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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 5 post(s)
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:15:00 - [1] Today I had someone find my mission coords within 2 minutes of me starting the mission. I assume that he has a large collection of book marks and hops between them until he finds someone working on a mission. When he finds a mission runner, he jumps in and immediately begins to salvage. You cannot attack him because he doesn't get flagged for salvaging. Meanwhile, a good portion of your mission profit (especially on L4 missions) go out the window. He did at one point loot one of my jetcans. Since I had him pre-targeted, I released 6 cruise missiles his way, but he was already on the way out and only took the shields down to about 40%. Personally, I think he was "testing" me. Since the added salvaging AFTER the patch that added the criminal flag to those looting cans they don't have permission to; Why doesn't salvage flag a player as criminal if they do not have looting rights to the wreck? It's stealing a good chunk of profit. Now, I know there are several ways to combat this. Blow up the wrecks, but this means that you loose out on the salvage still. You can play the waiting game, but this guy spent the last 3 hours jumping in and out of my deadspace area. Which is why I think he has a collection of book marks and this is how he plays Eve. Flying around leaching off others. The simple solution is to criminal flag those who don't have looting rights. I'm just surprised it wasn't set up like this already. It's time like these why I flip-flop between high sec and 0.0.
Sirial Soulfly	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:30:00 - [2] Hey another salvage doesnt get people flagged post.
Gord Ackfordham Fenscore Enterprises United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:31:00 - [3] gang up with a salvage boat? --- cheers, gordo
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:34:00 - [4] Originally by: Sirial Soulfly Hey another salvage doesnt get people flagged post. I figured there were several.. but, maybe next time I will make a post about how this forum doesn't have a search feature to avoid several posts on the same subject. I don't spend much time on the forum unless I have a need. So, I wouldn't have known.
Synical Light Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:36:00 - [5] I sometimes salvage macro miners wrecks, but not before asking them (which is kinda pointless). But if I ever see a mission runner or anyone other than a miner, I convo and ask 'em. If your in low-sec, I'd just attack anything you think you can take that comes into your mission area, but in highsec you can't much about it --------------------------- --------------------------- Dumbledore returned from the dead and declared it hammertime, harry proceeded to break it down and Voldemort can't touch him.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Gord Ackfordham gang up with a salvage boat? Gah .. if I wanted to gang up with others I would play a multi player game ... wait ... nm... Actually, I used to have a second account for salvaging, but dropped it because that was all I used it for. Besides, I didn't know about this tactic as this is the first time I have seen it before.
Captian Internet	Posted - 2007.08.23 02:50:00 - [7] They aren't your wrecks they are property of the npcs you ganked for no good reason.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.23 03:12:00 - [8] Originally by: Captian Internet They aren't your wrecks they are property of the npcs you ganked for no good reason. .. but I owned them!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.23 03:19:00 - [9] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun I figured there were several.. but, maybe next time I will make a post about how this forum doesn't have a search feature to avoid several posts on the same subject. look up, no further up, yes top of the page, yup to the right, zomg search function! Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.23 03:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Tortun Nahme look up, no further up, yes top of the page, yup to the right, zomg search function! Doh! See, just goes to show you how much I use the forums here. omg! I think I just gained a point in internets! Thanks, thought that was just for the general website, not the forum.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.23 04:03:00 - [11] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Tortun Nahme look up, no further up, yes top of the page, yup to the right, zomg search function! Doh! See, just goes to show you how much I use the forums here. omg! I think I just gained a point in internets! Thanks, thought that was just for the general website, not the forum. Sadly the search function here does pretty much suck though. Eve Search is good though: http://www.eve-search.com/index.dxd?f=T20 As far as the wreck issue goes: been there, done that, page 2. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Synical Light Amarr Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.08.23 04:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Captian Internet They aren't your wrecks they are property of the npcs you ganked for no good reason. .. but I owned them! It's true, technically you own them. Find someone else's wreck and select it, in your overview tab there should be a picture of the person who killed it, which I guess means that they own it. --------------------------- --------------------------- Dumbledore returned from the dead and declared it hammertime, harry proceeded to break it down and Voldemort can't touch him.
Geodeath Caldari Fist of God	Posted - 2007.08.23 05:30:00 - [13] Again with the salvage whining? Come on. Salvage in this game is like in the real world. If it is in the deep, anyone that can get to it owns it. They should let you get the mods out of it as well. Quit crying and shoot some more big rats for me.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.08.23 05:37:00 - [14] Just warp out of the mission whenever he shows up. If he decides to stick around or show up ten minutes later, he'll have a very unpleasant surprise. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Sinder Ohm Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.23 07:12:00 - [15] Meh more Mission salvage whining Originally by: Rawne Karrde PVP in EvE is consentual, you agree to it when you login. If you don't like it you're in the wrong game.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 08:24:00 - [16] Edited by: Bart Roberts on 23/08/2007 08:26:39 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 23/08/2007 08:24:49 Please read to your heart's content: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=579787&page=1#1 Thank you.
Dimagus	Posted - 2007.08.23 09:29:00 - [17] I've personally seen another person in my mission deadspace a total of only one time. Ship warped in, guy saw it was a drone mission, and took off within a minute :D Best solution is just to aggro everything, fly right next to him, warp out and hope he gets a fleet of aggro. If he's in a normal ship with only a salvager or two he'll just warp out and hopefully not with the trouble. If he's in a dedicated salvager like a destroyer there's a good chance he could get popped before making it out.

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.23 09:56:00 - [18] I just poked game design about this. They said they'd look into alternatives to the current situation. The original problem was that the entire profession was jeopardized, when salvaging flagged you, as people would wait in hiding until an unsuspecting salvager showed up to salvage wrecks they had no interest in and summarily explodied him.. but perhaps we can arrive on a better solution. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:04:00 - [19] Originally by: CCP Prism X I just poked game design about this. They said they'd look into alternatives to the current situation. The original problem was that the entire profession was jeopardized, when salvaging flagged you, as people would wait in hiding until an unsuspecting salvager showed up to salvage wrecks they had no interest in and summarily explodied him.. but perhaps we can arrive on a better solution. salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
RaTTuS BIG	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:12:00 - [20] maybe change it so that if the wreak has not been touched [looted] for 1hr then it becomes nobodies property and is free for all - -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:13:00 - [21] Give a button on a wreck which will make it your property. Obviously only visible to the person who the can would belong to. People who don't care enough to select them in overview and click the button won't care enough to salvage them. Don't penalise those of us who salvage as we go to avoid this situation. There has to be an advantage to stripping off a turret to fit a salvager, else why is it a highslot item? ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Kerdrak 3B Legio IX Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:14:00 - [22] Wrecks are trash, but trash in EVE is too valuable ________________________________________

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:15:00 - [23] Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." My point is not everyone salvages. Wrecks left behind by people who have no intention of salvaging them should not be used to trap salvagers into being flagged. Just like if you leave a can on the street and someone picks it up for recycling you're not allowed to report them to the police after beating the crap out of them. Hope that clarifies our stance somewhat. Like I said, we're looking into alternatives. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:18:00 - [24] Originally by: Kerdrak Wrecks are trash, but trash in EVE is too valuable Did you know that there are actually companies in the real world who make their money by digging garbage out of old landfill sites and selling it for recycling? I met someone a while back who was working on a better kind of survey system to intelligently detect the choicest recyclables. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Lysit Kaune Minmatar Phoenix Division The Imperial Order	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Kerdrak Wrecks are trash, but trash in EVE is too valuable Did you know that there are actually companies in the real world who make their money by digging garbage out of old landfill sites and selling it for recycling? I met someone a while back who was working on a better kind of survey system to intelligently detect the choicest recyclables. Similar in the UK, a while back a charge was added to anyone wanting to scrap a car, the result was people just dumped them, possibly burning them out. Now with China's rapid development scrap metal is a bit more pricey, and theres profit to be made from retriving and selling these dumped cars for scrap.
Joshua Mendle Gallente The Bewlay Bros. Inc	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:32:00 - [26] If it was illegal to salvage something that someone else had destroyed, it wouldn't be called Salvage, it would be called "Wreck that someone else has destroyed that you cannot salvage from". Salvage as everyone knows (or I hope they do) belongs to nobody, until someone come along and takes it. Everyone should have salvage rights to a wreck, if they didn't you couldn't call it Salvage. If EVE is aiming at a totally realistic world, then it should mirror this one, ie keep salvage as it is.
Tanaka Nari	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:32:00 - [27] The suggestion to give wrecks a timer after which they become free-for-all is good, imho. Make them yellow while they still belong to a player, and grey after that - just like cargo cans. There should be no "added timer" overhead, since they should have one already that tells them when to expire (disappear).
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 10:44:00 - [28] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 10:44:28 Players also do look at alternatives... The one I like most is the timer idea, exposed as such : the wrecks are owned for either as long as the owner is in sight (possibly too expensive server-wise in term of CPU), or for a set amount of time (30 minutes), or at the end of the mission. Making the salvager job a good one also requires making wrecks probable (after a the condition set above if necessary), and increasing the life expectancy of wrecks to a few days. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Bob Stuart Federation Fleet Endless Horizon	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:02:00 - [29] Edited by: Bob Stuart on 23/08/2007 11:03:06 Background stuff. Wrecks represent items of value, to pilots, in terms of the salvage materials, as well as to various organisations within the universe, Military Intelligence, Law Enforcement, etc. A wreck would contain information that could be of use to these agencies. Example, in the 1939-1945 War, there were Military Intelligence agents and scientists who would pore over wrecks of tanks, aircraft, etc. looking for such things as serial numbers. These numbers were valuable in assessing the oppositions strength. E.g. If the lowest number on a piece of equipment is 100, and the highest 1000, then there is a high possibility of there being 900 of those things in service. Accordingly, wrecks in the EVE universe would also be of interest to the likes of the Federal Intelligence Office, or possibly even CONCORD, in order to monitor the activities of the likes of the Serpentis organisation, or the Angel Cartel. So, why not have the possibility of marking a wreck, for inspection by the interested parties? They would be willing to reward a pilot for providing this sort of intelligence. Game stuff. A player can somehow "mark" a wreck, for inspection by the interested parties. There is a tiny security status gain for doing this (smaller than the gain for the smallest frigate rat). A NPC of the relevant faction would appear in the area (lag permitting) to inspect the wrecks. A marked wreck has reduced salvage value (50% or less - have to leave something for inspection, after all) and cannot be tractored. This makes safe salvaging inconvenient and less profitable than risky salvaging. (risk/reward stuff) A player can attempt to salvage a marked wreck that does not belong to them, but this will flag them to the wreck owner, and possibly also the NPC organisation that was interested in the wreck? (Have a go if you think you're hard enough - same as looting cans) Unmarked wrecks would behave exactly as they are now.
RaTTuS BIG	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:02:00 - [30] Originally by: Cypherous Time to make my cheetah earn its cost then ^^ it has bonus's for probes -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
The Snowman Gallente Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:06:00 - [31] Edited by: The Snowman on 23/08/2007 11:08:02 Maybe there should be a 'claim' timer for looting and salvaging of wrecks. An adjustable option for the pilot! Three options should be given. 1] "I claim all wrecks as mine" - anyone stealing or salvaging will be flagged 2] "I dont care about this crap" - anyone can have it without being flagged 3] "I claim all wrecks as mine - after 'set time' minutes it unflags and is free for all. The last option for those who pick out what loot they want and disgard the rest. This way a salvaging / looting proffesion can be legitimate! And those who want to keep their stuff (or just simply doesnt want anyone else to have it) can be safe. There is a website organisation in the UK called "FREECYCLE" this is where people advertise to other people in there area if they have some junk which, while is useless to them maybe very usefull to someone else! - so its free for anyone to collect! Maybe EVE should have something similar? a "Freecycle board" - Post coordinates for junk they have left as "open for all" I leave tons of wrecks and junk around, I'd be happy to let anyone have it! it would be a very good proffesion for new players, it would maybe releive a bit of load on the server as things are cleaned up more and would stop a lot of "stealing" - because lets face it, a lot of people steal under the assumption that its junk thats not needed.
Thommy	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:08:00 - [32] What about creating advanced filters for various parts (and upgradeing / migradeing the blocked / friends list to it aswell). Example below (in the escape menu, its probably the best place for this): There is one tab called: advanced settings It has the subtabs (few examples maybe needs more): Gang & fleet, Wreckage & container rights, Conversation & CSPA settings The tab Gang & fleet would have the following options: Allow these people to form an gang with you (with an dropdown box) - Nobody - Everyone with organisational CSPA fee 1 - Friends with organisational CSPA fee 2 - Everyone CSPA managed - Everyone - Friends - Only people with who you have 5.0 or more standings set 3 1 This fee can be set individually (public organisational CSPA charge) 2 This fee cam be set individually (friends & relatives organisational CSPA charge 3 Make the 5.0 setting also settable by player When everyone is CSPA managed friends will be presented with friend & relative organisational CSPA charge while everyone else will be presented the public organisational CSPA charge. This way you have full freedom to set CSPA & access rights to you likeing just for gangs. The tab Wreckage & container rights will have the following options: Wrecks and containers have the following restrictions (with an dropdown box) - No looting (only you will be able to remove loot and salvage without flagging) - Gang looting (everyone in your gang will be able to loot and salvage, restriction you have to be in the same system as they are) - Friends looting (everyone in your friends list will be able to access your containers and salvage your wrecks) - Friends with 5.0* standings (everyone with 5.0 or higher standings will be able to access your containers and salvage your wrecks) - Public looting (everyone can access your containers and salvage your wrecks) * The minimal requires standings can be set to whatever is wished / wanted. When a wreck is created the ruleset is immediately applied to it, when you change it the wreck will work with the old ruleset. Only new wrecks will work with changed settings. The tab Conversation & CSPA settings would have the following options: This tab will have the settings currently inside eve mail right click settings option. Additional changes would be that you can set multiple CSPA charges differently for: - Eve mails - Conversations - Fleet / gang invites Any other player initiable action that can be CSPA managed (for if i forgot something). Additionally make it able to totally block / allow specific corporations includeing npc corps. Not new player friendly i know but atleast that way you can keep everyone else with minimal charges instead of setting increasingly higher charges against unsolicitated bulk email (SPAM). Guide to fix eve problems. Patch day recommendations
Kunming The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:12:00 - [33] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." My point is not everyone salvages. Wrecks left behind by people who have no intention of salvaging them should not be used to trap salvagers into being flagged. Just like if you leave a can on the street and someone picks it up for recycling you're not allowed to report them to the police after beating the crap out of them. Hope that clarifies our stance somewhat. Like I said, we're looking into alternatives. You keep forgetting that mission or astroid belt areas where NPCs are being killed are not graveyards. If my car breaks down beyond repair on the roads, its still my responsibility to move it away and before its officially junk there is alot of paperwork to be done, before that any parts removed is stealing. I must say I'm dissapointed in CCP for they keep forgetting that some folks play this game to grief others (and by grief I dont mean combat) and you just give them the freedom and tools to do this! Now there is no junkyard in EVE (maybe there should, would be cool) so I think serving both sides you can make the wreck belong to the owner for half of its lifetime in space (1-2h?) and after that everyone is free to salvage it. Quote: READ THIS NEXT PART CAREFULLY AS IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND POSTING A REPLY WITHOUT READING IT MAY RESULT IN YOU LOOKING STUPID.
