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Drunken stupor - Titans don't work

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Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:18:00 - [1] I am temporarily putting down my bree and bottle of Jack Daniels so that you may benefit of a revelation I have had (no pun intended) in a moment of lucidity. Drunken stupors are usually not good in the thinking department. Well, other people have had this revelation too, but I've been drunk most of the time (damn you IAC!), so I wouldn't know. I'm not being original here, but bear with me. Here it is: Titans don't work. Well, ok, they DO work, very well infact. They are the mushroom-cloud laying muthas of the galaxy. They are the masters of the smackdown, the superfly TNT. I have personally been expedited into a pod by one of these beasties (in company of many of my alliance-mates, some of them quite a few times). I don't want to go into what is happening in 49- (see CAOD), but it is a case in in point (and I'm not whining about McFix and friends, they are playing well the cards the game dealt them). Why doesn't it work then? It's an anti-blob weapon, a very good one. Unfortunately, it's not going to stop blobs. Thing is, you can't really fight when you are not in a blob. Not when it counts, anyway. Say the enemy camps a gate to/from your stations/outposts, where your reinforcements arrive from (face it, there are a lot of pipes where non-capitals can only come from one direction). How are you going to take it without a blob? And when you do, what happens? That's right, DD. Get your own Titan you say? Well, that sort of proves my point. You need a Titan to level the field. Using the scenario above, even then, it will be a case of timing of DD's. Get two Titans then, or 3 or 4,... It never ends. Titans have become indispensable. In the meantime, the non-capitals get the shaft. I should indicate that I believe that frigs/cruisers have increased in value because of their mobility. The real losers are the BSes. Bottom line, for me anyway, is that fights like that are very boring. I don't mind getting blown up in a toe-to-toe, nailbiting slugfest. But finding myself in a pod even before the grid has completely loaded is a bit silly, especially when this wipes out the brunt of a fleet. All of a sudden, game's over for that day. Boring. Prehaps it is time to allow non-capitals to jump from system to system to avoid some of the situations where you have to blob? I don't know, a high-slot module for jumping? That would greatly increase the mobility of fleets, and they could operate in smaller units. Actually, other than POS busting (a rant I will save for another time), there would be no reason to blob unless you are engaged with enemy forces and it's too risky to DD from either side. I don't know, maybe I've burned too many brain cells drinking this Pangalactic Gargleblaster, but it seems to me something is broken, and it smells like the whole gaming experience. Back to hugging the bar, later. - Got grief?
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:25:00 - [2] Edited by: Death Kill on 27/08/2007 14:26:17 Edited by: Death Kill on 27/08/2007 14:25:48 Alliance warfare needs hate and anything thats not a blob needs love. edit : Cool sig I keep pushing the refresh button. edit again : Ahhh Peter DeVries was a cool character. Caldari and proud
Khorian Gallente Excidium.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:14:00 - [3] Duh, Goons allready got the Titans nerfed. Is the coalition still not satisfied? :)
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:19:00 - [4] Originally by: Khorian Duh, Goons allready got the Titans nerfed. Is the coalition still not satisfied? :) hic Who said I spoke for the coalition? Or is this just a gratuitous flame based on my alliance ticker? Here, have a drink instead... - Got grief?
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:24:00 - [5] You are of course correct, they don't work in the sense that the doomsday in laggy situations is still 'I win'. Personally I'd be in favour of removing the DD, then giving titans 8 highslots and a big bonus on dreadnaught sized weapons, as well as a ship maintenance array enough for 50+ battleships (i.e. at least 50m m3 instead of 5m m3). And maybe even more gangbonuses. Titans need to have a real benefit to fleets, but I think it should be logistical/organisational in nature, and not the doomsday. Certainly in systems where the defender has a cynojammer and a titan, it kills all the fun for those involved. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Kaar Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:28:00 - [6] You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. --- ---
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:32:00 - [7] There are 3 kinds of FCs: 1 that gets his fleet obliderated by a titan and puts his men to whine on the forums 2nd that doges the titan blast 3rd that is so scared that he keeps the fleet docked or at a pos Originally by: Jita Alt DOH, you're right, i'm an idiot >_<
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:33:00 - [8] Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. - Got grief?
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:35:00 - [9] Originally by: General Apocalypse There are 3 kinds of FCs: 1 that gets his fleet obliderated by a titan and puts his men to whine on the forums 2nd that doges the titan blast 3rd that is so scared that he keeps the fleet docked or at a pos Unfortunately, you are correct for 2 and 3. 1 I'm not sure, I haven't been asked to post by anyone. What beats me, is that everyone takes this for an anti-Titan whine. I never said nerf Titans, I just would like non-capitals given more options. Oh, and have a drink too. - Got grief?
