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Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
26
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.
Because its not fun. Over time they have made travel faster, and its a good thing. After they removed the super highways and before warp to zero it could take a long time to move around. There weren't even jump clones. We aren't talking a little longer, we are talking hours. Imagine spending your play time for the day traveling so maybe you could play the next. Its not a good thing.
Iris Bravemount wrote:My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
Then you would just make 20km instas, or 30km, etc. You would have to get rid of bookmarks 100km around everything.
Iris Bravemount wrote:The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.
They align slow or have low ehp. Put up a bubble or grab them as they align. They are still pretty easy to catch. The only exception are blockade runners, but that is what they are made to do. Or don't even bother, even a "tanked" industrial is easy to alpha. The industrial type ships that do have alot of hp are sloooowwwww. If you can't tackle a ship that takes 15 seconds to align your doing something wrong.
Iris Bravemount wrote:I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.
So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?
It doesn't change much. You can just grab someone on the other side of the gate. Or you can just alpha their ship.
|

Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
292
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
1) Jumping / Teleporting would be unaffected by this, and thus it would just be a hassle to you poor people without a fleet of jump freighters. It would make the game really annoying for 1 year characters. The last thing CCP wants is to make the game more tedious for nubs. Before warp to zero in EvE, travel was one of the most highly criticized sticking points w/ game reviews.
2) F'in bookmarks. 50-100 mil / region for 3-500. F*** that. (I'd give mine away for next to nothin' and have a few warp points that took low sec logistics into my camp )
3) People in EvE are clever. The mechanic you are suggesting would be pretty complex, and as complexity increases so too do the options for a player "work around". It's playing w/ fire.
Warp to zero was met w/ cheers from all over the game. It was one of the best things CCP did. Why do you want to spit on our cupcake?
All GëíGêçGëí Ships | GëíGêçGëí - sñÜpüÅpü«sÑçsªÖpü¬péópéñpâåpâá | <-- Links to ShowInfo in-game
FX7 - No Tax... No Rules... No Problem |

Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
870
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning
warning? in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again?
you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning
and to the OP. there's plenty of stupid people auto piloting, quit crying about the ones who use their heads because the second one posts in here with gank rage everyone piles into the thread saying "play smarter"
just as they shouldn't be 100% safe, you shouldn't get 100% ganks either
we call that balance
The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |

Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:40:00 -
[34] - Quote
If we really thought a 15 km virtual warp bubble about each gate was a good idea, then the travel time thing can be be handled as a concurrent, balancing change.
Increase the agility and warp speed of the larger ships. Maybe increase the warp acceleration and warp speed of all ships. For freighters, buff the top speed a bit. That way it takes less time to get to warp, and less time in warp. That compensates for the need to slowboat 15 km.
But we still have the low sec issue: Without warp to zero people will avoid it even more than now. These are players who have no reason to show off their balls, and for whom adrenaline makes them feel drained and sick, and is to be avoided. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. Subscribers can never answer a question posed to CCP. Only CCP can. |

Montevius Williams
Eclipse Industrial Inc
200
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 17:40:00 -
[35] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:This would encourage players to THINK about their indy fits, encourage teamwork (have a buddy in a t1 repair cruiser escort you) and improve the rewards on courrier contracts.
It would also help freeing up some 0.0 space, by reducing fleet mobility and thus the space an alliance can defend.
On the other hand, it would give ratters and miners a bit more time to safe up when a red enters local.
As I said, I never knew the game without the warp to 0 feature, but I would love to try it.
I uderstand what you are saying but, no as this would just cause a HUGE inconvinience for players.
Thinking is good
Inconvinience is bad |

Skex Relbore
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
62
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 18:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Honestly the stupidity is that auto doesn't go to 0 in the first place and don't give me that "it gives the gankers a chance" nonsense, if you can't manage to catch something that takes close to a minute to warp on the other side you need to find a new career.
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stoicfaux
649
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 18:33:00 -
[37] - Quote
Blech. I remember pre-warp-to-zero. It was tedious.
If you absolutely must reincarnate WTZ as a bubble around every gate, then every ship should have a built-in MWD.
You can tell me what is and isn't true when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head.
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
50
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 19:09:00 -
[38] - Quote
WTB autopilot WTZ
Patri
Miners! Make Moar Isks Nao! |

Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
450
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 20:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
15km crawl is a donkey punch in the balls. Think WTZ is some "magic exploit" that CCP needs to put back because it should fix it somehow? Try this: Undock in a BS in any station, go AFK, and com back in half an hour. Your not off grid, trust me. Now, if I was human and I know we all all, that slow ass crawl is boring as f*ck just as much as you driving along in traffic, get stuck on the off ramp for 5 minutes, get off the off ramp and waiting another 10 minutes to get in your turn lane on the street because there is construction so everyone is pinched in to 1 lane. Yes, I am sure we have all had those moments where we have had to crawl down a street at "ludicrious speeds" which just drives us batshit insane...crawling 15km at every gate is no different. |

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris Etherium Cartel
420
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 20:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Your core game mechanic should NOT be tedious and time consuming. If you allowed people to warp to any gate within range (unlikely) then I'd be fine with some form of gate align time until jump etc, but since you often travel 10+ jumps in a game play session, that really adds up when you slow boat around, and doesn't make the game any more fun for the average eve player.
Always ... Never ... Forget to check your references.-áPeace out Zulu! Hope you land well! |

Hainnz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 21:11:00 -
[41] - Quote
Pre WTZ was a pain in the ass, seriously. I'd like space to feel vast again, but I'd rather they increase the number of systems to do it. (5x-10x current number of systems would be nice.) |

Solstice Project
Cult of Personality
1263
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:21:00 -
[42] - Quote
OP sounds familiar. ^^ Inappropriate signature removed. Spitfire |

Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises Purpose Built
510
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:21:00 -
[43] - Quote
There is not a single small industrial that could survive a 2 man BS gank in anything other than 1.0 if they had to travel more than a few meters. They simply cannot produce enough HP with their ridiculous lack of PG.
Right now the lack of major indie ganking is simply because anyone with the juicy stuff flies manual. Impliment anything removing wtz, and you will have effectively made Freighters the only viable industrial hauler (well and Orcas). |

OldMan Gana
The Flaming Sideburn's Art of War Alliance
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.
I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.
So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?
Very quick way to find out the answer to your question is to warp to zero in all the gates from Doril- Vol in Curse. " I spent most of my money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered." -George Best-á |

MadMuppet
Kerguelen Station
83
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 22:52:00 -
[45] - Quote
Travel in game is slow enough as it is. If I had to waste 2 minutes for a BS or Industrial (4 for an Orca) per jump I would probably quit playing. While I can understand what the OP wants, more chance to catch people, the mechanic by which you want to introduce back in to the game would become crippling (either in headaches or in server load with all the BMs).
If you were to implement a 'no warp to object within 15km' rule to try and reduce the possibility of bookmark abuse you have created a very ugly issue with the game, that being the ability to blockade a system. Once a system is run dry of materials and ships, you would be in the position to deny exit of that system by any player with a significant fleet. Blockaded players would be forced to stay there and die or jump clone out. Might sound cool at first, but the scale of it would probably drive off a number of players. Yes, I only have a Vigil, I've had a bad bit of luck Ok? |

Aggressive Nutmeg
90
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 23:34:00 -
[46] - Quote
My desire for more excitement is less than my desire to reduce the tedium of travel.
WTZ is good. Never make eye contact with someone while eating a banana. |

Arbryl
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.16 23:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
The flight from Rens to Jita takes about 1 and 30 mins manual, with wtz in a fenrir. Autopiloting, it takes about 2h45m. Why do you want to double your local haulers' travel time? |

