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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Atticus Fynch
346
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.
I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%
Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.
This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
ShipToaster
99
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.
I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%
Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.
This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well.
Stupid idea.
Needs moved to F&I where it can die the death it deserves.
The only contact I want to have with eve university is if I can have them all ****** to death by space robo donkeys.
Griefing CCP - Bounties for E-Uni Ganking: action continues. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=343354#post343354 |
Goose99
709
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Posted - 2012.01.18 15:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
+1 |
Atticus Fynch
349
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Posted - 2012.01.18 16:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:Hauling is a bonafide profession and an essential part of EVE. If you as the client want to petition the populace of EVE by way of public contracts to haul your goods then you must pay a fixed % of your required collateral as reward.
I suggest that all PUBLIC courier contracts have an automatic 7.5% fixed reward rate. If you want to add more to your contract...fine, but you can not go below 7.5%
Private contracts can continue to be whatever they want.
This will encourage more Hauling Corps to be created as well. Stupid idea. Needs moved to F&I where it can die the death it deserves.
It IS in F&I, numb-nuts. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
4
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Posted - 2012.01.18 16:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
+1 |
corvus acanum
Dead Space Alpha Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
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Posted - 2012.01.18 17:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't haul but I agree with you on this. If someone is going to ask a billion or more isk in collateral to move something and then only offer ten million isk that is stupid. In the real world that would never happen. That kind of mentality is why courier contracts hardly seem to work at all they are just not worth the money. I would like to see something like this happen as well. |
Ayieka
13
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
I really would like to see my crane put to better use. +1 |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
39
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
If someone dont wanna pay the price you want, dont haul it! I agree hauling isnt worthwhile profession because of ppl who put miserable rewards in the contracts, but I dont think forcing a particular fixed price is the correct solution.
Corps such as Red Frog dont need fixed prices to work. |
Atticus Fynch
350
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:If someone dont wanna pay the price you want, dont haul it! I agree hauling isnt worthwhile profession because of ppl who put miserable rewards in the contracts, but I dont think forcing a particular fixed price is the correct solution.
Corps such as Red Frog dont need fixed prices to work.
You said it yourself, hauling in its present state is not a worthwhile profession. My suggestion will make it one without freelance cargo pilots having to settle for crumbs for their work at ridiculous collateral rates.
It will also cut down on scams aimed at collecting colateral with no intentions (on the part of the contract maker) of having a succesful delivery. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Monty Kvaran
Allied Caprican Heavy Industries
11
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:23:00 -
[10] - Quote
Supply, meet demand....
The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox. |
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Atticus Fynch
351
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
Monty Kvaran wrote:Supply, meet demand....
The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.
Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Monty Kvaran
Allied Caprican Heavy Industries
11
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Posted - 2012.01.18 19:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Monty Kvaran wrote:Supply, meet demand....
The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox. Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me.
As a small time courier pilot, I find the problem with contracts is the horrible isk/jump. As a courier pilot, you can greatly influence the risk of loosing the collateral, if there is minimal risk, then the size of the collateral is really immaterial. I'll take your low M^3 cargo to/from lowsec for 1-3% of collateral if the price/jump is worth my time. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
92
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Monty Kvaran wrote:Supply, meet demand....
The correct price for a courier contract is the minimum price necessary to get a courier to promptly service your contract. Good contracts are snatched up, bad contracts remain, resulting in the appearance that no one is paying a reasonable rate on the contracts. Eve is a sandbox, don't try to have CCP exempt your preferred job from the sandbox.
Competition for haul contracts = PvP without (traditional) weapons.
Having a jumpclone and a freighter in each trade hub is possibly your best weapon in this fight. Please support: export of settings in editable format
Your stuff goes here. |
Ai Shun
140
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Not so. I am always scanning public shipping contracts and for the most part they are sh-t. On rare occasion you will find a gem that pays well. I am asking CCP for balance. The same way they added tax to NPC corps. The balance is a percentage of the required collateral. Sounds fair to me.
No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.
As a side thought, PUSH Industries. My Trader has cause to use them from time to time and they charge per jump, depending on cargo volume, low-sec, etc.
Their service is impeccable. The contract was accepted within 5 minutes. I received an EVEMail when it was first handled with an estimated delivery time. And another EVEMail when they delivered it, about 3 minutes ahead of schedule and all done within about half an hour of me creating the contract.
