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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2004.02.09 09:04:00 -
[31]
I think the best idea is to make an item "Frigate Parts", Cruiser Parts, and Battleship parts, which would work as ammo in hull repairer mods. Oh, and start applying damage to equipped mods when armor is breached.
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K. Raven
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.02.09 09:05:00 -
[32]
I think that armor and hull repairer should lose HP each time you use it. once the module has 0 HP it destroy.
it should take 1 min after undocking to activate it.
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Falhofnir
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Posted - 2004.02.09 11:24:00 -
[33]
i think nothing should change about repairers, thank you.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.02.09 12:06:00 -
[34]
Oh lord 
CPP can u get more intellingence implants into the game?
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Kovak
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Posted - 2004.02.09 13:17:00 -
[35]
 Quote:
That¦s why i say the repairers repair rate should be slightly boosted and their maximum repair ammount should be 80% of armor/hull.
You don't quite get this do you, as I said before, armour is a DEFENSIVE layer, the same as shields, an argument can be made for structure, but armour should be left alone. At the moment people who armour tank already have the disadvantage that they don't have a natural repair rate, they also can't repair their armour quite as fast a shield user can boost their shield and finally they take structure damage before all their armour is gone. On the otherhand armour tankers can probably get higher resistances on their armour compared to most ships with shields (exception probably being the scorp). If you remove the ability to repair 20% of my armour then please explain to me why you shouldn't have the ability to repair 20% of your shield removed as well?
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.02.09 13:44:00 -
[36]
Quote:
why you shouldn't have the ability to repair 20% of your shield removed as well?
No problem with that. For me it would also be ok to make shild boosters use (for example)megacyte to boost the shild. Important is that damage hurts and cost ISK! Atm damage hurts only when ships are totally destroyed. Most 1 vs 1 BS-combats are simply ammo-waist. With the actual game mechanism it¦s possible to make ur enemys waste ammo and be the "winner" by undock/dock 10x. My opinion: a change would be good. Details have to be discussed. But plz not that way:"Don¦t change armor repairers!"
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 13:50:00 -
[37]
Reading this thread is like watching a bunch of armchair quarterbacks attempting brain surgery.
I know the majority of you have never tried to armor tank. So please...
Have cookies! Lots and lots of cookies!
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Kovak
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Posted - 2004.02.09 13:56:00 -
[38]
As long as your not specifically picking on armour/struct (it appeared that way before) I take your point. It would make battle more expensive, but I guess relatively speaking it makes battleship fighting more expenive than cruiser/frig fighting, adding another good reason to use cruisers/frigates.
From the pure point of view of making fighting with a battleship more expensive its a good idea. It will never happen because the unholy whinging that would emenate from the PvP'ers of the game would deafen the carebares and drive everyone away from the game ;)
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:33:00 -
[39]
Quote:
I know the majority of you have never tried to armor tank. So please...
Have cookies! Lots and lots of cookies!
If u don¦t want to show ur "knowledge" spam in another topic plz. We are not talking about tank fittings! We have a general discussion about damaged ships and the repair cost of 0 ISK.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:44:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 09/02/2004 14:44:45
Quote:
As long as your not specifically picking on armour/struct (it appeared that way before) I take your point. It would make battle more expensive, but I guess relatively speaking it makes battleship fighting more expenive than cruiser/frig fighting, adding another good reason to use cruisers/frigates.
From the pure point of view of making fighting with a battleship more expensive its a good idea. It will never happen because the unholy whinging that would emenate from the PvP'ers of the game would deafen the carebares and drive everyone away from the game ;)
So basically what your saying is:
You want to take a defensive maneuver which is far more risky than shield tanking and make it riskier because it's not costing people money?
If people are fighting with someone and they dock, refit to armor/hull repairers, undock, repair, dock, refit, undock and come back out to fight...please report to the nearest high sec solar system and refit your ship for mining. Nobody is using 'freebies' in the middle of battle. And I doubt very seriously anyone is fitted with a midslot medium hull repair unit (haven't seen a large one on the market nor the bp for it) to use in the heat of battle. I don't know why people are exagerrating the situation on this one.
Armor tanking IS a defensive maneuver more risky than shield boosting. And not becase of the armor bleedthrough. It is riskier because:
1) The repair cycle is far longer, making it easier to overwhelm the repairer and requiring more skill training to be effective (Repair Systems lvl 4 here and going for 5 shortly).
