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Ore Compression: the Solution

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Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:31:00 - [1] Make a rule for all titan mods that says they can only be fitted to titans... Adjust the size of high end ratio mods to bring their compression ratios down... Introduce an actual viable method to compression: I.E being able to compress MINERALS (not ore) in station with compression bpos and make the time significant 10:1 ratio should be more than enough. Make it take a couple of weeks. Guess what problem solved. No vast consquences like CCPs solution... took 2 min to think up.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:33:00 - [2] mineral compression was never meant to be an option in the game unlike local CCP has decided to fix it right away ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:35:00 - [3] Edited by: Riley Craven on 17/08/2007 22:39:03 Originally by: SiJira mineral compression was never meant to be an option in the game unlike local CCP has decided to fix it right away You realize how many things dont belong in game that they still havent fixed... jet cans anyone???? your joking right... I mean mineral compression a long with local has been in game since its inception... what the heck is your definition of right away? So do you have a real comment to make or you just flaming as usual?
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:41:00 - [4] Originally by: SiJira unlike local CCP has decided to fix it right away Mineral compression has been in eve since release. Intended or not, a change now is not fixing it "right away". The devblog is misleading in claiming the real problem is with jump portal generators etc. If it was, they would simply be made impossible to fit on inappropriate ships, as the OP suggested. That would fix the problem stated in the devblog immediately with no negative repercussions. The devs have just decided that mineral compression itself is no longer going to be allowed and are changing it. I have yet to see a good reason posted by a dev that doesn't have an easier and better solution with less negative impacts on gameplay. Also, consider that even jump portal generators are only twice as compact as ice miners and four times as compact as tractor beams. Tractor beams are actually the usual item used for compression and they're carried in carriers. This isn't about capital modules. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:46:00 - [5] when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:50:00 - [6] Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Have you looked up the stats on ore compression? It's not even comparable to the compression rate of some current really basic mineral-compression modules. They're essentially absolishing mineral transport by compression, which is fine if they would give a proper reason for it rather than this capital module nonsense. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:58:00 - [7] Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Ok first.. do you even know what your talking about? The Ore ship cant go to empire... (thats where all the low ends come from for all the people that dont know) so that means before you can even use it, ORE (not minerals) has to be shipped to lowsec FIRST THEN.... you have to sit in the ship for 30 hours to compress all that ore.... You getting the picture yet or do I need to paint one the size of a small moon for you to get that this change WILL NOT make Eve a better place
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:59:00 - [8] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Have you looked up the stats on ore compression? It's not even comparable to the compression rate of some current really basic mineral-compression modules. They're essentially absolishing mineral transport by compression, which is fine if they would give a proper reason for it rather than this capital module nonsense. the proper reason is that all the good cheap minerals come from empire and CCP wants us to make our own empires in 0.0 as they have been making everything go in that direction since before i was born ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
SiJira	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:59:00 - [9] Originally by: Riley Craven Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Ok first.. do you even know what your talking about? The Ore ship cant go to empire... (thats where all the low ends come from for all the people that dont know) so that means before you can even use it, ORE (not minerals) has to be shipped to lowsec FIRST THEN.... you have to sit in the ship for 30 hours to compress all that ore.... You getting the picture yet or do I need to paint one the size of a small moon for you to get that this change WILL NOT make Eve a better place yes it will maybe some people might start taking mining seriously in 0.0 ____ __ ________ _sig below_ devs and gms cant modify my sig if they tried! _lies above_ CCP Morpheus was here Morpheus Fails. You need colors!! -Kaemonn
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 23:08:00 - [10] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Have you looked up the stats on ore compression? It's not even comparable to the compression rate of some current really basic mineral-compression modules. They're essentially absolishing mineral transport by compression, which is fine if they would give a proper reason for it rather than this capital module nonsense. the proper reason is that all the good cheap minerals come from empire and CCP wants us to make our own empires in 0.0 as they have been making everything go in that direction since before i was born there is a reason all the good cheap ore comes from empire... its called macro miners...