Against that type of service, a lone hauler can do very, very little to compete. I'm considering using PUSH instead of Ai to haul stuff now.
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Atticus Fynch
351
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:
No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.
True, however the same security can be obtained by having the cargo you want shipped in a secure container. I've never tried it, but I believe it's doable, and if not then having unbreakable crates used for hauling should become a standard in EVE hauling. That would eliminate the possibility of theft.
On the flip side of the coin, there are those that use shipping contracts to scam. One of my earliest expereinces was of accepting a contract at 200mil collateral with a 100mil payoff to be delivered into null. I made it to the destination but found the station would not allow me to dock. That was before the shipping contracts feature was revamped to prevent this from happening.
You would think I would have the contents of the cargo to cover my loss....NO!! The cargo turned out to be a small empty container.
Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null.
Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
317
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 21:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
This won't work as you intend it to. More people will put more of the hauling loads on their alts and/or friend's alts and/or dedicated hauling corps so they can avoid paying the "fixed" tax... pretty much the same way people make "shell corps" to avoid the NPC tax. Savvy people (i.e. the people with the ISK) will ALWAYS find ways around this to avoid paying the tax at all costs. Newbies (i.e. people with limited ISK) will have a harder time. "Just because I seem like an idiot, doesn't mean I am one." ~Unknown |
Lucjan
R-E-D
10
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
I don't think it needs to be a fixed rate. I just this you should be able to ignore the garbage ones with search variables.
Also let us ignore the non accessible station ones. You losers don't want to open you port to us, haul your own crap. |
Atticus Fynch
353
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Posted - 2012.01.18 22:48:00 -
[18] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:This won't work as you intend it to. More people will put more of the hauling loads on their alts and/or friend's alts and/or dedicated hauling corps so they can avoid paying the "fixed" tax... pretty much the same way people make "shell corps" to avoid the NPC tax. Savvy people (i.e. the people with the ISK) will ALWAYS find ways around this to avoid paying the tax at all costs. Newbies (i.e. people with limited ISK) will have a harder time.
I disagree becuase people are iinherently lazy and the deeper their pockets, the more likely they are to spend for a service. If they could do all this hauling with alts, they would already. and newbs do their own hauling anyway.
This does give hauling corps more teeth though, and that is a good thing becuase it actually makes "hauling" an eve profession instead of a "hobby" of sorts they way it is treated now.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
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ISD Eshtir
Community Communications Liaisons
37
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Posted - 2012.01.19 07:41:00 -
[19] - Quote
Guys, please only post if you have something constructive to say at least. I am sure it would be nice for the OP to know why you + 1 his idea. ISD Eshtir Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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ShipToaster
104
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Posted - 2012.01.19 08:26:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.
Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment. The only contact I want to have with eve university is if I can have them all ****** to death by space robo donkeys.
Griefing CCP - Bounties for E-Uni Ganking: action continues. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=343354#post343354 |
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Atticus Fynch
354
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Posted - 2012.01.19 10:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.
Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment.
Lets break this down:
Collateral is to cover the loss/theft of the shipment.
Reward is payment for the shipment.
You are saying that reward is based on the number of jumps/distance the cargo pilot has to cover. OK, but consider this...
IRL, wouldnt you pay more to have a ton of gold moved one mile/km vs a ton of cotton balls moved the same distance? Yes you would. Why? Because of the value of the cargo. RL insurance comes into play. Weight of cargo also comes into play...but we dont have these options in EVE becuase EVE is not RL.
So the only option is to reward based on collateral. In other words if you feel your cargo is worth 1 billion isk, then as a cargo pilot I expect payment proportional to the value of the item you are entrusting me with regardless of haul distance.
As a customer you are concerned with the shipment being done. As a cargo pilot, I am concerned with the distance. Customers should not be concerned with distance and if you are, then perhaps you should use the cheapest method avaialble...ship it yourself.
Based on the hauling/distance model you presented let me ask, are you willing to pay per jump if all you are shipping is a skillbook worth just 1mill isk over 30 jumps? No you wouldnt. To save money you would then claim the job is based on cargo value and not haul distance.
It's still the same distance to the cargo pilot regardless of cargo even though you may feel the job should be much less based on the value of your cargo in that scenario. It is still the same amount of work even if your cargo is 100mill isk in value over 30 jumps.
You cant have it both ways by saying reward is based on jump distance for short hauls of expensive cargo, then turn around and say it's based on cargo value when it is a long haul with cheap cargo. These are the two beliefs when it comes to cargo contracts.