2) The armor layer is 1 layer closer to the crucial structure layer, which is the layer that makes a ship go boom.
Why is it I'm starting to suspect that the real cause for the 'need to nerf armor repairers' is because some people are starting to investigate the ability...
And because armor tanking is more effective than shield tanking against long range bombardment 
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:46:00 -
[41]
The only thing I want changed about armor/hull repairs is that the sound be made louder, and if possible, a little bit more annoying. Ideally, I'd like everyone in the system to know what I'm fixing, not just people up to 300km away.
Truly, there is no feeling better than jumping into a fleet, and just letting rip with those biatches.
HOOOOOOOOOOONK
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK
"aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh"
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Lianhaun
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:48:00 -
[42]
Quote:
The only thing I want changed about armor/hull repairs is that the sound be made louder, and if possible, a little bit more annoying. Ideally, I'd like everyone in the system to know what I'm fixing, not just people up to 300km away.
Truly, there is no feeling better than jumping into a fleet, and just letting rip with those biatches.
HOOOOOOOOOOONK
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK
HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONK
"aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh"
That seriously got me lolling.
This is not a hijack
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.02.09 14:55:00 -
[43]
seriously though, hull mods can rot, the idea of repairing an 80% damaged ship that took upwards of 80Mil in minerals to make, for free is daft.
Leave the armor repairs alone though, they get a raw enough deal as it is.
The situation originally discussed is no worse than them docking, refitting, twin-mwd-ing to a safespot, and doing the repairs there. (albeit easier, and maybe quicker..)
Putting in a nerf to stop a few people from doing this docking-thing, at the cost of several people's tank setups is not the way forward.
.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.02.09 15:33:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Why is it I'm starting to suspect that the real cause for the 'need to nerf armor repairers' is because some people are starting to investigate the ability...
I am not interested in nerving armor repairers. I had this situation with the guy undocking/repairing/docking in front of my ship and thought: unrealistic. I wasted 20-30 cruise missiles, got him down on 20% hull and he doesnt have to pay a single ISK to fix it.
If there is no good idea to patch this, then first thing i will do when i am sieged in a base by 3-4 pirate hunters is - guess
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:24:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Quote:
Why is it I'm starting to suspect that the real cause for the 'need to nerf armor repairers' is because some people are starting to investigate the ability...
I am not interested in nerving armor repairers. I had this situation with the guy undocking/repairing/docking in front of my ship and thought: unrealistic. I wasted 20-30 cruise missiles, got him down on 20% hull and he doesnt have to pay a single ISK to fix it.
If there is no good idea to patch this, then first thing i will do when i am sieged in a base by 3-4 pirate hunters is - guess
Then it's nothing against you personally if it's hull repairers you're talking about.
But you've attracted the nerf whiners that are eyeballing armor tanking. Armor tanking requires some heft sacrifices in dmg, accuracy and cap regen modules. Armor tanking is inherently more dangerous than shield tanking, being one layer closer to destruction and relying on a repairer that is easier to overwhelm.
The reason I suspect the nerf armor repairer whines is because most people haven't figured out why their setups are less effective against armor tanks. And do not want to risk doing what's necessary to beat an armor tanking. The fluff about repair costs is just fluff to make it sound better. The nonsense about docking/undocking to repair is utter horsecrap, as armor repairers do not repair any damage until THE END OF THE CYCLE, which is a good 12 seconds for me with repair systems 4.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:35:00 -
[46]
"The nonsense about docking/undocking to repair is utter horsecrap, as armor repairers do not repair any damage until THE END OF THE CYCLE, which is a good 12 seconds for me with repair systems 4."
... I think it takes more than 12 seconds to get down hardened shield on battleship, though. So yeah, it might work:
* undock, fire up shield hardeners and armour repairer.
* have people shoot at you, sit around for as many repairer cycles as you can (with couple of repairers even one makes difference)
* dock, get your shields and cap recharged
* repeat
... which doesn't mean the armour repairers should get nerfed. Just get rid of the insta-cap/shield recharge on dock, and it's fixed along with couple of other lame tactics. :s
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:44:00 -
[47]
Quote:
"The nonsense about docking/undocking to repair is utter horsecrap, as armor repairers do not repair any damage until THE END OF THE CYCLE, which is a good 12 seconds for me with repair systems 4."