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.17 23:11:00 - [11] Originally by: SiJira Originally by: Riley Craven Originally by: SiJira when the fix comes out if they make it unviable to use the current method of mineral compression then the ore compression will have a better use than just for miners and the game will be much better in general Ok first.. do you even know what your talking about? The Ore ship cant go to empire... (thats where all the low ends come from for all the people that dont know) so that means before you can even use it, ORE (not minerals) has to be shipped to lowsec FIRST THEN.... you have to sit in the ship for 30 hours to compress all that ore.... You getting the picture yet or do I need to paint one the size of a small moon for you to get that this change WILL NOT make Eve a better place yes it will maybe some people might start taking mining seriously in 0.0 See I think you have just failed to realize one simple point... people will not sit around doing work thats earning them pennies. All the current change would mean is that trit is 20% more expensive in 0.0, nothing more, nothing less. You like CCP seemed to think this will fix all your problems... everyone else is just pointing fingers and laughing.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.17 23:43:00 - [12] Originally by: Nyphur Mineral compression has been in eve since release. Intended or not, a change now is not fixing it "right away". The devblog is misleading in claiming the real problem is with jump portal generators etc. If it was, they would simply be made impossible to fit on inappropriate ships, as the OP suggested. That would fix the problem stated in the devblog immediately with no negative repercussions. The devs have just decided that mineral compression itself is no longer going to be allowed and are changing it. I have yet to see a good reason posted by a dev that doesn't have an easier and better solution with less negative impacts on gameplay. Also, consider that even jump portal generators are only twice as compact as ice miners and four times as compact as tractor beams. Tractor beams are actually the usual item used for compression and they're carried in carriers. This isn't about capital modules. Several things are different. - Ore compression has gotten progressively more efficient. - Travel through 0.0 has gotten far simpler with jump portals. Back in the day you could compress to an extent but you still had to drive it up in a hauler. There was a chance your enemies could intercept that shipment and haulers die easily. A lot more mins in a hauler via compression means more eggs in one basket if it gets dropped. Up to the player to weigh the risk vs. benefits and that was interesting. Now who cares? Pretty much teleport the things up. And saying ice miners are merely only half as good as JPG or tractor beams 1/4 as good minimizes the impact. You have to run twice as many production lines to equal one JPG or four times as many with tractors. That is not an insignificant change. Go back two years and you had even less comparable levels of compression available. Due to mineral compression I have recently seen a 0.0 corp toss all its indistrialist types out save a few builders. They want to focus on the pew pew stuff and see no need for them. With mineral compression and jump portals they can easily move all they need with one freighter. They do not need miners or haulers anymore for the most part (true story...just talked to a friend of mine who was tossed along with all the other indie types). This leaves EVE to nothing but cap ship blob warfare. How can you interdict supply lines today? You can't really. I think EVE is a less interesting place for it.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Riley Craven on 18/08/2007 00:02:24 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Several things are different. - Ore compression has gotten progressively more efficient. - Travel through 0.0 has gotten far simpler with jump portals. Back in the day you could compress to an extent but you still had to drive it up in a hauler. There was a chance your enemies could intercept that shipment and haulers die easily. A lot more mins in a hauler via compression means more eggs in one basket if it gets dropped. Up to the player to weigh the risk vs. benefits and that was interesting. Now who cares? Pretty much teleport the things up. And saying ice miners are merely only half as good as JPG or tractor beams 1/4 as good minimizes the impact. You have to run twice as many production lines to equal one JPG or four times as many with tractors. That is not an insignificant change. Go back two years and you had even less comparable levels of compression available. Due to mineral compression I have recently seen a 0.0 corp toss all its indistrialist types out save a few builders. They want to focus on the pew pew stuff and see no need for them. With mineral compression and jump portals they can easily move all they need with one freighter. They do not need miners or haulers anymore for the most part (true story...just talked to a friend of mine who was tossed along with all the other indie types). This leaves EVE to nothing but cap ship blob warfare. How can you interdict supply lines today? You can't really. I think EVE is a less interesting place for it. You are right ore compression has gotten better... answer nerf it to cover ratios that make since... simple really. As for your point about haulers/ vs carriers, it is an arguement... not one I find valid mind you but one none the less. See the thing is you cant just right off the differences between carriers and haulers as simple just the ability to jump things around... Why? Because EVERYTHING in eve has a cost. Carries Take 150-200 days to train properly (cost over 2 bill with skills and build cost, not to mention cap ship bpos etc) Use fuel to get to any destination *just got a gsc nerf need logistics to support their logistics ability Haulers take 30-50 days to train properly (assuming crappy attribs) (cost 1 -3 million in skills and build cost) Dont cost anything to move around Can use Gsc dont need extra special support ot use. Again your JPG arguement is not valid because EVERYONE agress as stated a million times already that its broken... your like a broken record in that regard. Your point about your friend getting kicked... might I offer a side arguement. First if you really think about, all this does is make people have an incentive to build CAP ships in empire or Low sec where they dont need to compress mins... so in that regard compression has nothing to do with your friend getting kicked. Secondly, you will still have people jumping things down in carriers, it wont be compressed stuff, it will be mods and ammo instead. Sam difference really nothing changes. Your right you cant interdict supply lines now, but that wont change with this nerf.