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In game common law and ability to have law suits.

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Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:13:00 - [1] the best way to create accountability as to reduce the occurance of scams and to make players and theyre alts responsible for their actions would be to initialize an ingame system of "courts" completely supported by CCP, where if player A is scammed by player B player A can sopenna his character/alt ie the player himself to an ingame court where CCP looks at the evidence provided and makes a ruling where if player B is found accountable player B has the ISK worth of the scam deducted from his account as long as no EULA violations had occured, example Curzon Dax stealing the Navy Raven of a ISK buyer, pfft thats just dealing justice not scamming. Just operate it completely on Common law or Napoleonic Code principles s that scam of scams or frivolous lawsuits are easily tossed aside and real work is done. Neh?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:14:00 - [2] Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Smacktalking Alt	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:19:00 - [3] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming.
lofty29 Aliastra	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:22:00 - [4] Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. No, he's suggesting CCP hold his hand and wipe his ass-cr*ck for him because he's not competant enough to avoid a scam. Scamming is allowed in eve, end of. Yes it's harsh, yes it's down-handed mostly, but it's just the way things go. --- Project Mayhem 2
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Shi Lang the best way to create accountability as to reduce the occurance of scams and to make players and theyre alts responsible for their actions would be to initialize an ingame system of "courts" completely supported by CCP, where if player A is scammed by player B player A can sopenna his character/alt ie the player himself to an ingame court where CCP looks at the evidence provided and makes a ruling where if player B is found accountable player B has the ISK worth of the scam deducted from his account as long as no EULA violations had occured, example Curzon Dax stealing the Navy Raven of a ISK buyer, pfft thats just dealing justice not scamming. Just operate it completely on Common law or Napoleonic Code principles s that scam of scams or frivolous lawsuits are easily tossed aside and real work is done. Neh? 1 - needlesly complicated 2 - ties up men and resources 3 - how much did you lose ? 4 - are you going to pay the CCP employees that do this if CCP decided to implement it out of your own pocket ? I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
Fortuk Monmouth MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:22:00 - [6] Edited by: Fortuk Monmouth on 30/08/2007 17:25:29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. perhaps you didnt quite understand surfin's plunderbunny....ccp allows scams because it is a part of eve, like rl, people will and can scam you, you have to be smarter and not fall for the scams. scamming of real money though is something else entirely. lofty your in a noob corp! did ccp nerf your awesome moneymaker? (srry i have been away for a while, no idead whats going on....) Originally by: hango Our corp chat is generally full of people e-hugging and e-snuggling. ISD is cool like that.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:23:00 - [7] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. No, he's suggesting CCP hold his hand and wipe his ass-cr*ck for him because he's not competant enough to avoid a scam. Scamming is allowed in eve, end of. Yes it's harsh, yes it's down-handed mostly, but it's just the way things go. And he's also suggesting it in a very very very bad way that doesn't leave much to the immagination regarding his maturity. I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
lofty29 Aliastra	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:24:00 - [8] Originally by: Setana Manoro Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. No, he's suggesting CCP hold his hand and wipe his ass-cr*ck for him because he's not competant enough to avoid a scam. Scamming is allowed in eve, end of. Yes it's harsh, yes it's down-handed mostly, but it's just the way things go. And he's also suggesting it in a very very very bad way that doesn't leave much to the immagination regarding his maturity. So one cant put a point forward bluntly now? --- Project Mayhem 2
Bodhisattvas mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:27:00 - [9] If your stupid enough to get scammed I think you should use the following link as a reference guide as to how to deal with it. Link
Smacktalking Alt	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:28:00 - [10] Edited by: Smacktalking Alt on 30/08/2007 17:33:33 Originally by: Fortuk Monmouth Edited by: Fortuk Monmouth on 30/08/2007 17:25:29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. perhaps you didnt quite understand surfin's plunderbunny....ccp allows scams because it is a part of eve, like rl, people will and can scam you, you have to be smarter and not fall for the scams. scamming of real money though is something else entirely. And it would still be a part of Eve if the OP's suggestion were implemented. You forgot to mention in your RL example that when you scam someone, there are consequences if you are not smart about it. Of course you need to be smart when doing business with a stranger, but shouldn't you also have to be smart about scamming someone? I don't agree with the OP that all of the player's characters should be associated automatically. It should be the character called to answer for the scams, not the player.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:37:00 - [11] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 30/08/2007 17:40:21 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Fortuk Monmouth Edited by: Fortuk Monmouth on 30/08/2007 17:25:29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. perhaps you didnt quite understand surfin's plunderbunny....ccp allows scams because it is a part of eve, like rl, people will and can scam you, you have to be smarter and not fall for the scams. scamming of real money though is something else entirely. And it would still be a part of Eve if the OP's suggestion were implemented. OP's suggestions are not ... rational. He wants something in the order of a set of laws about what is and what is not right in eve and wants every scam, to be thoroughly checked by CCP emplyees in according with this set of laws. With all the scams that take place in this game, who is going to pay for such a implementation ?; him ? Untill they implemented GTC sales through the website, you were lucky if you got a response to your regular "i lost my ship" petition in 1-2 weeks. Now you get your response in 1-2d. If such a change goes through, CCP either needs to hire all of the sudden a lot of ppl, school them into the new set of rules that will govern this gameworld, and pay them. This game is sold as a machiavelic world where you can scam, thief, spy, destroy and even chase someone through different corps untill you are either bored, or he gives up. It's a big sandbox with few rules and apart from those rules everything goes. Many of the players of EVE do not want scams to go away. EVE already has a set of rules : - if you get scammed with GTC's or with buying a char, you can petition and it will be solved. - if you get scammed while buying a GTC, but you bought it through eve-mail, scammer gets banned but you don't get refunded. - except for the 2 above rules, everything goes in regards to scamming. I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:45:00 - [12] there already ARE in game consequences for scamming you can block the fracking snot out of them Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Smacktalking Alt	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:55:00 - [13] Originally by: Setana Manoro OP's suggestions are not ... rational. He wants something in the order of a set of laws about what is and what is not right in eve and wants every scam, to be thoroughly checked by CCP emplyees in according with this set of laws. With all the scams that take place in this game, who is going to pay for such a implementation ?; him ? Untill they implemented GTC sales through the website, you were lucky if you got a response to your regular "i lost my ship" petition in 1-2 weeks. Now you get your response in 1-2d. If such a change goes through, CCP either needs to hire all of the sudden a lot of ppl, school them into the new set of rules that will govern this gameworld, and pay them. This game is sold as a machiavelic world where you can scam, thief, spy, destroy and even chase someone through different corps untill you are either bored, or he gives up. It's a big sandbox with few rules and apart from those rules everything goes. Many of the players of EVE do n. Tot want scams to go away. EVE already has a set of rules : - if you get scammed with GTC's or with buying a char, you can petition and it will be solved. - if you get scammed while buying a GTC, but you bought it through eve-mail, scammer gets banned but you don't get refunded. - except for the 2 above rules, everything goes in regards to scamming. Nowhere did I say the OP's suggestion is perfect. I do firmly believe, however, that there should be potential consequences for scamming if the scammer is careless about it. It goes without saying that, like any kind of PvP, it should be regulated only in high sec space, and yes, it would establish a set of laws about what is "right" there. It wouldn't be an automatic punishment for the scammer, there would have to be some ingame proof of the scam. It wouldn't go anywhere near to eliminating scams, though it would probably cut down on them. I know it's never going to be implemented, or even considered, but it would be an interesting new dimension to PvP, and I certainly don't think it deserves some of the knee-jerk resonses it's getting.
