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The crazy disparity between the Amarr t1 & t2 lines

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Kesc Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.04 23:52:00 - [1] Edited by: Kesc on 04/09/2007 23:54:30 Where on earth has the balance and natural skillpoint progression gone from Amarr? The whole race is a mess. You've got a ludicrous situation where there isn't one missile using t1 ship except a comedy t1 frigate no ever uses, and then you graduate to the amarr t2 ship lineup, and there are more missile boats than laser ships. What the hell? What on earth are new players supposed to do? Amarr already gets an awful t1 lineup. The other 3 races get 2 decent cruisers minimum. Amarr have debatably one, the Arbitrator, which itself requires training up skills off tangent from the majority of Amarr ships (and a much less desirable tangent too now that the Curse and Pilgrim have been nerfed to crap). So players who don't already have 20m SP and the established skills to fly and fit a variety of t2 ships and modules already, now have how an illogical choice whether to grind their way through the terrible amarr t1 line, only to get to the t2 ships and realize they don't have the SP or the in-game player knowledge to fly and use most of the ships. Or they train for missiles from the start and have nothing to fly for several interim months of the game. Clearly some balance needs to be restored to the Amarr ship lineups. One of the Amarr t1 cruisers and battleships needs to made a missile boat if these Khanid changes are going to be stuck with (and I doubt they can be changed back now). And one or two of the current Amarr t2 missile ships needs to changed back to lasers. I mean really, does the Heretic need to be a missile boat? How does that make sense compared to the other races? The Vengeance too? Really? Amarr is also the only race currently where all 3 battleships use the same weapon type. Meaning they all overlap each other and make each other semi-redundant. Making one some sort of missile boat would help with this. Can I also just add finally that I was extremely surprised how quickly this Khanid thing went from proposal -> In game? Usually CCP takes AGES of pondering before making any change. How long were we debating NOS and ECM on forums before they were changed?? So to see such sweeping changes to such a volume of game content in such a short time was weird. As a consequence it seems poorly thought through. Rant over
Nasair	Posted - 2007.09.05 00:11:00 - [2] Originally by: Kesc Edited by: Kesc on 04/09/2007 23:59:23 Where on earth has the balance and natural skillpoint progression gone from Amarr? The whole race is a mess. You've got a ludicrous situation where there isn't one missile using t1 ship except a comedy t1 frigate no ever uses, and then you graduate to the amarr t2 ship lineup, and there are more missile boats than laser ships. What the hell? What on earth are new players supposed to do? Amarr already gets an awful t1 lineup. The other 3 races get 2 decent cruisers minimum. Amarr have debatably one, the Arbitrator, which itself requires training up skills off tangent from the majority of Amarr ships (and a much less desirable tangent too now that the Curse and Pilgrim have been nerfed to crap). So players who don't already have 20m SP and the established skills to fly and fit a variety of t2 ships and modules already, now have how an illogical choice whether to grind their way through the terrible amarr t1 line, only to get to the t2 ships and realize they don't have the SP or the in-game player knowledge to fly and use most of the ships. Or they train for missiles from the start and have nothing to fly for several interim months of the game. Clearly some balance needs to be restored to the Amarr ship lineups. One of the Amarr t1 cruisers and battleships needs to made a missile boat if these Khanid changes are going to be stuck with (and I doubt they can be changed back now). And one or two of the current Amarr t2 missile ships needs to changed back to lasers. I mean really, does the Heretic need to be a missile boat? How does that make sense compared to the other races? The Vengeance too? Really? Amarr is also the only race currently where all 3 battleships use the same weapon type. Meaning they all overlap each other and make each other semi-redundant. Making one some sort of missile boat would help with this. Can I also just add finally that I was extremely surprised how quickly this Khanid thing went from proposal -> In game? Usually CCP takes AGES of pondering before making any change. How long were we debating NOS and ECM on forums before they were changed?? So to see such sweeping changes to such a volume of game content in such a short time was weird. As a consequence it seems poorly thought through. Rant over I apologise if there is a running thread already specifically on this. Those awsome cruisers all have different weapon systems, Amarr can stick with just gunnery and then train missiles when they reach tech II. What's the problem?
Sharupak Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.05 00:11:00 - [3] Quote: Amarr is also the only race currently where all 3 battleships use the same weapon type. Meaning they all overlap each other and make each other semi-redundant. Making one some sort of missile boat would help with this. When you get to this stage in minmatar, you have to have the skill training for guns missles shield tanking and armor tanking and drones. I have 8.5 million sp and my typhoon is just starting to open up for me. However, with the frigs and cruisers, that does kinda suck. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude.
