| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Siolorin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
   |
Posted - 2007.08.29 20:33:00 -
[1]
Topic is a simple enough statement, and, to my knowledge, pretty true. But is it good? Should Caldari players (especially the newer ones who picked Caldari because they looked cool) be forced to always fly in gangs? Should character race be such a defining point? I wish there was a little more choice here aside from "get an inty friend to scram for you and spam missiles or snipe from far away). Training another race is one solution, but it takes a while to go from shield-caldari-missile skills to something completely different.
|
Praesus Lecti
Gallente
The Scope
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 20:52:00 -
[2]
If you picked a race merely upon how they looked, then yes one should have to live with the fact that the race is designed to be at their maximum effectiveness in a gang. Note I said maximum...Caldari are still effective when solo, just perhaps not AS effective as another race.
I'm guessing that your questions are directed at caldari ships in PvP situations, more specifically 1 vs X situations? Your questions do not even apply when it comes to PvE..just look at all the Ravens out there running missions. In some systems I count Raven after Raven all doing missions..dozens of them.
In PvP, caldari ships require a different approach. Play the strengths against other's weaknesses. Pick your fights carefully.
|
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Betrayal Under Mayhem
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 21:00:00 -
[3]
The problem, I think, isn't so much that they're 'good in a gang'. It's that they're hopeless as tools for someone to learn how to fight on their own. Getting the time in space, is really what you need to get good at PvP. It's _far_ easier to to do that in another race ships, because you can go out alone, without having to be the 'noob who tags along'.
*shrug*. So it goes.
|
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 21:10:00 -
[4]
Well, the Caldari motto is pretty much: all for one, and one to rule yer asses without question. The Caldari are defined as a collectivist race, with almost no sense of individuality. Those few that do get that sense almost always turn into Guristas or something. 
|
Siolorin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 22:25:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Praesus Lecti
If you picked a race merely upon how they looked, then yes one should have to live with the fact that the race is designed to be at their maximum effectiveness in a gang. Note I said maximum...Caldari are still effective when solo, just perhaps not AS effective as another race.
I'm guessing that your questions are directed at caldari ships in PvP situations, more specifically 1 vs X situations? Your questions do not even apply when it comes to PvE..just look at all the Ravens out there running missions. In some systems I count Raven after Raven all doing missions..dozens of them.
In PvP, caldari ships require a different approach. Play the strengths against other's weaknesses. Pick your fights carefully.
Obviously PvP, no one cares about Ravens. Caldari are effective solo? What ships do they have that even approach the solo effectiveness of gallente or minmatar? Just because a cerb can gank a T1 cruiser doesn't make it effective 1v1. I don't think that's an argument you will win.
If by "pick your fights carefully" you mean "only fight PvE setup ships that don't have tanks so you can kill them with your crappy damage and the inability to tank or EW +tackle" then I agree.
My question is: does it make sense for one race to be impossible to play solo? I think it does not, while there should be variations, they should still allow for multiple playstyles.
|
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 22:28:00 -
[6]
It makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to you. Now what?
|
Katashi Ishizuka
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 22:35:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Katashi I****uka on 29/08/2007 22:37:24
Yes.
More choice? There are 4 roles in a gang: EWar, Damage, Logistics, and Tackler.
Tackle? Fly the Crow.
Logistics? Fly the Basilisk or put gang mods on your Vulture/Nighthawk.
Damage? Spam missiles with your Cerb or Raven, or snipe with your Eagle/Rokh.
EWar? Bust out the Scorpion or Rook.
Is it necessary for Caldari to have awesome 1v1 ships? No, racial flavor; also; impossible to balance.
Caldari ships with the midslots to tank and tackle would be overpowered as EWar platforms.
Caldari ships with the mass and velocity to nano would be able to ignore tracking with their missiles, hang at long range, and dominate in ways that the Huginn can only dream of.
PVE is a big part of this game, and the Raven is the king of it. You can't discount that. Missions, encounters, exploration, is something that practically 75% of EVE players in high-sec do.
TLDR
Should Caldari players (especially the newer ones who picked Caldari because they looked cool) be forced to always fly in gangs?
Yes. Go crosstrain gallente with your hybrid gunnery skills if you want to solo.
80% of all pvp happens in a gang. 1v1 encounters occur rarely, so honestly it isn't even that big of a deal.
PS.
You can get passable 1v1 fits on many Caldari ships, ex. the Drake, Blaster-moa, etc.
|
Arkios Odymei
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 22:39:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Katashi I****uka
80% of all pvp happens in a gang. 1v1 encounters occur rarely, so honestly it isn't even that big of a deal.
