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Tis' time - dampeners need to be chance based and 1 dampening per ship

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Max Payne	Posted - 2007.09.01 13:47:00 - [1] I.e. if you put 5 dampeners it can be dampened obviously but that should reduce target range no more than whatever the 1 dampener that did the dampening is doing - it should not be additive. Championship proved it. It's time dampeners worked just like jamming does. They are a kind of EW actually. Discuss
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:13:00 - [2] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 14:15:25 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 14:14:58 Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 14:13:20 Do you mean that it should only damp the range once and the scan res more than once? As odd as it sounds, I kind of agree. Chanced based? Not so much. Edit: rereading the odd wording, I think you want them to BE ecm, as in you can only damp once and it's all chanced based. With that line of thinking you might as well remove damps and start fitting ECM again. Op fails.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:13:00 - [3] Championship proves nothing, its a controlled environment which isnt eactly like normal pvp. Hence caldari ships are actually doing well
sov68n Caldari RABBLE-RABBLE Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:23:00 - [4] dampeners may seem overpowered, but they ARE stack nerfed, so if you fit 2 or 3 T2 sensor boosters, the enemy cannot fit enough dampeners to reduce your range past the default of the ship you're in. OK time for some math: Stacking Nerf Penalties: 1st mod: = 100.000% effectiveness 2nd mod:= 86.9119842% effectiveness 3rd mod:= 57.1037996% effectiveness 4th mod: = 28.2469117% effectiveness 5th mod:= 10.5988834% effectiveness 6th mod: = 2.9989473% effectiveness ok so that means: Sensor Booster T2 = 60% boost to Targeting Range + Scan Resolution 1st Sensor Booster: 60% 2nd Sensor Booster: 52.14719052% 3rd Sensor Booster: 34.26227976% That all adds up to: 146.40947028% boost to your range/res Sensor Dampener II = 48% remote penalty to Target Range + Scan Resolution of Target. 1st Dampener: 48% 2nd Dampener: 41.717752416% 3rd Dampener: 27.409823808% 4th Dampener: 13.558517616% 5th Dampener: 5.087464032% 6th Dampener: 1.439494704% Total: 137.213052576% So even if the guy attacking you has 6 dampeners, with 3 T2 sensor boosters you still have a 9.196417704% boost to your targeting range and scan resolution. If you don't want to have to fit 3 Boosters, then have fun being damped. Sensor boosters make things easy for you anyway, since the bonus to scan res makes thing easier to hit, and they counter damps. If you are unwilling to defend against it, it will defeat you. --- the KOS killboards nerfed our kill sigs!!!
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:31:00 - [5] A 100% stacking penalty on damps isnt as insane as it sounds you know. Dampener ships with rigs and skills can get a single damp up to like 80% effective, which on its own is pretty devastating. Hells, even give damps a slight power buff if it means only 1 will work. Ofc the chance based thing is a no-no cos everyone hates it, but making only the first damper effective would stop this whole silly mega dampening stuff that seem sto happen alot, and make the " Strong" damping ships more valuable, cos if you can sue 1 on a target every percent of strength you can squeeze out of them matters. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:34:00 - [6] Originally by: sov68n dampeners may seem overpowered, but they ARE stack nerfed, so if you fit 2 or 3 T2 sensor boosters, the enemy cannot fit enough dampeners to reduce your range past the default of the ship you're in. Stuff If you are unwilling to defend against it, it will defeat you. Which is simpy incorrect cos i have been in sniping ships with 3 Senor boosters fitted and been damped down to like 20% of my targetting range. A sensor booster could DOUBLE your lock range, and a Damper would only have to have a strength of 50% to counter it completely. More Maths: Starting lock range 100km. Sensor Booster doubles it to 200km. A single 50% Damp reduces that right back to 100km. Of course in real Eve a Sensor Booster 2 is only 60% and a Damp can be anything up to 80% with Top skills, rigs, and a damping ship. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:43:00 - [7] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 14:43:36 I was gonna bust out a bunch of math, but you beat me to it bldy =(