Thor Kerrigan
Guardians of Asceticism
19
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 00:48:00 -
[48] - Quote
I suggested this some time ago; you can easily fix the bookmark problem by increasing the warp-in radius (which is about 2500 m now) to 15 km... This means you can setup any bookmark you want, but your best bet is to command your ship to "warp to 0" in order to maximize your chances of landing at 0... fixing a bookmark anywhere around the gate at 15 could potentially make you land 30 km off your target...
- People would still land at 0 from time-to-time, but could potentially land at 15 km off the gate anywhere around it. There would be no way to predict where in the "warp-in sphere" your ship would stop. - This would make minimal difference to those NOT PVPing while "warp to zero" would probably become the rule of thumb when PVPing and warping-in on a scanned target. - This would potentially make certain ships designed for faster travel (like interceptors) FAR more suited for their role by giving them a bonus in that regard. - etc, etc. Think about it. |

Dantivio
DarkMatter-Industries SRS.
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 01:38:00 -
[49] - Quote
i think the current mechanic is fine. i would be annoyed had i had to slowboat to the gate from 15k every time. there are other ways of catching a target anywho. such as sitting on the incoming gate for that moment of vulnerability |

Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
40
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 02:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
..most replies in opposition to the re-introduction of slow-boating 15km to gates (or other celestials) field tediousness as reason.
Interesting question that arises from that is: Why is there a need to travel so far in New Eden? What do different professions need to travel on average per session (Miners, MissionRunners, Explorers, Gankers, PvP'ers, Traders, Haulers, etc. pp.)?
From a design point of view.. how dense should the environment be ...how many points of interest should there be reachable within a certain time-frame? What makes an ideal composition of a space environment? Different professions will have different answers on that.
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Vyl Vit
Cambio Enterprises
224
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 05:01:00 -
[51] - Quote
The OP just wants everyone to be a victim, not just the ones on autopilot. (Good of you to care so much about the game.) Anyone with any sense has already left town. |

Barbens
Uneducated Soldiers Psychotic Tendencies.
5
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 05:04:00 -
[52] - Quote
Just go ahead and punch yourself in the face..... I asked Bhallgorn if you should click this link, this is what he said ...[url]http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1112/Bhaalgorn.jpg[/url] |

Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
145
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 10:55:00 -
[53] - Quote
Morganta wrote:Jafit McJafitson wrote:The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning warning? in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again? you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning
What if you're a scout? Should a scout scout for the scout? It's scouts all the way down! |

Luh Windan
S T R A T C O M NEM3SIS.
53
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 11:26:00 -
[54] - Quote
if you think you can avoid all risk try this simple exercise:
fill a hauler full of plex and travel directly from jita to Amarr manually including warp to zero.
If you implemented this idea then life would be much harder for a great many players and to what end? the less well prepared pirates would get a little more action? There are plenty of pirates that can cope just fine with WTZ - I would suggest that the limiting factor is that you have to deal with CONCORD and so it needs to be worth the loss of the ship you are in.
There are also easier ways of implementing what you want - like allowing bubbles in high sec for instance which wouldn't kill travel times or the database but again they would still be a total pain in the you know what for the majority of players.
Like it or not high sec should be relatively safe. A lot of players are not prepared to put up with loads of hassle. The effect on *all* of us would be that subscriber numbers would drop considerably and CCP would be struggling. |

Karl Planck
Heretic University Heretic Nation
109
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 11:30:00 -
[55] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:Morganta wrote:Jafit McJafitson wrote:The problem is that the basic concept of the game's core travel system, of jumping and warping players right into killing range of each other with very little warning warning? in a game where an undocked ship should effectively be considered lost until such time as you dock again? you warped to a gate unscouted, there's your warning What if you're a scout? Should a scout scout for the scout? It's scouts all the way down!
lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong
|

Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
781
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 12:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:I have started this game less than a year ago, so I always knew it with the warp to 0 feature. But I know that this was intruduced because people used BMs to get around the 15km slowboating.
My question is the following : why was this introduced, rather than making bookmarks impossible in a 15km radius around stations, gates, whatever ?
The industrial ships have bonus to maximum speed that just seems like a big waste now, and a minimal effort (not afk-APing, d-scan, pivot warp spots) can avoid you almost any risk.
I am not even a pirate, and tbh, I have more often been a victim of station/gate camping. But I still feel like the warp to 0 mechanic hurts the game.
So could some veteran players please explain me why this has been implemented as it is ?
Why don't you start playing the game and stop playing beta?
Why warp to 0 is a problem?
For who warp to 0 is a problem and why?
What are you suggestions about this supposed "problem"??
Why don't you go live in null, you'll see that warp to 0 is not a problem at all and about your undock issues you should know after all this time playing you can BM off grid and instant warp,. Plus in high sec/null you don't even know what it looks like to have undocks/gates bubbled so what's your problem with warp to 0 or safe undocks? |

