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The crazy disparity between the Amarr t1 & t2 lines

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Multimedia Carl	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:49:00 - [31] Lol deimos with Ac¦s, never seen that before. But yes, amarr is a very hard Race for beginners, and when you finally become good with them you get bored of them atleast i did, and so i changed to gallente
Insidi Us Amarr Suicidal Mercenaries The Makhai	Posted - 2007.09.06 07:44:00 - [32] Do not change the Apoc to a missile boat. I am still lobbying for it to get a smartbomb range and damage bonus per BS level. ----------- Fight the blob!
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.06 08:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Insidi Us Do not change the Apoc to a missile boat. I am still lobbying for it to get a smartbomb range and damage bonus per BS level. I had pretty much the same idea, makin amarr laser/smartbomb race... but with the khanid changes, it becames quite difficult not to spread amarr to wide over the board. I even had some ideas to make a new turret based smartbomb weapon, but that also this went down with the khanid change.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:53:00 - [34] I agree with the op 100% as well. I had crossed train my frigs and decide, enough is enough I need to spec in a race. At least for a while :D I did a bit of research on what race to go for which best suits me. I like the idea of the Pilgrim and I said '**** it, im going to train amarr cruiser V. In the mean time I tried a few amarr cruisers to get the hang on the race. I knew that one day Ill fly the sac. So I tried the Maller. OMG no dps. Eh who cares at least you have flexibility to fit the ship and it does have a mean tank for a t1 cruiser. Then comes the omen. The worst combat cruiser in the game. Couldn’t fit this ship at all, let alone fly it. Finally I get the chance to fly the pilgrim, A few months later, Nos nerf and Pilgrim is shot. At least I could fly the sac. Oh wait, I have poor missile skills.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:10:00 - [35] Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:17:00 - [36] Well all the races need to train a "secondary" weapon system at some point. It does kinda suck for amarr as a bunch of ships changed so rapidly (I feel really bad for pilgrim pilots). Also I thnk everyone can agree that the khanid ships as they used to be saw limited use. It is not like all those laser skills are wasted because you have to train some missle skills, in the case of HACs the zealot is still there. Then there is the fact that missle skills do not need a whole crapton of sp to be effective, more so if you only want to train HAMs and rockets. Amarr just got some very powerfull T2 ships at the cost of needing to train some missle skills. Your glass is half full, not half empty.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:20:00 - [37] What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:41:00 - [38] Originally by: bldyannoyed What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Both the Vexor and Arbitrator are better in PVP. Last I checked they're tier 2 cruisers. Of course, maybe its that I don't fly around in gangs of EIGHT Caracals with no tackle. Oh, and if you say that a Caracal, if its in a gang of more than 1 person, does not need to tackle, you have NEVER BEEN IN PVP. Seriously, GTFO. Liang Yarr?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:45:00 - [39] CBA to read whole whining: 1. khanid ships still have gun slots - want to use lasers? use em, noone stoprs you from this. 2. natural skill progression didnt look like: omen -> zealot maller -> sacri It was: omen -> zealot maller -> zealot Because sacri sucked so much. Now it is very good ship and suddenly lots of ppl that went: omen -> zealot maller -> zealot do: omen -> zealot -> sacri maller -> zealot -> sacri
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Vathar Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. Very nice, I really like the idea Oh, as for the whining about not having missile skills as an Amarr pilot is just lame. Everybody crosstrain, there's really no other way. You hit the wall one day, all turret skills maxed out. And then you move on to something else. And this is even easyer for new ppl, they can do this right off the bat. Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP are planning to give Amarrians some "oomph" Unfortunately, "oomph" is the sound one makes when kicked repeatedly in the ribs.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:03:00 - [41] I dont think its the fact that ppl dont have missile skills. Its really for the young players who join the amarr race that gets mislead. As early on its all about lasers to find out later for T2 its not. I like the changes, I wish it wasnt missiles but something totally different and new. The reason why I joined the amarr side was because its different and though using hams instead of heavy's is considered different it just doesnt have the same feeling as it could have been. Does this fix amarr? No, certainly not, they still have the worst Tear 1 bs in the geddon, the worst t1 cruiser in the omen. The zealot certainly does need extra dps or a boost that the deimos got, the recons are now totally flawed, the bc's are not all that flash. Still along way to go I just hope the answer to amarr questions isnt all missile ships.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:53:00 - [42] I wholeheartedly support the Maller and Apoc becoming black missile ships. It makes sense, it improves the progression, and gives some oomph to the T1 line of Amarr ships. But if that happens, the Omen needs a boost (maybe give it current maller specs and keeping its speed), otherwise there will be no more decent laser boat in the T1 cruiser line and that would just be wrong. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:03:00 - [43] Originally by: Vathar Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. In eve time line the APOC was introduced as replacement to the armageddon, jsut read that long chronicle about the antioch battle. When the Admiral gets back to Ammar he gets promoted and moved from his armageddon to one of the brand new Apocalipse class ships. I am trainign an Ammar alt, and I want to fire LASER with the APOC! Just give the APOC a damm HUGE PG, so it can Fit 8 tachyons without PG modules. That would be a very good role for it. A fleet ship capable of firing more than 30 seconds. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: bldyannoyed What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Both the Vexor and Arbitrator are better in PVP. Last I checked they're tier 2 cruisers. Of course, maybe its that I don't fly around in gangs of EIGHT Caracals with no tackle. Oh, and if you say that a Caracal, if its in a gang of more than 1 person, does not need to tackle, you have NEVER BEEN IN PVP. Seriously, GTFO. Liang I'm loving the whole " You've never been in PvP " thing you have latched on to. I've seen pilots soloing smaller ships in caracals before. Ive seen a Caracal with damps and a buddy in a cepter or some tackling cruiser have fights all their own way. Just because YOU'VE never seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. And it's all beside the point. The OP is right. The only thing CCP could find to do to balance up Amarr was throw a whole new skill set at them, completely destroying any natural progression. Vexor -> Ishtar Throax -> Deimos Caracal -> Cerberus Moa -> Eagle Stabber -> Vagabond Rupture -> Muninn Maller -> Sac. A whole new wepon set previously unseen on any amarr ship or any of their tech 2 derivatives. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:26:00 - [45] Originally by: bldyannoyed And it's all beside the point. The OP is right. Of course the OP is right. This entire discussion is because I (jokingly) offered the Caracal as an alternative cheap missile spammer and he flamed me for it. I still contend that there's more wrong with Caldari cruiser combat that Amarr cruiser combat, though. I'd like to see the Prophecy + whatever 2 other cruisers were offered up earlier switched to missiles too. I'd also like to see the tier system entirely dropped .. because an hour of training doesn't really justify making ships virtually useless. Liang Yarr?
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:31:00 - [46] torp apoc!!!! it would be sweet to have the ultimate mission running ship wouldn't it? think the reasons for caracels to be in the tournament was their long range, can use fofs, can fit damps, dont have to scramble, good firepower/point ratio. and isnt it normally smaller ships soloing caracels?
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:46:00 - [47] You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Depp Knight Does this fix amarr? No, certainly not, they still have the worst Tear 1 bs in the geddon, HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA Thats all :) Or maybe you just need to meet CVA on battlefield.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:48:00 - [49] Originally by: bldyannoyed You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. So you think this would be a bad idea? That all the cruisers would be balanced together? So you think we should have ships that are completely gimped in what they do because they were unfortunate enough not to be "top tier"? Liang Yarr?
Justin Cody Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:01:00 - [50] For RP reasons the sacrilege is perfectly balanced as to what Khanid should embody...or they could have reversed it. Khanid Kingdom is basically a fusion of Amarr culture and Caldari innovation, which means they are by default more flexible than Amarr proper. Which is why they get the Damnation as well. Khanid are more patient, calculating and mercurial than Amarr by tradition. of course they could have made it a shield tanking laser boat... but then you'd cap out so fast it isn't even funny, so quit whining. It isn't just about progression, but rather adaptation. Khanid are a separate branch of Amarr and a sovereign nation...perhaps there should be Ammatar variants as well, but there are not because while they govern themselves it is only semi-independently. Amarr isn't a mess, rather it has the highest likelihood to be re-engineered since its ships have been around ages longer than the Caldari have been able to travel in space. finally the sacrilege gets its due. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: bldyannoyed You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. So you think this would be a bad idea? That all the cruisers would be balanced together? So you think we should have ships that are completely gimped in what they do because they were unfortunate enough not to be "top tier"? Liang UUUUUUUUUUUUUUH. No. I said it would be pretty cool. The problem is worth ships that already arguably perform above what they should. If you're gonna balance all ships up to tier 3 or whatever than sensibly those ships are gonna get even better. Fr ships like Caracals, Blackbirds, Belicose, Omens and stuff i think it would be absolutely fantastic. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:14:00 - [52] Ah, I see. TBH, the Dominix (imho) performs pretty freaking well - and it's a tier 1 BS. IIRC, it's balanced by having fewers slots and terrible fittings. There's no reason the Vexor and other well performing cruisers can't be balanced in similar ways. Liang Yarr?
Testosterone Bomb Red Ballz	Posted - 2007.09.06 20:49:00 - [53] Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 06/09/2007 20:51:25 Dude Nothing really wrong with the fact that Amarr training paths now allow easy access to Short Range Missile Boats. What happened is that Amarr added another weapon system , just thank the gods that all your ships are still Armor tanks vs a mix of all weapon types and tanks like Mini. Peace
Bback	Posted - 2007.09.07 08:44:00 - [54] why do you guys keep wanting to change the 2 ships i like into missile ships (mauler and prophecy) mess with the ships no one uses and leave my good ones alone
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.09.07 08:52:00 - [55] I've always like that Amarr were turrets only (or mainly, rather). But now, many of you t2 ships look like the Minmatarr. Another step in making every race alike Yeah, laser are bad in PvP, but that is no excuse for removing flavor from the game.

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