sov68n Caldari RABBLE-RABBLE Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:44:00 - [8] Edited by: sov68n on 01/09/2007 14:46:47 Edited by: sov68n on 01/09/2007 14:46:23 Originally by: bldyannoyed Originally by: sov68n dampeners may seem overpowered, but they ARE stack nerfed, so if you fit 2 or 3 T2 sensor boosters, the enemy cannot fit enough dampeners to reduce your range past the default of the ship you're in. Stuff If you are unwilling to defend against it, it will defeat you. Which is simpy incorrect cos i have been in sniping ships with 3 Senor boosters fitted and been damped down to like 20% of my targetting range. A sensor booster could DOUBLE your lock range, and a Damper would only have to have a strength of 50% to counter it completely. More Maths: Starting lock range 100km. Sensor Booster doubles it to 200km. A single 50% Damp reduces that right back to 100km. Of course in real Eve a Sensor Booster 2 is only 60% and a Damp can be anything up to 80% with Top skills, rigs, and a damping ship. Long Range Targeting lvl 5 = 25% boost to your default range, so theres a bit of help. Also fitting a Target Painter with Signature Focusing 5 will keep your scan res up. But yes, you are correct, if someone is REALLY serious about dampening you they can do it, but alot of people will only use t2 damps or even just t1 without rigs or insane skills, so the three boosters will defend against MOST damp ships. or you could fit a few Cormack's Modified Sensor Booster, for a 78% boost to range/res (even though that is outrageously expensive xD). --- the KOS killboards nerfed our kill sigs!!!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:50:00 - [9] Originally by: sov68n Long Range Targeting lvl 5 = 25% boost to your default range, so theres a bit of help. Also fitting a Target Painter with Signature Focusing 5 will keep your scan res up. But yes, you are correct, if someone is REALLY serious about dampening you they can do it, but alot of people will only use t2 damps or even just t1 without rigs or insane skills, so the three boosters will defend against MOST damp ships. or you could fit a few Cormack's Modified Sensor Booster, for a 78% boost to range/res. But there is your problem. We need up to 3 sensorbooster, and thus 3 midslots, to counter 2-3 damps on any ship, and yet a non-dedicated ship using ECM has like a 20% chance to jam with 3-4 ecm. Also, target painters don't keep your own res up... if you're already targeting the enemy and USING it, then logically you are already LOCKED and no longer need to... well... lock him? Maybe you mean an ally targeting painting him, but I'd rather my ally damp the damping ship.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:52:00 - [10] Originally by: Firkragg Championship proves nothing, its a controlled environment which isnt eactly like normal pvp. Hence caldari ships are actually doing well Very true. The PvP tournament they held at fanfest, RSD caracals were I-win. Why? Because unlike real PvP: The fight was at 0-140km range. Meaning midrange ships are useful. You can't warp. Meaning tackling isn't necessary. In this kind of situation, RSDs are awesome, as are missiles. Caldari ships are thus popular, because despite being 'long range' ships (and actaully, we haven't seen much in the way of long range railboats) the missile platforms are medium range really - they shine in the 24-100km range bracket. Real PvP is almost always at 0-24km or >150km. shrug. I am anticipating the 'caldari are fine in PvP' coming up, but ... really, this tournament isn't 'real' pvp. And Damps have always been really good. It's just they're not quite as fire and forget as ECMs, so everyone forgot about them.
sov68n Caldari RABBLE-RABBLE Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:54:00 - [11] Edited by: sov68n on 01/09/2007 14:54:59 Originally by: Atsuko Ratu But there is your problem. We need up to 3 sensorbooster, and thus 3 midslots, to counter 2-3 damps on any ship, and yet a non-dedicated ship using ECM has like a 20% chance to jam with 3-4 ecm. Also, target painters don't keep your own res up... if you're already targeting the enemy and USING it, then logically you are already LOCKED and no longer need to... well... lock him? Maybe you mean an ally targeting painting him, but I'd rather my ally damp the damping ship. well in fleet pvp theres always a few carriers to remote sensor boost you but this isn't ECM is it? and having to sacrifice 3 slots for the boosters is more practical than fitting sensor backup arrays. Target painters counteract low scan res by making the enemies sig rad higher, so if you find a way to counteract him with boosters, that will give you a large boost to "the hitting him" bonus. --- the KOS killboards nerfed our kill sigs!!!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 14:58:00 - [12] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 15:04:30 But there is no point in making him easier to target if you're already targeting him. It does not increase lock time unless an ally is target painting him. Also, your math is way off. 300km targeting range is reduced to 156 with one damp. 91.6 with a 2nd. Already below initial targeting range... Edit: Fire and forget ecms? You havn't been a ecm pilot in anything above 1v1 have you?