Emperor D'Hoffryn No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.09.05 00:22:00 - [4] maller and apoc should become missle ships. there. I said it. Its out there, and now we have to deal with it. Im fine with amarr being different....even tho its not really...caldari got turret and missle ships, minnies got armor and shield tanking ships. gallente drones are a must along with nos, er, i mean hybrids. its not a big deal....but I will agree that far too many t2 ships are khanid....some more viziam ships would be interesting. Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
Kesc Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.05 00:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Nasair Those awsome cruisers all have different weapon systems, Amarr can stick with just gunnery and then train missiles when they reach tech II. What's the problem? Well there are two problems. First, it can be easy to forget when you've been playing this game for 2-4 years that EVE has an extremely steep learning curve. That's why allowing new players to easily dabble is a good thing, as well as a logical progression of ships and skills. Let's say you start playing around with damps which you cam use within days of starting the game, and find you really enjoy flying ewar. You can spend 6 months if really wish now becoming an ace Arazu pilot. You play, you find you enjoy, and if you want you spend more time raising your skills to fly and bigger and better Celestis > Arazu Rupture > Hurricane > Muninn Stabber > Vagabond Vexor > Myrmidon > Ishtar Thorax > Brutix > Deimos and then.. ???? > Sacriledge See what I mean. And the second problem is: Even veteran players regularly fly t1 ships. It doesn't make any sense that I can spend 2 months raising missile skills and training for t2 HAMs, and the second I can't afford to slap down 80m for a Sacriledge I can't use those skills and they are going to waste. Because there is no t1 alternative. I think that kinda sucks.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.05 00:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Kesc Originally by: Nasair Those awsome cruisers all have different weapon systems, Amarr can stick with just gunnery and then train missiles when they reach tech II. What's the problem? Well there are two problems. First, it can be easy to forget when you've been playing this game for 2-4 years that EVE has an extremely steep learning curve. That's why allowing new players to easily dabble is a good thing, as well as a logical progression of ships and skills. Let's say you start playing around with damps which you cam use within days of starting the game, and find you really enjoy flying ewar. You can spend 6 months if really wish now becoming an ace Arazu pilot. You play, you find you enjoy, and if you want you spend more time raising your skills to fly and bigger and better Celestis > Arazu Rupture > Hurricane > Muninn Stabber > Vagabond Vexor > Myrmidon > Ishtar Thorax > Brutix > Deimos and then.. ???? > Sacriledge See what I mean. And the second problem is: Even veteran players regularly fly t1 ships. It doesn't make any sense that I can spend 2 months raising missile skills and training for t2 HAMs, and the second I can't afford to slap down 80m for a Sacriledge I can't use those skills and they are going to waste. Because there is no t1 alternative. I think that kinda sucks. You could spend 3 days crosstraining the Caracal... Liang Yarr?
Kesc Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:00:00 - [7] Edited by: Kesc on 05/09/2007 01:05:45 Edited by: Kesc on 05/09/2007 01:04:18 Originally by: Liang Nuren You could spend 3 days crosstraining the Caracal... Liang Yes, and shields skills as well? Then why did I train Amarr in the first place? Why have races at all? It's just a giant mish mash where you require a bit of everything, and everything crosses over. Why not just have a general Cruiser skill, instead of making you go Amarr Cruiser level 1,2,3, and Caldari Cruiser level 4,5 etc if you aren't going have clear sequences of ship? Should the Rupture be deleted and Minmatar pilots told to spend 3 days training Gallante cruiser, after all the Thorax uses gunnery, drones and armour too so no matter? Not flaming, genuinely wanting opinion.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:02:00 - [8] Edited by: Nomakai Delateriel on 05/09/2007 01:03:25 Quote: The whole race is a mess. You've got a ludicrous situation where there isn't one missile using t1 ship except a comedy t1 frigate no ever uses, and then you graduate to the amarr t2 ship lineup, and there are more missile boats than laser ships. The inquisitors lack of use is probably more due to the lack of missile ships to progress to (although the kestrel has more firepower) than any sort of "comedy" status for the ship itself. It's a good low-sec cargorunner, decent mission runner and a fair tackler. Quote: The other 3 races get at least 2 decent cruisers. Amarr have debatably one, the Arbitrator The Maller has its role in PvP, and I've seen CVA and PIE put it to great use on several occasions. Ok, so it's a role that isn't very cruiser-like and very specialized, but it fulfills it well. Omen and Augoror... maybe not so much, but the Omen is a decent low-sec/0.0 ratter as long as you stick to Sansha and Bloodraider territory (good firepower, no use of ammo, decent cargohold). Quote: One of the Amarr t1 cruisers and battleships needs to made a missile boat if these Khanid changes are going to be stuck with (and I doubt they can be changed back now). And one or two of the current Amarr t2 missile ships needs to changed back to lasers. I mean really, does the Heretic need to be a missile boat? How does that make sense compared to the other races? The Vengeance too? Really? I like the new Heretic and Vengeance. If you don't like the Vengeance there is always the Retribution. As for missile boats, it's probably true that the Amarr needs a cruiser that can be a more pronounced missile boat, but the arbitrator is already a boat that for "progression" could be used as one. Maybe even pronounce that angle a bit with a third missile slot? Quote: Amarr is also the only race currently where all 3 battleships use the same weapon type. Meaning they all overlap each other and make each other semi-redundant. Making one some sort of missile boat would improve this. The Amarr lineup needs some work, as currently there isn't a practical use for an Apocalypse outside mining (as the Abaddon and Armageddon outshines it in many ways), but turning it into a missile ship isn't the only solution. However, as an RPer I don't find anything wrong with the "confusion" in the Amarr line-up, as the Amarr navy has gone from "masters of the universe", an unstoppable fleet of purging lasers (before Vak'Atioth), to a fleet desperatly seeking that new super-weapon that will allow them to resume their old business (and as such explore every aspect, from missiles to drones to electronic warfare). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn ... its not a big deal....but I will agree that far too many t2 ships are khanid....some more viziam ships would be interesting. There's allways one Viziam and one Khanid ship per class, but Covert Ops or Interdictor. The new Heretic is sweet as hell with it's 6 Laucher-Slots, as you can hit your Target while orbiting with MWD at 20km, so there's no point for having a Viziam-Dictor. .