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:01:00 - [14] can someone point me to where the devs said they will globally reduce the amount of minerals returned by reprocessing modules? the latest dev blog was rather vague and did not say they will be doing that. he also said they will consider offering additional alternatives for mineral compression, such as low-end mining bonuses on exhumers. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Alora Venoda can someone point me to where the devs said they will globally reduce the amount of minerals returned by reprocessing modules? the latest dev blog was rather vague and did not say they will be doing that. he also said they will consider offering additional alternatives for mineral compression, such as low-end mining bonuses on exhumers. They didnt, they said they would nerf the top 120 mods 20%. The problem is that it affects alot of other people that dont compress things like mission runners and ratters. The release of this change has been held to Rev 3. They could make it 3 times more efficient to mine low ends in 0.0 than in empire and it still wouldnt be enough to make people stop mining highs selling them and buy lows compress them and send them to empire...
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h - Ore compression has gotten progressively more efficient. - Travel through 0.0 has gotten far simpler with jump portals. While the first point is true, the second is not. Jump portals are restricted to alliances with titans or high levels of soverignty along the entire route they're jumping. They are not a tool for the small guy in 0.0 while mineral compression is. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Back in the day you could compress to an extent but you still had to drive it up in a hauler. There was a chance your enemies could intercept that shipment and haulers die easily. A lot more mins in a hauler via compression means more eggs in one basket if it gets dropped. Up to the player to weigh the risk vs. benefits and that was interesting. Now who cares? Pretty much teleport the things up. Due to mineral compression I have recently seen a 0.0 corp toss all its indistrialist types out save a few builders. They want to focus on the pew pew stuff and see no need for them. With mineral compression and jump portals they can easily move all they need with one freighter. They do not need miners or haulers anymore for the most part (true story...just talked to a friend of mine who was tossed along with all the other indie types). I actually agree with you on pretty much all of your points. I also want mining in 0.0 to be the primary source of minerals and production to be localised. Jump drives mostly ruined localisation of industry in lowsec and 0.0 and I'm not really pleased with it. However, none of your points have been brought up by developers. They're still following the usual path of giving no reasons or inadequate/irrelevant reasons and so I'm questioning the motive behind the change, not the change itself. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:07:00 - [17] Originally by: Riley Craven Originally by: Alora Venoda can someone point me to where the devs said they will globally reduce the amount of minerals returned by reprocessing modules? the latest dev blog was rather vague and did not say they will be doing that. he also said they will consider offering additional alternatives for mineral compression, such as low-end mining bonuses on exhumers. They didnt, they said they would nerf the top 120 mods 20%. The problem is that it affects alot of other people that dont compress things like mission runners and ratters. The release of this change has been held to Rev 3. Do you have a link to where these numbers were given by a CCP employee? I see many posts about it, but it's not in the devblog, and is therefore only a rumor. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:36:00 - [18] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Imperator Jora'h - Ore compression has gotten progressively more efficient. - Travel through 0.0 has gotten far simpler with jump portals. While the first point is true, the second is not. Jump portals are restricted to alliances with titans or high levels of soverignty along the entire route they're jumping. They are not a tool for the small guy in 0.0 while mineral compression is. My fault for restricting it to just jump portals. With carriers cynoing around the effect is nearly the same and carriers are pretty ubiquitous among 0.0 resident corps. With proper compression and a bit of cleverness a carrier can move many freighters worth of mins.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:38:00 - [19] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 18/08/2007 00:39:05 Originally by: Alora Venoda Do you have a link to where these numbers were given by a CCP employee? I see many posts about it, but it's not in the devblog, and is therefore only a rumor. Not answering for him but I came a little late to the Dev Blog and subsequent responses from players. By trying to piece together some quotes players responded with it looks like the Dev Blog was altered (re-written) after the fact. However the numbers being put here are what many did in the response section and no one was gainsaying any of it. Of course now CCP has a few months to work on this what the final outcome will be is anyone's guess.