SchirmerN Amarr Danish Arms Association	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:17:00 - [34] Edited by: SchirmerN on 23/08/2007 11:18:12 Originally by: DarthMopp Fact is that salvage is often more valuable then Mission Salary+Bonus+Loot together. Thats because you do crapy missions in carebear high sec. Try lowsec where you also can kill whoever get in your sight.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:27:00 - [35] Originally by: SchirmerN Edited by: SchirmerN on 23/08/2007 11:18:12 Originally by: DarthMopp Fact is that salvage is often more valuable then Mission Salary+Bonus+Loot together. Thats because you do crapy missions in carebear high sec. Try lowsec where you also can kill whoever get in your sight. Everyone plays the game the way it suits him...no use in flying low-sec while being lowskilled like me Really....i dont want to have half of the universe chasing me through low/no-sec just because of the 5 Trit-Bars in my storage lol If you need easy targets in Low-Sec to lighten up you killboard then find somebody dumber then me.....which could actually be a pretty hard task rofl "Alea iacta est"
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:34:00 - [36] Originally by: RaTTuS Originally by: Cypherous Time to make my cheetah earn its cost then ^^ it has bonus's for probes Yes and what are used to find mission runners in high sec ^^ --------- Liberty Rogues Website

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:35:00 - [37] I see my example of car-jacking VS car-graveyard has confused some of you to the point where you totally overlook my recyclable soda-can scavenger example. I should probably stop using metaphors and write in pure logic implications instead. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

aquontium Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:38:00 - [38] This thread is turning into a "high-sec vs low-sec" whine again. If you're in low-sec, you can shoot people stealing your cans and they can shoot you. If you're in high-sec, you can shoot war targets in missions, and steal their cans, and get shot. If you're scared of getting shot by anyone, stay in your starter corp. If you're scared of getting shot by everyone, learn to shoot back. If you're so scared of pirates, keep a ship in each station in low-sec and travel in a shuttle or iStab(like an iPod) Atron etc. In low sec you can: Use intel channels. Accept missions only in a safe system Get friendly with the locals Dock if you see pirates. Get 200% of the mission reward. Shoot stuff. Call for help. It's really no scarier than high-sec after a couple of weeks. And it encourages you to make friends. I don't understand why everyone thinks high sec should be safe for them, but not for the salvagers! Just wardec their corp and sprout some rails at them when they warp in! A good salvage ship is expensive and paper thin. PS. You can always use targeting disruptor drones to dump a spawn onto a salvager.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:46:00 - [39] Edited by: DarthMopp on 23/08/2007 12:04:27 Originally by: CCP Prism X I see my example of car-jacking VS car-graveyard has confused some of you to the point where you totally overlook my recyclable soda-can scavenger example. I should probably stop using metaphors and write in pure logic implications instead. What Soda-Can are you talking about ? lol Metaphors are only as good as the one who makes them. Though i doubt that some people would even understand logic implications as well..... Ok..back to the soda-can....if i would have a party in my garden (metaphorical for Dead-Space Mission)and some Punk would come around uninvited to collect the empty Beer-Cans (metaphorical for salvaging killed NPC¦s) to sell them to the next store he would face some ***ed off guys i guess. Edit.: Oh..and i didn¦t want to turn this thread into a lowsec/highsec whine. I just wanted to point out that every single player (not singleplayer) in EvE may play the way he likes most. For me at the moment it is indeed highsec, as my skills do not match with those i have to face in 0.0 One more for metaphorics: Or would you try and challenge Lance Armstrong in a bicycle Race with the slightest hope to win ? Well i wont. I may ride the same bike as him....but his skills are far superior... You may even give me 1 Gallon of EPO....i would still loose :D See...my point of view...let them 1337-Elite-Pro-G4MeRz have the no-sec....i like my game not to be a lag-fest with x-hundred fighters in a big blob shooting at POS¦s.....i like high sec "Alea iacta est*"

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:48:00 - [40] Ah but you're not in your garden. You're on the street. Your garden would be your corps station whereas empire deepspace pockets belong to empires, not you. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Maglorre	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:48:00 - [41] Originally by: The Snowman I leave tons of wrecks and junk around, I'd be happy to let anyone have it! it would be a very good proffesion for new players, it would maybe releive a bit of load on the server as things are cleaned up more and would stop a lot of "stealing" - because lets face it, a lot of people steal under the assumption that its junk thats not needed. This is easy. Bookmark a wreck and place the bookmark up in a contract then advertise the contract in local. A book mark to a recently completed level 4 mission space is quite valuable but putting it up for a nominal small fee will possibly help out a noob. Only problem with this approach is that a bookmark is only viable for 30 minutes to an hour. I've tried a few times asking in mission systems if anyone is prepared to provide a bookmark if they don't want to salvage. It's worked out quite well a few times but mostly you just get ignored. Shame really. What I would like to see is the ability to probe wrecks coupled with the "loss" of wreck ownership after a certain time period. The removal of ownership should also apply to content of wrecks so you can loot as well as salvage. If wrecks were to be impossible to probe while inside a deadspace area but able to be probed when not in deadspace then it would reduce the chance of someone bothering to scan you down while the mission was in progress.
Mikal Drey Angels and Demons	Posted - 2007.08.23 11:57:00 - [42] hey hey Add Mines to salvaged items. If your same corp/Gang then the mine drops to the cargohold safely. If your not then it explodes inside your cargohold destroying everything
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:11:00 - [43] Originally by: CCP Prism X Ah but you're not in your garden. You're on the street. Your garden would be your corps station whereas empire deepspace pockets belong to empires, not you. Oooor....the owner of the street or his representive ( Mission Agent ) gives you the order to clean this special part of the street..and somebody who is not on your payroll enters the scene, getting everything valuable and then is off to the jungle..... Now enough with metachlorscism...betafluorfission...Zetakillmission...metaphorism.. "Alea iacta est"
The Snowman Gallente Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:16:00 - [44] Originally by: Maglorre This is easy. Bookmark a wreck and place the bookmark up in a contract then advertise the contract in local. A book mark to a recently completed level 4 mission space is quite valuable but putting it up for a nominal small fee will possibly help out a noob. Only problem with this approach is that a bookmark is only viable for 30 minutes to an hour. True, you can do this, but people dont look at contracts to find bookmarks, so there would have to be a way to make everyone aware of them! - and as you say they dont last long anyway, so you would need self expiring notices. It is possible for people to cooperate more, but it clearly needs a "system" for the salvage steal issue, and this could be a way to fix that problem and provide a new feature. Originally by: Maglorre I've tried a few times asking in mission systems if anyone is prepared to provide a bookmark if they don't want to salvage. It's worked out quite well a few times but mostly you just get ignored. Shame really. True enough, but again I think this is because you have to "gang up" warp to location etc, and you can only ask in local! not region wide. Also, mission runners are just too lazy they want to hand in their mission quickly and start the next rather than wait for salvagers to arrive. so a way to 'auto-flag' wrecks as being "freecycle" would be better!... Maybe give them a colour after scan, green is everyones, red flags you as theif and yellow for "flagged now, but soon to be green" Your other suggestions also look good.. I think there is definatly potential in all these ideas - PrismX what do you think?
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:24:00 - [45] Edited by: Bart Roberts on 23/08/2007 12:28:25 Originally by: The Snowman Edited by: The Snowman on 23/08/2007 11:08:02 Maybe there should be a 'claim' timer for looting and salvaging of wrecks. An adjustable option for the pilot! Three options should be given. 1] "I claim all wrecks as mine" - anyone stealing or salvaging will be flagged 2] "I dont care about this crap" - anyone can have it without being flagged 3] "I claim all wrecks as mine - after 'set time' minutes it unflags and is free for all. I'm afraid that a lot of mission-runners less generous than you would choose option 1 out of spite, regardless of whether they had any intention of salvaging or not. I'm against any change that would leave the status of the wreck solely to the discretion of the mission-runner. Originally by: Maglorre If wrecks were to be impossible to probe while inside a deadspace area but able to be probed when not in deadspace then it would reduce the chance of someone bothering to scan you down while the mission was in progress. Why bother going to the effort of making wrecks scannable? If the wishes of the vocal minority are granted and a timer of some sort is put on wrecks, who cares if the salvager comes into the mission and bookmarks for future reference? They're not pirates, at least not in high-sec, which is what this whole discussion centres on since mission-runners in low-sec can blast first and ask questions later just like anyone else. Making wrecks scannable would make salvaging too easy in my opinion, and that's coming from someone who is a hardcore scavenger! Also, speaking with my explorer hat on, I have to point out that the currently useless "Scrap" setting on the scanner is reserved for the Unknown encounter hits that currently fall under "Cosmic Signature". So sayeth CCP Greyscale. So don't even think of trying to appropriate it for wrecks! If it ain't broke, don't fix it ... if it is broke, salvage it!
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:25:00 - [46] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey Add Mines to salvaged items. If your same corp/Gang then the mine drops to the cargohold safely. If your not then it explodes inside your cargohold destroying everything That's just petty.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:28:00 - [47] Originally by: Maglorre If wrecks were to be impossible to probe while inside a deadspace area but able to be probed when not in deadspace then it would reduce the chance of someone bothering to scan you down while the mission was in progress. Why bother going to the effort of making wrecks scannable? If the wishes of the vocal minority are granted and a timer of some sort is put on wrecks, who cares if the salvager comes into the mission and bookmarks for future reference? They're not pirates, at least not in high-sec, which is what this whole discussion centres on since mission-runners in low-sec can blast first and ask questions later just like anyone else. Making wrecks scannable would make salvaging too easy in my opinion, and that's coming from someone who is a hardcore scavenger! If it ain't broke, don't fix it ... if it is broke, salvage it! I do not agree with this point. The problem currently is that it's not necessary because the wreck last 1 or 2 hours (AFAIK). If a time protection is set, the wreck would have to last longer. If wrecks were to change to 1 or 2 days, the space would be full of unfindable wrecks. Therefore the need for scanning wrecks is born. It does depends of wat solution is implemented though. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:34:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Prism X I just poked game design about this. They said they'd look into alternatives to the current situation. The original problem was that the entire profession was jeopardized, when salvaging flagged you, as people would wait in hiding until an unsuspecting salvager showed up to salvage wrecks they had no interest in and summarily explodied him.. but perhaps we can arrive on a better solution. 1 hour for the owner, then another hour for anyone. Or 2/2 or similar. Or automatic settings (I know in 0.0 ratting, it is usually the case that a newer 0.0 person will make money by going round after an experienced ratter to salvage. Waiting an hour might not be too bad, but maybe and automatic option might be better?) ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:36:00 - [49] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather I do not agree with this point. The problem currently is that it's not necessary because the wreck last 1 or 2 hours (AFAIK). If a time protection is set, the wreck would have to last longer. If wrecks were to change to 1 or 2 days, the space would be full of unfindable wrecks. Therefore the need for scanning wrecks is born. It does depends of wat solution is implemented though. As you say, it depends on what (if anything) is implemented. I say if there were a timer, make it start as soon as the room is complete. Wrecks should still last the same amount of time. No way they will be extended to last 1 to 2 days, because wreck clutter is part of the reason why salvaging exists. You wouldn't be able to fly in Motsu without hitting something, and the system would experience even more lag from all of the noobs swarming around like flies trying to get it all.
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:48:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Prism X I just poked game design about this. They said they'd look into alternatives to the current situation. The original problem was that the entire profession was jeopardized, when salvaging flagged you, as people would wait in hiding until an unsuspecting salvager showed up to salvage wrecks they had no interest in and summarily explodied him.. but perhaps we can arrive on a better solution. So just the same as they can do with the existing loot flagging system now then...
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 12:59:00 - [51] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 13:00:00 When I think that in the last topic on this subject, the "problem" for some people was the trap for the poor mission runner that is tricked by a salvager and gets blown up, and now people are complaining because of the opposite situation. Usually a lot of trolls come and say "adapt, it's eve, go back to WoW", it's strange that no one does today. Whatever. It makes for a good laugh. Because in both case, as said above, loot gives the exact same result and trap. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:18:00 - [52] Edited by: Bart Roberts on 23/08/2007 13:20:55 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 23/08/2007 13:19:02 Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 13:00:00 When I think that in the last topic on this subject, the "problem" for some people was the trap for the poor mission runner that is tricked by a salvager and gets blown up, and now people are complaining because of the opposite situation. Are you referring to what Prism said? I would hardly call it a complaint, he was just explaining the historical reason why it was made possible to salvage before looting. GASP! Wait a minute. An actual CCP dev just confirmed what I suspected all along ... salvaging is really not theft! Thank you thank you thank you. PS: AND he called it a "profession", bless him. PS: adapt, it's eve, go back to WoW
Lavinrac Krad Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:23:00 - [53] How about just doing away with flagging? 1- If a solo miner wants to solo mine safely, just put cargo expanders and rigs on your exhumer. 2- If a mission runner wants to prevent theft solo, then just salvage and loot as you complete the mission. Sure, these two conditions negate efficiency, but I think there should be a trade off: Efficiency for complete security. Why donÆt you show us on the dolly where the bad miner touched you. -Thesas THE NERF BAT COMETH! REPENT SINNER!