Kesc Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:31:00 - [10] Originally by: Nomakai Delateriel The inquisitors lack of use is probably more due to the lack of missile ships to progress to (although the kestrel has more firepower) than any sort of "comedy" status for the ship itself. It's a good low-sec cargorunner, decent mission runner and a fair tackler. Yes you might be right. I've never seen one used ever I think, so I assumed it was useless. But it's bonuses don't look too bad and maybe it is already fine as the frigate sized missile boat. Quote: The Maller has its role in PvP, and I've seen CVA and PIE put it to great use on several occasions. Ok, so it's a role that isn't very cruiser-like and very specialized, but it fulfills it well. Omen and Augoror... maybe not so much, but the Omen is a decent low-sec/0.0 ratter as long as you stick to Sansha and Bloodraider territory (good firepower, no use of ammo, decent cargohold). Yes the Maller and Omen have some uses. But they compare poorly to much more commonly used cruisers like the Stabber/Rupture, Thorax/Vexor/Celestis, Caracal/Blackbird etc Quote: I like the new Heretic and Vengeance. Yeah I like them too, and the old versions were rubbish. But using missiles as the main weapon on a niche ship like the Heretic doesn't fit, it's like having the Sabre as a drone boat. Quote: The Amarr lineup needs some work, as currently there isn't a practical use for an Apocalypse outside mining (as the Abaddon and Armageddon outshines it in many ways), but turning it into a missile ship isn't the only solution. I think they should have done something creative with the Abaddon. I wouldn't like to see the Apoc change, it would really ruin the ship's description etc. It's also the best battleship for running a full rack of Tachyon II's plus fitting a MWD I believe. So it has a use. Quote: However, as an RPer I don't find anything wrong with the "confusion" in the Amarr line-up, as the Amarr navy has gone from "masters of the universe", an unstoppable fleet of purging lasers (before Vak'Atioth), to a fleet desperatly seeking that new super-weapon that will allow them to resume their old business (and as such explore every aspect, from missiles to drones to electronic warfare). I actually like this reason haha, it's the first one yet I've liked. If they made it into a roleplay angle and maybe had just 1 ship using cruiser-sized missile mods (to give some t1 continuity to the missile using HACs and Command Ships) I would be happy.
Vandalias	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:52:00 - [11] Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn maller and apoc should become missle ships. agreed
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.05 01:55:00 - [12] Torp apoc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! maller isnt that bad of a crusier. not sure if i would want to see one of the amarr bcs getting missiles though. although that still leaves a gap
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.05 02:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Kesc Can I also just add finally that I was extremely surprised how quickly this Khanid thing went from proposal -> In game? Usually CCP takes AGES of pondering before making any change. 14 months isn't exactly lightning fast either. And that's only the culmination of a lot of complaining about the Khanid situation going back much further than that. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Lord Berk Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.05 02:31:00 - [14] I agree with Noma on a lot of his points. The Maller is something every Amarr pilot should be familiar with. From there, the pilot will have a firm grasp of what flying Amarr is all about. We are renowned for our lasers and armor - the Khanid path (and my bloodline) IS something different and should be maintained as such. The Khanid MKII patch is by no means what constitutes being Amarr - read our backstory. If you are asking for a "stepping stone" from traditional Amarr to the Khanid path that is understandable - it is a considerable leap - I like it as such tho. Say what you will - if you stick with Amarr - your loyalty does gets rewarded - properly trained, the Abaddon is a beast as more and more pod pilots are discovering. In P Vs P The Harbinger, with tackling support can be devastating. The Khanid patch was a good thing - it opened up some options. I know which way I'm going. If you require any assistance setting up either a Harby or Abaddon, don't hestiate to send me a mail. -------------------------------- Nice Apoc! Going mining?