Quoted for truth.
Caldari is fine in PvP. Solo almost never happens, and if you are in a small gang with atleast 1 person with a web and scram, you can bring some scary tank AND gank to the fight (see: Blaster-Rokh)
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Siolorin
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 22:47:00 -
[9]
oh for sure. I don't think that caldari are "bad" at pvp, in any sense. Just bad at solo pvp/pirating. Mostly just interested in challenging the stereotype that it's OK for one race to completely suck at an aspect of the game.
|
Arkios Odymei
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 23:01:00 -
[10]
Well, lets break it down by ship classes (Bold ships are able to solo):
BS:
Rokh - Cant solo unless you are gate sniping
Raven - cant really solo while shield tanking (RSD raven, Armor Tank raven?)
Scorp - Has enough mids where it can fit a decent tank and some ewar for solo. Wont do great damage but I guess you can win a 1v1 if you are smart with it
BC's (T1 and 2): None really
Hacs and cruisers:
Eagle - Beagle or sniping
Cerb - Fit an EM hardener and a Booster / LSE's and the rest can be used for PvP gear
Caracal and Moa are cheap but arent that great solo.
Dessies- the Corm is a god fleet sniper but no solo ship.
AF's:
Harpy - I love this thing. Blarpy all the way baby!
Hawk - Pretty much the same slot layout as the harpy, just with missiles.
Ceptors:
Crow - is worshiped by many
Raptor is a cheap gang tackeler... thats abou it.
Frigs:
Who cares.
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
LVirus
Enterprise Estonia
Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 23:26:00 -
[11]
cut the crap, caldari sux for pvp without any doubt. Im currently training for amarr cruiser 5 so i can use my 11m sp under missiles in pvp. Sad that "the best missile race" has to train amarr for missile pvp. With my 58m sp im more than competent to say that.
Oh and about ECM. Just look here http://kills.cultofwar.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=42979 Allmost 400 ppl and there are 3 scorps, 3 BB and 2 falcons. Can anyone say that ECM wasnt nerfed to hell? I remember when there used to around 10-20% ECM ships in fleet.
|
KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 23:31:00 -
[12]
the problem is caldari are ok in gangs, while most other races ships are plain better in gangs. There is only one type of caldari ship i'd really care for in my gang and thats an ecm boat, but only if there is already a damp boat in the gang. I find amarr/gallente/minmatar to perform just as well in gangs as caldari 
|
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 00:24:00 -
[13]
Edited by: cal nereus on 30/08/2007 00:26:06
Why'd you choose the collectivist race then? Caldari are team players through and through. If you want to fly solo, yes, you shouldn't be training Caldari. I'm sorry you made a bad choice? Despite our ships not performing as well solo, we're just fine in gangs, and we easily have the best attributes, which in my opinion is more important. By all means, train a different race's ships.
|
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 01:06:00 -
[14]
Finally, other people that get it. I gave up trying to explain this crap ages ago, you are braver men than I 
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Camilo Cienfuegos
EP0CH
Black Sun Cartel
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 01:17:00 -
[15]
It's not nearly as bad as many make out: Some Caldari ships can perform quite effectively alone. Rigs are what have made this possible: whereas before you were wasting midslots on resistances, you can now (for a nominal fee - shield resistance rigs are a reasonable 5,000,000 isk) shift those resistances into the rigs, and use the massive quantities of midslots to make an effective solo ship. I for one have had endless fun in a Ferox - perhaps the most useless of all Caldari ships - since the introduction of rigs.
If you come up against another race's ship that's rigged yes you're going to lose - but as a general rule, your setup will have been cheaper as armour resistance rigs are almost twice the price of shield ones, despite the fact that they are infinitely less useful: People are more willing to trade gank/tank than tackle/tank.
|
LeMoose
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 01:41:00 -
[16]
i solo fine in my nano damp cerb
Caldari ships | PVP | Success | Solo
(Pick 3) |
Kamen
SRBI
Circle 0f Two
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 02:06:00 -
[17]
Just forget what others are misleading you to do. Caldari are clear choice of a race that should NOT PvP, period.
In order to be an effective gang player, you must be either lucky to be in an alliance that has the resources to run PvP ops non-stop, or learn the solo aspect of PvP by yourself. I chose not to diverge from Caldari and I am still paying the price for it. While my friends solo friggen interceptors in tempests I am waiting for a gang to form so I can actually PvP.