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:25:00 - [54] I can see why they have it this way. The way salvage is set up it acts as a kind of newbie welfare. I know when I was new I made a good deal of ISK (at the time) scavenging cans others left behind (usually after asking first if the owner was still in the system). I'd hate to see salvage turn into a greifing tool, but you should be able to do something about it other then war dec. How about mini personal war decs? They could be cheaper, last only 24 hours, and can only be waged against a player. Or the ability to booby trap cans. "They must find it difficult... those who have taken authority as the truth, rather then truth as the authority." - Gerald Massey
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:28:00 - [55] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 13:29:28 Quote: Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 13:00:00 When I think that in the last topic on this subject, the "problem" for some people was the trap for the poor mission runner that is tricked by a salvager and gets blown up, and now people are complaining because of the opposite situation. Are you referring to what Prism said? I would hardly call it a complaint, he was just explaining the historical reason why it was made possible to salvage before looting. GASP! Wait a minute. An actual CCP dev just confirmed what I suspected all along ... salvaging is really not theft! Thank you thank you thank you. PS: adapt, it's eve, go back to WoW Hum, whatever. Read the rest of the post, the main point is that it's possible to do the same via looting. Furthermore, I don't care about historical reason for mistakes, which were probably following a mass of whines anyway. From what I've read, the consensus then was that salvaging would be a way to make quick money for noobs, and that "high level" mission runners wouldn't use it. It's fairly obvious now, given the price of some t1 rigs and t2 rigs and taking into account the amount of money generated by salvaging in high sec that it's not the case now. In other word, whatever historical reason there was before is not in place anymore. The situation changed. And I said "adapt blabla" because it's the usual answer given to people trapped in Eve (ganks, can theft, station camp and the like). Repeating it to me now it kinda pointless, especially since I do adapt (no one takes my wrecks now, I'm killing stuff mostly in deserted places and have tractor beam + salvager on board). -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:37:00 - [56] To those talking about WoW, be aware that WoW does NOT feature the kind of protection people here are asking for. Anyone with the skill can skin the corpses of your enemies even though they can never take loot from them. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:41:00 - [57] Edited by: CCP Prism X on 23/08/2007 13:41:36 Originally by: Adonis 4174 To those talking about WoW, be aware that WoW does NOT feature the kind of protection people here are asking for. Anyone with the skill can skin the corpses of your enemies even though they can never take loot from them. Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately. But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. ~ Prism X Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:45:00 - [58] to the OP: imho salvaging mechanix are just fine. i know, its hard in highsec to defend against salvage "theft" (its a WRECK ffs), but there are options, one being to blow your wrecks up, just before your "thief" gets to them. admittedly thats harder in a raven than in any proper battleship, but hey i guess thats what you get for playing easy mode. if you do that long enough he will remember your name and bug other people, that leave him be, because there he can make profit. and something else: blow up your neighbours lexus. are the leftovers now rightfully yours? sheesh... Stackless pythons ate my hamsters!
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:46:00 - [59] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 13:29:28 Furthermore, I don't care about historical reason for mistakes, which were probably following a mass of whines anyway. In the current context, I think the irony of that statement speaks for itself. Originally by: Ares Lightfeather From what I've read, the consensus then was that salvaging would be a way to make quick money for noobs, and that "high level" mission runners wouldn't use it. It's fairly obvious now, given the price of some t1 rigs and t2 rigs and taking into account the amount of money generated by salvaging in high sec that it's not the case now. In other word, whatever historical reason there was before is not in place anymore. The situation changed. Funny, I see it exactly the opposite, also based on "what I've read". Salvaging was supposed to get enough salvage components on the market to keep rigs reasonably priced. Not enough high-level mission runners are doing it. Thus, the inflated prices for rigs. Originally by: Ares Lightfeather And I said "adapt blabla" because it's the usual answer given to people trapped in Eve (ganks, can theft, station camp and the like). Repeating it to me now it kinda pointless, especially since I do adapt (no one takes my wrecks now, I'm killing stuff mostly in deserted places and have tractor beam + salvager on board). Then why are you complaining? If you figured it out, then so can others!
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:48:00 - [60] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 23/08/2007 13:41:36 Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately. But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. I want to marry you (in a platonic way).
Terranid Meester Knights Hospitalier	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:53:00 - [61] The system is fine as it is. Salvagers of wrecks provide a valuable service in clearing up space (reducing lag?). It also gives new players something to do and gives them a boost of isk. Salvage should be free for all and it also has the bonus of taking away some of the isk from high sec mission runners.
Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Kunming You keep forgetting that mission or astroid belt areas where NPCs are being killed are not graveyards. If my car breaks down beyond repair on the roads, its still my responsibility to move it away and before its officially junk there is alot of paperwork to be done, before that any parts removed is stealing. I must say I'm dissapointed in CCP for they keep forgetting that some folks play this game to grief others (and by grief I dont mean combat) and you just give them the freedom and tools to do this! ok... so basically the wrecks you create belong to the rats you blow up, therefor you should be concordokkened for salvaging them? your flawed logic is flawed Stackless pythons ate my hamsters!
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 13:59:00 - [63] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 14:00:22 Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Funny, I see it exactly the opposite, also based on "what I've read". Salvaging was supposed to get enough salvage components on the market to keep rigs reasonably priced. Not enough high-level mission runners are doing it. Thus, the inflated prices for rigs. Hum, just by making a timer and making it possible to probe wrecks and letting wreck last for 1 day would achieve both result I aim for and you aim for. You've said you're against it. So much for historical reasons. Quote: Then why are you complaining? If you figured it out, then so can others! Because not everyone flys a gallente droneboat. I'm flying a solopwnmobile with insane tank, damage that does not depend of fittings to kill rats and salvaging at the same time. I do have more difficulties imagining a caldaris or amarr killing BS with half of their guns / missiles / lasers fitted. Whereas I just fit a single gun and kill I can kill BS. Well, for now I'm stuck to lvl 3 mission if I solo, because the skills for the tank ain't high enough, but it's only a matter of time before I can do the level 4. The problem is that the only solution I have as a mission runner (except metagaming using an alt) is choosing a specific race. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:07:00 - [64] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 23/08/2007 14:00:05 Originally by: Kunming You keep forgetting that mission or astroid belt areas where NPCs are being killed are not graveyards. If my car breaks down beyond repair on the roads, its still my responsibility to move it away and before its officially junk there is alot of paperwork to be done, before that any parts removed is stealing. I must say I'm dissapointed in CCP for they keep forgetting that some folks play this game to grief others (and by grief I dont mean combat) and you just give them the freedom and tools to do this! ok... so basically the wrecks you create belong to the rats you blow up, therefor you should be concordokkened for salvaging them? your flawed logic is flawed. No, your analogy is flawed, you don't get concorded for shooting rats, so it would be a little strange if you did for salvaging their wrecks now wouldn't it...
Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:08:00 - [65] Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 23/08/2007 14:09:01 Originally by: Ovno ConSyquence No, your analogy is flawed, you don't get concorded for shooting rats, so it would be a little strange if you did for salvaging their wrecks now wouldn't it... of the analogy is flawed, it needs to be, since you being flagged to the rats wouldnt make any sense. my point was the wreck actually belongs to a dead NPC pilot. and thats what the analogy made perfectly clear. Stackless pythons ate my hamsters!
Darth Felin	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:13:00 - [66] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 23/08/2007 13:41:36 Originally by: Adonis 4174 To those talking about WoW, be aware that WoW does NOT feature the kind of protection people here are asking for. Anyone with the skill can skin the corpses of your enemies even though they can never take loot from them. Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately. But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. As i understand we talk about different thing. It is not easy for a newbie to scan a missionrunner. I think it is mostly impossible because you have to train special skills for it, have a lot of bookmarks and so on. Usually newbie will just ask a mission runner to form a gank with him to reach mission site. And idid not see anyone, even a complete newbie who tried to salvage wrecks in hisec belts after someone else. IMHO salvage=loot so if there is aggrotimer for looting someone's loot it have to apply for salvage as well.
Cpt Placeholder	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:13:00 - [67] I don't see a problem with the current mechanics. I don't see a problem with making salvaging flag someone. People can use cans to bait someone, it wouldn't be any different with wrecks. 80% of the time flagging results in the mission runner cowering in a station or dead.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:18:00 - [68] Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 14:19:07 Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Adonis 4174 To those talking about WoW, be aware that WoW does NOT feature the kind of protection people here are asking for. Anyone with the skill can skin the corpses of your enemies even though they can never take loot from them. Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately. But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. Yeah right. In my opinion, the point is that the salvager can (and should) regroup and use this to pwn mission runners, instead of worrying about being killed by the mission runner. It also creates one more wreck, which is a pleasing benefit for a salvager. That will teaching them about what Eve is. Sheltering them into a completely safe occupation won't. Even though, I'm still for a solution that does protect them, via timer use and extension of wreck life expectancy. For 2 reasons : - increased life expectancy -> it's possible to wreck full time (given the number of people that do not salvage), - timer -> protects the mission runner's loot for the time of the mission. And, of course, adding the ability to probe wrecks is a nice benefit... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:21:00 - [69] Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 14:00:22 Hum, just by making a timer and making it possible to probe wrecks and letting wreck last for 1 day would achieve both result I aim for and you aim for. You've said you're against it. So much for historical reasons. Yes, I am against it. Because -- among other reasons -- I don't believe that having a timer and having wrecks last longer would make the mission runners who currently don't salvage suddenly change their minds. I as a salvager don't need wrecks to last longer. Either I find them fast enough or I don't, that's part of my risk of doing business. My "aim" is to have as many people as possible salvaging, as freely as possible (assuming that they have earned the skills to do so, and as I have said before I would be in favour of not allowing trial accounts to salvage and making the skill requirements somewhat higher than they are right now). Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Because not everyone flys a gallente droneboat. I'm flying a solopwnmobile with insane tank, damage that does not depend of fittings to kill rats and salvaging at the same time. I do have more difficulties imagining a caldaris or amarr killing BS with half of their guns / missiles / lasers fitted. Whereas I just fit a single gun and kill I can kill BS. Well, for now I'm stuck to lvl 3 mission if I solo, because the skills for the tank ain't high enough, but it's only a matter of time before I can do the level 4. The problem is that the only solution I have as a mission runner (except metagaming using an alt) is choosing a specific race. That's their problem then, not yours. You chose the right tool for what you wanted to do (ratting + salvage all-in-one). If others want to do it too, they have to make the same choice. I had to choose the right tool for my job too (destroyer w/ 8 high slots and cargo expanders).
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:21:00 - [70] First... the WoW and skinning reference fails, you can't skin a corpse that has loot on it... On the OP's point (and as was advocated on both this and the other thread), I like the idea that for a given period of time, loot and wreck have an ownership flag, if that period of time is 15 minutes, 30 minutes, an hour or until a mission is turned in... or a combination there of... 30 minutes or until a mission is turned in, which ever is longer... at the end of that period, all flags (loot and wreck) are removed and anyone that finds it can have it. The timer allows for the wrecks of belt rats as well... 30 minutes and they are unflagged... as for extending the time the wreck exists, that needs not change, just start it from the time the ownership flag is reset (removed). --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Taipan Gedscho Muzzletov Gewaltski Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:26:00 - [71] if you want to change anything, make it so, that everybody that salvages a wreck gets a global criminal countdown. after all your stealing from the npc pilots Stackless pythons ate my hamsters!
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:34:00 - [72] Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Edited by: Ares Lightfeather on 23/08/2007 14:00:22 Hum, just by making a timer and making it possible to probe wrecks and letting wreck last for 1 day would achieve both result I aim for and you aim for. You've said you're against it. So much for historical reasons. Yes, I am against it. Because -- among other reasons -- I don't believe that having a timer and having wrecks last longer would make the mission runners who currently don't salvage suddenly change their minds. I as a salvager don't need wrecks to last longer. Either I find them fast enough or I don't, that's part of my risk of doing business. My "aim" is to have as many people as possible salvaging, as freely as possible (assuming that they have earned the skills to do so, and as I have said before I would be in favour of not allowing trial accounts to salvage and making the skill requirements somewhat higher than they are right now). Well, if that's what you believe there is nothing I can do to prevent it. I believe the opposite, just so you know. Quote: Originally by: Ares Lightfeather Because not everyone flys a gallente droneboat. That's their problem then, not yours. You chose the right tool for what you wanted to do (ratting + salvage all-in-one). If others want to do it too, they have to make the same choice. I had to choose the right tool for my job too (destroyer w/ 8 high slots and cargo expanders). If metagaming or forcing anyone to choose a specific way is the only solution, the problem needs a change. Forcing people to use a specific race to fly titan for example ? How would that feel (the outrage would be enormous) ? It's the exact same here. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:39:00 - [73] Non-consensual salvaging, oh noes! Seriously, mechanics are fine. However, I could go with the 30 minute timer thing, since it's a good compromise. But please stop posting the same thing over and over. - Got grief?
Zimjin Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:49:00 - [74] Ideal, in my opinion, if it's technically feasible: Salvage rights are yours until you get 100km away from the wreck. So as soon as you warp away or enter a gate or otherwise wander off, those wrecks are up for grabs. I like this better than the "timer" idea.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2007.08.23 14:51:00 - [75] Originally by: Zimjin Ideal, in my opinion, if it's technically feasible: Salvage rights are yours until you get 100km away from the wreck. So as soon as you warp away or enter a gate or otherwise wander off, those wrecks are up for grabs. I like this better than the "timer" idea. So you want be able to go to another mission pocket or jump to a station to take salvager? Great idea . Can you explain that part of salvaging problem do you want to solve with it?