The pilot loses out in both scenarios.
A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
ShipToaster
105
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Posted - 2012.01.19 12:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.
You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees.
The next step would probably be to advertise for hauling corps on the forums and probably pay less than I do now. The only contact I want to have with eve university is if I can have them all ****** to death by space robo donkeys.
Griefing CCP - Bounties for E-Uni Ganking: action continues. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=343354#post343354 |
Manfred Macx
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 12:26:00 -
[23] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:ShipToaster wrote:Ai Shun sums up what the point against you is.
Collateral is only to stop you stealing my stuff or pretending you lost it. The distance it needs to be moved is the determining factor for the payment. Lets break this down: Collateral is to cover the loss/theft of the shipment. Reward is payment for the shipment. You are saying that reward is based on the number of jumps/distance the cargo pilot has to cover. OK, but consider this... IRL, wouldnt you pay more to have a ton of gold moved one mile/km vs a ton of cotton balls moved the same distance? Yes you would. Why? Because of the value of the cargo. RL insurance comes into play. Weight of cargo also comes into play...but we dont have these options in EVE becuase EVE is not RL.
This comparison does not work. You are not taking into account that, in EVE, the courier has to pay this huge amount of collateral, which probably is close or the same as the value of the shipment. Then I, the client, does not need any insurance. I don't care how much risk you take when hauling my stuff, since I'm already covered for theft, pirates or what have you.
In EVE it makes sense to reward the hauler based on the time it takes to haul and the size of the shipment. |
Atticus Fynch
354
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 18:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
Manfred Macx wrote: This comparison does not work. You are not taking into account that, in EVE, the courier has to pay this huge amount of collateral, which probably is close or the same as the value of the shipment. Then I, the client, does not need any insurance. I don't care how much risk you take when hauling my stuff, since I'm already covered for theft, pirates or what have you.
In EVE it makes sense to reward the hauler based on the time it takes to haul and the size of the shipment.
Keep in mind that the shipper/shipping company, IRL would have his own insurance to cover any unforseen losses. We dont have that in EVE. Only the client is covered by way of collateral. This idea is to balance things out for the cargo pilot as well, not just the client. As it stands now, the shipper is at a disadvantage while the client is covered 100%. The present state of hauling contratcs also leaves the shipper open for scams.
ShipToaster wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR. You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees. The next step would probably be to advertise for hauling corps on the forums and probably pay less than I do now.
And how is that a bad thing? I would love to see competition and more hauling corps come into existence fighting for your hauling needs. More hauling corps will be formed and as I said before, people wil still use public hauling services.
I only know of Red Frog and PUSH. In all of EVE there should be dozens of hauling corps fighting for your business. My idea will make it so. Moreso, it may actually carve out hauling territories in New Eden and even prompt territory wars by hauling corps. Fun times dude, and just becuase hauling has now become competetive and profitable.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Ai Shun
144
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Posted - 2012.01.19 20:53:00 -
[25] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null.
Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.
And they should continue to exist. In EVE, we live and learn or we die. You have learned from your experience, right? And you are a better pilot for it.
That is not an endorsement for scamming, but I want to keep one MMO open where you actually need to learn something other than point and click; where there are real challenges and where I can grow as a player. Like the old C-64 platformers or the games of that generation where failure was punished, harshly.
New players will learn; or they will lose a lot of ISK. But these fixed rate contracts will simply kill of another sector of the game while dumbing the game down.
Atticus Fynch wrote:This does give hauling corps more teeth though, and that is a good thing becuase it actually makes "hauling" an eve profession instead of a "hobby" of sorts they way it is treated now.
Are you in a hauling corp at the moment? Have you worked with one?
It is not a hobby. The level of professionalism exhibit by these corporations is incredible. I'll give you a few examples from a recent transaction I had with PUSH Industries. (Through my Trader)
This was the first, within 5 minutes of creating the Contract.
Quote:Push Industries has started picking up your stuff and created an estimate time for delivery:
>> Perimeter >> Niyabainen (67247 m-¦) (Courier)
ETA: 06:20
You will be notified upon delivery of your stuff with a delivery Evemail. You may also join ingame channel PUSHX for updated route information.
Don't move it, PUSH it.
Six minutes later the contract was completed, 1 minute (Checking mail timestamps now) before the ETA.