Jafit McJafitson
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
145
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 12:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
Karl Planck wrote:lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong
My point was though, that you are still delivered into gun range of enemies after taking a blind jump or warp. The fact that you're scouting in a ship specifically set up to survive and escape such situations is besides the point I was making.
As you are residing in this echo chamber of those fully indoctrinated into the mad little ways of this terrible game, you've probably never stopped to think about how absurd this situation is.
There's scouting in other games sure, you go and establish the location and strength of the enemy. In another game if you're moving up towards a good spot for an ambush you'll take reasonable precautions, or find a way around. The fact that Eve requires that you do this for every warp and every jump just shows how crazy its travel system is, because everywhere is a good spot for an ambush and you usually have no options for alternate routes.
I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing this out, I never expect this to change because it's too deeply ingrained in the game and its community mentality. |

Siigari Kitawa
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
90
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 12:35:00 -
[58] - Quote
Apollo Gabriel wrote:Your core game mechanic should NOT be tedious and time consuming. If you allowed people to warp to any gate within range (unlikely) then I'd be fine with some form of gate align time until jump etc, but since you often travel 10+ jumps in a game play session, that really adds up when you slow boat around, and doesn't make the game any more fun for the average eve player.
Core game mechanics should not be tedious and time consuming my ass. I played WoW back in BC for like, 3 months and it was cool because people had to get together and ride to their raid or fly to their raid if they were in Outland. I resubbed for Cata and now everybody stands in town waiting for their dungeon queue to pop.
That SURE IS EXCITING. There's a reason Jita has 2000 people in it at peak and 1300 at lull. Because EVERYBODY CAN GET THERE WITHOUT EXPENDING EFFORT.
Contracts are the only thing causing people to travel anymore, and that is even falling by the wayside as more and more contracts come to Jita to be listed. While I may not be begging for WTZ to be removed, things sure were a hell of a lot nicer when you had to actually WORK to get somewhere.
Now it's so lazy it feels like the game has lost a lot of its scope. I can see, promote and argue against both sides. I miss WT15. Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Servicing highsec and lowsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX |

Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
334
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 12:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jafit McJafitson wrote:Karl Planck wrote:lol, if your dying as a scout your doing it wrong
My point was though, that you are still delivered into gun range of enemies after taking a blind jump or warp. The fact that you're scouting in a ship specifically set up to survive and escape such situations is besides the point I was making. As you are residing in this echo chamber of those fully indoctrinated into the mad little ways of this terrible game, you've probably never stopped to think about how absurd this situation is. There's scouting in other games sure, you go and establish the location and strength of the enemy. In another game if you're moving up towards a good spot for an ambush you'll take reasonable precautions, or find a way around. The fact that Eve requires that you do this for every warp and every jump just shows how crazy its travel system is, because everywhere is a good spot for an ambush and you usually have no options for alternate routes. I'm not complaining, I'm just pointing this out, I never expect this to change because it's too deeply ingrained in the game and its community mentality. Unless you are going into a dead end system you have never been into, there is always a potential back door, and you can always go around a choke point. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |

Lord Wamphyri
Starside Lost
110
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 13:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
For those mentioning it..
Autopilot not warping to zero was the compromise for when CCP introduced WTZ to eliminate the thousands of bookmarks.
If you want to be as safe as possible, you sit at your PC and PAY ATTENTION, and manually WTZ.
If you're lazy and want to autopilot, fine. But you shouldn't be able to AFK risk free by having the game do all the work for you. Crucible has already upgraded the AP to allow you to set a station as a destination and automatically dock there, and IMO that's more than sufficient. |
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