Billy Sastard Amarr Life. Universe. Everything. Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:08:00 - [76] I really don't like the idea of changing the salvaging rules as they stand, and to be honest the means to get your wrecks salvaged in a speedy manner exist in game right now. It is called flying with a buddy who is in a salvage ship, who salvages as you kill. For those greedy folks you can even do this with an alt account so you don't have to share anything. -=^=-
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:16:00 - [77] Originally by: Hamfast First... the WoW and skinning reference fails, you can't skin a corpse that has loot on it... But in a team there is frequently one skinner who comes round skinning the corpses after they've been looted. Since unlike Eve not everyone can skin corpses in WoW, several corpses will be left lying around waiting for the team skinner to come and beat the passing skin thief. Yeah, it sounds lame. So does whining about this. Give in on flagging salvagers and next people will want looking in a loot can to flag you since people can quite happily fly around your loot cans until they find the choice expensive bit and then align before grabbing it. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
dhav kincaide Caldari Quantum Industries Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:25:00 - [78] Change the loot and salvage system to work on a two or multi-phase basis: Phase one would have the can or wreck flagged like loot cans are now: if you steal or salvage it, you're flagged and have the appropriate kill rights slapped on you. This would last for a reasonable amount of time, giving the owner some time to come back to the items and deal with them accordingly. Phase two would kick in after that timer expires, and would remain in place until the object goes away on its own. During this phase, the items would be flagged green, and would be FFA, with no reprecussions to the person who comes in and pilfers it the items or scraps. Consideration could also be added for a switch that the loot/wreck owner could flip, making the item FFA. (some people either CBA to get it and are just out for the kill money, or don't have the salvage skill to clean up the wreck.) Other games have made use of similar systems, where the first few minutes of the corpse's loot timer would be locked to the character or group that finished it off; after 3-4 minutes goes by, the corpse is FFA. Something to consider. -dhav kincaide QI nooblet
Biytor	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:37:00 - [79] Just put a decay timer on the Salvage. After "X" number of minutes it's open to everyone. When the timer runs out, the persons pic disappears from the salvage and it's a free-for-all, kinda like it would be with an open bar at Fanfest
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.23 16:56:00 - [80] I wouldn't normally do this, but since the thread has gotten dev attention, I'll just c&p what I said about it yesterday in another long thread on the same matter. "My main tl;dr points would be: Free salvage is intended to work the way it does, and this behavior is documented in the official knowledgebase as well as dev statements. This doesn't mean the behavior can't be changed, however it does mean arguing that free salvage is theft and that the people making money off of it are criminals is patently false. So the question is, why should or shouldn't it be criminalized? - Salvage has some risk, not a lot, just like other many other things in EVE. - Just as important as risk/reward in EVE is effort/reward, and the primary "risk" in salvaging is putting in the effort and getting little to show for it on any particular night. So salvaging is as much in line with EVE's principals as any other profession, and more than some. - Mission runners put in effort too, but for that they get the same rewards they've always had: loot, bounties, completion awards, standings. In comparison with probing down salvage, all this income is virtually guaranteed. - They also have the best chance to get salvage, because they get the locations for free, and they're able to tractor wrecks. So the net result has been an increase in mission running rewards, even in the current system. - Additionally, mission runners have ways of increasing the chances that they get first claim on the salvage, through ship choice, through being selective about where they run missions, through alts, and most of all, through teamwork. If he wants the salvage, it's up to him to be strong, fast, and clever enough to take it, rather than for the law to intervene on his behalf. - Salvage is more like mining than looting. The salvager "mines" it out of the wreck with customized ships and specialized modules, after which it becomes legally his. - The mission runner has no legal claim on it, because he hasn't yet invested the effort to produce it. - On the other hand, free salvage isn't analogous to ore theft for the same reason: the ore hasn't yet been mined, and the mission runner has no more claim on it than he does on the asteroids he hasn't touched in the mission space, or the ratter does on roids in the belt he happens to be hunting in. - Free salvage is good for the game. It reduces waste and makes components and rigs cheaper. More importantly, it adds another viable profession to the game, especially for newer players, and one that is more viable than it would be if loot and salvage shared the same legal ramifications. - Criminalizing salvage amounts to little more than a buff to hisec mission runners. It would have no benefit for anyone else, and it would severely nerf the salvaging profession, as well as inflating the cost of rigs for everyone. That's about all I can think of at the moment. However I will say that much of the problem is a common but not universal mission runner mentality especially in HiSec, which is that mission sites are their own personal solo instances, rather than a seamless part of a universe full of other players." * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:03:00 - [81] OTOH, I wouldn't be adverse to salvaging being a skill that's disallowed from trial accounts, as apparently they're causing a fair number of the issues, and some of the normal recourses one would have aren't effective on them. I also wouldn't necessarily be against a timer, as long as it was short (like 5 minutes or less), automatic rather than dependent on somebody pressing a button, and not a load on the game. But basically I think the current mechanics are fine. If there's a weakness, it's in making people aware of how things work. I think that just making some more official comments about it, and adding documentation to the player guide and maybe the tutorial would take care of a lot of the objections over this issue. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:05:00 - [82] If you add a flag to wrecks I gaurantee it will be used to bait newbs to kill them. Hell, it seems to get enough people killed with containers as it is. "Hmm...this looks like an empty belt. Hey there's a can someone left here...I wonder what's inside. Wow! This module is 1.2 mil on the market...I don't see anyone around...maybe I'll snatch it. Oh no, what is that on my overview decloaking 10km below the can? WHERE DID MY SHIP GO?" =D --- Put in space whales!
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:12:00 - [83] Originally by: Lisento Slaven If you add a flag to wrecks I gaurantee it will be used to bait newbs to kill them. Hell, it seems to get enough people killed with containers as it is. "Hmm...this looks like an empty belt. Hey there's a can someone left here...I wonder what's inside. Wow! This module is 1.2 mil on the market...I don't see anyone around...maybe I'll snatch it. Oh no, what is that on my overview decloaking 10km below the can? WHERE DID MY SHIP GO?" =D As you pointed out, this happens now... personally, a timer on all ownership (Loot, Wrecks and perhaps Jet Cans) may help limit the newb abuse... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:49:00 - [84] Please stop using analogies. Every possible point of view can be represented with an analogy. A wreck belongs to whoever destroyed the ship. It has their name on it. They can tractor it. If they decide to shoot at it, Concord doesn't warp in. If you killed it, it has your name on it and I shoot at it, Concord appears and I have to buy a new ship. If I take anything out of it, you can shoot at me. That very clearly establishes who is the owner and who is not. This is supposed to be a pvp game, where you have to risk something to get a reward. Where is the risk in dropping a probe in highsec and slurping up millions worth of salvage from wrecks that belongs to someone else? A mechanic that allows one player to steal from another in complete safety is offensive in a game like this. I like the idea of a timer. Some people salvage their wrecks and some don't. If the wreck is there an hour later, then whoever is named on it probably isn't going to come back. Until they remember that this isn't Fluffy Carebears Online, here is how you run off a salvage thief: 1) Shoot and destroy every wreck within 10KM of them until they leave 2) Warn others in local
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:50:00 - [85] Prism, Just a couple of questions... 1.) How difficult would it be to move the missions around so bookmarks won't work on them? 2.) Is it possible to prevent missions from being scanned? I ask as the OP said it was here mission after she started it that got salvaged. It would leave one to believe that a. the missions are stationary and bookmarkable, and/or b. they could be scanned and located that way. "The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why and Where
WGAnubis Marrith Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:51:00 - [86] Edited by: WGAnubis Marrith on 23/08/2007 17:51:59 Ive read threw this thread and ive noticed something rather interesting. We're addressing the fact that anyone can steal salavage from anyones wreck, but we arnt addressing the reasons why. Quite simply the reasons why is that salvage is hugely profitable to perhaps the point of obserdity. A level 2 mission can give you nearly 1.5-3.0 million in ISK when combined with salvage (The blockade mission comes to mind). There is salvage out there that can net 500k just for a single piece of it. I mean come on, move over mining, Salvaging is more profitable with a fraction of the investment. The way I see it there are 3 possible solutions to the problem. 1. Get an alt account and make it for utility purposes. A utility account can haul, salvage, admin leadership bonuses, be a freighter pilot, probe, perform recon work, etc. Frankly if you have an alt you are basicly a two man team who reaps 100% of the profit. 2. The developers place a timer on wrecks. From the point of the ships destruction to an hour later, the wreck can only be salvaged by the killer of the NPC without a problem or crime warning. 3. The developers increase the drop rate of the salvage, making it more common to obtain and lowering the over all price of said salvage thus making salvage looters have to work harder to obtain that multi million paycheck. This option of course puts a cramp on the mission runners who want to make money off the salvage, but your still making money as opposed to a salvage theif stealing it from you.
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.08.23 17:59:00 - [87] TBH I think that removing little things like this is a bad idea :( I like the fact that an enterprising newbie can "clean up" after some ravon pilot has finished pwning a lvl4 mission. Then again I think things like scams, pirates, theft and ganking are good for the game. I am sure many mission running carebears will disagree.
Zimjin Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:12:00 - [88] Originally by: MITSUK0 I like the fact that an enterprising newbie can "clean up" after some ravon pilot has finished pwning a lvl4 mission. This is exactly how I've been making some of my better money: sneaking around in a Condor and cleaning up wrecks of ships I couldn't possibly handle myself. The argument someone else made that it doesn't give people a chance to "sign in their alt to salvage with" is lame. Screw alts. They can salvage with their main or they can give it up for charity. The only problem, which I agree is a problem, is that you can do this without being flagged for PvP. I wouldn't want some scrub coming into my mission, salvaging my wrecks and there's nothing I can do about it without Concorde showing up to kill me. That's practically an exploit. Personally, I'm perfectly fine with the idea that salvaging someone else's wreck flags me for PvP. Same with looting other people's wrecks. If nobody is around and there's something on there worth some cash to me, I'll swipe it, take the flag and be happy (and, possibly, run away with optional cackling). I'll still salvage wrecks if they flag me, too. Risk vs Reward! So I say go ahead and flag salvagers, and that's coming from a newbie salvager. (This is also why I salvage with a Condor in 0.0 space, when I can get there -- I fully expect someone to try and kill me while I'm salvaging, it's up to me to cover my own ass and be ready to get out of there, not up to CCP to cover my ass for me.)
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:28:00 - [89] Originally by: Rooker A wreck belongs to whoever destroyed the ship. It has their name on it. They can tractor it. If they decide to shoot at it, Concord doesn't warp in. If you killed it, it has your name on it and I shoot at it, Concord appears and I have to buy a new ship. If I take anything out of it, you can shoot at me. That very clearly establishes who is the owner and who is not. Because to display it otherwise would require separate items for the wreck and the cargo cannister inside and that would cause even more lag so instead CCP decided to integrate the properties of the cargo cannister into the properties of the wreck and trust people to work out the difference. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:31:00 - [90] Two words people are throwing around light and easy. First one is "problem". Just because you think something is a problem, does not make it so like some fundamental law of nature. A problem for you perhaps, but not a problem for the game. Second one is "thief". Salvaging is not currently illegal, therefore no matter how you twist it, tie it in knots and collapse on top of it in a sobbing, inconsolable heap, someone engaged in this activity is not a thief. Annoying to you, but not a thief. Finally I will say again that salvaging was not introduced specifically with the intention of rewarding mission runners, as has been forcefully and authoritatively pointed out by an actual CCP developer in this very thread. Just because you have become mentally accustomed to regarding salvage as part of your booty along with bounty, LP, loot and standing (enough for ya yet?) does not make it so. Again, even though I am a salvager, I would rather see it taken out of the game than have it given to you on a silver platter just because you saw it and your big, round greedy eyes liked what they saw.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:33:00 - [91] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Because to display it otherwise would require separate items for the wreck and the cargo cannister inside and that would cause even more lag so instead CCP decided to integrate the properties of the cargo cannister into the properties of the wreck and trust people to work out the difference. You're right Adonis, but some folks seem to have discovered the amazing powers of positive thought. Convince yourself long and hard enough that something is true, and it becomes so.
Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:39:00 - [92] CCP dude, il do a trade. Allow me to scan for wreaks and then the whiney mission runners can have there wreaks in there mission
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:42:00 - [93] Originally by: Rooker A wreck belongs to whoever destroyed the ship. It has their name on it. They can tractor it. If they decide to shoot at it, Concord doesn't warp in. If you killed it, it has your name on it and I shoot at it, Concord appears and I have to buy a new ship. If I take anything out of it, you can shoot at me. That very clearly establishes who is the owner and who is not. You just explained why the wreck is flagged to you. So you can tractor it, and so other people can't destroy it and the loot inside it just to spite you. But that doesn't make the salvage yours. The salvage is emphatically not yours or anybody's, not until it's actually extracted by somebody with the skill and the equipment to do so. Now you can say that's ridiculous if you want, that it's absurd that salvage belongs to the salvager, and that you deserve it instead. I'll disagree with you of course, but it's a reasonable discussion to have. But don't say that having the wreck flagged to you means you're meant to be the salvage owner, and that anybody else getting it is stealing. https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330 Originally by: Eve Online Support \| Wrecks When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explotion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs. Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.23 18:50:00 - [94] Originally by: JamnOne Prism, Just a couple of questions... 1.) How difficult would it be to move the missions around so bookmarks won't work on them? 2.) Is it possible to prevent missions from being scanned? I ask as the OP said it was here mission after she started it that got salvaged. It would leave one to believe that a. the missions are stationary and bookmarkable, and/or b. they could be scanned and located that way. You can be probed out in a deadspace just like anywhere else, though there is a large penalty to the success chance. As far as making them unprobeable, I find the idea repugnant. One server, one universe, no magically separated solo instances, thanks. The salvage issue would barely be on mission runners' radars if more understood this, and weren't running around in HiSec missions 99% isolated most of the time. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
JonnyWarhawk Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.23 19:56:00 - [95] Find them and kill them. That's all there is to it.
RuriHoshino Minmatar The Mission Guys	Posted - 2007.08.23 20:25:00 - [96] Originally by: JonnyWarhawk Find them and kill them. That's all there is to it. Find who, the salvage thief? And when you're in a 6-man corp and they're part of a historically large and PvP centric pirate 0.0 alliance? "Yay, we just wardecc'd an alliance with literally 200 times our numbers. THIS IS SPARTA!!!!" And then you spend the next week training AWU 5 because the second you undock anywhere a team of sniper bships pops whatever you're in. Fun times. I'm pretty torn on the issue because really, by most people's arguments neither the salvage nor the loot should get you flagged. How is it that you can "own" whatever modules belonged to the ship but not the ship itself? Logically there is no reason that usable modules should just pop off a ship when it's destroyed and collect themselves into a cargo container, while salvagable materials require special beam scanners to detect and extract. However, you cannot make them both equally accessible unless you intend to crash the salvage parts and, by extension, the rigs market, or make it impossible for newb characters to obtain the loot from their wrecks. Things are further complicated because despite the high value of some salvage parts, most people don't salvage. A buddy of mine has literally calculated the isk/sec of mission running, and Angel battleships are the only NPC that is worth your time to salvage, even if you have a ship dedicated to this purpose. In all other cases you make more money simply turning in the mission and getting the next one as quickly as you can. I think the LP store changed this a bit too, as people are now accruing loyalty points with specific goals in mind, and the fastest way to get the LP you need is to run combat missions one after the other and not bother with salvage. In both theses instances, I wouldn't mind someone coming along to clean up the wrecks. However, if I or a friend are actively salvaging during a mission and someone comes along and starts taking it out from under us, I would very much like to be able to shoot them. I think the best solution would be the compromise timer - 1 hr of "ownership", 1 hr of free to all, and the color of the wreck changed to reflect this. Whew, wall o text. Guess I needed to get that off my chest.
El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.08.23 20:38:00 - [97] Just fly missions in 0.0 space. As concord wrecks only leave 1 metal scrap per wreck (always) you won't have a problem with any salvage-ninjas out there. See? Problem fixed. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Mistress Miner	Posted - 2007.08.23 20:49:00 - [98] Next time that happens, immediately warp out of the mission. Certain missions with auto aggro will then likely have a decent chance of the NPC armada instapopping said salvaging ship.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.23 21:17:00 - [99] Originally by: Joshua Mendle If it was illegal to salvage something that someone else had destroyed, it wouldn't be called Salvage, it would be called "Wreck that someone else has destroyed that you cannot salvage from". Salvage as everyone knows (or I hope they do) belongs to nobody, until someone come along and takes it. Everyone should have salvage rights to a wreck, if they didn't you couldn't call it Salvage. If EVE is aiming at a totally realistic world, then it should mirror this one, ie keep salvage as it is. isn't that the same as saying the loot in a wreck isn't yours either? and around where i live to go into a salvage yard you have to pay for want you want. and the salvage yard pays people for things to throw in there.
wettestwillie Gallente Scotopia	Posted - 2007.08.23 21:29:00 - [100] On a different note, I think that the loot inside a wreck should belong to the person who laid the final blow and their corporation and gang. I'm tired of killing people on gates and stations just to have noob frigates take the loot that I've earned.