Quote:Thanks for choosing Push Industries for moving your stuff. If you need anything in the future, feel free to call upon us. Send us an evemail through the contacts in our corporation info, or send us a message in our ingame channel PUSHX. Also please be sure to post your feedback on how we did in our thread which can be found here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=455019And remember, don't move it, PUSH it.
That was day before yesterday. Since then I've happily paid them their per gate fee, setting a collateral at twice the value of the goods. They show true professionalism and are a real hauling corporation; not just a "hobby" corporation.
So yeah, I think it is already a very, very viable profession. Once my low-sec Transport skills are up to scratch and I've practiced a bit I'm planning on applying to them to haul for them. |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
625
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 04:34:00 -
[26] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote: A fixed percentage based on collateral pays the cargo pilot for the work and it is FAIR.
Yeah, no. You're completely confused about how things work in the real world (and EVE).
The reason you pay more in the real world to ship a container of gold vs cotton balls would be:
a) Fuel costs due to the larger mass involved, possibly requiring special equipment if you exceed the standard maximum weights for shipping containers. (Or you split your load up across multiple containers / trailers.) EVE has no concept of shipping mass, nor fuel costs for normal jump gates. Even jump freighters only care about distance traveled, not mass hauled.
b) Insurance. If you want to ship 1B dollars of gold across the country, and have it insured against theft / loss, then you're going to pay some percentage of the value in shipping insurance. Or require that the shipper post a bond equal to the value of the shipment. In EVE, we call this "collateral" which is there to prevent the shipper from running off with your stuff.
Once you get past those 2 variables, the only other factor which determines shipment costs are:
c) Load size. How many trips it will take you to move the load from A to B. In the case of less dense items, this is limited by the volume of the container. For denser items in the real world, you're limited by the carrying capacity of the container / trailer / tractor. We have this concept in EVE and it's called "cargo space".
d) Distance. How long will it take for the driver to get from A to B and will you have to pay for deadhead time on the way back. In the real world, we have distances (per-mile rate) or just pay by the hour (hourly rate). In EVE, this is most easily calculated as # of jumps, because the time spent between gates isn't all that long (most of the time is spent getting the freighter aligned). It's also really hard to figure out exactly how many jumps + lightyears between gates + alignment time - so we just approximate as "# of jumps".
Now, you could *try* to charge your customers a 7.5% premium based on the overall collateral to move something, but most folks are going to tell you go pound sand. It's not worth 75M ISK to move 1B of goods unless I'm in a tearing hurry.
This does not need to be added to the game. The courier contract system is fine "as-is" and the fact that there are at least (2) full-time hauling companies (PUSH and Red Frog Freight) shows that it's working. Not to mention the dozens of smaller haulers who survive on networking with customers and have private clientele. |
Atticus Fynch
360
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 04:38:00 -
[27] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
This does not need to be added to the game. The courier contract system is fine "as-is" and the fact that there are at least (2) full-time hauling companies (PUSH and Red Frog Freight) shows that it's working. Not to mention the dozens of smaller haulers who survive on networking with customers and have private clientele.
As I've said before, private contratcs can continue to be whatever they want. The fixed percentage is for public contracts. The fact that there are only two main hauling corps in EVE shows it's not working. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
ShipToaster
106
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Posted - 2012.01.20 06:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
I dont get what your problem here is.
I state that we will see an elimination of public contracts using your massive jump in costs idea but you think this is ok because we will have private contracts that will do precisely what public contracts do now, with the one problem that the majority of small and independent haulers will have nothing to haul as no one will use public contracts any more.
Final word from me is current system is one of the few things in EVE that is working absolutely fine and has no need to change. The only contact I want to have with eve university is if I can have them all ****** to death by space robo donkeys.
Griefing CCP - Bounties for E-Uni Ganking: action continues. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=343354#post343354 |
Atticus Fynch
361
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Posted - 2012.01.20 06:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:I dont get what your problem here is.
No problem. I just disagree with your conclusion on the matter for reasons already stated. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Bearilian
Man Eating Bears
77
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Posted - 2012.01.20 10:01:00 -
[30] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
b) Insurance. If you want to ship 1B dollars of gold across the country, and have it insured against theft / loss, then you're going to pay some percentage of the value in shipping insurance. Or require that the shipper post a bond equal to the value of the shipment. In EVE, we call this "collateral" which is there to prevent the shipper from running off with your stuff.
i gota comment. I have a real hard time following the argument against this idea. would someone really post a bond of over 1 Billion in currency, without getting paid a considerable amount in exchange??? the percentage of people who can earn over 1b in eve outways that potential in RL.. there is only what, 1% or less of the human population that has that kind of money?