Alora Venoda Caldari GalTech	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 18/08/2007 00:39:05 Originally by: Alora Venoda Do you have a link to where these numbers were given by a CCP employee? I see many posts about it, but it's not in the devblog, and is therefore only a rumor. Not answering for him but I came a little late to the Dev Blog and subsequent responses from players. By trying to piece together some quotes players responded with it looks like the Dev Blog was altered (re-written) after the fact. However the numbers being put here are what many did in the response section and no one was gainsaying any of it. Of course now CCP has a few months to work on this what the final outcome will be is anyone's guess. okay, it is as i suspected then. this means CCP understands the weight of the issue and we should get a more balanced fix in the end. i don't really see any problem with reducing reprocessing results on certain items, as long as they are the types of item you can only build yourself. then the mission runners would not be affected. in general, i agree that if i build something i should indeed get less back if i then un-build it. ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ Take away the risk and it would make flying around in space utterly pointless. Take away the flying around part and you make EVE into a space themed spreadsheet application.
Elmicker The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.08.18 00:49:00 - [21] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h it looks like the Dev Blog was altered (re-written) after the fact. you're correct. Essentially, at first, it read "We're nerfing compression ASAP. Screw you and your 20billion ISK worth of minerals currently stored as JPGs".
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.18 01:00:00 - [22] Originally by: Riley Craven As for your point about haulers/ vs carriers, it is an arguement... not one I find valid mind you but one none the less. See the thing is you cant just right off the differences between carriers and haulers as simple just the ability to jump things around... Why? Because EVERYTHING in eve has a cost. Carries Take 150-200 days to train properly (cost over 2 bill with skills and build cost, not to mention cap ship bpos etc) Use fuel to get to any destination just got a gsc nerf need logistics to support their logistics ability Haulers take 30-50 days to train properly (assuming crappy attribs) (cost 1 -3 million in skills and build cost) Dont cost anything to move around Can use Gsc dont need extra special support ot use. This is not really a fair comparison. Carriers are not meant to be haulers. I'd find it vaguely insulting as a carrier pilot to be relegated to hauler duties. Carriers have substantial uses outside of hauling. All haulers do is haul (the rare Battle Badger aside). Added to that a freighter costs nearly as much as a carrier (sans fittings which of course a freighter has none). As for the cost of cynoing a carrier around well...obviously it is a good trade. If it wasn't people would not do it. The reality is, costs included, carrier "hauling" is extremely common. I have to wonder if hauling Ops with guards and all trying to drive several freighters into 0.0 even happens anymore at all. Quote:* Your point about your friend getting kicked... might I offer a side arguement. First if you really think about, all this does is make people have an incentive to build CAP ships in empire or Low sec where they dont need to compress mins... so in that regard compression has nothing to do with your friend getting kicked. I did not mean to imply that ore compression is what got him (and all of them) kicked. Ore compression is just one straw in the pile of the general malaise CCP has let industry get to in EVE.