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.08.23 22:31:00 - [101] It's a shame exploration isn't as easy as probing mission runners. When I first tested probing outside of deadspace (looking for abandoned drones), I was amazed how fast I found them. I think I'll test this theory that probing mission runners is so easy that a caveman could do it. Oops. Sorry. I forgot you wanted to change salvaging and weren't concerned about how quickly he found you. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.08.23 23:06:00 - [102] I say leave salvage as it is. As a mission runner I have never has someone salvage my wrecks. Ever. Even only salvaging after I've claimed the mission. Honestly if you can't get back to your salvage before it's picked up or expired you're moving way too slowly. If you must change salvaging to flag anyone but the owner, put it on a timer that expires with the owner's aggression flag to the to the original owner (NPC, Player), then apply the same rule to loot. That should give 15 minutes of indulgence on mission kills, and 30 minutes on PvP kills. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting) WTS/WTB forums got a reprieve, so no ads
Fedaykin Naib 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.23 23:46:00 - [103] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." My point is not everyone salvages. Wrecks left behind by people who have no intention of salvaging them should not be used to trap salvagers into being flagged. Just like if you leave a can on the street and someone picks it up for recycling you're not allowed to report them to the police after beating the crap out of them. Hope that clarifies our stance somewhat. Like I said, we're looking into alternatives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was the arguement used by CCP for the first 2-3 years of eve as to why they wouldn't introduce flagging of cargo cans. Yet, they finally introduced this concept. BTW: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14828&page=1#1 I never got any credit for introducing the idea :P "Long Live the Fighters!"
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 00:21:00 - [104] Originally by: Fedaykin Naib Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." My point is not everyone salvages. Wrecks left behind by people who have no intention of salvaging them should not be used to trap salvagers into being flagged. Just like if you leave a can on the street and someone picks it up for recycling you're not allowed to report them to the police after beating the crap out of them. Hope that clarifies our stance somewhat. Like I said, we're looking into alternatives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was the arguement used by CCP for the first 2-3 years of eve as to why they wouldn't introduce flagging of cargo cans. Yet, they finally introduced this concept. I wasn't around for that, but ore theft is different in that the miner actually produces the ore through his skills and equipment. The "thief" neither produces it nor contributes to its production in any way. So from there it was just a question of whether to extend the possession flag to things jettisoned by the original owner. In contrast, salvage is directly produced by the salvager through -his- skills and equipment. No salvager, no salvage. He is, in effect, the miner in this case. Of course these mechanics can be changed for whatever reasons, but there is an underlying logic to how things currently work. Quote: BTW: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14828&page=1#1 I never got any credit for introducing the idea :P You have a lot of angry carebear threads to answer for. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Fedaykin Naib 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.08.24 00:50:00 - [105] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Fedaykin Naib Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." My point is not everyone salvages. Wrecks left behind by people who have no intention of salvaging them should not be used to trap salvagers into being flagged. Just like if you leave a can on the street and someone picks it up for recycling you're not allowed to report them to the police after beating the crap out of them. Hope that clarifies our stance somewhat. Like I said, we're looking into alternatives. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was the arguement used by CCP for the first 2-3 years of eve as to why they wouldn't introduce flagging of cargo cans. Yet, they finally introduced this concept. I wasn't around for that, but ore theft is different in that the miner actually produces the ore through his skills and equipment. The "thief" neither produces it nor contributes to its production in any way. So from there it was just a question of whether to extend the possession flag to things jettisoned by the original owner. In contrast, salvage is directly produced by the salvager through -his- skills and equipment. No salvager, no salvage. He is, in effect, the miner in this case. Of course these mechanics can be changed for whatever reasons, but there is an underlying logic to how things currently work. Quote: BTW: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=14828&page=1#1 I never got any credit for introducing the idea :P You have a lot of angry carebear threads to answer for. The relationship I was going for and from my understanding of how flagging works, if you blow up another persons ship and you get a wreck. If a third party comes and takes anything out of the wreck they are flagged, and can be also destoryed. Salvaging someone elses wrecks is exactly along the same lines. You created the wreck by blowing something up, if anybody does anything to it, they are flagged. Now, I haven't fought in empire in say a year perhaps, so I may not know all the intricies of the flagging system, but if you shoot someones wreck that flags you correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. "Long Live the Fighters!"
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 01:52:00 - [106] Originally by: Fedaykin Naib The relationship I was going for and from my understanding of how flagging works, if you blow up another persons ship and you get a wreck. If a third party comes and takes anything out of the wreck they are flagged, and can be also destoryed. Salvaging someone elses wrecks is exactly along the same lines. You created the wreck by blowing something up, if anybody does anything to it, they are flagged. Now, I haven't fought in empire in say a year perhaps, so I may not know all the intricies of the flagging system, but if you shoot someones wreck that flags you correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. You're at least flagged. Based on other angry carebear threads and not from personal experience, it sounds like you're not only flagged but Concordokkened. Regardless of which it is, I think the reasons for the npc wreck being flagged in the first place--and I am just guessing, but I believe it's a logical sort of guess--is to allow it to be tractored, and to protect the -loot- it contains. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 04:28:00 - [107] My god! I get sick for a day and a Dev hijack's my thread! It was a good read until it started getting into the high-sec vs low-sec issue. For those who say, go start pointing fingers and shouting "Carebear!", if I was that worried about pvp combat, I wouldn't be whining that I can shoot the creep in high sec. When I noticed that the guy looted one of my jet cans and flagged himself criminal (finally), I knew that I could have just been baited for a trap. It's a chance I take anytime I engage another player. The only reason why I don't want to switch to a low-sec/no-sec mission runner is very simple. I'm lazy! I don't feel like finding another agent and I don't feel like increasing my standing with another corp at the moment. It's an easier solution for me to just shove a high powered warhead up the exhaust fins of his ship. The problem I had is that if I did, "the man" would stick it to me.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 04:33:00 - [108] Originally by: Fedaykin Naib The relationship I was going for and from my understanding of how flagging works, if you blow up another persons ship and you get a wreck. If a third party comes and takes anything out of the wreck they are flagged, and can be also destoryed. Salvaging someone elses wrecks is exactly along the same lines. You created the wreck by blowing something up, if anybody does anything to it, they are flagged. Now, I haven't fought in empire in say a year perhaps, so I may not know all the intricies of the flagging system, but if you shoot someones wreck that flags you correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. If you loot someone elses wreck that you do not have permission to, you are flagged criminal. If you salvage someone elses wreck, regardless of permission, you will not be flagged. Currently, you can salvage anyone elses wreck at anytime, any where regardless of permissions. When someone salvages the wreck, if there was anying in the wreck at the time (other than the salvage), the wreck is converted into a cargo can after a successful salvage and follows normal rules.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 04:49:00 - [109] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun If you loot someone elses wreck that you do not have permission to, you are flagged criminal. If you salvage someone elses wreck, regardless of permission, you will not be flagged. Currently, you can salvage anyone elses wreck at anytime, any where regardless of permissions. When someone salvages the wreck, if there was anying in the wreck at the time (other than the salvage), the wreck is converted into a cargo can after a successful salvage and follows normal rules. So...if CCP tends to stay with the current issue that salvaging a wreck stays unflagged i vote for doing the same to looting. As it is the same thing...you may get shot for looting 100 50CapBooster and not for salvaging trit-bars (300000 isk min. each). Oh....and by the way...take concord away from every system lower then 1.0. So the new players can learn in 1.0 and the rest can smash each others heads in lower systems. As you know its a cruel world out there...... "Alea iacta est"
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.24 04:57:00 - [110] Originally by: Synical Light Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Captian Internet They aren't your wrecks they are property of the npcs you ganked for no good reason. .. but I owned them! It's true, technically you own them. Find someone else's wreck and select it, in your overview tab there should be a picture of the person who killed it, which I guess means that they own it. you missed the piont.. lol she OWNED them. get it, owned? haha? ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 05:21:00 - [111] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 24/08/2007 05:21:26 Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Fedaykin Naib The relationship I was going for and from my understanding of how flagging works, if you blow up another persons ship and you get a wreck. If a third party comes and takes anything out of the wreck they are flagged, and can be also destoryed. Salvaging someone elses wrecks is exactly along the same lines. You created the wreck by blowing something up, if anybody does anything to it, they are flagged. Now, I haven't fought in empire in say a year perhaps, so I may not know all the intricies of the flagging system, but if you shoot someones wreck that flags you correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. If you loot someone elses wreck that you do not have permission to, you are flagged criminal. If you salvage someone elses wreck, regardless of permission, you will not be flagged. Currently, you can salvage anyone elses wreck at anytime, any where regardless of permissions. When someone salvages the wreck, if there was anying in the wreck at the time (other than the salvage), the wreck is converted into a cargo can after a successful salvage and follows normal rules. He was asking about what happens if somebody who doesn't have the wreck flagged to them decides to shoot it. I think the answer is rather...harsh, but I'm not sure. Do you know the answer? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.24 05:22:00 - [112] Dont change the way salvaging works apart from 1 small change. When a ship is destroyed it shows the Corps ticker of the ship that blew up. So If I kill a Serp, its the serp ticker, if I kill a player ship, its his corp ticker. Also, I want the funky disco light the civilian version has. ( note the civilian version only works in the n00b tutorial ) ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 05:24:00 - [113] Originally by: DarthMopp So...if CCP tends to stay with the current issue that salvaging a wreck stays unflagged i vote for doing the same to looting. As it is the same thing...you may get shot for looting 100 50CapBooster and not for salvaging trit-bars (300000 isk min. each). The funny thing is...that would probably solve 90% of the problem, though it would take a little while. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.24 05:28:00 - [114] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Fedaykin Naib The relationship I was going for and from my understanding of how flagging works, if you blow up another persons ship and you get a wreck. If a third party comes and takes anything out of the wreck they are flagged, and can be also destoryed. Salvaging someone elses wrecks is exactly along the same lines. You created the wreck by blowing something up, if anybody does anything to it, they are flagged. Now, I haven't fought in empire in say a year perhaps, so I may not know all the intricies of the flagging system, but if you shoot someones wreck that flags you correct? Please correct me if I am wrong. If you loot someone elses wreck that you do not have permission to, you are flagged criminal. If you salvage someone elses wreck, regardless of permission, you will not be flagged. Currently, you can salvage anyone elses wreck at anytime, any where regardless of permissions. When someone salvages the wreck, if there was anying in the wreck at the time (other than the salvage), the wreck is converted into a cargo can after a successful salvage and follows normal rules. gonna explain this again, im running out of small words though if you TAKE someones loot, you are stealing, if you salvage a piece of junk floating in space, you are cleaning you do not OWN the wreck Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 06:19:00 - [115] Originally by: Tortun Nahme gonna explain this again, im running out of small words though if you TAKE someones loot, you are stealing, if you salvage a piece of junk floating in space, you are cleaning you do not OWN the wreck Tortun, that's an opinion and it has one MAJOR flaw. If you shoot and blow up someone elses space ship (NPC or player), according to you, the waste left behind is a wreck and it is open season to anyone. As you said, it is not mine. So..... what's a cargo can that drops then? (Not referring to a Jet can that I create myself) It's still the crap that is left behind that wasn't mine to begin with. Should this be marked as open season to anyone as well? I think, YES! On both counts. Anyone should be able to loot anything at any given moment of time, anywhere ..... period. However, on the flip side, I should be able to prevent interlopers on stealing my crap anywhere and this includes high-sec. CCP changed the game mechanics to allow this with cargo and jet cans. They did this before wrecks even existed. They should do the same with wrecks. It's the same exact concept. However, instead of a pretty packaged silver box, the garbage left behind is in a twisted metal frame resembling the former ship. If people are going to argue symantecs (which is pointless), technically... all items left behind are part of the wreck. Which is why there are no more cargo cans unless someone salvages the wreck or it is a special case in a mission drop. The loot are items that belonged to the ship before you blew it up. Claiming that the loot is player owned and salvaging is a "civic duty" or "cleaning" is silly. They both come from the same souce. Items that you didn't own to begin with. So, why is it that when I kill a player or destroy an NPC vessel, I automatically own the ammo that drops, but not the burned control panels?
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.24 06:32:00 - [116] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Whine Whine I should go play another game where I risk nothing Whine Whine Lets apply your idea to Asteroids, if your in a belt mining, do you own all the ateroids there ? If your mining an Asteroid, is it yours ? Should I be flagged for mining "your" roid ? Risk Vs Reward By not salvaging the wrecks as you make them you risk them being salvaged by someone else. Just because it has your Corp ticker on it means nothing other than it shares code with the cans. If you dont mission in a hub you lower the chance of them being taken. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
RaTTuS BIG	Posted - 2007.08.24 07:50:00 - [117] As opposed to a timer , make it so if the owner goes out of the Grid then the loot is both salvageable and lootable [well not nessassery the latter but you get my drift] -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.24 08:19:00 - [118] Originally by: DarthMopp As it is the same thing...you may get shot for looting 100 50CapBooster and not for salvaging trit-bars (300000 isk min. each). Oh....and by the way...take concord away from every system lower then 1.0. So the new players can learn in 1.0 and the rest can smash each others heads in lower systems. As you know its a cruel world out there...... Thanks Darth, you have jogged something in my mind. I now know another reason why comparing the loot in the can with the salvageable components in the wreck is like comparing apples and oranges ... On the one hand, loot just sits there in the can, viewable to all without any skill whatsoever required. With hardly any effort, the owner can look inside and quickly decide whether it's worth taking. A potential loot thief can do the same: he can look, but will only get flagged if he takes. On the other hand, no one even knows if there are any salvageable components in the wreck until a salvager is used and sometimes several attempts made. Even an Angels Battleship can turn out to be a dud, whereas a tiny frigate could have a couple of trit bars or melted consoles if you're super lucky. But killing the rat does not grant the shooter any inside knowledge about the value of the salvage: only using a salvager reveals this knowledge. So: loot = items first made accessible by -- and whose value is first revealed by -- the shooter who uses the tools and skills required for that particular job (pew pew) salvage = items first made accessible by, and whose value is first revealed by, the salvager using the tools and skills required for that particular job (rip yank tear crowbar) But! you cry. Without wrecks, there would be no salvage! Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are just god's agent in this case. Ashes to ashes, etc etc. Someone's got to populate the universe with wrecks because they are the salvage-component-containing "asteroids" of this game. But wrecks appearing out of nothing wouldn't be very immersive, now would they?
