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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 15:56:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Elmicker on 13/08/2007 15:56:54
or...
Give us the ability to find and kill cloakers?
Solves the problem, and will satisfy both sides. The "they're killing our infrastructure" side, and the "lol, you're pussies, they're only cloakers" side.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 16:24:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Taurequis
Would make the game a billion times better.
The entire basis of the problem behind AFK cloakers is the potential threat of an unidentified hostile in system. Removing local would take that potential threat from 1 UFO to infinity. Sounds interesting and fun, but its not.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:10:00 -
[3]
Why shouldn't local be an intel tool?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:04:00 -
[4]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Because in space...no one can here you whinge.
So? Last time i checked, space wasn't filled with oil, either.
Originally by: JeanPierre
You nailed it. Carebears in 0.0 with sad panda eyes that they are not 100% safe and have a "threat" in total PVP undefended space.
The problem is not that the space is undefended, but rather that the space MUST be defended. You cannot defend against AFK cloakers, who are untouchable. Let us kill them, and we'll be happy. Allow them to be probed.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:21:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Elmicker on 13/08/2007 23:21:48
Originally by: JeanPierre
It's 0.0 space. Who in the name of holy Joe told you that there existed a time when there was no "MUST" to defending it?
When there's no hostiles visible within several jumps and no planned ops to strike at the enemy. There's nothing to defend against then, so at those times, its generally considered safe enough to utilise your space and make some money.
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It's not your Own Personal Stormwind.
The sovereignty marker in the top left of the screen says otherwise.
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because they're not attacking you.
So i should wait for them to attack something before defending the space we've invested billion into?
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You can go about your business
No you can't, because then he comes back again the next day, you all see him in local, thinking "Ah, he's only a harmless AFK cloaker" and go about your ratting. Then, 15 seconds later, an astarte lands next to your ratting raven and tears you to pieces. As long as you do not have 100% reliable identification and 100% reliable location information, he poses the same potential threat 100% of the time.
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you work in teams and be ready for the worst.
And what? have 2 people ratting and 15 people sitting 100km away waiting to see if anything happens? Please, you have no idea how badly this concept of workers/defenders works.
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Adapt to the concept
I'd rather just kill him.
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stop crying because you can't discover the simply solution to counter the game mechanic e.g. - team work.
There is no solution. AFK cloakers, as a rule, do not decloak.
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and you're all huddled up inside the station in fear of undocking,
Nah, generally there's 8-10 of us in PvP ships waiting for a probe result, generally going ":|. can't find anything, where the **** is he?"
Your entire post again, makes me wonder whether you've ever been a 0.0 resident for any length of time yourself, or whether you just like assuming people who're asking for a way to kill an annoyance are carebears.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:37:00 -
[6]
Originally by: JeanPierre
You just stated above that they did, that's why they're a threat.
No i didn't  . Complacency around AFK cloakers is the threat, and you seem to not realise this. For the safety of all involved in the system, you must always assume and plan around the worst case scenario - that he is in a fully equipped combat ship (chances are, he is, recons are common as much most of the time), and that you must form up a defense gang to combat him. You agree with me thus far - you're always on about working as a team and crap like that.
However, for some reason, you think it is acceptable for some people to carry on ratting and mining with a hostile in system while others are in a defense gang. This is nothing less than freeloading, and will spell death for the alliance through nonparticipation and bad blood between those who do turn up for defense gangs, and those who don't.
Though, of course, being ex-ASCN, you'd know all about that.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Regaul Kinath
u dont know how to counter it
Alright then, tell us how, oh great spelling and grammar master. 
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:49:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Elmicker on 13/08/2007 23:50:31
Originally by: JeanPierre
(nor have you shown me where there are guarantees).
Having trusted eyes in several systems around is guarantee enough for me
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He's not fully equipped, he has a gimped hi slot
Pilgrim vs. solo BS. Most entertaining to watch.
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You've never spent much time in 0.1-0.4 have you?
Yes, but i don't see what that's got to do with anything? Nullsec and lowsec are different universes. Different combat styles entirely.