Nyck Not Your Common Killers	Posted - 2007.08.30 18:10:00 - [14] There are already potential consequences. It's called a war dec. And, yes, they can hide in a noob corp, I know. But, pay attention, and he may someday join a corp. Learn how to deal with your problems for yourself. ----------------------------------------------- Could someone tally how many times this topic has been beat to death?
hellsknights Hells Angels Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.30 18:20:00 - [15] Originally by: lofty29 Originally by: Smacktalking Alt Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Scamming is allowed.... just not of GTCs. CCP has spoken on this already. Perhaps you didn't quite understand the OP. He's suggesting ingame consequences for scamming. No, he's suggesting CCP hold his hand and wipe his ass-cr*ck for him because he's not competant enough to avoid a scam. Scamming is allowed in eve, end of. Yes it's harsh, yes it's down-handed mostly, but it's just the way things go. I agree............enough said recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.30 18:41:00 - [16] Originally by: Shi Lang the best way to create accountability as to reduce the occurance of scams and to make players and theyre alts responsible for their actions would be to initialize an ingame system of "courts" completely supported by CCP, where if player A is scammed by player B player A can sopenna his character/alt ie the player himself to an ingame court where CCP looks at the evidence provided and makes a ruling where if player B is found accountable player B has the ISK worth of the scam deducted from his account as long as no EULA violations had occured, example Curzon Dax stealing the Navy Raven of a ISK buyer, pfft thats just dealing justice not scamming. Just operate it completely on Common law or Napoleonic Code principles s that scam of scams or frivolous lawsuits are easily tossed aside and real work is done. Neh? The first thing to do after instituting laws in Eve- KILL ALL THE LAWYERS. I think it's obvious you're a law student somewhere. Laws arn't needed in a game where killing someone is legal. Don't like something someone did? Kill them. Repeatedly. [Video]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.30 20:53:00 - [17] firstly wow, I cannot believe how fast some people can utterly prove that they complete idiots, firstly its just an idea, secondly the point of a discussion thread is to discuss it, not to spam the OP with your immaturity. Thirdly it is NOT legal ingame to blow you up to smithereens, if someone steals your money and if they're in high sec you cannot destroy them, and war dows cost isk to implement and have the ability to backfire. Fourthly, hiring people t do the job is not neccasary, just say that if you can donate X many hours to it voluntarily and professionally you can get a Y% discount. The thing about bring the player accountable and not his char is because the scammer can theoretically delete his char, its better to bring the character himself accountable to try to encourage at least semi decent behavior like how in real life ther's generally enough peer or social pressure to prevent about 90% of people from being complete $#%holes. Fifthly as it turns out scamming is actually NOT condoned or supported by CCP, they offer a tonne of warnings about preventing scams to give them less work but it doesn't change that it is as it turns out not the official policy of CCP to allow scams, this is from a GM's word itself. If you think a completely player driven system of courts and offer "legal" career path in Eve and hopefully you can get the same result.
Gwoden Gallente Exa Utopia Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.08.30 20:54:00 - [18] Hmm... quick reminder This is a video game. _______________________________________________ There is no "I can't" only "I will".
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.30 21:18:00 - [19] true, but i think for the vast majority of people who are new expecting people to be friendly only of course to end up getting taken advantaged of, and then unsubsribing from the game when if given te chance over time could of had a beneficial and positive contribution to the game, the game is open and freeform largely but this does not mean that everyone should behave like 12 year olds pretending to be big toughs when they're not, and to an extent to allow the vast majority of new players a chance to be immersed in the game certain precautions should be made before throwing them into the water to learn how to swim without a life jacket.
MirrorGod Heretic Army Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.30 21:23:00 - [20] I honestly can't think of a better way to waste CCP employee's time. And what kind of excruciating job it would be, listening to whine after whine after whine. :fail:
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.30 21:56:00 - [21] Please no. We have pirates, carebears, traders, scammers, bums, theives, etc all in Eve-Online. But please for the love of god don't bring out the Lawyers. That is just an all new low which I don't think were all prepared for I mean that is just pure evil. Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Gwoden Gallente Exa Utopia Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:26:00 - [22] Originally by: Shi Lang certain precautions should be made before throwing them into the water to learn how to swim without a life jacket. And yet people still learn how to swim using that very method. But back on topic. I think the statement you want to make is a plea to the general player public to not scam, kill, or abuse new players. But instead educate them and warn them of things to come. I think this whole idea of having a legal system in game will ruin the fun in the game. Imagine having a court subpoena on the one day you have time to play the game. Or we all have to serve court duty. This idea is NO BUENO. _______________________________________________ There is no "I can't" only "I will".
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:28:00 - [23] fine dont waste ccp's tiume, just make it a player driven mini profession, people will do it.
rand0 eastman Gallente Sadist Faction	Posted - 2007.08.30 22:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Shi Lang fine dont waste ccp's tiume, just make it a player driven mini profession, people will do it. your right people will do it... and exploit it and twist it and scam it to their own ends. thats simply the likable nature of eve. as it stands its an implimentation that is neither needed nor wanted (using my powers of foruming trolling assumption here), by the majority player base and their alts! in short nothing in this game comes for free and those who are under the belief it does are asking to get scammed, well them and their spendthrift short attntion span cousins.