... I think it takes more than 12 seconds to get down hardened shield on battleship, though. So yeah, it might work:
* undock, fire up shield hardeners and armour repairer.
* have people shoot at you, sit around for as many repairer cycles as you can (with couple of repairers even one makes difference)
* dock, get your shields and cap recharged
* repeat
... which doesn't mean the armour repairers should get nerfed. Just get rid of the insta-cap/shield recharge on dock, and it's fixed along with couple of other lame tactics. :s
Erm...didn't I tell you that undocking didn't recharge my shields or cap recently?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:45:00 -
[48]
"The only thing I want changed about armor/hull repairs is that the sound be made louder, and if possible, a little bit more annoying."
... I think changing the sound of armour repairer to "badger badger" and the hull repairer to "mushroom" would just do the trick.
badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom ... badger badger badger badger...
:s
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:47:00 -
[49]
"Erm...didn't I tell you that undocking didn't recharge my shields or cap recently? "
Arr, but i was playing dumb and waiting for the delicious whinefest when people discover that on their own... ;.;
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 18:49:00 -
[50]
Quote:
"Erm...didn't I tell you that undocking didn't recharge my shields or cap recently? "
Arr, but i was playing dumb and waiting for the delicious whinefest when people discover that on their own... ;.;
Ack! Sorry, minx. 
* begins making strange Jedi-like motions with his hands in the direction of the thread readers *
This is not the information you are looking for...
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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Kovak
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Posted - 2004.02.09 19:01:00 -
[51]
Quote:
Why is it I'm starting to suspect that the real cause for the 'need to nerf armor repairers' is because some people are starting to investigate the ability...
And because armor tanking is more effective than shield tanking against long range bombardment
It works quite nicely short range as well. Since I'm a gallente and use blasters, I have to get in range so an mwd is a must, which nerfs part of my shield so armour defense is the best way forward for me. Thats what I use and I've tested it extensively on chaos.
What lifewire is basically saying I believe, is that he thinks after half slaughering a battleship it should cost the owner something to fix it.
I've argued that you shouldn't touch the armour layer or armour repairers because they are a defensive layer. But I'm not so sure about structure, I think that if that takes damage the only place it should be fixable in is in a station.
The only problem with doing that is it will obviously weaken armour defense due to the bleed through. I personally would make sure that if you get below 50% armour then your struct starts to take damage, above that it doesn't. That allows you to inflict damage on a ship be they an armour tank or a shield tank which will cost them actual isk to repair.
The possible exception for this might be hull repairing drones, they would add an important role for the dominix and typhoon as support ships.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.09 19:05:00 -
[52]
"I've argued that you shouldn't touch the armour layer or armour repairers because they are a defensive layer. But I'm not so sure about structure, I think that if that takes damage the only place it should be fixable in is in a station."
... I think it would be nice if the concept of modules damage was finally introduced -- they all have their own hp after all. So, once the structure is breached, there should be a chance to deal damage to the modules. Once the module is damaged, there's proportional chance it will fail to activate (guns tested per shot, modules per cycle and so on)
That damage is only possible to repair in station, so it keeps station repair facilities important and unique service. Plus, the side effect would be the damage control modules would finally become useful (presuming they are fixed and do what they're supposed to... either increasing modules' hp, or reducing damage dealt to them)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.09 19:09:00 -
[53]
Quote:
"I've argued that you shouldn't touch the armour layer or armour repairers because they are a defensive layer. But I'm not so sure about structure, I think that if that takes damage the only place it should be fixable in is in a station."
... I think it would be nice if the concept of modules damage was finally introduced -- they all have their own hp after all. So, once the structure is breached, there should be a chance to deal damage to the modules. Once the module is damaged, there's proportional chance it will fail to activate (guns tested per shot, modules per cycle and so on)
That damage is only possible to repair in station, so it keeps station repair facilities important and unique service. Plus, the side effect would be the damage control modules would finally become useful (presuming they are fixed and do what they're supposed to... either increasing modules' hp, or reducing damage dealt to them)
Armor bleedthrough would have to be completely eliminated, lest it put armor tanks at a severe disadvantage.
You keep making up stuff to make my life harder and I'll be upset when the 14th rolls round
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.09 19:13:00 -
[54]
"Armor bleedthrough would have to be completely eliminated, lest it put armor tanks at a severe disadvantage."