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.05 02:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Kesc Edited by: Kesc on 05/09/2007 01:08:26 Originally by: Liang Nuren You could spend 3 days crosstraining the Caracal... Liang Yes, and shields skills as well? Then why train Amarr in the first place? Why have races at all? It's just a giant mish mash where you require a bit of everything, and everything crosses over. Why not just have a general Cruiser skill, instead of making you go Amarr Cruiser level 1,2,3, and Caldari Cruiser level 1,2,3,4,5 etc if you aren't going have clear sequences of ships? Should the Rupture be deleted and it be no big loss because Minmatar pilots can just spend 3 days training Gallante cruiser, after all the Thorax also uses gunnery, drones and armour too? Not flaming, genuinely wanting opinion. You misunderstand - the Caracal is never flown with a tank anyway. I did a bit long writeup of the state of Caldari cruiser combat about 70-80 days back, if you care to look it up. As it turns out, the Osprey doesn't count, and the Caracal dies in < 30 seconds to a PVP fit Thorax / Vexor. It will (eventually) beat the Thorax out if and only if the engagement starts at 20+ km, and the Caracal has a faction web. It is impossible (imho) to beat a well fit/piloted Vexor in a Caracal - no matter what the starting situation (barring tourneys where nobody warps out). At any rate, the Caracal that would be suggested (since you obviously lack imagination and just want to whine some): 5x HAM II (Terror Assaut, CN if you prefer) MWD I, 3x RD II, Sensor Booster II RCU I, BCU II 2x Hobgoblin II I tried to keep the price down for modules below ~3mil / ea. It should also be noted that if you spend the 3-4 days cross-training the Caracal, you'll be in fine position for the Drake - which is also completely viable without shield skills. In case you lack imagination on that front, I suggest: 7x HAM II (CN Terror Assault) MWD II, 3x RSD II, Warp Disruptor II, Fleeting Web II 2x BCU II, 2x OD II No rigs (You said you'd fly a Sac if you were bawlin' it). Liang Yarr?
Berendas	Posted - 2007.09.05 04:03:00 - [16] I gotta say I agree with the OP 100%. Amarr are my favorite race. The lasers and Protoss-like hulls are captivating to me. I was training up some Amarr skills (ie energy turret, spaceship command) to switch from Gallente to Amarr. When CCP pulled this switcheroo it burned me up. Because A) The missles ruin the elegance the Amarr display so well. and B) Because the skills are now all over the place. The Damnation was my mid-term goal for EVE but I hate missle ships, especially Amarrian ones and the weapon skills I have don't matter for it anymore. It's really unfair that the Amarr are as broken and lacking in continuity as they are.
Luke Pubcrawler	Posted - 2007.09.05 08:19:00 - [17] I agree with the Op, at least to a degree. The inquisitor is not that bad a t1 frigate - I must be one of the rare pilots to actually fly one in pvp (in an empire war when a month old), and it was usable if not outstanding. So from the frigate point of view the Amarr missile progression is covered. Cruisers are not great - however Arbitrator and Omen can use missiles to some degree. An arby with nos/neut and missiles is a reasonable ship. Increasing the total number of launcher slots on this would be ok. Maller could be given more launcher slots (not total hi slots) - it has no real laser bonus anyway and is already flown with ACs as often as lasers. Same with the Apoc - leave it as is bonus wise but add 2 more launcher slots. The changes to Maller and apoc are easy to rationalise in the aftermath of the Jove war and the Caldari links. These are still Amarr ships but "modernised" slightly to allow missile options.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.05 08:25:00 - [18] Given a choice between flying a Punisher and an Inquisitor, I'd take the Inquisitor any day of the week. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Wideen Resurrection R i s e	Posted - 2007.09.05 09:37:00 - [19] Edited by: Wideen on 05/09/2007 09:41:28 In the cruiser department, Amarr is far better than Caldari... Amarr has the Omen and Arbitrator which are both great ships imo - caldari have the BB which is fairly efficient in gangs and then the infamous Crapacal which is a treat to come across if you're out to pvp since they just absolutely suck. The Moa? let's not go there... So I for one happen to like the Amarr cruiser-line of ships, especially if compared to the caldari counterpart Edit: and the Maller is great too! Originally by: P'uck I know somebody who heard somebody say that an Osprey defeated Chuck Norris. Twice. Need I say more?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.09.05 09:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Kesc Edited by: Kesc on 05/09/2007 01:08:26 Originally by: Liang Nuren You could spend 3 days crosstraining the Caracal... Liang Yes, and shields skills as well? No, 1 more day for damps.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.05 10:07:00 - [21] Edited by: Xequecal on 05/09/2007 10:07:07 Originally by: Wideen Edited by: Wideen on 05/09/2007 09:41:28 In the cruiser department, Amarr is far better than Caldari... Amarr has the Omen and Arbitrator which are both great ships imo - caldari have the BB which is fairly efficient in gangs and then the infamous Crapacal which is a treat to come across if you're out to pvp since they just absolutely suck. The Moa? let's not go there... So I for one happen to like the Amarr cruiser-line of ships, especially if compared to the caldari counterpart Edit: and the Maller is great too! LOL, Omen is a piece of ****. It's the worst combat-oriented cruiser in the game, having only four turrets and fitting stats so horrible it can't even fit four Heavy Pulse. The Thorax does more than two times its DPS, not kidding at all. Maller isn't bad, but that's because you can put autocannons on it and have a great tank. I don't think there's a single Amarr Tier 1 Frigate or Cruiser that can both use lasers and not suck. Harbinger is the first competent laser boat that Amarr gets.