I do see how having a fixed rate may not work in some situations. possibly have the percentage be affected by certian attributes of the contract. example: distances, does the shortest distance pass through low or null sec.
When it comes down to it, there is not really arguable reasons against such a change. i understand the need to keep things a sandbox. but it feels like only the scammers are the ones who truly want this left alone. yeah, you can take advantage of noobs, and try to move your stuff cheaply, but thats too easy.... every argument i ever had about this game, it seemed, was about making the game more dynamic and challenging to play. theres gota be hundreds of people who posts scam contracts with the off chance someone may "accidentally" accept it. its just weak in my opinion is all.
lastly, im going to have to agree with the OP one more time. i do not think such a change would "eliminate" currier contracts. and if people chose to use private contracts and find "clientel" all the better. |
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Zaxix
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
23
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Posted - 2012.01.20 17:11:00 -
[31] - Quote
Not supported.
If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog. There is no need to institute this solution when all you have to do is ignore low paying contracts. The underlying logic of your proposition is essentially that people should be forced to pay a certain amount because the collateral is so large. The collateral issue is only one of liquidity. You aren't losing the money; you're temporarily losing access to it. The cost of hauling is about the time; it's not about the amount of the collateral. If there is a contract for 50 jumps (longest possible station to station pure hisec route) for an item with collateral of 100k, 7500 is a laughable reward. And if a contract is for Jita 4-4 to Jita 4-5 with a collateral of 2 billion, a reward of 150 million is absurdly expensive.
If what you want is better pay for contracts overall, do what I and many others have, don't EVER take crap contracts. So, haulers of eve unite... and stop taking crappy contracts. Red Frog--Hisec Courier Black Frog--Losec/Nosec Courier
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Fango Mango
University of Caille Gallente Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 18:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
Quote:The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair.
If you feel that the reward is not enough, then don't accept the contract. Someone else will . . .
As I have posted before, I use public contracts to move all of my industrial materials (usually to/from a major trade hub if not between them). I run maybe 4-10 shipments per week, EVERY OFFER I EVER MADE HAS BEEN ACCEPTED
My standard rates are 100-200K / Jump (depending upon volume) for less than about 1 billion.
For collateral above 1 billion, I pay about 0.15%-0.45% of the collateral (depending upon the volume).
From my results, it looks like I am overpaying, but I like having my goods delivered and like keeping my contract slots available.
-FM
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Atticus Fynch
362
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 19:09:00 -
[33] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Not supported.
If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog].
Red Frog has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Do you realize that with a fixed public percentage requirement, private corps now have a measuring stick to use to offer cheaper services. 7%, 6%, 5%...so on.
Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the current system as it stand, that will never happen.
Fango Mango wrote:Quote:The only people resisting this idea are those that exploit the current system and expect a cargo pilot to take 1 -5 mill in reward for putting up 1 billion in collateral. Yeah..that's real fair. If you feel that the reward is not enough, then don't accept the contract. Someone else will . . .
Yes someone else will accept becuase there is a sucker born every minute (newbs) and EVE is full of predators and nothing will ever change nor should anything ever change becuase -I am doing just fine with the way things are and if you are not then HTFU and dont expect CCP to hold your hand blah blah blah...-
I have that reply memorized already.
My suggestion makes for a better game by balancing risk/reward in the hauling field. Again (for the millionth time), private contracts can continue to be what they want...so what is the issue? Red Frog will continue have their clients and you can have yours. What more you may even have more customers with this implementation if you can beat %7.5 and more hauling corps will open because they now have a target (%7.5) to beat. This suggestion provides for new/inexpereinced players as well as the freelance hauler not interested in joing a corp. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
631
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 19:18:00 -
[34] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote: Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the system as it stand, that will never happen.
RF does not have a monopoly - otherwise how do you explain PUSH? At best, they have a duopoly.
Why are they so successful and why do they get so much business?
- Good word of mouth advertising and reputation. - A standard fee schedule, which means I can predict my shipping expenses - Professional level of service (no drama, both have good completion times, etc)
There is no "establsihed" monopoly in shipping, only the lack of effort for someone else to attempt to out-compete RF and PUSH.