Captian Internet	Posted - 2007.08.30 23:36:00 - [25] Originally by: Shi Lang fine dont waste ccp's tiume, just make it a player driven mini profession, people will do it. like professional scouting right? Oh wait Local Thread 107-b
RuleoftheBone Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.08.31 01:25:00 - [26] Now released from CCP/White Wolf: Revelations III-EvE Lawyer Expansion Pack -More accounting -Automated forum quote pyramid generator -Further tools for vivesection of opposing views -Walking in stations to include briefcase accessory pack -Legal Aid for outlaws -and much...much more. "Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 01:56:00 - [27] Would I have a right to counsil? Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 02:16:00 - [28] seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding on how this works, if a lawyer screws you, you can hire another lawyer to sue him, you see? It balances itself out as long as some lawyers are not *******s (hard to imagine i know) the system will largely work and will largely solve the scamming problem by making people more accountable for their actions. Also yes people can exploit it but to a far lesser degree then free form contracts etc, just because something can be exploited doesnt man it should be avoided at all costs, contracts are cool but are exploited like hell. do we get rid of contracts? No! We simply add a check and balance to it.
Jak Silverheart Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.31 03:35:00 - [29] Your not getting me to do Jury Duty, its hard enough to get me to show up in real life. By the way Concord just released me on good behavior, so im out on parole, and im inelgeble to ingame Jury Duty Oh and if you want a court system in Eve go out and do what Judge Dread does. Become a cop/lawyer/jury/executioner all in one. Hmmm come to think of it they usually try to call themselves Anti-Pirates these days... Originally by: Scordite Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 04:08:00 - [30] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 31/08/2007 04:13:01 Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 31/08/2007 04:11:08 Originally by: Shi Lang seems to be a fundamental lack of understanding on how this works, if a lawyer screws you, you can hire another lawyer to sue him, you see? It balances itself out as long as some lawyers are not *******s (hard to imagine i know) the system will largely work and will largely solve the scamming problem by making people more accountable for their actions. Also yes people can exploit it but to a far lesser degree then free form contracts etc, just because something can be exploited doesnt man it should be avoided at all costs, contracts are cool but are exploited like hell. do we get rid of contracts? No! We simply add a check and balance to it. Great... the petition system will be 4-6x longer to get a GM to look at... not to mention the added time to sort out the legitimate gripes to the "OMG I just fired on a guy and he ganked me, I'm calling desync!" whines. No, this system will not work and good luck finding pirates to listen to those whines or carebears to stop carebearing to care about those whines By the way, which common law are we talking? American or British? What about international law? What about diplomatic immunity? Insanity pleas (I'll be a lawyer, that should automatically qualify my client)? If you don't get a dev response will you cancel your account? Will the lawyers be paid? Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 04:34:00 - [31] obviously whatever Rejaviks common law is and obviously if your insane you shouldnt be playing Eve.
Helganstandt Finis Lumen	Posted - 2007.08.31 04:47:00 - [32] I say they should just implement a "station barfight" to the station walking feature. Punch your local scammers today! Much more satisfying, and far less complicated.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.31 05:41:00 - [33] shi lang, how do you propose "enforcing" anything without in game "laws" and mechanics? because ccp would never implement something that lets you force anyone into something, and for a very good reason Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 06:06:00 - [34] you post doesn't make sense. there are already laws in Eve, and numbers of ways around them, scamming was a completely unintentional and unsanctions side effect which have gotten worse with free form contracts I am certain that with a little creativity enforcing it will not be hard. And what do you mean CCP doesnt force you to do anyhting? It forces you to do alot of things.
Vodun Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.31 06:13:00 - [35] Originally by: RuleoftheBone Now released from CCP/White Wolf: Revelations III-EvE Lawyer Expansion Pack -More accounting -Automated forum quote pyramid generator -Further tools for vivesection of opposing views -Walking in stations to include briefcase accessory pack -Legal Aid for outlaws -and much...much more. ---
Bodhisattvas mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.08.31 06:57:00 - [36] Hell what next.....asking pirates to give stuff back.... Want some more fairy dust mister ?
port22 The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.31 08:38:00 - [37] Last time I checked this was "EVE Online" not "Judge Judy." Originally by: Temp Boi Port FTMFW Period.
Gladiator Jonny Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:26:00 - [38] I think its about time speed cameras were introduced, every time you get caught over the speed limit you get a huge fine. just kidding but, eve is a game if you make law suits your gonna have lawyers. and who likes lawyers?
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:37:00 - [39] Originally by: Shi Lang the best way to create accountability as to reduce the occurance of scams and to make players and theyre alts responsible for their actions would be to initialize an ingame system of "courts" completely supported by CCP, where if player A is scammed by player B player A can sopenna his character/alt ie the player himself to an ingame court where CCP looks at the evidence provided and makes a ruling where if player B is found accountable player B has the ISK worth of the scam deducted from his account as long as no EULA violations had occured, example Curzon Dax stealing the Navy Raven of a ISK buyer, pfft thats just dealing justice not scamming. Just operate it completely on Common law or Napoleonic Code principles s that scam of scams or frivolous lawsuits are easily tossed aside and real work is done. Neh? Then you would need player judges and juries, who could be corrupted by bribes or threats. You would also need player police at that point. Doesn't sound workable. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:52:00 - [40] Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:02:00 - [41] I LOATHE scammers (no, I did not lose anything, I just find them to be so pathetic as to be offensive by their mere existance) However Lawyers are worse. The current whines that reverberate sp loudly in Eve are nothing compared to what professional whiners can do. Play nice while you butcher each other.
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:41:00 - [42] Originally by: Shi Lang fine dont waste ccp's tiume, just make it a player driven mini profession, people will do it. See, thats the beauty of EVE right there in your post and you don't even see it! If you are so against scams and wan't to enforce some kind of law system against them, just open up your own corp, call it Law Firm or something, gather around a group of like minded individuals and start accepting cases from clients. A wholle new business model in EVE is created, you have fun doing something you apparently like and get some ISK from it in the form of % of ISK scammed returned to your client, hourly fees devoted to returning the clients ISK, or any other number of methods you can implement and CCP doesn't have to move a finger or waste resources like in your OP.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:43:00 - [43] Lawsuits? Your kidding right? I don't think many people have sat down to think about what is missing from Eve and came up with the answer "Lawyers". It's a widely unreported fact that lawyers and their kin create more human misery than terrorists and peadophiles combined. Beaten only by their close cousins, the politicians, and their predecessors, the religious leaders. The less of all of this type of filth in Eve, the merrier. You might not want to go down this road.