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:13:00 - [13] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 01/09/2007 15:13:21 The tournament in no way is close to any real PvP situation, because, normally, you'd just warp out. It's like saying 'nerf caracals, they won the tournament', or 'nerf missiles'. Er, both generally suck for PvP... Anyway, the nerf you'd proposing preety much amounts to: "remove damps from game completely". Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:23:00 - [14] Quote: We need up to 3 sensorbooster, and thus 3 midslots, to counter 2-3 damps on any ship OMG, a guy actually used 3 midslots and you need to use around the same to keep your lockingrange effective?? How rude!! Quote: Also, your math is way off. 300km targeting range is reduced to 156 with one damp. 91.6 with a 2nd. Already below initial targeting range... And your point is? The way damps work is forcing longrange setups to fight closerange. Thats the whole idea. Saw a math thingy once that showed the effects on a ship fitted with same amount sensorboosters as there was damps used on him. TBH, didnt look that bad actually. Another thing people tend to do is showing examples of maxed skills pilot in ships with rigs and/or bonuses and the best damps u can get... If we used the same examples on everything else in eve... OMG the nerfage!!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Bendit OMG, a guy actually used 3 midslots and you need to use around the same to keep your lockingrange effective?? How rude!! 3 midslots to counter 2 frigs using 1 damp each, and you still can not lock past initial lock range. That's unboosted tech2 damps. A single anti-ecm mod will make it nearly impossible for a 5-6 non-boosted racials to jam you (if you're in a bship or recon). Originally by: Bendit And your point is? The way damps work is forcing longrange setups to fight closerange. Thats the whole idea. Saw a math thingy once that showed the effects on a ship fitted with same amount sensorboosters as there was damps used on him. TBH, didnt look that bad actually. Another thing people tend to do is showing examples of maxed skills pilot in ships with rigs and/or bonuses and the best damps u can get... If we used the same examples on everything else in eve... OMG the nerfage!! 300km was a 100km ship boosted by 200% (3 sensorbooster 2s don't even do that). It has been damped twice by 2 tech2 unboosted damps (no skills, no bonuses, no rigs). Also I never called it unbalanced, I was merely proving his math wrong.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Bendit And your point is? The way damps work is forcing longrange setups to fight closerange. Thats the whole idea. Saw a math thingy once that showed the effects on a ship fitted with same amount sensorboosters as there was damps used on him. TBH, didnt look that bad actually. The 'problem' with damps imho is not that they force long range setups to fight close range. It is that they can completely disable closerange setups from participating in combat AT ALL. And even IF by some screwup the dampening guys move into targetting range, it will take ages to get a lock due to scan res also being reduced, another little fact that the damp fans tend to belittle or ignore. That and the obvious fact that many people like sov68n have no idea how damp math really works and thus are ignorant of how overpowered the things actually are. Plus of course people who will go to any length not to have their module of pwange nerfed. RSD-II with lvl4 in the damp strength skill is really not hard to get and fairly cheap too, so that MUST be the base for any damp calcs. And that is a base reduction down to 41.6% lock range and scan res. Three of those reduce it to 13.65%. Even when you fit three top end sensor boosters (+226%), you end up with 44% of your original lock range and scan res when triple-damped. And at least to me, that does not seem very well balanced. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:48:00 - [17] Quote: 2 frigs using 1 damp each, 2 frigs with bonuses?
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:53:00 - [18] Damps are fine. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Bendit Quote: 2 frigs using 1 damp each, 2 frigs with bonuses? No? I also approve of the death to your lock on range, it's the scan res reduction that is broken IMO. If you manage to insta teleport your sniper Bship within 10km of the target that is damping you, you will still need 60 seconds to even LOCK him. It kills a lot more than sniper ships.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:55:00 - [20] I don't think people should be expected to fit 3 t2 sensor boosters just to fight up close vs most damp ships. And if you don't know what I'm talking about you guys haven't seen a sacrilege with 2 - 3 damps and a 20km scram before (if 2 it's a web + scram) and damp rigs...not to mention any damps his gang mates have with them. TS web makes his setup even more sick. --- Put in space whales!