Kesc Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.05 10:19:00 - [22] Originally by: Liang Nuren It should also be noted that if you spend the 3-4 days cross-training the Caracal, you'll be in fine position for the Drake - which is also completely viable without shield skills. Wow really? In that case delete the Cyclone too . Who needs a minmatar battlecruiser as precursor to the Sliepnir, There is already the Drake as a shield using battlecruiser, and only a 4 day cross train. Clearly this is fine. Ps. You missed my point. I am aware how to run a damp Caracal. Believe me in the past I've flown more Caracal's in fleets than you and always running ECM or damps. And it has always been good practice to stick 1 or 2 Large shield extenders on there. If you are aligned and up to speed and get primaried in a fleet fight the buffer from the lse might just allow you to warp out alive. And if you are damping the **** out of enemy BS you will get primaried soon enough.
Berendas	Posted - 2007.09.06 03:03:00 - [23] Guess my shiny Amarr ships won't do me well in PVP for a good long while...
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 03:42:00 - [24] Originally by: Kesc Originally by: Liang Nuren It should also be noted that if you spend the 3-4 days cross-training the Caracal, you'll be in fine position for the Drake - which is also completely viable without shield skills. Wow really? In that case delete the Cyclone too . Who needs a minmatar battlecruiser as precursor to the Sliepnir, There is already the Drake as a shield using battlecruiser, and only a 4 day cross train. Clearly this is fine. Ps. You missed my point. I am aware how to run a damp Caracal. Believe me in the past I've flown more Caracal's in fleets than you and always running ECM or damps. And it has always been good practice to stick 1 or 2 Large shield extenders on there. If you are aligned and up to speed and get primaried in a fleet fight the buffer from the lse might just allow you to warp out alive. And if you are damping the **** out of enemy BS you will get primaried soon enough. Actually, I posit that you were the one who missed my point. If you go back and read my original post carefully, the point might not be beyond you yet. Ah screw it - just for the super dense amongst us, the Caracal is utter rubbish. Caldari cruiser combat is even now in a worse position than Amarr cruiser combat. But you wanted a cheap missile platform. With that said, the Cyclone actually performs a function (and a rather good one, tbh). For instance - how many turret points did the Drake have again? Really? NONE? WTF is that hogwash? You should have compared it to the Ferox - whereby I would ask how many damage bonuses the Ferox gets. Now, with regards to how many caracals I've flown in fleet: None. Flown them in gang a couple of times before I decided that the Caracal is complete, total, utter rubbish. The Celestis is for damping, and the Blackbird is for jamming. If you want ewar, use an ewar ship. Oh - and if you get primaried in fleet combat, you'll be lucky to even notice you got primaried before you're in the egg. Maybe you need to learn what a fleet is? Now don't think that I'm not sympathetic to your lack of T1 missile ships in Amarr. I just think its silly that Amarr HACs gets better missile bonuses than Caldari. Liang Yarr?
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 04:57:00 - [25] Edited by: bldyannoyed on 06/09/2007 04:57:45 Roflcopterz. The Caracal is quite clearly not rubbish. Given that 90% of Eve's player base seems to take the Caracal over any other cruiser ( Tournament teams with 8 caracals anyone ) they are quite clearly a popular ship. The OP is right. Amarr ships are all bit screwey. Other races seem to manage to find different roles for their ships without requiring the training of wildly disparate skill sets. Muninn vs Vagabond Caracal vs Eagle Deimos vs Ishtar All those ships use skills you would train for your tech 1 ships. But what possible reason would you have for training rockets and HAM's for any tech1 Amarr ship? There is absolutley none. Not a single Tech1 Amarr ship could make effective use of either of those weapon systems. And in essence its actully worse than, for example, making a Cladari ship with projectile bonuses. At least all turrets have the same support skills, but going from lasers to missiles requires the training of another 3 or 4 million SP's of support skills to be truley competitive. The new Sacrilege may well be a good ship in its own right, but sure as **** isnt an Amarr ship. It's like CCP have taken the idea of Khanid ships and turned them into a whole new race. Really, who can readily identify Ishokune, Roden, Lai Dai, Duvolle, Credron, Boundless, Thukker or Viziam? Theyre just arbitrary tags. But suddenly Khanid has to be this massive entity all on its own. It must suck to be Amarr. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 05:46:00 - [26] Quote: Roflcopterz. The Caracal is quite clearly not rubbish. Given that 90% of Eve's player base seems to take the Caracal over any other cruiser ( Tournament teams with 8 caracals anyone ) they are quite clearly a popular ship. rofflcopterz. Tournaments aren't exactly regular pvp - maybe you should undock and try it out some time. Quote: Other races seem to manage to find different roles for their ships without requiring the training of wildly disparate skill sets. ----- rofflcopters ---- ever try Minmatar? Yeah, I thought not. Quote: The new Sacrilege may well be a good ship in its own right, but sure as **** isnt an Amarr ship. It's like CCP have taken the idea of Khanid ships and turned them into a whole new race. You HAVE read the description of Khanid corp... right? You DO know about the Caldari-Amarr roleplay interactions? Hmph. Quote: Really, who can readily identify Ishokune, Roden, Lai Dai, Duvolle, Credron, Boundless, Thukker or Viziam? Me, actually. Quote: It must suck to be Amarr. You ever try to PVP in a shield tank? Yeah. Ok, get back to me. Quote: The OP is right. Amarr ships are all bit screwey. Eh, the OP has a point - but its only a minor point tbh. There are worse inconsistencies and balance problems in the game. Liang Yarr?