Agent Li Caldari Galactic Defence Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.31 16:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. How would the system know that it was a scam, other than "you said so"? That would mean that you could shoot anyone you ever had a contract with. All someone would have to say is, "it was a scam!" and then go shooting. ------------------ "Don't be afraid to take advantage of your enemy's weaknesses. Becasuse winning is everything after all."
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.31 16:12:00 - [45] Originally by: Shi Lang the best way to create accountability as to reduce the occurance of scams and to make players and theyre alts responsible for their actions would be to initialize an ingame system of "courts" completely supported by CCP, where if player A is scammed by player B player A can sopenna his character/alt ie the player himself to an ingame court where CCP looks at the evidence provided and makes a ruling where if player B is found accountable player B has the ISK worth of the scam deducted from his account as long as no EULA violations had occured, example Curzon Dax stealing the Navy Raven of a ISK buyer, pfft thats just dealing justice not scamming. Just operate it completely on Common law or Napoleonic Code principles s that scam of scams or frivolous lawsuits are easily tossed aside and real work is done. Neh? if you want to exact revenge in Eve, grab yer guns, and a gang (if you want) and find the bastard who got you for all your ISK. Bottom line is, if you are DUMB enough to fall for all the scams here, you deserve to get scammed out of your ships/isk/assets. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 16:30:00 - [46] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 31/08/2007 16:30:14 Originally by: port22 Last time I checked this was "EVE Online" not "Judge Judy." I didn't steal it, it was a gift! Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.31 16:58:00 - [47] Originally by: Shi Lang you post doesn't make sense. there are already laws in Eve, with the exception of high sec agression, what other ingame laws are there? Quote: and numbers of ways around them, actually no, it will get you banned avoiding concord Quote: scamming was a completely unintentional and unsanctions side effect which have gotten worse with free form contracts the devs say differently, frankly i think their opinion counts for alot more than yours. Quote: I am certain that with a little creativity enforcing it will not be hard. then you either have no idea how hard it is to code subjective "enforcement" or you are a complete moron Quote: And what do you mean CCP doesnt force you to do anyhting? It forces you to do alot of things. example? there isnt a single module or mechanic that you are forced into using, and no way to force others into using/doing anything either, you always have a choice, and control, of your character/ship Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:21:00 - [48] Originally by: Agent Li Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. How would the system know that it was a scam, other than "you said so"? That would mean that you could shoot anyone you ever had a contract with. All someone would have to say is, "it was a scam!" and then go shooting. Hmm good question, what about a scam type database and only allowing the fee and the wardec IF the two players have actually interacted? For instance, killmail or trade. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Warrio Mining Bytes Inc. Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:34:00 - [49] Originally by: Fortuk Monmouth lofty your in a noob corp! did ccp nerf your awesome moneymaker? (srry i have been away for a while, no idead whats going on....) Loftys new corp makes this statement even more excelent. Sig removed due to being too freaking awsome. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Deckard Cain
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 19:33:00 - [50] Originally by: Tortun Nahme Originally by: Shi Lang you post doesn't make sense. there are already laws in Eve, with the exception of high sec agression, what other ingame laws are there? Quote: and numbers of ways around them, actually no, it will get you banned avoiding concord Quote: scamming was a completely unintentional and unsanctions side effect which have gotten worse with free form contracts the devs say differently, frankly i think their opinion counts for alot more than yours. Quote: I am certain that with a little creativity enforcing it will not be hard. then you either have no idea how hard it is to code subjective "enforcement" or you are a complete moron Quote: And what do you mean CCP doesnt force you to do anyhting? It forces you to do alot of things. example? there isnt a single module or mechanic that you are forced into using, and no way to force others into using/doing anything either, you always have a choice, and control, of your character/ship It was the devs themselves who have informed me that scamming is a completely unsupported and unintentional part of the game. And you have answered your own question on which mechanics of the game you are forced to go through. And next whoeevr said the ******** statement that if you get scammed you deserve to get scammed, then I geuss if you get raped out in a parking lot you deserved it right for getting caught in that position right?
Sharil	Posted - 2007.08.31 21:04:00 - [51] I think you all missed the point. Having a legal system where crimes other than violent crimes are punishable in highsec space would add an interesting new depth to pvp, where those individuals guilty, or accused of being guilty of said crimes (i.e. blue-collar stuff) would have to be brought to justice. The Bounty system obviously doesn't work because a player can simply kill himself and collect if the total is high enough. However, a system where Arrest Warrants were in place, someone would need to enforce the warrant. Someone OTHER than Concord. See where this is going? Knee-jerk reactions are silly. Just think about it. For just a moment.