In short, there's no problem here with the courier market - you just need to be smart about which contracts you accept, pay close attention to routing / over-inflated collaterals and other obvious traps. |
Atticus Fynch
362
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 19:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Scrapyard Bob wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote: Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the system as it stand, that will never happen.
RF does not have a monopoly - otherwise how do you explain PUSH? At best, they have a duopoly. Why are they so successful and why do they get so much business? - Good word of mouth advertising and reputation. - A standard fee schedule, which means I can predict my shipping expenses - Professional level of service (no drama, both have good completion times, etc) There is no "establsihed" monopoly in shipping, only the lack of effort for someone else to attempt to out-compete RF and PUSH. In short, there's no problem here with the courier market - you just need to be smart about which contracts you accept, pay close attention to routing / over-inflated collaterals and other obvious traps.
Oh and a duopoly is good?
One side here will always say there is no problem with the current system....the winning side. Everyone else can eat cake, right?
Apparently those opposed feel they have something to lose otherwise they wouldnt be so vocal in their protests. So just come out and say what it is that you are afraid of losing.
-Your win/win situation of exorbitant collateral followed by a pathetic reward? -Or is it the security of knowing your over-inflated collateral will make a nice cushion for you in case the pilot is ganked? -Or perhaps every shipping contract you make is like a lottery where you hope (or know by planning) eventually he will be ganked giving you a nice payoff?
Those are not fair practices and places the freelance hauling pilot at a greater loss than there needs to be regardless of how smart he needs to be in his choices. This will most definitely cut down on the number of garbage/scam hauling contracts out there as well. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Zaxix
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 21:37:00 -
[36] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Red Frog has been mentioned here ad nauseum. Do you realize that with a fixed public percentage requirement, private corps now have a measuring stick to use to offer cheaper services. 7%, 6%, 5%...so on.
Red Frog does not own EVE and if so then there is a problem becuase they have now establsihed a monopoly in a game that shouldnt have them. I'd rather see 10, 20, 30 "Red Frog "corps fighting for your attention. With the current system as it stand, that will never happen. Red Frog doesn't have a monopoly. Not even close. There are currently at least 4 courier companies in operation and a LOT more hauling pilots engaged in private, long term deals with particular industrialists. In the same breath that you advocate for higher wages for hauler pilots, you're asserting that people could use the 7.5% as a measure to pay LESS, not MORE. You've made the case to push business to private corps, whose management you're advocating then engage in price wars, with the end result that the hauler gets the same crappy pay they would have gotten in the first place.
Also, why exactly did you insert the statement "Red Frog does not own eve"? Talk to anyone who knows. Not only are we totally neutral, we have a strict no combat policy, and we actively encourage competition. There's plenty of hauling for everyone. We've stated that publicly many times. Red Frog is mentioned so much because we've been around so long. It's odd that someone would try to lay the state of the public contract market at our feet, when the only reason such crappy contracts are put up is that haulers keep taking them.
But all that aside, your response doesn't address my specific examples of the 50 jump pittance of a fee and the same system reward jackpot. Why would anyone pay 150 million to move 2 bill worth of stuff from one station to another? That's more than Black Frog charges for delivering to the most distant NPC nosec in EVE.
This all kind of pointless though; CCP is never going to institute anything like set pricing. Red Frog--Hisec Courier Black Frog--Losec/Nosec Courier
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Atticus Fynch
362
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 21:49:00 -
[37] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:
This all kind of pointless though; CCP is never going to institute anything like set pricing.
We shall see.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 23:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
you still havn't answered his question.
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Ai Shun
147
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 01:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:[You see it as fair but I see it as no one using public hauler services. It is that simple. I would switch to private contracts with Red Frog as they are exempt from your massive jump in fees.
Same here. A fixed charge sounds; I don't know. It smacks of attempts to create an egalitarian society. I don't like that conceptually, just as I don't like price fixing or any attempt to control a free market.
Atticus Fynch wrote:Oh and just a duopoly is good?
Sounds to me as if that is an opportunity.
You haul, right? I haul; although I am not very good at it yet. I need more capital for a Freighter and I need to complete my lowsec training so I can fly my Crane. (Good thread here, if you are interested)
So how about this. How about both of us join one of the hauling corps to go haul for them? Otherwise, would you be keen to start a hauling corp, advertise it and see what we can do together; see if we can get more pilots to fly with us and increase the competition?