Nicholas Barker MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service	Posted - 2007.08.18 01:08:00 - [23] Originally by: SiJira the proper reason is that all the good cheap minerals come from empire and CCP wants us to make our own empires in 0.0 as they have been making everything go in that direction since before i was born but now it means people will want to fly to empire even more to fit their ships then fly'em down into 0.0 because it'll drive up prices of modules out there. ---
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.18 02:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h This is not really a fair comparison. Carriers are not meant to be haulers. I'd find it vaguely insulting as a carrier pilot to be relegated to hauler duties. Carriers have substantial uses outside of hauling. All haulers do is haul (the rare Battle Badger aside). Added to that a freighter costs nearly as much as a carrier (sans fittings which of course a freighter has none). As for the cost of cynoing a carrier around well...obviously it is a good trade. If it wasn't people would not do it. The reality is, costs included, carrier "hauling" is extremely common. I have to wonder if hauling Ops with guards and all trying to drive several freighters into 0.0 even happens anymore at all. Quote: Your point about your friend getting kicked... might I offer a side arguement. First if you really think about, all this does is make people have an incentive to build CAP ships in empire or Low sec where they dont need to compress mins... so in that regard compression has nothing to do with your friend getting kicked. I did not mean to imply that ore compression is what got him (and all of them) kicked. Ore compression is just one straw in the pile of the general malaise CCP has let industry get to in EVE. You may have a point with carriers... but I have one as well. This was a raging debate in another section of this forum when the GSC nerf came out... the premise was, what is really the point of carriers? See the problem of eve is that it doesnt really matter what the point of a ship really is, because in the end it comes down to what a ship is best at. So what are carriers good at currently... the arguement was not much actually.. except hauling. See the thing is with all the recent carrier nerfs lately they dont really serve as good fighting platforms (unless you are talking about VERY specific situations aka cap ship scramblers) Not only that they dont make very good logistics ships either (aka healers) now you add all that together with what a carrier can do and you get a capatial hauler. Case and point the destroyer... was it might to be used as a salvage ship... not a chance... but its the best one out there... The rohk wasnt meant to be used as a miner... but hell it did even better than the hulk in certain situations... My point is that it doesnt matter how you try to justify it, in the end it was it is. You may find it insulting but you cant really fight the truth. True freighters build cost is the same roughly, but neither the skill investment, nor the industrail investment is the same, and in that regard the carrier is light years ahead of a freighter in cost, add to that the freighter is incredibably easy to kill. (p.s. large freighter ops do happen, I had the pleasure to particpate in a couple of them (12 freighters or more), and they happened because of pos fuel, not minerals) Now I agree that alot of stuff is killing the playability of Eve, but this particular change doesnt serve to fix that imbalance. All it really does is screw over the people on the sidelines minding their own business. Now Id be up for just about anything reducing the effectiveness of compression... AS LONG AS IT DOESNT HURT REFINERS. There I said it. That is ALL I care about.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.18 02:44:00 - [25] Originally by: Nyphur I also want mining in 0.0 to be the primary source of minerals and production to be localised. Jump drives mostly ruined localisation of industry in lowsec and 0.0 and I'm not really pleased with it. However, none of your points have been brought up by developers. They're still following the usual path of giving no reasons or inadequate/irrelevant reasons and so I'm questioning the motive behind the change, not the change itself. See I could agree with this as well... just as long as refining what little minerals I get from loot drops doesnt change. I think maybe the difference is that I am not fighting the reason just how they are going about the change... which as usual has no regard for the playerbase in General. In fact most things change in game rarely affect their intended target the way CCP wants it do... why because they dont think things out through clearly. For all their arguements that they need to play the game to keep it playable, I am not sure they actually do.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.08.18 03:16:00 - [26] Originally by: Riley Craven See I could agree with this as well... just as long as refining what little minerals I get from loot drops doesnt change. I think maybe the difference is that I am not fighting the reason just how they are going about the change... which as usual has no regard for the playerbase in General. In fact most things change in game rarely affect their intended target the way CCP wants it do... why because they dont think things out through clearly. For all their arguements that they need to play the game to keep it playable, I am not sure they actually do. You're going to hate me for this... I think loot refining should be drastically nerfed. Part of the decline in industry comes from removing some sharp lines on who does what in EVE. Loot drops drastically nerf the industrialists job. First off there is so much crud loot that many, many modules just are not built. People get loads of them in drops. Second so much of the loot drops are crap that I'd guess 95% of it is melted down putting a significant dent in the mineral market. I'm all for leaving named loot drops as they are but the crud should be scaled back. Note that as a mission runner myself I definitely benefit from the way things are. Today me and two mates did a little pickup mining op (three Hulks with perfect bonus from skills, ALT hauler support and T2 mining drones all around). We netted about 3 million/hour mining in hi sec. If I do a mission I beat that handily. The mission reward alone covers it. Add in bounties and loot and salvage and there is no comparison. More to the point the amount of mins I get from all that (missioning) is not inconsiderable. Certainly I get more mins mining but the difference is not as much as you think and I get some hi ends from loot that I never get from mining in hi sec. Bottom line is the lines in EVE should be drawn more sharply. Most minerals should come from miners. Most mods should come from builders. This would then expand mineral markets and traders moving stuff around. I do not think the loss of loot refines from missioning is too much. They are already massively profitable even without that.