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.24 08:26:00 - [119] Originally by: syphurous Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Whine Whine I should go play another game where I risk nothing Whine Whine Lets apply your idea to Asteroids, if your in a belt mining, do you own all the ateroids there ? If your mining an Asteroid, is it yours ? Should I be flagged for mining "your" roid ? Risk Vs Reward By not salvaging the wrecks as you make them you risk them being salvaged by someone else. Just because it has your Corp ticker on it means nothing other than it shares code with the cans. If you dont mission in a hub you lower the chance of them being taken. Very good point syphurous. People who say that the ownership tag applies to the wreck as well as to the container inside it: why is there no ownership tag on an asteroid when you start mining it? The asteroid also contains valuables that you are extracting ... if it is "logical" that ownership applies to the wreck as well as its contents, why is it "logical" that ownership does not apply to the roid, but only to its contents?
Kieran Jarnush	Posted - 2007.08.24 08:28:00 - [120] imo cans & wrecks should belong to the corp for about 45 minutes, and become "free for all" after the timeperiod. this way everyones happy :p
annoing Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.08.24 08:33:00 - [121] hmmmm so you dont like him taking your salvage? Every time he shows just attack him. Hopefully if you are doing this missions you are seriously protected enough to take a bit of npc damage while you throw a bit of damage towards the salvager. Either that or shut up about it. CCP made it clear that salvaging is a profession within the game. While I havent taken someones elses salvage myself, every time I Directional Scan in a system known for missions, I come across loads of wrecks in the result. Hes taking advantage of the situation. Actually, this gives me an idea.............
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 08:49:00 - [122] Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: DarthMopp As it is the same thing...you may get shot for looting 100 50CapBooster and not for salvaging trit-bars (300000 isk min. each). Oh....and by the way...take concord away from every system lower then 1.0. So the new players can learn in 1.0 and the rest can smash each others heads in lower systems. As you know its a cruel world out there...... Thanks Darth, you have jogged something in my mind. I now know another reason why comparing the loot in the can with the salvageable components in the wreck is like comparing apples and oranges ... On the one hand, loot just sits there in the can, viewable to all without any skill whatsoever required. With hardly any effort, the owner can look inside and quickly decide whether it's worth taking. A potential loot thief can do the same: he can look, but will only get flagged if he takes. On the other hand, no one even knows if there are any salvageable components in the wreck until a salvager is used and sometimes several attempts made. Even an Angels Battleship can turn out to be a dud, whereas a tiny frigate could have a couple of trit bars or melted consoles if you're super lucky. But killing the rat does not grant the shooter any inside knowledge about the value of the salvage: only using a salvager reveals this knowledge. So: loot = items first made accessible by -- and whose value is first revealed by -- the shooter who uses the tools and skills required for that particular job (pew pew) salvage = items first made accessible by, and whose value is first revealed by, the salvager using the tools and skills required for that particular job (rip yank tear crowbar) But! you cry. Without wrecks, there would be no salvage! Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are just god's agent in this case. Ashes to ashes, etc etc. Someone's got to populate the universe with wrecks because they are the salvage-component-containing "asteroids" of this game. But wrecks appearing out of nothing wouldn't be very immersive, now would they? Someone missed the sarcasm in my posting... After all i am tired about discussing this. You are right and i do have my peace I will play EvE the way it suits me...and noone (except for ccp ) can change this...no matter how those uber-pro-skillOrz call me lol "Alea iacta est"
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.24 09:16:00 - [123] Originally by: DarthMopp Comparing Asteroids to Wrecks is also wrong...as asteroids are just there spawning day by day.... the wrecks are in fact "produced" by the mission runners... They are randomly spawned in a location to save on server load. Complexes respawn the same as belts. Both generate an income. Both have require your ship to be setup for it. They are an income source the same belts. Belts and missions are free to find, belt however are marked for your convenience. The comparison is quite aceptable. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.24 09:18:00 - [124] Originally by: DarthMopp Edited by: DarthMopp on 24/08/2007 09:04:10 Edited by: DarthMopp on 24/08/2007 09:03:49 edit.: PS.: Comparing Asteroids to Wrecks is also wrong...as asteroids are just there spawning day by day.... the wrecks are in fact "produced" by the mission runners... I think I addressed that in my last paragraph??? With regards to the production of wrecks, the mission runners (and ratters and whoever else produces wrecks) are just the Hand of God.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 10:16:00 - [125] Searching for lame excuses to get easy money without putting any risk in it...now who is carebearing ? Who cares... "Alea iacta est"
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.24 10:30:00 - [126] Originally by: DarthMopp Searching for lame excuses to get easy money without putting any risk in it...now who is carebearing ? Who cares... No risk? For one thing, violence is not the only type of risk (and there is still that, both from rats if you warp into a mission in progress and from the mission-runner if he has enough balls to shoot you, Concord be damned). There is the risk that you can probe for an hour and come up empty handed, as just happened to me this morning. Also, what about effort, does that count for less than risk? Some things in like take no effort but are hella risky (put it all on black and let it ride, croupier).
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 11:05:00 - [127] Complexes are always at the same spot...no use in searching them. Who will put his BS/BC at risk only because some "professional salvager" is salvaging the wrecks ? I dont want to be killed by concord just because of trying to protect "my" salvage and shooting a tinfoil salvager ! Thats why i said "no risk" for the salvager. So...as long as we have a status quo in EvE where wrecks can be salvaged by everybody who has the skills and equipment for it then theres no use for having an argument about it. You may regard it as a business...me for my part i think its stealing... may the faster one win "Alea iacta est"
Iyanah Minmatar Mining Munitions and Mayhem R i s e	Posted - 2007.08.24 11:58:00 - [128] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Originally by: Sirial Soulfly Hey another salvage doesnt get people flagged post. I figured there were several.. but, maybe next time I will make a post about how this forum doesn't have a search feature to avoid several posts on the same subject. I don't spend much time on the forum unless I have a need. So, I wouldn't have known. yes it does. top right of the screen. enjoy. on the salvage side of things, i'll say what i always say: 1) not everyone has salvaging, so they leave wrecks floating and someone else comes to clean it up - it's irritating for those people to get flagged when really there's no need. 2) if you want to salvage your stuff, salvage it. if someone beats you to it, then that just means that it sucks to be you. deal with it. move on. 3) a perfectly valit solution exists, wherin you get an alt/friend/girbil to fly in a salvage boat as soon as you get agro, they salvage the wrecks, and so on. so you have to take a friend in to your missions and potentially split the proffits, thus slowing down your progress to your third faction fitted navy raven for solo-mission running. boo freaking hoo. welcome to eve. ========================================== Iy please remember: I AM a sarcastic ******* and nothing i say has ever represented the thoughts or feelings of my corp, alliance, or anyone really. read
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:12:00 - [129] Originally by: annoing hmmmm so you dont like him taking your salvage? Every time he shows just attack him. Hopefully if you are doing this missions you are seriously protected enough to take a bit of npc damage while you throw a bit of damage towards the salvager. Either that or shut up about it. "Every time he shows just attack him." I would love to, but you can't. If you do, Concord destroys your ship. I was able to once (and did), because he tried looting one my cans. I took the chance thinking it could be a trap, but I'm not afraid of shooting a little space turd.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:14:00 - [130] Quote: 1) not everyone has salvaging, so they leave wrecks floating and someone else comes to clean it up - it's irritating for those people to get flagged when really there's no need. Thats an opinion i am willing to share...and a point i did not think about as its usual business for me to salvage all the wrecks left after a mission. Forgot that not everybody does salvaging. There you are right....no need to flag if somebody is unable to salvage at all. "Alea iacta est"
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:22:00 - [131] Edited by: Tethraa KaiSuun on 24/08/2007 12:23:18 Originally by: Iyanah yes it does. top right of the screen. enjoy. on the salvage side of things, i'll say what i always say: 1) not everyone has salvaging, so they leave wrecks floating and someone else comes to clean it up - it's irritating for those people to get flagged when really there's no need. 2) if you want to salvage your stuff, salvage it. if someone beats you to it, then that just means that it sucks to be you. deal with it. move on. 3) a perfectly valit solution exists, wherin you get an alt/friend/girbil to fly in a salvage boat as soon as you get agro, they salvage the wrecks, and so on. so you have to take a friend in to your missions and potentially split the proffits, thus slowing down your progress to your third faction fitted navy raven for solo-mission running. boo freaking hoo. welcome to eve. Yeah, your four days to late on that little helpful bit of info. Where the hell were you!? 1) Same could be said about cargo cans. Why not allow everyone to leech off of everything you do and hide behind concord while doing it. The people who spew out this drivel make me laugh, because in reality, they are the ones that don't want to fight. You won't catch them EVER doing this in 0.0 because they know they will be podded in a heart beat. 2) There are several missions that have extremely short timers between waves. The particular mission I was on Enemies Abound (part 5) while solo. This means that it is all I can do to whipe out all the waves before they pile up on me. 3) I'm greedy. Deal with it! Incidentally, I only have use for a single Caldari Navy Raven. Why would I want to waste the money on two others when I have other toys to spend money on and GTC codes to buy.
Minirags	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:25:00 - [132] Even though I have have wrecks stolen from me from a L4 mission, and left a sour taste in my mouth, I don't think this needs to change. Yes it had a sour taste but at the player, not CCP or Eve-O. The good thing about this game is us, the players, decide how to react to the game world. I played WoW for years, and if someone came along and "stole" my mine or animal kills for leather, I couldn't do anything if he was same side as me, or I was on a PvE server. But this is a PvP game, and no one is on my side (except corp/alliance mates in a player corp). I run missions in secure space, hoping to make enough money to be able to support myself in a 0.0 environment, and be able to afford to lose a few ships. I run a destroyer for my looting/salvaging. If I come across someone who is stealing my wrecks while I am doing the mission, I'll just blow up the wrecks. If I'm looting, I'll go grab my Raven and come back, and blow up the wrecks. If I can't profit from my work, these slime balls won't either. But on the other hand, when I'm flying in my destroyter, and see a Yellow player wreck, its nice to know I can go salvage that wreck with no consequence.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.24 12:57:00 - [133] Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:59 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:08 Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Edited by: Tethraa KaiSuun on 24/08/2007 12:23:18 The people who spew out this drivel make me laugh, because in reality, they are the ones that don't want to fight. You won't catch them EVER doing this in 0.0 because they know they will be podded in a heart beat. Hah, as if the high-sec mission runners who start these threads are flying any missions in low-sec or 0.0 to be salvaged in the first place? They'd wet their flight suits at the first sniff of yarr. Salvagers would be the least of their worries.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 13:43:00 - [134] Edited by: DarthMopp on 24/08/2007 13:43:56 Originally by: Bart Roberts Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:59 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:08 Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Edited by: Tethraa KaiSuun on 24/08/2007 12:23:18 The people who spew out this drivel make me laugh, because in reality, they are the ones that don't want to fight. You won't catch them EVER doing this in 0.0 because they know they will be podded in a heart beat. Hah, as if the high-sec mission runners who start these threads are flying any missions in low-sec or 0.0 to be salvaged in the first place? They'd wet their flight suits at the first sniff of yarr. Salvagers would be the least of their worries. Good for us we are sitting naked in some jellygoo-filled pods...no one will recognize if we wet our "pants" A big hooray for our fearless 0.0 Veterans who make EvE so special ! Your way is the only way. "Alea iacta est"
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.24 14:48:00 - [135] The whole "salvage theft" lobbying just highlights how greedy and stupid carebears can be. Can flagging made highsec piracy so much easier and rewarding. Guess what would happen if salvaging gave aggro ? Highsec mission probers would look for semi-AFK drone boats , salvage some wrecks , and catch drone aggro in order to kill the mission runner. Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.08.24 14:57:00 - [136] Originally by: Stakhanov The whole "salvage theft" lobbying just highlights how greedy and stupid carebears can be. Can flagging made highsec piracy so much easier and rewarding. Guess what would happen if salvaging gave aggro ? Highsec mission probers would look for semi-AFK drone boats , salvage some wrecks , and catch drone aggro in order to kill the mission runner. The whole "this is just a carebear whine" just highlights how ignorant and self absorbed people who don't run missions can be. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.24 15:13:00 - [137] Originally by: CCP Prism X I just poked game design about this. They said they'd look into alternatives to the current situation. The original problem was that the entire profession was jeopardized, when salvaging flagged you, as people would wait in hiding until an unsuspecting salvager showed up to salvage wrecks they had no interest in and summarily explodied him.. but perhaps we can arrive on a better solution. It'd be really cool if mission runners could sell/donate their wrecks, or have special salvage agents that give you coordinates to other people's wrecks that are clearly not going to be cleaned up. Like take the time it would normally take a can/wreck to despawn, and after that time runs out, there no longer is an owner, and the salvager agent gives out the location. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
DarthMopp Gallente I.O.S. - I.D.I.O.T.s in outer Space	Posted - 2007.08.24 15:20:00 - [138] Originally by: Stakhanov The whole "salvage theft" lobbying just highlights how greedy and stupid carebears can be. Can flagging made highsec piracy so much easier and rewarding. Guess what would happen if salvaging gave aggro ? Highsec mission probers would look for semi-AFK drone boats , salvage some wrecks , and catch drone aggro in order to kill the mission runner. Hard to find somebody afk while flying a mission dont you think ? Well...at least if he is not completely drunk...i actually know somebody who lost his Abaddon cause he fell asleep while flying a LvL4.....to much booze equals shiploss "Alea iacta est"
Mnengli Noiliffe	Posted - 2007.08.24 16:59:00 - [139] Didn't read all 5 pages but in response to the dev at 1st page, EASY! Get over your greedy mentality and allow wrecks to live more than freaky 1 hour! Let them stay there for 4 or more hours. If the mission runner will want to salvage, he will probably do it within this time frame. After 4 hours (maybe more) the wreck ownership should reset and anyone should be free to salvage AND loot the cans. I think they need to live another hour or two after ownership reset.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:04:00 - [140] Originally by: Bart Roberts Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:59 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 24/08/2007 13:00:08 Hah, as if the high-sec mission runners who start these threads are flying any missions in low-sec or 0.0 to be salvaged in the first place? They'd wet their flight suits at the first sniff of yarr. Salvagers would be the least of their worries. Bart, I spent a fair share of time in 0.0. At one point I was living in DSA space (Omist at the time) for a bit. As I said before, the only reason why I am running missions in high sec (at the moment) is because I am way too lazy (casual) to grind up another corp standing. Yes, I admit that I am greedy and I am also lazy. However, it's real dumb to call people carebears when the "supposed carebears" are complaining that they can't attack someone (pvp). See the problem I have with understanding that logic? This could also work against me too. If someone is stealing the salvage and I am able to attack them, they could just be trying to ambush me with a corp mate. Then they could get some really nice modules from my battleship. I'm not really too worried about that though. This is a pvp game after all. So, let me pvp. Once again, I would like to point out, it's not very care bearish of me to want to pvp, now is it? And to those who say, that is exactly why they shouldn't allow wrecks to flag others as criminal... well.. sorry, but cargo cans already work like that. If you're dumb enough to get baited into grabbing someone elses crap, then you get what is coming to you.