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 15:58:00 - [21] Quote: RSD-II with lvl4 in the damp strength skill is really not hard to get and fairly cheap too, so that MUST be the base for any damp calcs. And that is a base reduction down to 41.6% lock range and scan res. Three of those reduce it to 13.65%. Even when you fit three top end sensor boosters (+226%), you end up with 44% of your original lock range and scan res when triple-damped. And at least to me, that does not seem very well balanced. Looks like you are correct with the math. But remember,you also have other counters: FOF`s Drones Speed Range (Extremly short or long range 140km+) And you are not forced to stay there. You can say you are tackled, but the only ships able to keep you there and stay out of your range if you fit enough sensorboosters are the lachesis and arazu or someone with uber scram. Unless you are in a frigate wich will give you to short default lockrange. But from cruiser and up you will be able to deal with the tackler and get, and then come back in at YOUR desired range. We could also say that tanking is overpowered. If we use some of the same math. CS having above 80% resists all over the board. The tank is so big that certain BS arent able to break the tank. is that balanced?
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:02:00 - [22] Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 01/09/2007 16:05:34 Originally by: Bendit We could also say that tanking is overpowered. If we use some of the same math. CS having above 80% resists all over the board. The tank is so big that certain BS arent able to break the tank. is that balanced? When that same ship can still fit 2 t2 damps and make you useless? I'd say so =) but that's not that tanking's fault Edit: FoF are nice if you happen to be using one of the launchers that happens to be able to use them (lowest dps weapon type in game). Drones are a real counter though. Speed doesn't help much when the guys going 4500m/s and can easily damp + enter range, wait 55 of the 60 seconds itl take you to lock and leave your 8km range, rinse repeat. Speed doesn't help much in a bship and he's not. Also 24 km scram > 10km lock range.
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:08:00 - [23] Quote: No? I also approve of the death to your lock on range, it's the scan res reduction that is broken IMO. If you manage to insta teleport your sniper Bship within 10km of the target that is damping you, you will still need 60 seconds to even LOCK him. It kills a lot more than sniper ships. Did some numbers, and to be honest, it didnt look that bad: Default range with long range targeting lvl 5: 125km 1 damp and 1 sensorbooster = 104km 2 damp and 2 sensorbooster = 92.2km If you keep going with this, the lockrange of the damped ship will never go below 89km... I wouldnt call that overpowered.
Lisento Slaven Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:13:00 - [24] Originally by: Bendit Quote: No? I also approve of the death to your lock on range, it's the scan res reduction that is broken IMO. If you manage to insta teleport your sniper Bship within 10km of the target that is damping you, you will still need 60 seconds to even LOCK him. It kills a lot more than sniper ships. Did some numbers, and to be honest, it didnt look that bad: Default range with long range targeting lvl 5: 125km 1 damp and 1 sensorbooster = 104km 2 damp and 2 sensorbooster = 92.2km If you keep going with this, the lockrange of the damped ship will never go below 89km... I wouldnt call that overpowered. I don't think people who use long range setups don't have a right to complain because damps are supposed to mess up long range setups. It's the people that fight under 40km who get completely ruined by damps. Ever have your targetting range go below 10km before? How are you supposed to fit 2x t2 sensor boosters on a close range tackling ship? --- Put in space whales!
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:17:00 - [25] Quote: When that same ship can still fit 2 t2 damps and make you useless? I'd say so =) but that's not that tanking's fault 2 damps wouldnt made u useless, IF you had fitted for it. I also think this ***es of some people, cause they want to go in all guns blazing and pew pew. But when someon denies them that fun... click* something snaps and they goes all "HAXORZ, my guns cant shoot, death over ecm" And regarding tanks, I feel they are overpowered. Dual repping crazythings with high resists, gangbonuses, and implants... Quote: Speed doesn't help much when the guys going 4500m/s and can easily damp + enter range, wait 55 of the 60 seconds itl take you to lock and leave your 8km range, rinse repeat. If you only have 8km range. LOL thats your own fault then. maybe a sensorbooster or 2 would have helped a littlebit? Quote: Also 24 km scram > 10km lock range. A few snesorboosters would have fixed that.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Bendit Quote: No? I also approve of the death to your lock on range, it's the scan res reduction that is broken IMO. If you manage to insta teleport your sniper Bship within 10km of the target that is damping you, you will still need 60 seconds to even LOCK him. It kills a lot more than sniper ships. Did some numbers, and to be honest, it didnt look that bad: Default range with long range targeting lvl 5: 125km 1 damp and 1 sensorbooster = 104km 2 damp and 2 sensorbooster = 92.2km If you keep going with this, the lockrange of the damped ship will never go below 89km... I wouldnt call that overpowered. Again, False math and an unreasonable assumption. 1 damp vs. 1 booster: 125 * 1.6 * 0.416 = 83.2, not 104. Also, how many non-recon ships have a lock range of 125km after skill? Even the Rokh has less, and that is the BS with the best lock range... Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:23:00 - [27] Originally by: Bendit Quote: No? I also approve of the death to your lock on range, it's the scan res reduction that is broken IMO. If you manage to insta teleport your sniper Bship within 10km of the target that is damping you, you will still need 60 seconds to even LOCK him. It kills a lot more than sniper ships. Did some numbers, and to be honest, it didnt look that bad: Default range with long range targeting lvl 5: 125km 1 damp and 1 sensorbooster = 104km 2 damp and 2 sensorbooster = 92.2km If you keep going with this, the lockrange of the damped ship will never go below 89km... I wouldnt call that overpowered. So you did max range skill vs 0 bonused damps? Nice dude.
Tenebrious Quantum Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Bendit Quote: RSD-II with lvl4 in the damp strength skill is really not hard to get and fairly cheap too, so that MUST be the base for any damp calcs. And that is a base reduction down to 41.6% lock range and scan res. Three of those reduce it to 13.65%. Even when you fit three top end sensor boosters (+226%), you end up with 44% of your original lock range and scan res when triple-damped. And at least to me, that does not seem very well balanced. Looks like you are correct with the math. But remember,you also have other counters: FOF`s Drones Speed Range (Extremly short or long range 140km+) And you are not forced to stay there. You can say you are tackled, but the only ships able to keep you there and stay out of your range if you fit enough sensorboosters are the lachesis and arazu or someone with uber scram. Unless you are in a frigate wich will give you to short default lockrange. But from cruiser and up you will be able to deal with the tackler and get, and then come back in at YOUR desired range. We could also say that tanking is overpowered. If we use some of the same math. CS having above 80% resists all over the board. The tank is so big that certain BS arent able to break the tank. is that balanced? And Amarr has what? We don't have the midslots for SBs , not many ships can use drones... You get the picture. I agree wtih some of the other posters that the scan res penalty is really what breaks the damps.
Bendit	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:31:00 - [29] Edited by: Bendit on 01/09/2007 16:35:09 Edited by: Bendit on 01/09/2007 16:31:46 Quote: Again, False math and an unreasonable assumption. 1 damp vs. 1 booster: 125 * 1.6 * 0.416 = 83.2, not 104. Quote: So you did max range skill vs 0 bonused damps? Nice dude. I just replied to your post: Quote: 3 midslots to counter 2 frigs using 1 damp each, and you still can not lock past initial lock range. That's unboosted tech2 damps. Then I asked if it was ships with bonuses, like the maulus. and got this answer: Quote: No? Then I did the numbers. And the 125km lockrange was just to make it easy, nice round numbers. ( 100km default with long ragne targeting lvl 5) But if we used 3 mids as you said in the first post it would actually have almost the same lockrange: 123,8km
Atsuko Ratu Caldari VSP Corp.	Posted - 2007.09.01 16:32:00 - [30] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Also, how many non-recon ships have a lock range of 125km after skill? Even the Rokh has less, and that is the BS with the best lock range... To be fair, he was using my example ship (which is fictional, 100 base is so clean to use)

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