You had some suggestion about paying people or something here, so ludicrous i couldn't be bothered to undo deleting it after i highlighted a bit too much.
Originally by: SiJira
it has already been said like 100 times
Assume i only learned to read about 15 minutes ago. Enlighten me as to how you find and kill a hostile sitting multiple AU from any celestial object who cannot be scanned or probed.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.13 23:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Regaul Kinath
Just think whats gona happen when u are able to scan cloaking ships,
My suggestion was that they're probable, but not scannable. A compromise that allows recons and cov. opses to continue to operate unhindered, assuming their pilot isn't AFK, but also takes care of the cloaking ratting BS problem many people have.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 00:13:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 00:14:27
Originally by: JeanPierre
You've only one person in your system then? Great. It deserves to go down.
A pilgrim could easily, with the aid of rats, kill a hostile BS and be re-cloaked and safe before any help arrives. The same goes for any number of ships.
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You assume a Safe 0.0 Playing Experience and are mad that you're not getting what you expect.
Wait, wait, because i'm assuming that the neutral i see in local is automatically dangerous, i'm assuming a safe experience? 
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Yeah you should never cut in the guys who guard the system while you hold a mining op. What was I thinking? That is ludicrous! Totally!
There wouldn't be a mining op with an AFK cloaker in system, so the point of payment is moot. The situation is most commonly solo ratting and mining, where paying someone to defend you justy isn't going to happen.
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Be prepared to defend yourselves at all times
Do you have any idea how boring that is? I play this game for enjoyment, not to sit around for 23 hours a day on the off chance he might uncloak. I'd rather just assume he's dangerous and leave the system. Unfortunately, he's just as able to move systems as i am, and he attains his objectives just by being in local, to attain my objectives, i have to put myself at great risk by aggressing rats or sitting still in a belt, this is a large imbalance. Anyone else out to disrupt ratting and mining is at great risk just by being in a hostile system - AFK cloakers are 100% invincible, 100% of the time.
Anyway, do you have any arguments as to why AFK cloakers shouldn't be probable? All you've done so far is argued over their effects.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 01:28:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Curzon Dax
remember that they are afk
Except you don't know this.
Let me ask you all this:
Would you rat/mine with a hostile pilot in local?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 01:31:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 01:32:36
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
stuff
And? I've already admitted in this thread i haven't been a regular resident of conquerable 0.0 in several months. I've also admitted in other threads that i myself have used the AFK cloaking tactic. Just because i don't score 30+ solo kills a day doesn't mean i'm any less qualified to talk about the subject. I have no stake in the outcome of the debate, but i have extensive experience of the situation (living 5 jumps from a hostile outpost for 4 months does this for you). If anything, that puts me in an excellent position to talk about this.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 02:02:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 02:03:41
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Its not about the kills. Its about your fear and lack of any effort beyond starting and posting
I haven't started any threads on the subject, i post in them, since that's the point of the forum. Again i'd like to ask what effort you suggest i put in against cloakers? You know, since they're cloaked and literally impossible to find...
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in useless threads crying for game adjustments that affect EVERYONE to suit YOU.
You've already pointed out that I'm an Arazu pilot and that i don't live in conquered 0.0, so how is this the case? If anything, my proposed change of making cloakers probable hinders me to suit others. I haven't cried, i've attempted to stay civil throughout, and the only one who has cried and resorted to personal insults and shouting is you (except maybe for my ASCN comment, but the guy agreed with me on that one  )
Also, my proposed change does not affect everyone. It affects those who are AFK and cloaked, as it would be ridiculously easy to avoid being probed while cloaked.
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If you have no stake...why do you care?
Because i feel the ability to go AFK and be 100% invincible is overpowered and needs changing to make 0.0 a more competative and fun environment.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 02:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Superbus Maximus
I think ccp should just nerf everything that is useful for small gang warfare it makes the game more fun right?
What has small gang warfare got to do with AFK cloaking?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 02:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Superbus Maximus
Quite a bit actually, considering most people use use the tactic because they are heavily outnumbered and it gives them the ability to pick and choose their fights.