Crow is no doubt best or second-best interceptor after a Stiletto. Simple...
For a dictor, you don't want a flycatcher. Sabre flies almost twice as fast with same skills and that's a key quality of a dictor.
For cruisers you can pick from vaga, ishtar, rapier/huginn, for nano gangs. rapier/huiginn Arazu/lachesis for anti-nano gangs.
For BS snipe gangs, there's no better choice than Maelstrom due to its supreme damage, alpha and firing solution sustainability.
Basically besides a Vulture (which can perform a gang "bonus" role and anti-support role at the same time) and a few oddball camping scenarios, there is no reason to pick a caldari ship in ANY, ABSOLUTELY ANY gang over any other race's ship. Therefore Caldari are not a "PvP gang race", nor a "PvP solo" race, nor there is a significant enough reason to pick a Caldari ship over any other ship in most PvP situations.
------------------------------------------------
(Recruiting ad)
SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal. |
Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 02:17:00 -
[18]
Caldari rock in PvE, they're somewhat limited in PvP.
Amarr are somewhat limited in PvE, somewhat limited in PvP.
Gallente are somewhat limited in PvE, great in PvP.
Minmatar are very limited in PvE, great in PvP.
Notice a pattern? It's fair (except maybe to Amarr ).
I don't like the system, but trying to change it would require a complete redesign of the game.
---
Proud Amarr pilot.
|
Kamen
SRBI
Circle 0f Two
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 02:30:00 -
[19]
It's not really fair because PvE is not a big aspect of the game. With 1 month of training someone can train for a Raven and "own" the belts. I basically wasted almost a year of training for Caldari skills to have nano boost make me even less effective in PvP. Amarr PvE capability is in a way boosted with missle boats (except that they have to train darn missles). Galente have awesome drone boats for PvE. Minmatar could use a PvE boat or two.
It's not about "fairness" - it's about playability and enjoying the game.
------------------------------------------------
(Recruiting ad)
SRBI regrutuju! Dodjite na nas javni SRBI kanal. |
Cyan Nuevo
Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 02:47:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Cyan Nuevo on 30/08/2007 02:48:09
OK... so train a different race if you don't like Caldari. Say I trained up industrial skills such as transports and mining barges... should I complain that they suck in PvP?
Anyway, you're in an alliance. You have access to gang warfare (I hope). Use your Caldari ships there, where they shine.
---
Proud Amarr pilot.
|
Alex Reynolds
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 03:16:00 -
[21]
Ok, newbie bouncing in here for a moment. I've been playing for 3 days now, and I signed on as Caldari 'cause I thought they were supposed to be good mid- to long-range combatants with both hybrid weapons and missiles.
Did I jam my head in a closet door?
|
Arkios Odymei
D00M.
Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 03:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alex Reynolds
Ok, newbie bouncing in here for a moment. I've been playing for 3 days now, and I signed on as Caldari 'cause I thought they were supposed to be good mid- to long-range combatants with both hybrid weapons and missiles.
Did I jam my head in a closet door?
Caldari do fight with range on their side which is what makes them good in groups. They can effective use their range to focus fire and change targets faster without having to Microwarp-drive up to point blank range like gallente ships do, and they are able to field strong shield tanks which help keep them alive.
the trade off is that if you plan on shield tanking, you will have to sacrfice your ewar such as warp scramplers and stasiswebs. Without these mods, you targets can just run away from you. This means that Caldari arent so hot for flying around solo trying to PvP. You will need a coouple friends atleast.
But I can tell you from experiance, If you have some buddies to do the tackeling, you can simply focus on your own tank and weapons. My blaster-rokh had turned the tide on many a battle.
------------------------------------------------------------------
|
Gorefacer
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 04:24:00 -
[23]
It would be great if each race was better balanced for each type of role (PVP, PVE, EW etc.).
I don't like putting all this time in Caldari for combat, just to realize that, hey, I should just cross-train to another race. This is my personal preference. My solution has been to train straight for cap ships, where many seem to agree the races are fairly equal.
Hopefully other races are made more effective in PVE, so that Caldari can "fairly" be made more effective in PVP. If not, we'll just have to work around it, just like in any MMO that has balancing issues (all of them).
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:18:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 30/08/2007 05:22:09
Originally by: Siolorin
Topic is a simple enough statement, and, to my knowledge, pretty true. But is it good? Should Caldari players (especially the newer ones who picked Caldari because they looked cool) be forced to always fly in gangs? Should character race be such a defining point? I wish there was a little more choice here aside from "get an inty friend to scram for you and spam missiles or snipe from far away). Training another race is one solution, but it takes a while to go from shield-caldari-missile skills to something completely different.
