, t2 sentries dash out as much as 538 dps. If they were to recieve the drone spec bonus, that'd be 592 dps, and you'd still have drones that are very very hard to kill and field no travelling time. I'd say they are very well balanced as is. Post count: 136384
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:01:00 - [25] Edited by: Tensa on 14/08/2007 15:09:39 Edited by: Tensa on 14/08/2007 15:07:41 You saying they are balanced doesn't mean they aren't broken. And where do you get your 538 dps from? From my calculations I got 60 dps x 5 drones = 300 dps from Garde II. If they were fixed that would be 66 dps x 5 drones which would be 330 dps. Besides, dps isn't the argument here. I don't care if it was 1000 dps or 2 dps...the fact is that I have a gallente drone spec skill that is useless when using t2 gallente sentry drones when it shouldn't be. The fact is that t1 sentrys do slightly more dps then t1 heavy drones, but t2 sentry drones do less damage than t2 heavy drones. Broken is broken is broken. Also you say those sentry drones are hard to kill. Let me bring up another inconsistency for you then. Did you know that t2 drones do not get t2 resistances? They have paper thin t1 resistances just like a t1 cruiser. Unmodifiable. What's even worse is they are as easy to hit as megathrons... sitting still... with the hp of a cruiser. But I look passed all that. I'm not asking for alot for sentry drones. All I'm asking is that a glaring inconsistency be fixed.
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:04:00 - [26] Originally by: Tensa You saying they are balanced doesn't mean they aren't broken. And where do you get your 538 dps from? From my calculations I got 60 dps x 5 drones = 300 dps from Garde II. If they were fixed that would be 66 dps x 5 drones which would be 330 dps. Besides, dps isn't the argument here. I don't care if it was 1000 dps or 2 dps...the fact is that I have a gallente drone spec skill that is useless when using t2 gallente sentry drones, when it shouldn't be. The fact is that t1 sentrys do slightly more dps then t1 heavy drones, but t2 sentry drones do less damage than t2 heavy drones. Broken is broken is broken. 1. Spec skill is not required for sentries nor is it really related in any way? 2. 300 * 1.5(ship bonus) * 1.1 * (0.1 * 0.87 +1) = 538 3. And yes, balance is more important than consistency Post count: 252535
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:25:00 - [27] 1. You must have totally missed my original post. I said that spec skill should be used for t2 specialized drones. To spell it out: t2 light drones benefit from spec skill, t2 medium drones benefit from spec skill, t2 heavy drones benefit from spec skill, t2 railguns benefit from spec skill, t2 blasters benefit from spec skill, t2 missiles benefit from spec skill, t2 lasers benefit from spec skill, t2 projectiles benefit from spec skill....guess what t2 weapon system doesn't benefit from spec skills? 2. Pull your brain-train off your one-track into more than just the Dps train station...It's not all about dps. There's other things that can help, such as increased drone rate of fire, increased drone speed, increased drone tracking per level, etc. Dps helps noone if you can't hit anything. Besides, those "drone ships" have split bonuses most of the time. I'd like to fly a dominix without the drone bonus and with it's hybrid damage bonus and a rate of fire bonus. Ah but then it wouldn't be a drone ship! it loses it's single weapon focus in favor of a dual weapon focus(and last time i checked, people didn't like that). 3. Please explain how fixing sentry drones would disrupt balance. I've already explained why it should be fixed...now you explain why it shouldn't instead of resorting to simple one-liners. It's not like i'm talking about nos or anything.
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:35:00 - [28] Fair enough, decrease the damage multiplier of all t2 sentries by some 9.1% and make it a required skill, everyone's happy? Post count: 868096
Tensa	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:45:00 - [29] Typical If DPS was a hot girl you'd be a horny 11th grader. But ok. I'll take your 9.1% dps decrease and raise you a corrected t1 to t2 tracking increase(because, t1 drones have tracking, then t2 drones have better tracking then their t1 counterparts...oh except for t2 sentry drones. But i'm not even bringing that up)
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.08.14 16:01:00 - [30] maybe you should include in your inconsistencies that drones are the only weapons not requiring a slot and on top of that drone bays aren't exactly evenly distributed between the different races' ships. then you can start ranting about not having a 5% damage implant and not having damage rigs for drones. now if gallente were one of the weaker races one might say, ok give em more stuff for the sake of consistency, but you want to buff one of the strongest (if not the strongest) race and just wave nonahs considerations that this would have an effect on balancing. sentries already are strong enough and i'd say if it ain't broken don't fix it.

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