roger beefcurtains	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:07:00 - [27] give the prophecy 5 x missile slots, increase cpu, lower pg and swap the laser bonus for a heavy assault missile flight time or damage bonus. i would love a T1 varient of the damnation.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:18:00 - [28] Originally by: roger beefcurtains give the prophecy 5 x missile slots, increase cpu, lower pg and swap the laser bonus for a heavy assault missile flight time or damage bonus. i would love a T1 varient of the damnation. Prophecy (Mk 2!): 1100 PG, 450 CPU 7x high, 5x Launcher, 2x Turret 4x mid 7x low 25m^3 drone bay 5% resist / level, 5% missile launcher rof / level. omgrawr, I must trainz! Note: This makes the assumption that CCP drops the tier system. We can hope, right? Liang Yarr?
Berendas	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:24:00 - [29] Edited by: Berendas on 06/09/2007 06:25:15 Edited by: Berendas on 06/09/2007 06:24:12 With the Amarr-Cladari thing then you could also say; "Well Gallente and Minmatar seem to be buddies, so why don't we just make Deimos's use howitzers and make the Eos's shield tank?"
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:29:00 - [30] Originally by: Berendas Edited by: Berendas on 06/09/2007 06:25:15 Edited by: Berendas on 06/09/2007 06:24:12 With the Amarr-Cladari thing then you could also say; "Well Gallente and Minmatar seem to be buddies, so why don't we just make Deimos's use howitzers and make the Eos's shield tank?" Last I checked, the Eos could shield tank at least as well as the Drake. And the Deimos would use AUTOCANNONS. Please read its bonuses. ^_^ Liang Yarr?
Multimedia Carl	Posted - 2007.09.06 06:49:00 - [31] Lol deimos with Ac¦s, never seen that before. But yes, amarr is a very hard Race for beginners, and when you finally become good with them you get bored of them atleast i did, and so i changed to gallente
Insidi Us Amarr Suicidal Mercenaries The Makhai	Posted - 2007.09.06 07:44:00 - [32] Do not change the Apoc to a missile boat. I am still lobbying for it to get a smartbomb range and damage bonus per BS level. ----------- Fight the blob!
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.06 08:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Insidi Us Do not change the Apoc to a missile boat. I am still lobbying for it to get a smartbomb range and damage bonus per BS level. I had pretty much the same idea, makin amarr laser/smartbomb race... but with the khanid changes, it becames quite difficult not to spread amarr to wide over the board. I even had some ideas to make a new turret based smartbomb weapon, but that also this went down with the khanid change.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 12:53:00 - [34] I agree with the op 100% as well. I had crossed train my frigs and decide, enough is enough I need to spec in a race. At least for a while :D I did a bit of research on what race to go for which best suits me. I like the idea of the Pilgrim and I said '**** it, im going to train amarr cruiser V. In the mean time I tried a few amarr cruisers to get the hang on the race. I knew that one day Ill fly the sac. So I tried the Maller. OMG no dps. Eh who cares at least you have flexibility to fit the ship and it does have a mean tank for a t1 cruiser. Then comes the omen. The worst combat cruiser in the game. Couldn’t fit this ship at all, let alone fly it. Finally I get the chance to fly the pilgrim, A few months later, Nos nerf and Pilgrim is shot. At least I could fly the sac. Oh wait, I have poor missile skills.
Vathar Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:10:00 - [35] Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. Originally by: Radeberger If you plan to make your alliance combat based, recruit pvpers with mining alts rather than miners with pvp alts[/qu
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:17:00 - [36] Well all the races need to train a "secondary" weapon system at some point. It does kinda suck for amarr as a bunch of ships changed so rapidly (I feel really bad for pilgrim pilots). Also I thnk everyone can agree that the khanid ships as they used to be saw limited use. It is not like all those laser skills are wasted because you have to train some missle skills, in the case of HACs the zealot is still there. Then there is the fact that missle skills do not need a whole crapton of sp to be effective, more so if you only want to train HAMs and rockets. Amarr just got some very powerfull T2 ships at the cost of needing to train some missle skills. Your glass is half full, not half empty.