Fair enough. But is it fair that a pilot should be able to go AFK (and become absolutely invulnerable) while doing so? A pilot who is active and warping around, picking and choosing fights is in my mind, a legitimate player, but someone sitting still and unable to be found, is not. Why shouldn't the other side (in this case the one with numbers) be able to use their numbers and time advantage to probe and decloak them?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 02:48:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 02:48:05
Originally by: Superbus Maximus
Why not just be patient in baiting him into a fight he thinks he can win and then use your numbers? If you do this to him several times he probably will think of something new or just not do it to you anymore.
While possible, this is incredibly difficult to do. AFK cloakers will probably have been there several days and will know the normal behaivours. Then, if you've killed them, there's nothing to stop them slipping in again and then never decloaking, though the potential to decloak and attack still exists, more so than before as he's attacked in the past.
I'd much rather probe them out and kill them than arsing about with overcomplex traps to overcome an inbalanced game mechanic. More fun for all those involved.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 03:06:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Superbus Maximus
It is so much more fun when you plan something out and succeed in doing then just massing up a ass load of people and killing everything that pops into your overview.
My suggestion would require extensive planning and teamwork.
If you can probe, but not scan cloakers, then you must start at the longest-range probes you have. If you factor in extra added difficulty for probing a cloaked ship, you're talking high innaccuracy and a good chance of not finding them. Thus, only those with the patience to persist will succeed.
Even if you do manage to scan them, you'll have to organise your gangmates to sweep an area ~30-40KM around you, again, favouring those with the time and persistence to do so.
I'm not proposing an insta-probe decloak tool, but rather a method to combat ships that shouldn't be fitting cloaks (ratting BSes) and ships that go AFK while cloaked.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 04:50:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 04:53:24
Originally by: Kirex
If someone who is AFK scares you so much, why don't you just change systems?
Or what about setting a trap for him?
Yay for barely skimming a thread and posting a response without thinking.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 11:22:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/08/2007 11:22:48
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
Link and details please. All I see is speculation and suggestions.
Linkage
It was subsequently delayed and there's been a distinct lack of mention since.
on your other suggestions..
An AFK timer will never happen. It is not up to CCP to dictate how or when you play the game that you pay for. It also brings the metagame into the game, something i'd hate to see happen.
Eliminating cloaks from all non-dedicated ships has too much of an impact on too many setups, and would require a massive rebalancing effort, probably resulting in more bugs and balance issues than we could collectively imagine.
Allowing difficult probing of the cloakers is honestly the best solution.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 11:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone
As you keep pointing out...AFK is not playing is it? And what do you mean regarding metagaming? I take metagaming to mean using OOG methods to gain an edge. How is this relavent?
No, i meant dictating ingame activity based on out of game factor and vice versa. This is metagaming. It brings in a factor that isn't part of the game mechanics, but rather real life. The game should, as much as is possible for an MMO, be removed from real life.
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What setups? The WCS and cloak-geared Raven? . Its a simple fix.
Haulers, nanoships, snipers, BE Ravens, cloaked combat recons, cloaked T1 cyno frigs etc.
There's more than you'd think. I have absolutely no opposition to creative use of cloaks, and cloaks on any other fits. I encourage it and i want to see more. I think theyre brilliant modules. The only thing i have a problem with is people abusing the protection they give to act as a psychological influence via local chat.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:38:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
the server boots inactive clients (I see it all the time).
No it doesn't.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.15 18:59:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I see my Cov ops alt getting booted all the time if it's sat cloaked at a safe spot - less than 1 hour of inactivity and it's gone. If however, I'm doing something with it, no problems at all.
Odd that, isn't it? I've sat AFK in space for up to 23 hours at a time.
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b) You're relying on second hand information from others, prone to Chinese whispers and general *******s.
If you dont trust the intelligence provided from your alliance mates, why on earth are you even considering fighting for/with them? Alliances are built on trust.
Aside from that, its usually easy to tell once they've been in local for the 6th day running and they've been there for every second you've been there.
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