What do you reckon? |
Ai Shun
147
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 01:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Based on the hauling/distance model you presented let me ask, are you willing to pay per jump if all you are shipping is a skillbook worth just 1mill isk over 30 jumps? No you wouldnt. To save money you would then claim the job is based on cargo value and not haul distance.
I can't see why anyone would ask a cargo hauler to carry a skill book for 30 jumps when it would fit in a shuttle, align quickly and fly at rocket speed.
But let's look at it. Would you haul something like a skillbook for 30 jumps for 400K ISK?
It would be a ludicrous job for a hauler.
Atticus Fynch wrote: t's still the same distance to the cargo pilot regardless of cargo even though you may feel the job should be much less based on the value of your cargo in that scenario. It is still the same amount of work even if your cargo is 100mill isk in value over 30 jumps.
And thus we get paid per jump. The collateral is our risk, in securing the cargo. The distance (jumps) determines how much we get paid. And the collateral is the senders' insurance that we won't steal their cargo.
It seems fair to me; we're being paid for the work we do. It is the cargo pilot's choice to carry the risk or not.
|
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Alexander Hammond
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 07:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
Haha, this guy.
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Mary Mercer
King Wholesaling
48
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 07:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
-1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1 -1
OH MY WORD You guys sound like TRUCK DRIVERS!
http://saynotocheapfreight.wordpress.com/
Oh my freaking word that is so damned funny!
You want higher freight prices, STOP HAULING CHEAP FREIGHT! :) Problem fixed. |
Mary Mercer
King Wholesaling
48
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 07:22:00 -
[43] - Quote
corvus acanum wrote:I don't haul but I agree with you on this. If someone is going to ask a billion or more isk in collateral to move something and then only offer ten million isk that is stupid. In the real world that would never happen. That kind of mentality is why courier contracts hardly seem to work at all they are just not worth the money. I would like to see something like this happen as well.
Dumb. Just dumb.
Full load of plasma tv's worth about 3 million bucks pays like 2.50 a mile on a good day. Won't happen in the real world my arse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 |
Mary Mercer
King Wholesaling
48
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 07:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Ai Shun wrote:
No, the collateral is the insurance the originator of the contract has that you won't steal his stuff. That is immaterial to the money you should be paid to haul it. That actually comes from the number of jumps, the route you have to take, etc.
True, however the same security can be obtained by having the cargo you want shipped in a secure container. I've never tried it, but I believe it's doable, and if not then having unbreakable crates used for hauling should become a standard in EVE hauling. That would eliminate the possibility of theft. On the flip side of the coin, there are those that use shipping contracts to scam. One of my earliest expereinces was of accepting a contract at 200mil collateral with a 100mil payoff to be delivered into null. I made it to the destination but found the station would not allow me to dock. That was before the shipping contracts feature was revamped to prevent this from happening. You would think I would have the contents of the cargo to cover my loss....NO!! The cargo turned out to be a small empty container. Shipping scams still exist in various forms. Some high collateral contracts are designed with the intent that the cargo never make it to its destination...especially in low/null. Since there is always the possibility that a shipping contract will be delivered, having a fixed reward rate will make the scams a little less profitable for the scammer and hopefully reduce them in the public market.
You know, normally I hate pirate and scammers but in this instance.... BAHAHAHAHAHA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0 |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
631
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 13:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mary Mercer wrote:OH MY WORD You guys sound like TRUCK DRIVERS!
/me worked for UPS for close to a decade
And yes, it pretty much boils down to "stop hauling stuff for cheap". Don't accept contracts which don't offer the reward that you want. |
Alexander Hammond
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 01:54:00 -
[46] - Quote
Most of Atticus' ideas boil down to "I can't figure out how to play this game correctly on my own, CCP should change things to fit my (inept) playstyle!" |
|
CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
1300
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 11:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
Offtopic posts removed.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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LeHarfang
Intersteller Masons Wonder Kids
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 09:16:00 -
[48] - Quote
The real problem we have in eve is that haulers have no way of offering their services, in contracts, and have them directly affect the prices the costumer has to pay.
I mean, of course when starting, you have to take what there is available, but even there, moving around with a cargo worth 400m (or at least thats what the collateral said, the guy could be lying) for a mere 1 or 2 million or less is really not worth it.
Again, if those were only some contracts here and there, no problem there. the problem is that every contracts are like that.