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:43:00 - [10] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. Hes right though, titans are only effective if you allow them to be. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Kaar Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:47:00 - [11] Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. It's advice, If you see it as a flame you have a much bigger issue than a titan --- ---
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:50:00 - [12] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. Hes right though, titans are only effective if you allow them to be. I believe that most people that play eve aren't stupid. No, really. We like to call them so, but particularly in 0.0, people are either smart or at a cloning station. Bottom line is people still get killed in droves in not-fun play. What can we do to change that? I postulate that some mechanics need to change. (drink of course) - Got grief?
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:50:00 - [13] Originally by: Kaar Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. It's advice, If you see it as a flame you have a much bigger issue than a titan It was your Stop Whining I objected to. Apologies and another drink if it wasn't a flame. - Got grief?
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. Hes right though, titans are only effective if you allow them to be. Joshua is rigth (damn, would you beleive I said that ? me neither ) -=-=-
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:15:00 - [15] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 16:21:19 Anyone else find it humorous that the only people who whine about titans are the ones on the side of those who are losing? Don't get me wrong it's a great terror weapon "which is what it's used for". But as a cost to damage ratio it's very inneffective. Also a very low estimate of the cost of a titan is 60 bil. Name one titan that's done more then 60 bil in damage "to make it cost effective" & i will consider your argument. It's actually pretty weak considering the risk of using it, the only thing is it hurts the attacked side more since it's the individual pilots that are paying for the losses. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Sazkyen	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:32:00 - [16] Can't wait to see who else is Gallente.
Winterblink Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:45:00 - [17] Originally by: Sazkyen Can't wait to see who else is Gallente. :D Totally. warp drive active \| nature vraie
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:48:00 - [18] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 16:21:19 Anyone else find it humorous that the only people who whine about titans are the ones on the side of those who are losing? I'll leave the chest-thumping for CAOD. But I propose that fleets on both sides find this kind of warfare boring. Originally by: DubanFP Don't get me wrong it's a great terror weapon "which is what it's used for". But as a cost to damage ratio it's very inneffective. I think that this was established by Oveur's response when a certain goon asked a question at a certain fanfest. Originally by: DubanFP Also a very low estimate of the cost of a titan is 60 bil. Name one titan that's done more then 60 bil in damage "to make it cost effective" & i will consider your argument. It's actually pretty weak considering the risk of using it, the only thing is it hurts the attacked side more since it's the individual pilots that are paying for the losses. Entirely true, you spend 60 bil, you have a big flyswatter. But I don't see how this addresses the argument that it's boring, and doesn't eliminate the requirement to use blobs in certain situations, which was the whole point of titans in the first place? - Got grief?
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:50:00 - [19] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. Hes right though, titans are only effective if you allow them to be. Joshua is rigth (damn, would you beleive I said that ? me neither ) He's right in a Confucius-Sun-Tzu'ish way (meaning it makes sense on paper). The reality is that's it's not that easy. - Got grief?
Irob Urore Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Irob Urore on 27/08/2007 16:50:48 Originally by: Andargor theWise Say the enemy camps a gate to/from your stations/outposts, where your reinforcements arrive from (face it, there are a lot of pipes where non-capitals can only come from one direction). How are you going to take it without a blob? Maybe if you guys stopped spending all your isk on booze and got one yourself, then you could jump it in and kapow! .. no more blob at gate, well if it works .. otherwise you could have a rather huge(rer) blob at gate
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Irob Urore Edited by: Irob Urore on 27/08/2007 16:50:48 Originally by: Andargor theWise Say the enemy camps a gate to/from your stations/outposts, where your reinforcements arrive from (face it, there are a lot of pipes where non-capitals can only come from one direction). How are you going to take it without a blob? Maybe if you guys stopped spending all your isk on booze and got one yourself, then you could jump it in and kapow! .. no more blob at gate, well if it works .. otherwise you could have a rather huge(rer) blob at gate Stop buying booze!? - Got grief?
Zak Kingsman A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:58:00 - [22] he's not whining about the DD or titans, he's saying they dont work as an anti-blob mechanism. Which I would agree, titans dont prevent blobs.
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:03:00 - [23] not had the pleasure of getting popped by a DD yet but trying to view the DD from a strategic point of view, using recent anti blob tactics recently introduced, it really is the only effective anti blob weapon. bluntly speaking, the titan is an enormous stealth bomber with insta boom effect (not the delayed bomb timer the titans smaller siblings have). waitaminute! capital stealth bomber?!? wtf? well, not exactly, but pretty darn close. My take on the Titan, modify the DD to be a big badaboom bomb with countdown timer like the stealth bombers have AND unnerf the stealth bomber bombs too! [oot] make them have resistances to all damage types so you can actually have your gang deploy several bombs at once instead of forcing the gang to all have the same type of bombs.[/oot] .