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.08.31 21:06:00 - [52] Originally by: Sharil I think you all missed the point. Having a legal system where crimes other than violent crimes are punishable in highsec space would add an interesting new depth to pvp, where those individuals guilty, or accused of being guilty of said crimes (i.e. blue-collar stuff) would have to be brought to justice. The Bounty system obviously doesn't work because a player can simply kill himself and collect if the total is high enough. However, a system where Arrest Warrants were in place, someone would need to enforce the warrant. Someone OTHER than Concord. See where this is going? Knee-jerk reactions are silly. Just think about it. For just a moment. Nice one, like having those Concord affiliated corps to manage and carry on the warrants. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.31 21:15:00 - [53] Originally by: Shi Lang It was the devs themselves who have informed me that scamming is a completely unsupported and unintentional part of the game. ... ~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 21:54:00 - [54] Quote: ... pwned. But yes, some of the more creative inputs are interesting, a warrant/arrest system where you would b allowed to attack someone whose "wanted" even in High sec without CC interfearing is an interesting addition. Now the problem with an earler suggestion of having a player driven lawyer corp is how do you enforce the victom aside from ransoming him to give back the money? I think a certain point in these steps some dev action will be needed to force the perp to "oay up" and then let off on his merry way.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.31 21:58:00 - [55] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/08/2007 22:01:20 Originally by: Shi Lang It was the devs themselves who have informed me that scamming is a completely unsupported and unintentional part of the game. And you have answered your own question on which mechanics of the game you are forced to go through. And next whoeevr said the ******** statement that if you get scammed you deserve to get scammed, snip Totally inappropriate -TheDagda ([email protected]) Devs have "informed you" ? What? ...I'm sorry, but the closest thing they informed you of, is to go read the warnings about scamming. While scamming is indeed unsupported, it has no prevenational systems either - Thus your argument for this is flawed. If scamming was an undesired side of EVE, steps would have been taken years ago to prevent it entirely, game mechanic-wise. Granted perhaps, the method of preventing it, isn't exactly forthcoming - However no actual system has ever been in place to flat out stop a scammer. Having said that, there are in actuality, several systems in place to prevent scamming - You seem them all the time when buying and selling on contracts: Warning messages telling you to make sure you check what you're buying, to check at what price you're selling something, to check the price of what you're buying and so on. If you FAIL to heed those warnings, despite what you said earlier, then getting scammed is your own fault, pure and simple. It's called Darwinism, look it up. CCP warn you that people might scam you, however they never said they don't want it in their game, nor did they ever say that they'd take steps to remove it completely from the game, or for that matter, protect you if you get scammed...not at all. Darwinism doesn't shield the weak. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.31 22:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. Please do explain to me how the game is to tell the difference on whether your ship/isk/item was stolen, or you just gave it to him? You have that option everytime someone has something of yours? You get to mark something as stolen after it's been lost? Imagine the scenario, noob gets a free frigate from some random guy, noob thinks "Hey awesome!", random guy marks the ship as stolen, wardecs, proceeds to kill noob over and over freely and legally in hi-sec, resulting in a very confused and unhappy noob. You buy a ship on contracts and before you know it, theres a wardec on your rear end..Market PvP'ing gets a whole new meaning! You do a direct trade with someone and pay them....wardec..same story Corp builds you a ship out of your minerals, you get the ships, leave the corp..wardec...same story again. It would be abused so morbidly that you'd make the ENTIRE market in all of EVE, crash permanently. I'd say thats a bad thing. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
GPerson Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.31 22:24:00 - [57] Originally by: Shi Lang Originally by: GPerson ... pwned. I fail to see how me making a comment (of sorts) about you stating the obvious "pwned" anything. Of course scammiing is unsupported, last time I checked, I couldn't train Scamming to level V. ~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 23:04:00 - [58] I had recieved a message from a dev stating that scamming is in no way condoned or supported by CCP.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.08.31 23:34:00 - [59] Umm it IS relevent to the thread as some people here have said otherwise, as being the originator of the thread I think I have the right to determine what is or is not relevent. One person here has claimed that CCP allows it or that it is supported by them, I am merely answering that based on the notice I have recieved that that is not the case. scamming (being the topic of this thread) is not in any way condoned or supported by CCP.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.31 23:57:00 - [60] Originally by: Shi Lang Umm it IS relevent to the thread as some people here have said otherwise, as being the originator of the thread I think I have the right to determine what is or is not relevent. One person here has claimed that CCP allows it or that it is supported by them, I am merely answering that based on the notice I have recieved that that is not the case. scamming (being the topic of this thread) is not in any way condoned or supported by CCP. CCP does allow it, otherwise it would be classified as an exploit until a system to remove it entirely could be put in place. Simple as that buddy. That they don't condone or support it, is an entirely different matter. That's something they do to protect themselves, like so many corps and alliances do for the sake of their image. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.01 00:23:00 - [61] no actually your just arguing semantics, they not condoning it = they not supporting it, they don't consider it an exploit because they have the warnings, but even with the scams there are still as I can tell from the help chat channel numerous people new to the game who still get taken advantaged of and I think some efforts eventually you know sometime after they fix the drone bug put in some kind of ingame framework of allowing players some means of punishing those and brining people accountable for their actions. In real life you could walk on over and punch them in the mouth, in eve the best you can do is eject a can and hope he doesn't have a ship thats bigger then yours.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.01 00:32:00 - [62] Originally by: Shi Lang no actually your just arguing semantics, they not condoning it = they not supporting it, they don't consider it an exploit because they have the warnings, but even with the scams there are still as I can tell from the help chat channel numerous people new to the game who still get taken advantaged of and I think some efforts eventually you know sometime after they fix the drone bug put in some kind of ingame framework of allowing players some means of punishing those and brining people accountable for their actions. In real life you could walk on over and punch them in the mouth, in eve the best you can do is eject a can and hope he doesn't have a ship thats bigger then yours. I'm not arguing semantics - It's the simple truth, and if you refuse to recognize it, then thats your choice. You said it yourself, they don't consider it an exploit because the warnings are there. Problem solved..even newbies will see those warnings, and all it takes to understand the warning, is the ability to read, and smarts to ask people around you (oh say...the people in the help channel cause thats exactly what it's for??) before you act. Thats the system to prevent scamming right there. If you're too eager/naive/stupid/whatever to heed the warnings, then it's your own fault and again your own fault if you don't learn from your mistakes. No framework is needed, because it's already there..Darwinism takes care of the rest. "In real life ..." <-- I never finished reading this sentence, because those 3 words have no place or relevance here. Don't compare EVE to real life, period. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.01 02:47:00 - [63] "In real life" has every place in any discussion as a legitimate comparison and/or analogy.