Aye, thought that goes without saying ^^;
"You keep making up stuff to make my life harder and I'll be upset when the 14th rolls round "
... uh-oh :s
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toaster
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Posted - 2004.02.09 20:56:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Quote:
this would stop the undocking / docking exploit.
Exploit? Roflmao..
yea that is pretty funny.
on the subject of armor repairers, why not allow them to be used while in the station? reality check, if ur in a dock at a station why would u have to go out into space to use a repairing module? I'm not complaining by any means, just pointing something out that seems obvious.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2004.02.09 21:08:00 -
[56]
Quote:
on the subject of armor repairers, why not allow them to be used while in the station? reality check, if ur in a dock at a station why would u have to go out into space to use a repairing module? I'm not complaining by any means, just pointing something out that seems obvious.
U hit the point! Atm the repair shop is completly useless cause every1 will use armor/hull repairers to repair. Why not remove the repair shop and make a casino instead? 
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.02.10 11:00:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Quote:
on the subject of armor repairers, why not allow them to be used while in the station? reality check, if ur in a dock at a station why would u have to go out into space to use a repairing module? I'm not complaining by any means, just pointing something out that seems obvious.
U hit the point! Atm the repair shop is completly useless cause every1 will use armor/hull repairers to repair. Why not remove the repair shop and make a casino instead?
Not only repair shop suffer from armor/hull repairer but PVP. actualy the winner in PVP is the one who destroy ennemy ships. if the ships isn't destroy, there is no victory since the ennemy can repair at 0 cost.
there is a lot of player which choose to be miner, researcher, trader. their fighting skill isn't great as fighter. what's the point for this type of player to make PVP, if they know they have less chance to destroy the ennemy ships and the damage cost in the ennemy side is 0 ISK. There is no other way to make lose money to the ennemy but destroy his ships in PVP.
if weak fighter can have meaning in fight we will see more skirmish in eve universe (and a lot of PVPer will happy  ).
Some solutions have been suggested in this thread :
- Repair till a pourcentage of the armor/hull. if the player want to repair all his armor/hull, he must pay.
- the player can repair all his armor/hull. but the modules can be use a number of times (through HP. it lose hp each time you use it. once Hp = 0 the module is destroy). if the module is destroy, the player will replace it (lose ISK). or repair the module (lose ISK too).
- Other solutions (don't know but you can suggest it)
Some player will say they can't afford repair shop bill. if they can't, just fly a cruiser or stay away from troubles.
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Postman
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Posted - 2004.02.10 11:06:00 -
[58]
Why should they nerf the armor/hull repairers and make them repair like only 80%?? Do you have any idea how much isk it costs to repair a 20% damaged BS?? I could buy 2 cruisers for that money.
And haven't i paid enough for the medium and large repair module?? Don't think a small could repair a BS, unless you wait 2 days...
About the minerals: the repairer uses alot of cap (= energy). Can't people just pretend that the repairer makes the components using the energy (like the food/equipment making machines onboard of Star Trek).
Some minerals would be ok, but if you need 1 mega for each 0.5% you will get the same cost as repairing (ie: the module becomes useless).
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EVE-DB Staff member |
Syme
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Posted - 2004.02.10 14:15:00 -
[59]
Most of the damage my ships take are from the happy gate campers or suffered while npc hunting in my idiotically set up blaster/armour tank ship.
Why should I have to pay for the damage I take just because I don't use a more sensible distance/shield set up?
Repairers as they are give people flexibility and stops the one and only uber set up that would make the game very dull.
Yes it is unfortunate the ship you hit so hard managed to repair itself using the in-out method but if it couldn't have the player would just have logged off, spoiling his gametime and not giving you a chance to get him later. |
Kathira
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Posted - 2004.02.10 14:20:00 -
[60]
As one of the newer players in this world ( using a Tristan ) and normally only fighting when nessessary in a Mission, the concept of having some part of "armoressenz" would be a nice one.
You could think of making this essenz for frigates out of 5 parts tritanium = 1 part essenz / cruiser 50 parts tritanium = 1 part / BS 500 to 1000 parts tritanium = 1 part
1 part of armoressenz would be needed for a fix amount or maybe a % of armor.
So for a BS 100 ISk = 1 BSarmoressenz = 2 to 5 % armorrepair. Now you have to decide how much space it should take and .. thats it.
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