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:04:00 - [24] Originally by: Zak Kingsman he's not whining about the DD or titans, he's saying they dont work as an anti-blob mechanism. Which I would agree, titans dont prevent blobs. well, they dont prevent blobs. But they do make an effective blob scatter tool. .
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:10:00 - [25] Edited by: DubanFP on 27/08/2007 17:14:15 Originally by: Andargor theWise Entirely true, you spend 60 bil, you have a big flyswatter. But I don't see how this addresses the argument that it's boring, and doesn't eliminate the requirement to use blobs in certain situations, which was the whole point of titans in the first place? It seems the point now is as a terror weapon. Makes your enemies think "Do we really want to fight this war?". Like i said it may not be cost-effective in terms of shear destruction to cost, but it's an excellent terror weapon that forces the other side into situations they don't want to be in. Ok, it's not exactly how it was intended, but it works as is and it's not overpowered in terms of shear destruction. Sort of a tactical weapon to keep the opposition at bay, and the battle on your terms. Really the greatest strength of a titan is it's mear presence. ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:13:00 - [26] Edited by: fire 59 on 27/08/2007 17:14:00 Edit - nm, misunderstood 50+ Capitals well fitted = 150 Billion Day's of prep and planning = 3 Hours of hellish lag Look on coalition faces when they realize their fleet evaporated for............nothing = Priceless
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:30:00 - [27] Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Sazkyen Can't wait to see who else is Gallente. :D Totally. I concur I wonder if Godzilla is Gallente... T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers \| Eve GUI Tweaks
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:43:00 - [28] As far as I can tell titans are somewhat balanced in the sense that they can be taken down, DD can be avoided outside lagblob, etc. But as an anti blob weapon, I agree theyve failed. All titans have really done is turn BS blobs into capital blobs. Ive posted my thoughts on anti blob weapons a zillion times, but heres another one: make ECM an area-effect weapon, like a baby version of what momships get. However we tackle the blob problem it needs to be from the perspective of smaller ships like cruisers because making the top tier ships the big bad muthas only encourages blobbing to fight it, as weve seen with aforementioned titans and momships. Ill use a brief real world example to illustrate my point. Lets say you have a bunch of tanks, we could even call it a blob of tanks. Now, the other guy can get some RPGs for like 5000 bucks each and shoot your tanks, so it makes little sense to just send all of them in in one go because even a very bad shot is going to take down a few of your tanks. Likewise you have some APCs with machine guns, so it makes little sense for the other guy to 'blob' with RPGs cause you can shoot his soldiers down really easy. So the balance we see on the modern battlefield is small groups of tanks and APCs, and small groups of soldiers. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Ather Ialeas Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:51:00 - [29] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Originally by: Andargor theWise Originally by: Kaar You do realize you can tank a titan, right? Change your fittings and tactics. Stop Whining. Nice flame! I'll make sure our FCs consult you on this novel strategy, we'd never have thought of it! Have a drink too. No, I insist. Hes right though, titans are only effective if you allow them to be. Joshua is rigth (damn, would you beleive I said that ? me neither ) There's one problem though, each side can now field multiple titans and I've yet to see a battleship setup that could take 3 DD blasts and still do enough damage to kill anything bigger than a cruiser. [ insert fancy sig here ]
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:55:00 - [30] Maybe what I would like to see, the encouragement of other tactics than blobbing, isn't "realistic". Going back to Sun Tzu's teachings, a concentration of force is always desirable. Even numerically inferior forces can win tactical victories if they can achieve local superiority. It seems we will always blob, whatever newer ways of destroying blobs are developed. It's natural to want the odds on your side to win. I fully agree 100% with Joshua, DubanFP, fire 59 (I read your post before you edited it), Rav, and others. Titans have had an impact physical and mental, they do change the playing field, they do require different tactics, and they are very effective at way they do: blow things up. I'm just at a loss of finding the fun I had during RMR. I haven't had a good fleet fight since my Syndicate days, and I've been in many since then. Perhaps what I am looking for requires a radical change on how current fleet combat occurs. The idea to allow non-caps to freely move around by jumping is just to avoid artificial choke points like stargates, where you need to blob. To develop even more ways to destroy blobs will not prevent people from blobbing, any more than titans do. The game requires us to blob in its very implementation. I like Dal's attempt at comparing things to how "real" warfare goes down. Titans are tactical nukes, concentrate your forces at your own peril. Of course, there are political ramifications in the real world. On a side note, in the real world, a soldier with his gun can't kill a tank. He needs an anti-tank weapon. And the tanks are shock troops, but rely on soldiers to pop the enemy anti-tank weapons. But it's not the real world. It's a game. It's meant to be fun. - Got grief?

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