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:10:00 - [141] Originally by: Stakhanov The whole "salvage theft" lobbying just highlights how greedy and stupid carebears can be. Can flagging made highsec piracy so much easier and rewarding. Guess what would happen if salvaging gave aggro ? Highsec mission probers would look for semi-AFK drone boats , salvage some wrecks , and catch drone aggro in order to kill the mission runner. Erm... that's a bad thing? I think that's great! Good way to clean out the AFK mission farmers and people that are using macros. Sounds to me like a bonus. In fact, no one has really posted any cons for making such a change. So far, the pros I see are; 1) Mission runners are able to protect their assets in high sec (so called carebears win) 2) Pirates can "trick" mission runners into attacking them and get some very nice faction mods and even more salvage (wannabee pirates afraid of 0.0 win) 3) Players will no longer will be able to run missions AFK or macroed in complete safety because of pirates able to gain drone aggro (the entire community wins) So... what's the problem here?
Verone Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:16:00 - [142] Originally by: Dictionary.com tr.v. sal+vaged, sal+vag+ing, sal+vag+es 1. To save from loss or destruction. 2. To save (discarded or damaged material) for further use. Salvage is the reclaimation of wreckage or materials left for dead. Just because you blow something up, legally you do not have the rights to salvage. If you find something and put your claim on it, under maratime law it's yours for the taking so long as it's in international waters. CCP gave the whiners their jetcan flagging when people were looting them. Salvage by defenition is a free for all, and should remain that way. Do you also get annoyed when someone comes along and skins your dead bears in World of Warcraft? >>> THE BEAUTY OF NEW EDEN <<<
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:34:00 - [143] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 24/08/2007 17:16:44 Originally by: Dictionary.com tr.v. sal+vaged, sal+vag+ing, sal+vag+es 1. To save from loss or destruction. 2. To save (discarded or damaged material) for further use. Salvage is the reclaimation of wreckage or materials left for dead. Just because you blow something up, legally you do not have the rights to salvage. If you find something and put your claim on it, under maratime law it's yours for the taking so long as it's in international waters. But it's first come first serve. CCP gave the whiners their jetcan flagging when people were looting them. Salvage by defenition is a free for all, and should remain that way. Do you also get annoyed when someone comes along and skins your dead bears in World of Warcraft? Going by that over used description any loot you get in the entire game is salvage. If you don't loot the contents of a cargo can that were once part of a ship before you destroyed it, the cargo can will eventually implode. This means that if you loot a cargo can, you have "saved the items from loss or destruction". In fact, you can even apply the same logic to the second definition as well. If you kill a player and loot the cargo, you have "saved the discarded modules that also happen to be damaged for further use". Which means that technically everything in the entire game is "salvage". By the above logic, that means that anything that drops in the entire game should be lootable by other players and if looted, Concord should kill the mission runner if they would like to do anything short of leaving about it. I'm sorry, but it sounds to me like the high-sec pirate wannabee's are grasping for straws. The maratime law comparison would be like comparing 0.0 space (or atleast low sec).
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:55:00 - [144] Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun In fact, no one has really posted any cons for making such a change. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=580679&page=3#82 As far as I'm concerned, the only "pro" is that hisec mission runners would get to make more money with less worry about interacting with other people. Those are actually negatives in my book, and just about everybody else loses. All the talk about how it'd also be nice for pirates looking to play with flagging is a red herring. They can already do that through looting wrecks or aiding NPCs. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:17:00 - [145] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun In fact, no one has really posted any cons for making such a change. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=580679&page=3#82 As far as I'm concerned, the only "pro" is that hisec mission runners would get to make more money with less worry about interacting with other people. Those are actually negatives in my book, and just about everybody else loses. All the talk about how it'd also be nice for pirates looking to play with flagging is a red herring. They can already do that through looting wrecks or aiding NPCs. I guess this is what confuses me. The mission runners aren't asking to interact less with other players. They are looking to attack players who try to cut in on their action. The mission runners who are asking for this change are willing to pvp and are placing their mission running ship as collateral to do so (if you loose, you loose your ship). The problem is that the pirates running around with 1 months worth of skills and in a ship costing less than 1m are not willing pvp. Hell, after a 1-1.5 hour mission, I would love to have someone try to do a little pvp out in high sec with me. Saves me the trip of having to head through the pipes. This is also what anoys me about those who start the whole care bear finger pointing nonsense. I am being called a carebear because I want to pvp in high-sec? Where is the logic in that.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:22:00 - [146] Oh, well if you're simply looking for PvP, I can suggest much more straightforward ways to get it than asking for changes to salvaging. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Tethraa KaiSuun	Posted - 2007.08.24 20:01:00 - [147] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Oh, well if you're simply looking for PvP, I can suggest much more straightforward ways to get it than asking for changes to salvaging. I was thiking that it would be nice if these high-sec pirates belonged to private corps. Then I could just set up a corp war and be done with it. Most of them (I am not saying all of them) tend to be low SP characters looking to make the fastest buck without working for it. So, they tend to stick to the NPC corps. Then, I realized that because they don't have the SP yet and don't stand a chance they would just quit there corp and join another.
Enxitrou	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:24:00 - [148] Edited by: Enxitrou on 27/08/2007 17:25:11 The solution that I see to this problem: Allow agentrunner to set up fee for salvaging his wrecks in character window. If player who salvages wrecks accepts that fee then he will be legally savaging wreck. If player who salvages wrecks rejects to pay fee then he is doing a crime. If agentrunner is going to salvage his wrecks he will just set up high fee. If agentrunner is not going to salvage his wrecks he should set up low enought fee to make savaging profitable, but high enought to not bother about his wrecks are salvaged by somebody. The problem I see to this solution is how to select that fee, but I think it is solvable.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:58:00 - [149] Originally by: Enxitrou Edited by: Enxitrou on 27/08/2007 17:25:11 The solution that I see to this problem: Allow agentrunner to set up fee for salvaging his wrecks in character window. If player who salvages wrecks accepts that fee then he will be legally savaging wreck. If player who salvages wrecks rejects to pay fee then he is doing a crime. If agentrunner is going to salvage his wrecks he will just set up high fee. If agentrunner is not going to salvage his wrecks he should set up low enought fee to make savaging profitable, but high enought to not bother about his wrecks are salvaged by somebody. The problem I see to this solution is how to select that fee, but I think it is solvable. Turn that around and I think you've got something. Agents now have the authority to give you exclusive salvage rights to mission wrecks, but will deduct 5% of your reward as an administration charge. Nobody will now request exclusive rights to their wrecks unless they really seriously intend to salvage them, but they can if they want to. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.28 10:07:00 - [150] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Enxitrou Edited by: Enxitrou on 27/08/2007 17:25:11 The solution that I see to this problem: Allow agentrunner to set up fee for salvaging his wrecks in character window. If player who salvages wrecks accepts that fee then he will be legally savaging wreck. If player who salvages wrecks rejects to pay fee then he is doing a crime. If agentrunner is going to salvage his wrecks he will just set up high fee. If agentrunner is not going to salvage his wrecks he should set up low enought fee to make savaging profitable, but high enought to not bother about his wrecks are salvaged by somebody. The problem I see to this solution is how to select that fee, but I think it is solvable. Turn that around and I think you've got something. Agents now have the authority to give you exclusive salvage rights to mission wrecks, but will deduct 5% of your reward as an administration charge. Nobody will now request exclusive rights to their wrecks unless they really seriously intend to salvage them, but they can if they want to. Good thinking. This would decrease cases of "if I can't have them, neither can anyone else" mentality. As long as the fee is high enough. How much are rewards for Lvl 4 missions -- would 5% be enough to ensure serious intent? And if the mission-runner chooses not to purchase exclusive rights, the agent puts the mission bookmarks on contract as soon as the mission is turned in. Contract only available for as long as the wrecks exist.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.28 11:11:00 - [151] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 23/08/2007 13:41:36 Originally by: Adonis 4174 To those talking about WoW, be aware that WoW does NOT feature the kind of protection people here are asking for. Anyone with the skill can skin the corpses of your enemies even though they can never take loot from them. Argh! You're right! Best put stop to this carefest immediately. But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. I <3 you Its not broken doesn't need a fix as many people have pointed out salvage isn't a CCP given right its optional and if someone happens to take that option before you then too bad, you still get the sec hits the bounties the standing increases and ofc the mission rewards and LP stop whining. --------- Liberty Rogues Website
Hergautr	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:33:00 - [152] Actually Salvage Theft now exploiting by trial players to make anouth ISK to pay for timecards. We have one player every day posting in our local language chat a reference to his another post how a new player can make 100 Millions ISK in 3 days and calling all newbies to do it and help him to destroy the agent running in the game. The problem is that on example in couple of system (like Motsu etc.) mission locations is too close to particular known places (like a sun) and basically it enough to drop 1 probe to fiund L4 missions objects. Then he teaching players scan for industrial ships or destroyers (mean mission is over and agent runner is lootin at this moment with non combat ship), wrap in and start salvadging and safe theft. CCP said itÆs legal, but it should not work this way. IMHO itÆs exploit because such mission location are known and can be scanned by trial accounts and there is no way to stop it. Than trial account can safe theft your wrecks and loot (they were teacher when player on destroyer or industrial ship on L4 mission = safe loot theft. Than so such players baying timecard for ISK and playing this game for free when you spending your time actually to make a money for them. I believe CCP most to find some solution when player, who canÆt even handle level 2 mission, have such access to L4 mission wrecks to make hundreds million ISKs. IMHO the dead space locations MUST not to be in scaned range from planets/moons etc. And player should not be possible to direct warp in on something scanned in dead space without using the acceleration gate, like the agent runner canÆt do it if mission was not over. I donÆt understand û why I canÆt warp in directly on my bookmark in dead space until the mission is over, but player who is not on the mission can scan and warp directly...
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:38:00 - [153] Originally by: Hergautr And player should not be possible to direct warp in on something scanned in dead space without using the acceleration gate, like the agent runner canÆt do it if mission was not over. I donÆt understand û why I canÆt warp in directly on my bookmark in dead space until the mission is over, but player who is not on the mission can scan and warp directly... I don't particularly think salvage needs "fixing", but I do think that is a pretty common sense good idea. Dead space should be equally dead space to everybody. If the mission runner needs to use the acceleration gate, so should someone using scanners. --------
Johli Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:05:00 - [154] I'm not sure if this has been suggested yet: Why not a salvage timer? When you blow up a rat (or whatever), the wreck is yours, but only for a certain amount of time (10 min?) If you don't salvage it in that time, the wreck is up for grabs. But if they take it while it's yours, you can shoot them. Should please the mission runners and the salvagers.