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 14:20:00 - [37] What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:41:00 - [38] Originally by: bldyannoyed What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Both the Vexor and Arbitrator are better in PVP. Last I checked they're tier 2 cruisers. Of course, maybe its that I don't fly around in gangs of EIGHT Caracals with no tackle. Oh, and if you say that a Caracal, if its in a gang of more than 1 person, does not need to tackle, you have NEVER BEEN IN PVP. Seriously, GTFO. Liang Yarr?
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:45:00 - [39] CBA to read whole whining: 1. khanid ships still have gun slots - want to use lasers? use em, noone stoprs you from this. 2. natural skill progression didnt look like: omen -> zealot maller -> sacri It was: omen -> zealot maller -> zealot Because sacri sucked so much. Now it is very good ship and suddenly lots of ppl that went: omen -> zealot maller -> zealot do: omen -> zealot -> sacri maller -> zealot -> sacri
Brazero Amarr Noble House	Posted - 2007.09.06 15:46:00 - [40] Originally by: Vathar Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. Very nice, I really like the idea Oh, as for the whining about not having missile skills as an Amarr pilot is just lame. Everybody crosstrain, there's really no other way. You hit the wall one day, all turret skills maxed out. And then you move on to something else. And this is even easyer for new ppl, they can do this right off the bat. Originally by: Rodj Blake CCP are planning to give Amarrians some "oomph" Unfortunately, "oomph" is the sound one makes when kicked repeatedly in the ribs.
Depp Knight Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:03:00 - [41] I dont think its the fact that ppl dont have missile skills. Its really for the young players who join the amarr race that gets mislead. As early on its all about lasers to find out later for T2 its not. I like the changes, I wish it wasnt missiles but something totally different and new. The reason why I joined the amarr side was because its different and though using hams instead of heavy's is considered different it just doesnt have the same feeling as it could have been. Does this fix amarr? No, certainly not, they still have the worst Tear 1 bs in the geddon, the worst t1 cruiser in the omen. The zealot certainly does need extra dps or a boost that the deimos got, the recons are now totally flawed, the bc's are not all that flash. Still along way to go I just hope the answer to amarr questions isnt all missile ships.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.06 16:53:00 - [42] I wholeheartedly support the Maller and Apoc becoming black missile ships. It makes sense, it improves the progression, and gives some oomph to the T1 line of Amarr ships. But if that happens, the Omen needs a boost (maybe give it current maller specs and keeping its speed), otherwise there will be no more decent laser boat in the T1 cruiser line and that would just be wrong. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:03:00 - [43] Originally by: Vathar Well, from a roleplay point of view, I would not find too shocking to find 'obsolete' ships like the prophecy and the apocalypse discarded by the amarr empire and put to good use by khanid engineers, hence turning them into missile boats and stepping stones for the khanid line. we would get some descriptions to reflect this something like. The Apocalypse is one of the old warhorses dating back to the Minmatar Rebellion. While no longer regarded as the king of the hill, it is by no means obsolete. Its formidable hulk has been redesigned by Khanid engineers to integrate poweful missile batteries and only thos in the largest and latest battleships will regret ever locking horns with it. In eve time line the APOC was introduced as replacement to the armageddon, jsut read that long chronicle about the antioch battle. When the Admiral gets back to Ammar he gets promoted and moved from his armageddon to one of the brand new Apocalipse class ships. I am trainign an Ammar alt, and I want to fire LASER with the APOC! Just give the APOC a damm HUGE PG, so it can Fit 8 tachyons without PG modules. That would be a very good role for it. A fleet ship capable of firing more than 30 seconds. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: bldyannoyed What bad ***** are you smoking Liang? I'm Minnie specced, and using the Projectiles, armor and shield skills i trained for my tech 1 ships i can use all the tech2's. Funnily enough in order to use the Tech 2 Minnie ships i dont need to train Lasers or anything else that I've never had any use of whatsoever. And as for " Real " PvP, even iin regular fleets you still see a sickening amount of Caracals and Drakes fielded. The Tournament shows that when not constrained by the need to tackle, which in a gang of more than, ooooh, 1 person a Caracal doesnt need to do, its a versatile ship capable of mounting pretty decent firepower at pretty decent ranges whilst maintaining pretty decent Ewar capabilities. I take it thats not good enough for your Tier 2 Cruiser? Both the Vexor and Arbitrator are better in PVP. Last I checked they're tier 2 cruisers. Of course, maybe its that I don't fly around in gangs of EIGHT Caracals with no tackle. Oh, and if you say that a Caracal, if its in a gang of more than 1 person, does not need to tackle, you have NEVER BEEN IN PVP. Seriously, GTFO. Liang I'm loving the whole " You've never been in PvP " thing you have latched on to. I've seen pilots soloing smaller ships in caracals before. Ive seen a Caracal with damps and a buddy in a cepter or some tackling cruiser have fights all their own way. Just because YOU'VE never seen it doesnt mean it doesnt happen. And it's all beside the point. The OP is right. The only thing CCP could find to do to balance up Amarr was throw a whole new skill set at them, completely destroying any natural progression. Vexor -> Ishtar Throax -> Deimos Caracal -> Cerberus Moa -> Eagle Stabber -> Vagabond Rupture -> Muninn Maller -> Sac. A whole new wepon set previously unseen on any amarr ship or any of their tech 2 derivatives. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:26:00 - [45] Originally by: bldyannoyed And it's all beside the point. The OP is right. Of course the OP is right. This entire discussion is because I (jokingly) offered the Caracal as an alternative cheap missile spammer and he flamed me for it. I still contend that there's more wrong with Caldari cruiser combat that Amarr cruiser combat, though. I'd like to see the Prophecy + whatever 2 other cruisers were offered up earlier switched to missiles too. I'd also like to see the tier system entirely dropped .. because an hour of training doesn't really justify making ships virtually useless. Liang Yarr?