R0ot Got R0ot	Posted - 2007.09.01 04:21:00 - [64] Edited by: R0ot on 01/09/2007 04:22:00 Edited by: R0ot on 01/09/2007 04:21:43 Originally by: Shi Lang Umm it IS relevent to the thread as some people here have said otherwise, as being the originator of the thread I think I have the right to determine what is or is not relevent. One person here has claimed that CCP allows it or that it is supported by them, I am merely answering that based on the notice I have recieved that that is not the case. scamming (being the topic of this thread) is not in any way condoned or supported by CCP. Okay lets delve into the actual Eve FAQ to answer your obvious misguidedness. From the Eve Online Player Guide Quote: Scam A scam is the act of obtaining goods from other players through misinformation, confusion, pressure or by taking advantage of basic trust. Players enter into business dealings with others at their own risk and are strongly urged to exercise good judgment and common sense when trading. Scams that relate to issues such as password scams or account theft scams are more serious and will result in an immediate ban. Game masters may intercede if a player illegally obtained items from another through use of an exploit. However, if a scam is reported and investigation shows that exploiting was not involved, depending on the circumstances and the severity of the scam, we may choose not to intervene. Now CCP goes on to tell you: Quote: Spotting scams While we make every effort to create a fun and safe environment for our players, there will be times when someone devises a way to take advantage of his fellow gamers. Knowledge and caution are necessary to avoid falling victim to a scammer. We will make every effort to educate our community on ways to spot common scams and avoid them. However, the ultimate responsibility for being a smart player lies with the individual. Those conducting scams will be warned, suspended or permanently banned, depending on the severity of the scam as determined by our investigation. If a deal sounds too good to be true, it probably is. "Buyer beware" should be the credo of all players doing business with casual acquaintances or complete strangers in the game. Now you may think just because you think something is wrong in game that it definately is against the rules, but take the time to submit a petition, thats what the system is there for to ask questions. Be sure to be specific, don't just say, "zomg this guy exploited me and stole all my stuffs!", explain the entire situation and reference names. Not all scams are exploits, in fact only a small amount of them are. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.01 04:46:00 - [65] Too bad that despite all the time it took for you to research all of this that it in no way contradicts the intent of my thread or for that matter my claim that CCP does not condone it, nor does it refute that a player driven means of punishing scammers is somehow a bad idea.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.01 05:18:00 - [66] well how about this for proof? scamming has been going on for four years, publicly, and ccp has known about it, and yet? they still allow it Why there should be a breathalyzer to login to Eve-Forums: Quote: Smacking my own alt in a nerf-thread while drunk, he was irritating a Hauler full of tech II n00bs, Oops.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.01 07:33:00 - [67] Originally by: Shi Lang Too bad that despite all the time it took for you to research all of this that it in no way contradicts the intent of my thread or for that matter my claim that CCP does not condone it, nor does it refute that a player driven means of punishing scammers is somehow a bad idea. the only way you can be scammed is if you're stupid... sad but true fact of Eve. However, if you need someone kicked in the nuts provided he's not in a noob corp you can hire us to dec em There, player justice = pay a merc corp. thread answered and can be done with Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.01 09:55:00 - [68] Originally by: Shi Lang "In real life" has every place in any discussion as a legitimate comparison and/or analogy. No, you're wrong, pure and simple. It has no place here, and it never will, period. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.01 12:03:00 - [69] Edited by: Devian 666 on 01/09/2007 12:03:44 This is quite simply the most stupid idea I have ever heard. The reasons why are as follows. - In civil actions you only get the $$$ back that you lost but it costs you time, money and hassle to recover the $$$ from the person. - The OP fundamentally does not understand what a scam is. It's a scam if you think it's a scam. You paid 150m isk for a skill book and one person thinks "what a bargain", another person thinks "I've paid 50m too much I've been scammed". A market scam is where you think the price is unfair. - There is also the trust scam. You corp mate asked of 20m isk and you've given it too him, one person thinks "I hope that helps him", and another person thinks "He tricked me out of my isk". Again the idea that it is a scam is in your own head. - The server cannot determine if you think you've been scammed. Thus the suggestion would leave everyone open to court action for performing everyday things and for being helped by people. Imagine that someone gives you 1m isk then they start a court action because you've scammed them. The court system would be most effectively weilded by pirates and suckers like the op would be swamped with stupid paperwork that'd be more effective than a war dec. - In Civil action in the real world the only ones that benefit are the lawyers. There's a reason why people think lawyers are thieves. - If this thread was subjected to the same court system it would be dismissed as frivolous and poorly considered. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.01 18:30:00 - [70] Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Shi Lang "In real life" has every place in any discussion as a legitimate comparison and/or analogy. No, you're wrong, pure and simple. It has no place here, and it never will, period. Ooooh I am shivering in my boots due to your witty and cleverly constructed come back.
Hanshin Kool Amarr Royal Amarr Institute	Posted - 2007.09.01 19:03:00 - [71] Edited by: Hanshin Kool on 01/09/2007 19:04:29 If there was some sort of ingame player-driven legal system, it would be the greatest scamming opportunity ever. Bribery of judges! Frivolous lawsuits! Corruption and greed! It would be just like the American legal system, and I get enough of that IRL thanks. :) But hey...if CCP thinks it's a good idea, I'm sure they'll implement something interesting. But don't expect some sort of super scam-prevention system, just something else to work though for the scam-intentioned. :)
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.01 19:17:00 - [72] Originally by: Shi Lang Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Shi Lang "In real life" has every place in any discussion as a legitimate comparison and/or analogy. No, you're wrong, pure and simple. It has no place here, and it never will, period. Ooooh I am shivering in my boots due to your witty and cleverly constructed come back. I love people who reason like you do - Argument doesn't hold? No problem! Attack the person you're debating with. If you're trying to remove all crediblity from yourself by smacktalking me, you succeded, nice work. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
wictro FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.02 00:34:00 - [73] this is allready happening. CCP regulates things, and gives some scams a "exploit" status. all other are fine and dandy. your options are numerous, if you need to get back to them. form a "anti scam corp" that goes after scammers for example. If there are more people like minded to you, you may have a chance. and according to forum whining. yes the is. but basically, the rules are set. and even the tutorial told me to not trust anyone. madness? this. is. EVE. -wic
wictro FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.02 00:36:00 - [74] Edited by: wictro on 02/09/2007 00:39:46 double post
Lana Bird	Posted - 2007.09.02 00:39:00 - [75] Ever heard of the phrase that you should not argue with fools cause they drag you down on their level and beat you with experience?