I doubt it that 80% of all players who actually go with caldari pick them because they are "cool".
Ppl pick caldari for the following reasons :
- friends told them it is easy eve
- great achura atributes
- good for making isk through missions/0.0 ratting
- no other race can rat in 0.0 in under 3 weeks
And yes, it takes a while to go from shield-caldari-missiles to shield-navigation-gunnery with different guns but same supporting skills-missiles-some armor tank-some drone skills .
Whatever could you do in those 2.5 months it takes to get t2 projectiles, 0.5-1m SP in navigation, 0.5m SP in armor tanking. I'm not mentioning missiles, shield, drones because you should already have them.
I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :) |
Someidiot
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:22:00 -
[25]
By what i see, this is a way more complicated game than most others (which is why i luv it) being so complicated i decide to look up everything i wanted to be in 3 months once i started. i think all newbies should do the same entering this game. Jump around the forums find out what they want and what race does it best. it would be better to catch it 3 days into your account than 2 months in like one of my friends.
|
Liang Nuren
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:26:00 -
[26]
I picked my Caldari characters for a couple of reasons:
1) They get an extra attribute point (Achura)
2) They actually *look* human. Some Amarr also look human, but their stats suck.
Now, Caldari are decent in PVP - but that's all I'll give them. They're slow, and usually have fairly pitiful damage. But damage adds up, and any ship's better than no ship... ^_^
Liang
Yarr? |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:32:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 30/08/2007 05:32:59
Originally by: Kamen
It's not really fair because PvE is not a big aspect of the game. With 1 month of training someone can train for a Raven and "own" the belts. I basically wasted almost a year of training for Caldari skills to have nano boost make me even less effective in PvP. Amarr PvE capability is in a way boosted with missle boats (except that they have to train darn missles). Galente have awesome drone boats for PvE. Minmatar could use a PvE boat or two.
It's not about "fairness" - it's about playability and enjoying the game.
What is it fair about a whine to have the game changed to benefit you, when with some creative thinking you could really dominate ?
I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :) |
Setana Manoro
Gallente
Firefly Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I picked my Caldari characters for a couple of reasons:
1) They get an extra attribute point (Achura)
2) They actually *look* human. Some Amarr also look human, but their stats suck.
Now, Caldari are decent in PVP - but that's all I'll give them. They're slow, and usually have fairly pitiful damage. But damage adds up, and any ship's better than no ship... ^_^
Liang
Achura males look human ?
First time i saw them i though i was looking at a misguided genetic experiment, or the granchild of the thing that appeared in the movie "The Fly" when the main character's DNA is combined with that of a fly.
I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :) |
Liang Nuren
The Refugees
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 05:47:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Setana Manoro
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I picked my Caldari characters for a couple of reasons:
1) They get an extra attribute point (Achura)
2) They actually *look* human. Some Amarr also look human, but their stats suck.
Now, Caldari are decent in PVP - but that's all I'll give them. They're slow, and usually have fairly pitiful damage. But damage adds up, and any ship's better than no ship... ^_^
Liang
Achura males look human ?
First time i saw them i though i was looking at a misguided genetic experiment, or the granchild of the thing that appeared in the movie "The Fly" when the main character's DNA is combined with that of a fly.
I didn't realize that Liang looked male. 
Liang
Yarr? |
Wideen
Resurrection
R i s e
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 06:51:00 -
[30]
I think the whole thing boils down to that caldari utilizes their midslots to tank. So let's take the drake e.g. it has 6 med slots. One shield booster = two armor reppers, so that leaves 5 slots. Then you'll need a couple of hardeners, let's say three: 1 photon, 2 invuln. Then you have two mids left. A warp scrambler and and mwd (or cap injector but I guess it's up to each and every one). There, done.
You can now go out solo pvp and still have your lows for dmg mods etc. Just because it has 6 mid slots doesn't mean every - single - one has to be a tanking slot. You can still have a decent tank and do solo pvp with good dmg since you can fill up with dmg mods, which most armor tankers can't if they wanna survive for more than a minute.
I'm caldari myself so I know how it can be... I'm not saying it'll be uber but at least decent enough to kick some ass.
Originally by: P'uck
I know somebody who heard somebody say that an Osprey defeated Chuck Norris. Twice. Need I say more?
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |