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Ravenal
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:12:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Del Narveux
Ill use a brief real world example to illustrate my point. Lets say you have a bunch of tanks, we could even call it a blob of tanks. Now, the other guy can get some RPGs for like 5000 bucks each and shoot your tanks, so it makes little sense to just send all of them in in one go because even a very bad shot is going to take down a few of your tanks. Likewise you have some APCs with machine guns, so it makes little sense for the other guy to 'blob' with RPGs cause you can shoot his soldiers down really easy. So the balance we see on the modern battlefield is small groups of tanks and APCs, and small groups of soldiers.
while a bigger blob of ships > smaller blob of ships where the "point value" of both blobs of ships are about the same (the smaller gang doesnt have a titan over the bigger blob) guerilla warfare in eve will never be particularly useful.
Yes, ive seen some pretty amazing things with uberspeed ships, but the fact is that outblobbing is a strategic decision that doesnt really have a counter in eve except for a neat deployment of a DD.
I remember a game called stratego, it was a chess like game where you couldnt see the strength of your enemies pieces until you attacked them. When such a conflict ensued the stronger piece prevailed and the weaker piece had to leave the battlefield. Now the loser had somewhat of an upper hand because he knew (had to remember) a strength value of one of your pieces.
The beauty of the setup in stratego was that the strongest piece was killable by the weakest piece (one of each in the game) and the bombs (you couldnt move them) could kill anyone except the bomber piece.
As such, every piece in the game had an effective counter.
While I surely understand that any titan owner wouldnt want his 60b ship to be vulnerable to a lowly titan killer frigate, warfare laws dictate that the opposition always comes up with countermeasures.
Look at it from this point of view: invulnerability fields (99% resists), Dual MWD, Nos, gankageddons, cruise missile kestrels ... All have been dealt with by ccp because an effective counter wasnt really in the game. They essentially were game breaking.
Sure, Eve has ALOT of options. Non capital ship warfare is pretty balanced, even between ship classes.
Carriers add a certain cute flavor in the mix and even dreadnoughts arent breaking anything really. Motherships are just glorified carriers that get low sec invulnerability (game breaking imo). The presence of capital ships on the playing field doesnt really change much for non capitals, they can mostly ignore the capital ships. Unfortunately you cant ignore fighters, making carriers and motherships somewhat annoying, but manageable during a fleet fight.
Titans are then a bit different. They are capital ships designed to kill battleship and smaller ships. Sure, there are tactics you can use to avoid it or tank it. But there isnt really anything as forcing in the game as the need to avoid having your fleet DD'd (except possibly the need to kill pos's to take over a system).
due to its cost it is of course used very sparingly and carefully because the loss of a titan really tips the isk balance of the outcome of the fight.
Point is, non capitals cant ignore a titan, but other capital ships can. The Titan inbalance comes from the fact that with the DD you can, having two blobs, use the titan to wipe out the other fleets non capital ships and then enter the playing field with your own non capital ships, leaving "only" the enemies capital ships to deal with. Which your capitals + non capital support should make short work of (this is assuming equal blobs with one DD in one of the blobs)
contemplating this fact leads me to the conclusion that DD should be a siege like weapon that does constant damage to any ship in the grid (damage modified by signature radius - full damage on bs down) while the titan is in DD mode.
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The Economist
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:20:00 -
[32]
Edited by: The Economist on 27/08/2007 19:21:13
I've always failed to understand the whole "Zomgtitansruineverythingeve'sforsupercapsonlymyfleetsgetinsta-poppeditcan'tbeavoided" stuff.
DD's are very very easy to dodge.
They can also be tanked.
Titans can also be defused by baiting them into wasting their DD...not hard to do.
Also as we have seen, they can be killed with a little planning and effort.
Any group that can't work out how to deal with a titan without losing their entire fleet has always seemed rather crap to me.
Titans aren't needed for a fleet to operate against one that has one. BS's aren't zomgshafted by it's existence.
With regard to letting non-caps have jumpdrives.... ...yeah that's really gonna reduce blobs....oh wait, no it won't. It'll exacerbate the problem for screamingly obvious reasons.
Personally always thought the anti-blob efforts were futile. Blobs are a result of two factors. The first is that no-one wants to do something with half the numbers for twice as long that could be done with double in half the time. The second being the whole bigger gun syndrome....if someone brings a knife, you bring a gun, if someone brings a gun, you bring a shotgun, if someone brings a shot gun...well you get the picture..it just keeps going untill you hit the limits imposed by the tensile strength of the sapce-time continuum 
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Ravenal
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:43:00 -
[33]
Originally by: The Economist
DD's are very very easy to dodge.
They can also be tanked.
Titans can also be defused by baiting them into wasting their DD...not hard to do.
Also as we have seen, they can be killed with a little planning and effort.
Yeah, trueish.
1. Tactically the goal is not to kill ships unless they are stupid and dont know how to avoid the titan. The goal of the titan is basically to make the titan-included blobs other capital ships somewhat immune to bs and lower blob fleet. Leaving them free to bugger about with whatever they want to.
2. Only tankable with uber extended/plated battlecruisers, commandships and battleships. Everything else pops if its not aligned or if there is lag.
3. Thats tactics vs tactics, superior tactics win. We are assuming equal tactical ability.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:50:00 -
[34]
Thread needs more Alcohol.
*Sokratesz starts handing out shots of Famous Grouse
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.27 19:58:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Thread needs more Alcohol.
*Sokratesz starts handing out shots of Famous Grouse
Thanks, it was getting kinda dry there for a moment.
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Got grief?
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Maglorre
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Sazkyen
Can't wait to see who else is Gallente.
Westley is!! Best Movie Ever.
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Gorken
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:32:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Andargor theWise
LOL, "Game over, Man."
Awesome
http://www.infowars.com/print/Secret_societies/bush_Sab_photo.htm |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:43:00 -
[38]
Make it so having less numbers is actually useful, and you will see a decrease in blobs. As is, there doesn't seem to be a valid reason to reduce one's own numbers. 
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Grismar.net |
Kuolematon
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.28 04:51:00 -
[39]
Whenever Andargor theWise posts, I only keep hitting F5 and look at his signature. If he ever would write something wise and nice, it would be lost to his signature flood.
Sorry Andar-boy (Can I call you by that name, can I?) but your signature will just keep owning your posts. 
CCP giving "oomph" to Amarr's: Nerffing most of ships via Khanid Mk2. Enjoy your "oomphffs" people! :rolleyes:
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CiNi
FireStar Inc
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.28 07:58:00 -
[40]
I agree - Persephone is DEFINATELY gallente!
wheres my drink?
Firestar Is Recruiting Again For A Short Time!! |
Frances Ducoir
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.28 09:06:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 28/08/2007 09:09:45
IMO the solution COULD be to boost command ships bonuses in effectivity but reduce their range (f.e. 20km) and reduce their effectivity with increasing amount of ppl in their range.
We could say an optimal amount of players for one cs could be 10 players.
lets say if you have 10 players in the 20 km range. you get the max boost (which should be way more than now)!
if you have 20 players in the range of the cs you get only half of the boost.
if you have several CS with same gang mods in range only the one with strongest effect will work BUT the amount of ppl who get max bonus should increase whit each cs in range.
the boost should be so strong, that f.e. a amarr cs can boost a 10 ppl bs gang to withstand almost every DD easily.
this way you could build a fleet which can withstand DDs but the enemy has still a counter... he has to kill the cs first.
1 big blast killing everything is just stupid and boring.
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Ravenal
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.28 10:38:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Frances Ducoir
1 big blast killing everything is just stupid and boring.
Agree, even though its not a no brainer to actually use the DD it is just stupid and boring.
change suggestion: make the DD a siege mode like weapon where the blast occurs at the end of the siege (allowing the titan an "easy" exit because it blows up bubbles and small ships that could rebubble it)
Greatly increase the gang bonuses given by the Titan while in DD mode and allow the Titan to act as a cyno beacon while in DD mode for all ships in the Titans gang (yes, frigates and battleships as well using LO to jump to the titan as if they were using a jump bridge)
Allow the titan to be remote repairable while in DD mode unlike carriers and dreads (dont know if the new rorqual industrial mode allows or disallows remote repping).
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:41:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Andargor theWise on 28/08/2007 14:43:42
Originally by: Kuolematon
Whenever Andargor theWise posts, I only keep hitting F5 and look at his signature. If he ever would write something wise and nice, it would be lost to his signature flood.
Sorry Andar-boy (Can I call you by that name, can I?) but your signature will just keep owning your posts.
pwned by my own sig. 
The upside is, booze is still available. 
*passes drinks around*
EDIT: I did fix my "Got grief?" linky, youtube has a nack of changing the URLs...
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Got grief?
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Phyrr
Minmatar
Firing Squad
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.28 15:07:00 -
[44]
I actually fear the Titan pilot that refrains from the "big red button" and uses one to it's full potential...
The DD is a built in flaw. Those over zealous in using it will eventually be taken down.
The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty. |
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