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:31:00 - [46] torp apoc!!!! it would be sweet to have the ultimate mission running ship wouldn't it? think the reasons for caracels to be in the tournament was their long range, can use fofs, can fit damps, dont have to scramble, good firepower/point ratio. and isnt it normally smaller ships soloing caracels?
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:46:00 - [47] You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Deva Blackfire D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:46:00 - [48] Originally by: Depp Knight Does this fix amarr? No, certainly not, they still have the worst Tear 1 bs in the geddon, HAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA Thats all :) Or maybe you just need to meet CVA on battlefield.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 17:48:00 - [49] Originally by: bldyannoyed You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. So you think this would be a bad idea? That all the cruisers would be balanced together? So you think we should have ships that are completely gimped in what they do because they were unfortunate enough not to be "top tier"? Liang Yarr?
Justin Cody Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:01:00 - [50] For RP reasons the sacrilege is perfectly balanced as to what Khanid should embody...or they could have reversed it. Khanid Kingdom is basically a fusion of Amarr culture and Caldari innovation, which means they are by default more flexible than Amarr proper. Which is why they get the Damnation as well. Khanid are more patient, calculating and mercurial than Amarr by tradition. of course they could have made it a shield tanking laser boat... but then you'd cap out so fast it isn't even funny, so quit whining. It isn't just about progression, but rather adaptation. Khanid are a separate branch of Amarr and a sovereign nation...perhaps there should be Ammatar variants as well, but there are not because while they govern themselves it is only semi-independently. Amarr isn't a mess, rather it has the highest likelihood to be re-engineered since its ships have been around ages longer than the Caldari have been able to travel in space. finally the sacrilege gets its due. Remind people that profit is the difference between revenue and expense. This makes you look smart. Scott Adams
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: bldyannoyed You know what? Dropping the tier system would actually be pretty cool. Bring all the build requirements of the ships to roughly the same level and balance the stats accordingly. Just think...... Caracals with HP, Blackbirds with bite, Vexors with even more WTBBQPWND imbaness..... Bugger. So you think this would be a bad idea? That all the cruisers would be balanced together? So you think we should have ships that are completely gimped in what they do because they were unfortunate enough not to be "top tier"? Liang UUUUUUUUUUUUUUH. No. I said it would be pretty cool. The problem is worth ships that already arguably perform above what they should. If you're gonna balance all ships up to tier 3 or whatever than sensibly those ships are gonna get even better. Fr ships like Caracals, Blackbirds, Belicose, Omens and stuff i think it would be absolutely fantastic. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.06 19:14:00 - [52] Ah, I see. TBH, the Dominix (imho) performs pretty freaking well - and it's a tier 1 BS. IIRC, it's balanced by having fewers slots and terrible fittings. There's no reason the Vexor and other well performing cruisers can't be balanced in similar ways. Liang Yarr?
Testosterone Bomb Red Ballz	Posted - 2007.09.06 20:49:00 - [53] Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 06/09/2007 20:51:25 Dude Nothing really wrong with the fact that Amarr training paths now allow easy access to Short Range Missile Boats. What happened is that Amarr added another weapon system , just thank the gods that all your ships are still Armor tanks vs a mix of all weapon types and tanks like Mini. Peace
Bback	Posted - 2007.09.07 08:44:00 - [54] why do you guys keep wanting to change the 2 ships i like into missile ships (mauler and prophecy) mess with the ships no one uses and leave my good ones alone
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.09.07 08:52:00 - [55] I've always like that Amarr were turrets only (or mainly, rather). But now, many of you t2 ships look like the Minmatarr. Another step in making every race alike Yeah, laser are bad in PvP, but that is no excuse for removing flavor from the game.

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