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:25:00 - [155] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 23/08/2007 14:00:05 ok... so basically the wrecks you create belong to the rats you blow up, therefor you should be concordokkened for salvaging them? your flawed logic is flawed. the system is fine as it is. it needs NO tweaking at all to improve the quality of eve. save the workhours for something worthwile, rather than than to cater the game even more to pointless whinage. IF we NEED to improve salvaging, id say the best thing would be more automatization, less clickwork. savaging/tractoring drones anyone? Don't talk to other people about flawed logic. Modules looted off wrecks are pieces of the ship you take and use or sell. Salvage components are pieces of the SAME ship that you ALSO use or sell (of equal or GREATER value than the modules). There is no difference . One is arbitrarily deemed theft if taken from you. The other is not. I don't do much in empire and so have no personal stake in how the mechanics of this is run. If people like it how it is, keep it, but don't delude yourself into thinking this is the right option because of any logical deduction. One method of stripping parts off a ship you've blown up for gain is available to only the person who blew up the ship. The other method of stripping parts off a ship you've blown up for gain is available to anyone who wanders by with zero repercussions. Trying to logically argue that there is any good reason why you should have more right to a ships armor plating, but not its' damaged armor plating or circuitry seems inherently flawed to me. Not to say that the arbitrary separation of the mechanics of how each method is treated does not serve EVE. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:32:00 - [156] Originally by: Hergautr I donÆt understand û why I canÆt warp in directly on my bookmark in dead space until the mission is over, but player who is not on the mission can scan and warp directly... Apparently some mission deadspaces are flawed like this, however you should be able to do the same thing in those specific missions. Personally, I'd bug report them as I find them. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:39:00 - [157] Originally by: Taipan Gedscho Edited by: Taipan Gedscho on 23/08/2007 14:26:53 if you want to change anything, make it so, that everybody that salvages a wreck gets a global criminal countdown. after all your stealing from the npc pilots sheesh. mechanix are fine This makes no sense. Do you propose that looting wrecks should be handled exactly how salvage is now (free for all)? I think that mostly everyone agrees that flagging anyone that ever kills loots or salvages an NPC ship would be counter productive to the idea of empire space and to the enjoyment of empire dwellers and mission runners. If you agree with the way looting is currently handled, there is no logical basis for not extending that to salvage. If you really like the idea of some loot being up for grabs and other loot not, then that is really just your preference. That doesn't mean that someone asking for salvage to be treated like its counterpart regular loot is any less logical than you. In the future please fix your posts to read something more accurate, such as: I like the mechanix just fine "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:55:00 - [158] When salvaging got introduced, nobody could salvage a wreck if it wasnt looted. This would prevent safe stealing without a thief timer. Then it got changed to the current system. You can salvage any wreck regardless of loot inside or not, leaving the "owner" of the wreck helpless because many ppl set a trap to kill those that shoot thiefs with thief timers. Ship lovers click here
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:58:00 - [159] Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: DarthMopp As it is the same thing...you may get shot for looting 100 50CapBooster and not for salvaging trit-bars (300000 isk min. each). Oh....and by the way...take concord away from every system lower then 1.0. So the new players can learn in 1.0 and the rest can smash each others heads in lower systems. As you know its a cruel world out there...... Thanks Darth, you have jogged something in my mind. I now know another reason why comparing the loot in the can with the salvageable components in the wreck is like comparing apples and oranges ... On the one hand, loot just sits there in the can, viewable to all without any skill whatsoever required. With hardly any effort, the owner can look inside and quickly decide whether it's worth taking. A potential loot thief can do the same: he can look, but will only get flagged if he takes. On the other hand, no one even knows if there are any salvageable components in the wreck until a salvager is used and sometimes several attempts made. Even an Angels Battleship can turn out to be a dud, whereas a tiny frigate could have a couple of trit bars or melted consoles if you're super lucky. But killing the rat does not grant the shooter any inside knowledge about the value of the salvage: only using a salvager reveals this knowledge. So: loot = items first made accessible by -- and whose value is first revealed by -- the shooter who uses the tools and skills required for that particular job (pew pew) salvage = items first made accessible by, and whose value is first revealed by, the salvager using the tools and skills required for that particular job (rip yank tear crowbar) But! you cry. Without wrecks, there would be no salvage! Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are just god's agent in this case. Ashes to ashes, etc etc. Someone's got to populate the universe with wrecks because they are the salvage-component-containing "asteroids" of this game. But wrecks appearing out of nothing wouldn't be very immersive, now would they? My god, just admit that in your opinion you like some loot to be gathered by only the destroyer of said ship and some loot to be gathered by the fastest there. Thats it. You like the arbitrary separation. All that other gibberish is like trying to convince me, logically, why Pepsi is better than Coke. There is nothing wrong with preferring one method over another, you don't need to try and justify it as if you can win an arguement that comes down to personal taste. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Hellspawn01 Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:59:00 - [160] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Enxitrou Edited by: Enxitrou on 27/08/2007 17:25:11 The solution that I see to this problem: Allow agentrunner to set up fee for salvaging his wrecks in character window. If player who salvages wrecks accepts that fee then he will be legally savaging wreck. If player who salvages wrecks rejects to pay fee then he is doing a crime. If agentrunner is going to salvage his wrecks he will just set up high fee. If agentrunner is not going to salvage his wrecks he should set up low enought fee to make savaging profitable, but high enought to not bother about his wrecks are salvaged by somebody. The problem I see to this solution is how to select that fee, but I think it is solvable. Turn that around and I think you've got something. Agents now have the authority to give you exclusive salvage rights to mission wrecks, but will deduct 5% of your reward as an administration charge. Nobody will now request exclusive rights to their wrecks unless they really seriously intend to salvage them, but they can if they want to. This is dangerous because ISK sellers could use this method to "wash" ISK. Ship lovers click here
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:06:00 - [161] Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: syphurous Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Whine Whine I should go play another game where I risk nothing Whine Whine Lets apply your idea to Asteroids, if your in a belt mining, do you own all the ateroids there ? If your mining an Asteroid, is it yours ? Should I be flagged for mining "your" roid ? Risk Vs Reward By not salvaging the wrecks as you make them you risk them being salvaged by someone else. Just because it has your Corp ticker on it means nothing other than it shares code with the cans. If you dont mission in a hub you lower the chance of them being taken. Very good point syphurous. People who say that the ownership tag applies to the wreck as well as to the container inside it: why is there no ownership tag on an asteroid when you start mining it? The asteroid also contains valuables that you are extracting ... if it is "logical" that ownership applies to the wreck as well as its contents, why is it "logical" that ownership does not apply to the roid, but only to its contents? If you want to talk about logical scenarios, then there is no reason why you would have any more right to some parts of a ship and not others. So either people get flagged for looting both or neither. You can twist it up as much as you want, but you have to really work at a backstory to make the above logical assumption invalid. Just give it up. You like the way mechanics work the way it is now. That's fine. Logic is not a part of your argument. You trying to claim logic as the basis of your argument is like watching someone try to pound the square block through the round hole. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:10:00 - [162] Originally by: syphurous Originally by: DarthMopp Comparing Asteroids to Wrecks is also wrong...as asteroids are just there spawning day by day.... the wrecks are in fact "produced" by the mission runners... They are randomly spawned in a location to save on server load. Complexes respawn the same as belts. Both generate an income. Both have require your ship to be setup for it. They are an income source the same belts. Belts and missions are free to find, belt however are marked for your convenience. The comparison is quite aceptable. So this means you are an advocate for free for all looting of everything all the time? Or that there should be a tagging method in order to be able to mine an asteroid? Not that I'm saying either is a bad thing (for me at least), would be hilarious to read the threads on general generated from this change. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:22:00 - [163] Gorefacer, the point isn't that the current system is the only logical possibility, it's that there is a valid logic behind it. You see this system as inconsistent, but only because you're stuck thinking of loot and salvage as the same thing. Personally, I can look at the logic either way, and I can also see the logic to -none- of it being flagged. But more importantly, I think the system as is makes for a better and more interesting game than the other possibilities. Great sig, by the way. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:25:00 - [164] Originally by: Verone Edited by: Verone on 24/08/2007 17:16:44 Originally by: Dictionary.com tr.v. sal+vaged, sal+vag+ing, sal+vag+es 1. To save from loss or destruction. 2. To save (discarded or damaged material) for further use. Salvage is the reclaimation of wreckage or materials left for dead. Just because you blow something up, legally you do not have the rights to salvage. If you find something and put your claim on it, under maratime law it's yours for the taking so long as it's in international waters. But it's first come first serve. CCP gave the whiners their jetcan flagging when people were looting them. Salvage by defenition is a free for all, and should remain that way. Do you also get annoyed when someone comes along and skins your dead bears in World of Warcraft? Ah so it seems logical to you that its "legal" to kill a ship with a crew of hundreds or thousands and then strip the ship of many of its components, but not to have the "legal" rights to strip said ship of the rest of it's components? So apparently RL maritime law somehow applies to this situation, I guess everything in EVE can be judged accordingly, right? (Lengthy legal trials for every NPC ship you shoot sound fun?) Most people do missions for ISK. The salvage is normally worth more than the loot ISK wise. In WOW people usually kill bears for exp, if the skins were worth more exp than killing the bears, then yes I bet they would be upset. Man I don't even have a problem with the way the current mechanics are set up. Just the things people try and pass off as good arguments. Especially considering the only one they need is "I like it better this way". "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Gorefacer	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:34:00 - [165] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Gorefacer, the point isn't that the current system is the only logical possibility, it's that there is a valid logic behind it. You see this system as inconsistent, but only because you're stuck thinking of loot and salvage as the same thing. Personally, I can look at the logic either way, and I can also see the logic to -none- of it being flagged. But more importantly, I think the system as is makes for a better and more interesting game than the other possibilities. Great sig, by the way. Actually I agree with you. I've never challenged that the current mechanic isn't more interesting to many people than other possibilities, but it isn't MORE logical than other possibilities. People who are trying to pass that off are the ones my posts refer to. I actually have finished and salvaged hundreds of missions with 0 salvager "thieves". I am also now preoccupied with 0.0 and have no interest in doing missions in the near future. So my arguments are not intended to make it sound like the current system is "flawed" or a "problem" at all. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:43:00 - [166] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Gorefacer, the point isn't that the current system is the only logical possibility, it's that there is a valid logic behind it. You see this system as inconsistent, but only because you're stuck thinking of loot and salvage as the same thing. Personally, I can look at the logic either way, and I can also see the logic to -none- of it being flagged. But more importantly, I think the system as is makes for a better and more interesting game than the other possibilities. Great sig, by the way. Actually I agree with you. I've never challenged that the current mechanic isn't more interesting to many people than other possibilities, but it isn't MORE logical than other possibilities. People who are trying to pass that off are the ones my posts refer to. I actually have finished and salvaged hundreds of missions with 0 salvager "thieves". I am also now preoccupied with 0.0 and have no interest in doing missions in the near future. So my arguments are not intended to make it sound like the current system is "flawed" or a "problem" at all. Since you cherrypicked a lot of my comments, I might as well chip in and point out that I did not claim that my POV was more logical, either. I was just pointing out some of the many arguments that can be used on my side of the debate that are just as logical as those that were being thrown out to support the other side. Please feel free to go back and read the whole thread for a better understanding of the context, but don't worry, I won't blame you if you don't. This thread is getting to be one long mutha****a.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:49:00 - [167] Quote: Actually Salvage Theft now exploiting by trial players to make anouth ISK to pay for timecards. rofl how is that exploiting ? hes just trying to make enough ISK to play the game.
Bart Roberts	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:57:00 - [168] Edited by: Bart Roberts on 29/08/2007 12:04:08 Edited by: Bart Roberts on 29/08/2007 11:58:34 Originally by: Steve Hawkings Quote: Actually Salvage Theft now exploiting by trial players to make anouth ISK to pay for timecards. rofl how is that exploiting ? hes just trying to make enough ISK to play the game. It isn't an exploit in the technical sense, but I do agree that trial players shouldn't be able to do it. Actually, I'd be interested in knowing exactly how this is happening. OK, maybe trial players can train up enough skills in 14 days to be able to do the actual salvaging, but how do they train up enough skills to do the probing? Or is there always a more experienced ringleader who does the scanning and then gangs the newbs to his position? And is this**an-figure also supplying the newbs with the necessary funds and equipment? Edit: Hey CCP, can't I even quote the name of a character from a Charles *ens novel without getting 'ed?
Gorek Loc Fine Art Manufactury	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:15:00 - [169] Originally by: Tarminic Just warp out of the mission whenever he shows up. If he decides to stick around or show up ten minutes later, he'll have a very unpleasant surprise. Very nice solution. he'll lose his ship in seconds! --- Compare items ? Image 1 - Image 2 Thanks to Daetusk.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:19:00 - [170] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: iiOs salvagers shouldnt salvage that isnt theirs to salvage, end of story, its same as taking some ones else cargo cans Not entirely correct. Think of these two examples: "You leave your brand new Lexus out on the street and I come along and car-jack it, take it to a garage, scrap all the valuable parts from it and sell them." VS "You leave your ancient Trabant at a car graveyard and I come along and scrap the valuable parts from it and use them to recreate my own Trabant." With all due respect I don't think your counter argument holds water. It goes wrong on the third word, "your". That brand new Lexus, does not belong to you. It belongs to Mr True Sansha, or that Ammatar Navy Captain, and you just firebombed it. Besides I think there is enough confusing arbitary rules for new players as it is, adding another, "You can salvage this wreck, after Sunday, when the wind blows from the South, and only if you stand on one leg" does not add anything to the game. Es and Whizz is recruiting
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:25:00 - [171] Stop mission running in hubs, and stop whining that the game doesn't follow your rules. CCP made salvaging for anyone to do, it is how they intended, not how you wanted it. Eve is not your game, if you dont like the rules, go play another game. If I was mission running and someone appeared and started salvaging I'd be annoyed, but I'd accept the fact that the game rules say that is how it is. If you want to be able to take control of the situation go join an alliance and play in 0.0. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
Mal Renolds Caldari Team America World Cops	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:44:00 - [172] Edited by: Mal Renolds on 30/08/2007 10:44:08 Originally by: syphurous Stop mission running in hubs, and stop whining that the game doesn't follow your rules. CCP made salvaging for anyone to do, it is how they intended, not how you wanted it. Eve is not your game, if you dont like the rules, go play another game. If I was mission running and someone appeared and started salvaging I'd be annoyed, but I'd accept the fact that the game rules say that is how it is. If you want to be able to take control of the situation go join an alliance and play in 0.0. Eve isnt your game either you seem to want to pound the wardrum on this . Expliots exist in eve and its up to the playerbase to point them out . The fact that loot isnt as good as it used to be because "salvage is firgured in" well since players figured in salvage is getting took without there permission or without penalty to the thieves themselfs. If the internet tough guy aproach that "PVP in eve is consented to the minute you log in" why cant I scrag the lil newb in his npc corp the minute the heron salvages one of my wrecks ! Its one sided grief plain and simple and there isnt a way for the person whos being stolen from to retaliate. And the coward whos alt it is that stealing the loot isnt even using his main to do it
Dimagus	Posted - 2007.08.30 10:55:00 - [173] Edited by: Dimagus on 30/08/2007 10:56:56 Disable salvaging on trial accounts along with the host of other skills that can be exploited. This is becoming increasingly common recently, as I've seen and heard about a host of <21 day characters going into missions for salvage theft. Usually it's one main guy, or a couple in the major system hubs who are only paying for one account that has decent scanning skills. They then just farm up trial accounts for salvaging, scan missions down with their main char, and send in the throw-away characters to salvage multiple missions simultaneously, for free. Flag the skillbook, so at least the thieves are forced to do their own dirty work.
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:26:00 - [174] Originally by: Mal Renolds Stuff You see your main problem is believing that you own the wrecks, you dont. but my corp ticker / picture is on the wreck", it shares code with secure cans, thus it has those. It also lets you check to see if the owner of any loot is still about so that you may take any nice loot. Anyone is allowed to steal loot, its a game mechanic, just because you dont do it, doesn't mean its a exploit. Like I've stated previously, the wrecks should be marked with the corp ticker of the ship owner the wreck was made from, the loot should / can should be marked by the player who did the pew pew. If the issue is n00b accounts, stop them from being able to probe. Stopping them from salvaging means they cant do it as a mini profession. They loose a choice, choice is what makes Eve so great. Not to mention the n00b story arcs would have to be re-written. How are mains using n00b accounts when you cant have a trial and a paid account running at the same time ? I know there's a few ways, but whos to say there's not one player getting actual n00bs to salvage for him and in return setting them up. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
RaTTuS BIG	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:27:00 - [175] 14days is trial limit, so 21day is a normal account, -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:34:00 - [176] Originally by: Gorefacer Originally by: Bart Roberts Originally by: syphurous Originally by: Tethraa KaiSuun Whine Whine I should go play another game where I risk nothing Whine Whine Lets apply your idea to Asteroids, if your in a belt mining, do you own all the ateroids there ? If your mining an Asteroid, is it yours ? Should I be flagged for mining "your" roid ? Risk Vs Reward By not salvaging the wrecks as you make them you risk them being salvaged by someone else. Just because it has your Corp ticker on it means nothing other than it shares code with the cans. If you dont mission in a hub you lower the chance of them being taken. Very good point syphurous. People who say that the ownership tag applies to the wreck as well as to the container inside it: why is there no ownership tag on an asteroid when you start mining it? The asteroid also contains valuables that you are extracting ... if it is "logical" that ownership applies to the wreck as well as its contents, why is it "logical" that ownership does not apply to the roid, but only to its contents? If you want to talk about logical scenarios, then there is no reason why you would have any more right to some parts of a ship and not others. So either people get flagged for looting both or neither. You can twist it up as much as you want, but you have to really work at a backstory to make the above logical assumption invalid. Just give it up. You like the way mechanics work the way it is now. That's fine. Logic is not a part of your argument. You trying to claim logic as the basis of your argument is like watching someone try to pound the square block through the round hole. To add to Gorefacer post: empty wrecks have the owner tag too. So it has nothing to do with the content.
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:45:00 - [177] Originally by: Venkul Mul To add to Gorefacer post: empty wrecks have the owner tag too. So it has nothing to do with the content. No it has to do with shared code. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.08.30 11:47:00 - [178] I'm biased. I like my idea best. - Gives people a chance to play with getting flagged if they wish. - Gives original "owner" a grace period to get their stuff if they are quick enough. - Let's people grab abandoned stuff without having to worry about cloaked SBs or whatnot. - Gives full time salvager's a tractor-able target. It's just full of win. \o/ Listen to Roy. Roy loves you all... ------------------- Must read player written Eve fiction.

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