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.18 03:35:00 - [27] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Riley Craven See I could agree with this as well... just as long as refining what little minerals I get from loot drops doesnt change. I think maybe the difference is that I am not fighting the reason just how they are going about the change... which as usual has no regard for the playerbase in General. In fact most things change in game rarely affect their intended target the way CCP wants it do... why because they dont think things out through clearly. For all their arguements that they need to play the game to keep it playable, I am not sure they actually do. You're going to hate me for this... I think loot refining should be drastically nerfed. Part of the decline in industry comes from removing some sharp lines on who does what in EVE. Loot drops drastically nerf the industrialists job. First off there is so much crud loot that many, many modules just are not built. People get loads of them in drops. Second so much of the loot drops are crap that I'd guess 95% of it is melted down putting a significant dent in the mineral market. I'm all for leaving named loot drops as they are but the crud should be scaled back. Note that as a mission runner myself I definitely benefit from the way things are. Today me and two mates did a little pickup mining op (three Hulks with perfect bonus from skills, ALT hauler support and T2 mining drones all around). We netted about 3 million/hour mining in hi sec. If I do a mission I beat that handily. The mission reward alone covers it. Add in bounties and loot and salvage and there is no comparison. More to the point the amount of mins I get from all that (missioning) is not inconsiderable. Certainly I get more mins mining but the difference is not as much as you think and I get some hi ends from loot that I never get from mining in hi sec. Bottom line is the lines in EVE should be drawn more sharply. Most minerals should come from miners. Most mods should come from builders. This would then expand mineral markets and traders moving stuff around. I do not think the loss of loot refines from missioning is too much. They are already massively profitable even without that. Your right I do hate you for it... But taking a look at the list... alot of people get nerfed more than others... most of those mods look like stuff you get off gun boats and armor tankers... so in a sense this is a nerf to the south and east of the game and stealth boost to north and west of the game... this is not the solution no matter how much you want to justify it.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2007.08.18 11:35:00 - [28] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Imperator Jora'h - Ore compression has gotten progressively more efficient. - Travel through 0.0 has gotten far simpler with jump portals. While the first point is true, the second is not. Jump portals are restricted to alliances with titans or high levels of soverignty along the entire route they're jumping. They are not a tool for the small guy in 0.0 while mineral compression is. My fault for restricting it to just jump portals. With carriers cynoing around the effect is nearly the same and carriers are pretty ubiquitous among 0.0 resident corps. With proper compression and a bit of cleverness a carrier can move many freighters worth of mins. But carriers are not cost-effective mineral haulers unless they're compressed, which is why I assumed you brought up jump portals in the first place as they can move freighters through. The cost of fuel to jump-haul 12 freighterloads of minerals from empire to deep 0.0 is negligible when compressed as that could be a single trip but it's totally infeasible when uncompressed as that would make it something like 250 roundtrips. With the Rorqual and a ready supply of ore in highsec, that can be reduced to around 10 roundtrips if I'm reading the numbers right. It's not as effective as carriers with compression but nothing will change. Lowends are not going to be mined in 0.0, instead this ship will be used to compress veldspar (which the market will adapt to supply) and refine it at the other end. But even THEN there's still the associated cost of compressing in strontium and jumping in isotopes and time that could be used elsewhere. The simple fact is that if the cost to jumphaul minerals remains the same as it is now, a nerf of 20% refining fee on compressed modules only increases costs and doesn't dissuade people from using those modules. People will still compress minerals because like it or not, a 20% drop in yield is still more efficient than doing 240 roundtrips in a carrier or compressing ore in a rorqual and doing ten roundtrips in it. All this means is that tritanium prices in 0.0 cannot be less than 20% over empire prices, which they are already. It does depend on the end stats of the rorqual, however, as it could be an efficient jump-freighter if the ore supply market picks up without charging extra (which it will due to supply and demand). This nerf gives a small benefit to those who can do their industry without mineral compression. If CCP are misguided enough to think that this group are people mining locally, they need their heads examined. The people running 0.0 industry without mineral compression are the ones with titans, jumpbridging freighters around. What I would like to see a someone at CCP releasing a single sentence that says what they are trying to achieve with all these changes. What's the ultimate goal? If you tell the players the ultimate goal, you might find they can come up with arguments as to why the way you're going about it is flawed and we may even come up with better ways to achieve what you want. Stop assuming the players can never know better than you because it's entirely possible that some of them do in a given situation. Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened.

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