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Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.
I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.
So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ? |

Raneru
Euphoria Released 0ccupational Hazzard
28
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0.
The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them. |

Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Raneru wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0. The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them.
Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates. |

Karl Planck
Heretic University Heretic Nation
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Raneru wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0. The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them. Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.
I think i would honestly die of laughter from all of the rage surrounding suicide ganking haulers |

Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:38:00 -
[5] - Quote
This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you) and improve the rewards on courrier contracts.
It would also help freeing up some 0.0 space, by reducing fleet mobility and thus the space an alliance can defend.
On the other hand, it would give ratters and miners a bit more time to safe up when a red enters local.
As I said, I never knew the game without the warp to 0 feature, but I would love to try it. |

Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates. Well if they did it now, it would make hauling stuff and travelling in every system outside highsec very dangerous. There wouldn't be any chance to avoid gatecamps anymore. Resulting in people staying away from those areas, which aren't very densely populated to start with anyway. Why would you want that? |

Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:54:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cathy Drall wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates. Well if they did it now, it would make hauling stuff and travelling in every system outside highsec very dangerous. There wouldn't be any chance to avoid gatecamps anymore. Resulting in people staying away from those areas, which aren't very densely populated to start with anyway. Why would you want that?
Providing adrenaline and promoting balls ?
No, more seriously, for the reasons stated in my previous post and maybe improving the utility of Transport ships compared to Iteron V.
It could also act as an additional incent for players to fight against the gate campers rather than waiting for them to go away. There could be roams organised for cleaning up trade routes and break blockades.
Was 0.0 space completely empty before the implementation of warp to 0 ? |

Elisha Starkiller
Viziam Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:54:00 -
[8] - Quote
we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D |

Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 13:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Elisha Starkiller wrote:we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D
I am more scared of highsec TBH. Wardecs, suicide gankers, overcrowded local, so that it's hard to check for reds, etc... |

Doc Fury
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
219
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
Before WTZ traveling in EVE was a grind, even when using the DB killing bookmarks. It was argued that since there are plenty of other things in EVE that are a grind, something as simple as traveling should not be. If you played for 2 hours for instance, you could easily spend 40 minutes of that just trying to get somewhere, not fun when you are paying to "play".
It also discouraged players from spreading-out very far from wherever they first entered the game, and it took a lot less players to lag out a node back then. In the end, the load all the bookmarks was putting on the DB forced CCP to make the change, as it was common for a player to have thousands of these, and just the act of copying them (to sell) could lag out a node under certain circumstances. The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'no.' |

seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:10:00 -
[11] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Elisha Starkiller wrote:we want to encourage people to goto Low and Null sec! not scare them off! :D I am more scared of highsec TBH. Wardecs, suicide gankers, overcrowded local, so that it's hard to check for reds, etc...
OP sounds mad because he either failed to gank his target or is mad that they keep getting away, if I remember a few weeks ago there was several lossmails from bloodbound failing to gank a freighter because of some being afk  |

Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
163
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:11:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote: No, more seriously, for the reasons stated in my previous post and maybe improving the utility of Transport ships compared to Iteron V.
It could also act as an additional incent for players to fight against the gate campers rather than waiting for them to go away. There could be roams organised for cleaning up trade routes and break blockades.
Well I guess the thing is that for various reasons, a lot of people don't play in groups.
Some people live in different timezones or they may have jobs outside 9 to 5. Travel in EVE is very time consuming, it's very hard to gather a fleet just to transport some stuff while you could have earned a lot more ISK by doing Incursions for example. Add to that that you need to put a lot of ships at risk to defeat an organized gatecamp, just a t1 logistics cruiser won't do.
Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game. |

Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:23:00 -
[13] - Quote
Cathy Drall wrote: Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game.
I guess that's the best argument out there.
And Seany1212, FYI, I do not participate in gate camps, unless it's part of a CTA op. So I am not mad about anything, just curious about what I missed by joining the game so late. |

seany1212
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:29:00 -
[14] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Cathy Drall wrote: Games need content that can be done solo, otherwise it would make a lot of casual people stop playing the game.
I guess that's the best argument out there. And Seany1212, FYI, I do not participate in gate camps, unless it's part of a CTA op. So I am not mad about anything, just curious about what I missed by joining the game so late.
You didn't miss anything, people made warp to 0 bookmarks for a reason and then CCP made changes to reflect that, the best thing they kept was autopilot warping to 15. |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Most players want warp to zero on a gate, few want it gone. CCP is just listening to the customer base. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |

Marcus Harikari
Aegis Requiem.
10
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:46:00 -
[16] - Quote
I didn't play before this, but I can't imagine life without it. Next they need to implement autopilot-to-0. I don't see any reason why they haven't, yet. |

Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 14:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
It wasn't just the bookmark packs (regional WTZ bookmarks were sold on escrow in their thousands), there were a LOT of WTZ hacks/injections around back then. Edit - IIRC CCP nerfed bookmark copying and then the WTZ hack/injections started appearing.
So CCP finally saw sense - after the nerfbat of doom visited bookmark copying - and put in manual WTZ. Hell most of the server population was doing just that with BMs/hacks anyway. |