wictro FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.02 00:43:00 - [76] Originally by: Lana Bird Ever heard of the phrase that you should not argue with fools cause they drag you down on their level and beat you with experience? ye, i tought it as soon as i posted my answer. i still believe in humanity in some sick way. and some people may still have hope, if guided properly :) op is asking something that is there allready. CCP states: exploit scam = bad other scam = good you need to build your court from players, that have influence. do it _ingame_ -wic
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.09.02 08:48:00 - [77] Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/08/2007 22:15:51 Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. Please do explain to me how the game is to tell the difference on whether your ship/isk/item was stolen, or you just gave it to him? You have that option everytime someone has something of yours? You get to mark something as stolen after it's been lost? Imagine the scenario, noob gets a free frigate from some random guy, noob thinks "Hey awesome!", random guy marks the ship as stolen, wardecs, proceeds to kill noob over and over freely and legally in hi-sec, resulting in a very confused and unhappy noob. You buy a ship on contracts and before you know it, theres a wardec on your rear end..Market PvP'ing gets a whole new meaning! You do a direct trade with someone and pay them....wardec..same story Corp builds you a ship out of your minerals, you get the ships, leave the corp..wardec...same story again. You would randomly pass 5 isk around to everyone you dont like, mark the money as stolen and wardec - You want total chaos, well there you have it! You'd make a corp and invite a lot of people, open all hangars full of low-value random stuff and everytime someone removes a single item, you mark it as stolen, kick the person out of corp, wardec... It would be abused so morbidly that you'd make the ENTIRE market in all of EVE, crash permanently. I mean you think the stations in Jita are camped badly right now? Imagine when the pirate venue realises the possibilities in the system you suggest..600 people in Jita? Try 6000! I'd say thats a bad thing. Hey look its a corp thief! So how do the MC's hangars look like... juicy hmmm. Ok had to do it. As i said it was an ideia i didn't stated that it was the ultimate bullet proof ideia...lol, thought about it for 30s or something. Anyways there should be a system for these cases, if we have an economical system in EvE it makes sense to have a police force supported by players and something to tackle economical crime it would add more fun to the game. Kinda like players affiliated to Concord or another Corp receiving evemails with complaints or "petition" like messages, verifying facts and acting accordingly. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:07:00 - [78] Edited by: Cadela Fria on 02/09/2007 11:07:38 Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/08/2007 22:15:51 Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. Please do explain to me how the game is to tell the difference on whether your ship/isk/item was stolen, or you just gave it to him? You have that option everytime someone has something of yours? You get to mark something as stolen after it's been lost? Imagine the scenario, noob gets a free frigate from some random guy, noob thinks "Hey awesome!", random guy marks the ship as stolen, wardecs, proceeds to kill noob over and over freely and legally in hi-sec, resulting in a very confused and unhappy noob. You buy a ship on contracts and before you know it, theres a wardec on your rear end..Market PvP'ing gets a whole new meaning! You do a direct trade with someone and pay them....wardec..same story Corp builds you a ship out of your minerals, you get the ships, leave the corp..wardec...same story again. You would randomly pass 5 isk around to everyone you dont like, mark the money as stolen and wardec - You want total chaos, well there you have it! You'd make a corp and invite a lot of people, open all hangars full of low-value random stuff and everytime someone removes a single item, you mark it as stolen, kick the person out of corp, wardec... It would be abused so morbidly that you'd make the ENTIRE market in all of EVE, crash permanently. I mean you think the stations in Jita are camped badly right now? Imagine when the pirate venue realises the possibilities in the system you suggest..600 people in Jita? Try 6000! I'd say thats a bad thing. Hey look its a corp thief! So how do the MC's hangars look like... juicy hmmm. Ok had to do it. As i said it was an ideia i didn't stated that it was the ultimate bullet proof ideia...lol, thought about it for 30s or something. Anyways there should be a system for these cases, if we have an economical system in EvE it makes sense to have a police force supported by players and something to tackle economical crime it would add more fun to the game. Kinda like players affiliated to Concord or another Corp receiving evemails with complaints or "petition" like messages, verifying facts and acting accordingly. Ah yet another one who decides to attack me instead of the argument..cute..You don't know all the details, so don't comment.. As for the system, I don't know really, the system is already there really..it warns you to think about what you're doing, before doing it, so shrugs. Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:26:00 - [79] Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 02/09/2007 11:07:38 Originally by: Dionisius Originally by: Cadela Fria Edited by: Cadela Fria on 31/08/2007 22:15:51 Originally by: Dionisius Why not have a wardec style system? Player A gets scammed by player B, you choose the method, the articles that have been scammed and pay a small fee that will allow you and/or associates to shoot that person as long as the fee is payed. For that to happen you have to, Loose ship to that player. Loose Isk to that player. Loose items for that player. And something in the lines of the more time you keep the "war" against that person the mor the fee rises and its only valid against that one person. Would be nice to have at least a dim chance of having revenge against the scammer. Afterall if scamming is allowed then give some more powers to the people that want to enforce law in the game. Please do explain to me how the game is to tell the difference on whether your ship/isk/item was stolen, or you just gave it to him? You have that option everytime someone has something of yours? You get to mark something as stolen after it's been lost? Imagine the scenario, noob gets a free frigate from some random guy, noob thinks "Hey awesome!", random guy marks the ship as stolen, wardecs, proceeds to kill noob over and over freely and legally in hi-sec, resulting in a very confused and unhappy noob. You buy a ship on contracts and before you know it, theres a wardec on your rear end..Market PvP'ing gets a whole new meaning! You do a direct trade with someone and pay them....wardec..same story Corp builds you a ship out of your minerals, you get the ships, leave the corp..wardec...same story again. You would randomly pass 5 isk around to everyone you dont like, mark the money as stolen and wardec - You want total chaos, well there you have it! You'd make a corp and invite a lot of people, open all hangars full of low-value random stuff and everytime someone removes a single item, you mark it as stolen, kick the person out of corp, wardec... It would be abused so morbidly that you'd make the ENTIRE market in all of EVE, crash permanently. I mean you think the stations in Jita are camped badly right now? Imagine when the pirate venue realises the possibilities in the system you suggest..600 people in Jita? Try 6000! I'd say thats a bad thing. Hey look its a corp thief! So how do the MC's hangars look like... juicy hmmm. Ok had to do it. As i said it was an ideia i didn't stated that it was the ultimate bullet proof ideia...lol, thought about it for 30s or something. Anyways there should be a system for these cases, if we have an economical system in EvE it makes sense to have a police force supported by players and something to tackle economical crime it would add more fun to the game. Kinda like players affiliated to Concord or another Corp receiving evemails with complaints or "petition" like messages, verifying facts and acting accordingly. Ah yet another one who decides to attack me instead of the argument..cute..You don't know all the details, so don't comment.. As for the system, I don't know really, the system is already there really..it warns you to think about what you're doing, before doing it, so shrugs. Did i blew up your ship?Pod?No?Then i didn't atack you. Now the point of the thing is, to provide the folks, and i believe there are quite alot of them, with a system that can be effective on hunting scammers and criminals in general. My point is this, if we could have a system similar to the trade/wardec, so that we could retrieve items, judge cases, interact with more factions, like concord for instance that would be nice. Now to debate your last point, the warning is there but sometimes even the most carefull player can fall victim to scams so its only natural that you should be able to make amends. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:27:00 - [80] Originally by: wictro Originally by: Lana Bird Ever heard of the phrase that you should not argue with fools cause they drag you down on their level and beat you with experience? ye, i tought it as soon as i posted my answer. i still believe in humanity in some sick way. and some people may still have hope, if guided properly :) op is asking something that is there allready. CCP states: exploit scam = bad other scam = good you need to build your court from players, that have influence. do it _ingame_ -wic But CCP could provide some tools for those players to act, otherwise petitions will keep flowing to the GMs. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:46:00 - [81] Originally by: Dionisius Now the point of the thing is, to provide the folks, and i believe there are quite alot of them, with a system that can be effective on hunting scammers and criminals in general. My point is this, if we could have a system similar to the trade/wardec, so that we could retrieve items, judge cases, interact with more factions, like concord for instance that would be nice. Now to debate your last point, the warning is there but sometimes even the most carefull player can fall victim to scams so its only natural that you should be able to make amends. While I understand what it is you're wanting, and that it'd possibly make a lot of people happy - The idea however, is that it would, in my opinion, go against the idea of the game..which is a sandbox, where it's up to the player to come up with whatever they do with the game. Same thing with those pesky scammers (despite what you may think, I don't like scammers either), they came up with whatever it is they're doing...CCP put in the warning system, so that it would be up to the players to come up with their own counter for that. You see? I mean I sympathize and understand you on this one..it's just, it wouldn't really be in the spirit of them game in my opinion Knowledge is a priviledge, not a right
Dionisius Gallente The School of Fine Art	Posted - 2007.09.02 12:36:00 - [82] Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Dionisius Now the point of the thing is, to provide the folks, and i believe there are quite alot of them, with a system that can be effective on hunting scammers and criminals in general. My point is this, if we could have a system similar to the trade/wardec, so that we could retrieve items, judge cases, interact with more factions, like concord for instance that would be nice. Now to debate your last point, the warning is there but sometimes even the most carefull player can fall victim to scams so its only natural that you should be able to make amends. While I understand what it is you're wanting, and that it'd possibly make a lot of people happy - The idea however, is that it would, in my opinion, go against the idea of the game..which is a sandbox, where it's up to the player to come up with whatever they do with the game. Same thing with those pesky scammers (despite what you may think, I don't like scammers either), they came up with whatever it is they're doing...CCP put in the warning system, so that it would be up to the players to come up with their own counter for that. You see? I mean I sympathize and understand you on this one..it's just, it wouldn't really be in the spirit of them game in my opinion Yeh i know what you meen, in the end its the players that have to step foward and deal with the matter, still scammers are often in advantage, most are either experienced pvper's or alts of some other person wich makes thing a bit dificult for the scammed person. However i should point out the good example set by Outbreak in the alt scam case related with the BoB alliance member, now that was retribution. _______________________ Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.02 23:15:00 - [83] Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Shi Lang Originally by: Cadela Fria Originally by: Shi Lang "In real life" has every place in any discussion as a legitimate comparison and/or analogy. No, you're wrong, pure and simple. It has no place here, and it never will, period. Ooooh I am shivering in my boots due to your witty and cleverly constructed come back. I love people who reason like you do - Argument doesn't hold? No problem! Attack the person you're debating with. If you're trying to remove all crediblity from yourself by smacktalking me, you succeded, nice work. You call saying "your wrong" and then adding nothing pertinent to the conversation a credible and somehow well constructed arguement! slaps forehead I should've realized this sooner! Why waste hours writing a 5000 word essay on Libertarianism when I could just say "I am right." and leave it at that! And save myself 4997 words ands 10 hours of time spent on research. Brilliant, we should all learn by this example.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:54:00 - [84] very very bad idea. I dont want my game being ran like the united states of cunsumer bullcrap. 75% of people that file law suits are just cry babies.
Shi Lang	Posted - 2007.09.03 00:57:00 - [85] Think of it this way, it would make rl concepts such as banking, investments, and player driven insurence infinitely more feasible without having to go through complicated policies of reimbursement and collateral.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:00:00 - [86] Originally by: Shi Lang Think of it this way, it would make rl concepts such as banking, investments, and player driven insurence infinitely more feasible without having to go through complicated policies of reimbursement and collateral. You right it would be a good way to remove the remaining fun in the game. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
DarknessInc Minmatar Legion of Corpses Federation Of united Corps	Posted - 2007.09.03 01:18:00 - [87] :) What if that player being sued ingame is in 0.0, where Empire laws down apply and they cant touch them. HA. No fix for that eh? /signed. Much love to you too - Wachtmeister
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:49:00 - [88] Originally by: DarknessInc :) What if that player being sued ingame is in 0.0, where Empire laws down apply and they cant touch them. HA. No fix for that eh? What if the players write the law and mining is made illegal in empire. GCC flag for all miners in empire. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.03 02:52:00 - [89] Originally by: Devian 666 Originally by: DarknessInc :) What if that player being sued ingame is in 0.0, where Empire laws down apply and they cant touch them. HA. No fix for that eh? What if the players write the law and mining is made illegal in empire. GCC flag for all miners in empire. On a personal note... Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Originally by: TheDagda click For the love of the jovians stops necroing
Demarcus Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.03 08:10:00 - [90] Why? Since isk has a real life dollar value, you are perfectly able to sue a scammer in a real court. ------------------------------------- You are all worthless, and weak.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.09.03 08:32:00 - [91] Originally by: Demarcus Why? Since isk has a real life dollar value, you are perfectly able to sue a scammer in a real court. Not if you live in Canada... there it has a Looney value Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Originally by: TheDagda click For the love of the jovians stops necroing
PhantomVyper Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.03 10:30:00 - [92] Originally by: Demarcus Why? Since isk has a real life dollar value, you are perfectly able to sue a scammer in a real court. Suuuure you are...
Ovno ConSyquence Amarr Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.03 15:18:00 - [93] Originally by: Demarcus Why? Since isk has a real life dollar value, you are perfectly able to sue a scammer in a real court. 1) No it doesn't you can just swap game time for it. 2) Even if it did CCP still owns all of everybodys Isk, so your IRL law suit would be you sueing a scammer for scamming you out of something which you never owned. 3) CCP are in europe and EVE is hosted in the UK, so only sensible laws apply

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