Kusariqqu
SQUINGEL The G0dfathers
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 14:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
I used to have around 3000 bookmarks before wtz came about, and i know lots of people with the same amount or even more in alot of cases.
Eve used to freeze up for at least 5 mins sometimes just opening my places and cans full of bms. It was to reduce lag from servers.
And for the noobs its was a god send cos it made pirating 100x more difficult, but in the process created a new style of play. No longer could a pirate sit at 15km from the direction of a gate and nab ppl, they had to play smarter or loose the kills.
I for one was all for the warp to zero, Hell just for the fact everytime i had to clear my catch it would take about 3 days to sort thro my bms and place them in there seperate folders. |

Mara Tessidar
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
378
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 15:07:00 -
[19] - Quote
I never figured out why CCP didn't put a bubble around gates, but meh. Current mechanics work okay. http://goo.gl/uX5vk |

Sentient Blade
Walk It Off Coalition of the Unfortunate
169
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 15:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you).
Good try, but no.
A properly fit T1 hauler of any kind (that's still capable of doing the job it was intended for) would explode in one or two vollys when coming up against most gank ship fits.
Warp to zero is a form of speed tank. |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:02:00 -
[21] - Quote
WTZ was CCPs fast and easy reaction to the problem of instabookmarks on gates. Personally I can understand why and how they did it this way, but I'd preferred another solution..
pro: - database doesn't get hammered (lag while copying/browsing) for all those BM's any more - ganks concentrate on the incoming instead of the outgoing (low/highsec) gate since then
con: - size of New Eden feels smaller since then (especially for noobs) - it removed a profession (it takes some skill to place a reliable insta bm at one of those small Amarr gates) - it removed some tactical advantage of the locals vs foreigners |

J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
81
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:08:00 -
[22] - Quote
The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate. |

Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
867
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:19:00 -
[23] - Quote
be a hero, warp to zero The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
191
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:26:00 -
[24] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Raneru wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
If you did that then people would make BM's at the other warp to ranges and still warp at 0. The BMs were putting a massive strain on the database as everybody had thousands. So it just made sense to eliminate the need for them. Ok, I understand the database issue. So why didn't they introduce a mechanic that would have you drop out at 15km min of the gates ? Like a warp disruption bubble, but only for incoming traffic. Or even for outgoing traffic while we are at it. Wouldn't be a big deal since you always come out at 12.5km off the gates.
Absolutely brilliant. BRILLIANT!!!
I've always wondered what an elegant solution would look like to the bookmark issue. One that would work completely independently of any sort of bookmarking. Now we have one. Gates would act like warp bubbles. Perfect. That solves every issue with "people would just make bookmarks 115km away".
As for the slowboating towards a gate AND AWAY from the gate- wow. That would really slow things down, but it might be nice to try. Something like this could totally change the way the game is played.
I would be up for something like this, but if it delays warp on both sides, maybe do 10km warp disruption radius instead of 15km, and we would have to do something about interdictor bubbles etc.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate. Imagine instead your ship could only make 10 LY/hr* on average, but you were free to choose the direction**. Still doom&Gloom?
*) average (shortest) distance of stars in New Eden: arithmetic mean: 0.882 LY, median: 0.837 LY [IMG=http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/4817/neshortestdistancegraph.th.jpg][/IMG] data source: shortest distances to interconnect all stars with their nearest neighbour(s)
**) every ship has got a jumpdrive and no more gates. Basic principle: You set your jumpdrive for another star and can jump there. |

Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
191
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:28:00 -
[26] - Quote
J3ssica Alba wrote:The economy would take a serious hit if warp to zero were changed. I do some freighter trips now and again and the amount of goods people have on courier contracts is huge, imagine if it were delayed by all the additional time to fly 15 k to each gate.
It totally wouldn't. Regional markets would have a reason to be regional again. Couriers would have a job again. Space would be big again. We would see traffic on gates again.
It's not like you would be the only one affected. ALL freighter pilots would be affected, hence, the change is totally fair. If people want something moved faster, they can use faster, smaller transports.
I'm a pirate in a pirate's body.-áIntelligence shouldn't be free... |

Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning, is fundamentally flawed and has been the cause of pretty much every problem ever. Also due to having so much built on it (to try to mitigate the problems caused by it) the core problem can never really be fixed. |

Lady Spank
Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED
1003
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 16:59:00 -
[28] - Quote
I remember Pirates switching to sensor boosting Drakes around that time. The change made space seem smaller surely but definitely made travel more viable... certainly more spontaneous as you could more safely travel without previously bookmarking your route. I feel slightly nostalgic for yet another dying skill in the game but it went at the right time really. (a¦á_a¦â) ~ http://getoutnastyface.blogspot.com/ ~ (a¦á_a¦â) -áGÖÑ New Years Resolution ~ Cease thy Smacktalk GÖÑ |

arcca jeth
Dark Alliance Dark Empire Alliance
55
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:01:00 -
[29] - Quote
before you advocate changing something, grab a freighter, set a 10 jump path and (even if empty) try flying there by only warping to 15k and then come back and post again.
OR instead of changing the game for everybody, you could change the way you play the game and OPT-IN by warping to 15k at your own will for everything that you do. Last I checked, you can still do so if you like, just turn on auto-pilot lol |

Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
165
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:12:00 -
[30] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning, is fundamentally flawed and has been the cause of pretty much every problem ever. Also due to having so much built on it (to try to mitigate the problems caused by it) the core problem can never really be fixed. Very true. I remember that when I started playing EVE I originally imagined that systems would be occupied and defended from planetary defence systems and sattelites, not something like jump gates which create artificial bottlenecks.
It's too bad in a way that battles seem to be mainly directed towards gates without use of radar or other tracking systems. |
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