I guess being in corps that specialize in courrier and has contacts and good standings with other corps do get better prices for a better collateral thats more worth what's being hauled.
However, it does make it hard for starting in the business. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
335
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 09:26:00 -
[49] - Quote
One of the basic principles of EVE is an open market. Courier contracts are priced as they are because there are people willing to haul at those rates. If it's too low for you, that's fine - because I can just find another hauler who will do it at that price.
What you're proposing is similar to a miner saying "selling Tritanium at 2.5 ISK each is too low, there should be a fixed minimum sell price of 5 ISK."
Now if you want to do something constructive, do as your thread title says, talk to the "cargo pilots", unite them, and get everyone to refuse any contract priced too low. Or even accept it and break it, to further inconvenience those issuing them. If there was a significant drop in people hauling for the current rates, we would have to increase the payouts or haul things ourselves. |
LeHarfang
Intersteller Masons Wonder Kids
24
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 09:55:00 -
[50] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:One of the basic principles of EVE is an open market. Courier contracts are priced as they are because there are people willing to haul at those rates. If it's too low for you, that's fine - because I can just find another hauler who will do it at that price.
What you're proposing is similar to a miner saying "selling Tritanium at 2.5 ISK each is too low, there should be a fixed minimum sell price of 5 ISK."
Now if you want to do something constructive, do as your thread title says, talk to the "cargo pilots", unite them, and get everyone to refuse any contract priced too low. Or even accept it and break it, to further inconvenience those issuing them. If there was a significant drop in people hauling for the current rates, we would have to increase the payouts or haul things ourselves.
Of course i'm not gonna waste my time for pennies while the guy is asking for an impossible. And, yeah, having an open market is what makes Eve a good game, in the eyes of most (if not all) people who plays it.
So basically, this thread does'nt belong in the features & ideas discussion section. It's a message to players, not the dev. If cargo haulers are tired of paying ****** prices, they can do like that guy said and i did, dont haul.
Now that i think about it, one problem with this is that it could pretty much kill the shipping business in eve since it's so easy to haul your own stuff for free if there is no haulers to haul your stuff. No need for supply if there is no demands. |
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Atticus Fynch
402
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 13:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
LeHarfang wrote: Now that i think about it, one problem with this is that it could pretty much kill the shipping business in eve since it's so easy to haul your own stuff for free if there is no haulers to haul your stuff. No need for supply if there is no demands.
Investing time to train up for haulers and freighters is not something people with pew-pew agendas want to do. That is why there will always be a need for haulers. As of this post, the public hauling business is dying. Mainly because there is a monopoly taking place by a couple of shipping corps.
So not only are public contracts getting fewer and fewer but what remains are the dregs of contracts asking the most collateral for the fewest pay over 20-30+ jumps.
A change is sorely needed.
G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Roast Em
Rep-X Bringers of Death.
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
+1
|
Porkita
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:36:00 -
[53] - Quote
I don't know why you want these things changed. They work as intented. Couriers have a healthy economy like nothing else in the game, let me explain why:
Currently the reward determines which public contracts will be picked up fast and which will have to wait longer. There exist very profittable public couriers, you just don't happen to see them often when you don't keep following them, because they are picked very fast. Those issuers paying a good reward are rewarded by an early delivery. Those not willing to pay, get their stuff very slowly or not at all delivered.
Players decide on their own, if they are willing to have something like a 1000 ISK/jump or a 1M ISK/jump rate, by taking or avoiding specific contracts. I don't see why there is the need to babysit everyone by defining what should be the status quo on couriers. What works for you, might not work for others.
A fixed rate is going to kill competition and it is going to kill the diversity of reasons that couriers are used. It is not going to make couriers to be more profitable, it is instead going to lower the amount of public couriers a lot, as it just won't be profitable anymore at all in many cases.
A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.
There is competition in the hauling business. Lack of more competition is only, because it takes a huge planning to create a hauling corp and keep it running with available pilots and competitive services. Many players are just not willing to do all that planning and keeping it up, no fixed rate will change that.
Eve is a Sandbox. Couriers are 100% sandbox. Players decide if something works or not. If they pick couriers with a 1000ISK up, those putting those rewards will keep doing it. Players have the power to change this on their own by not picking up couriers which rewards they consider ridiculous, even then not when they are going to do that route anyway.
In the time I have been working for Push Industries I have seen the necessity for a variety of rewards to exist, all being dictated by circumstances and individual situations. We have couriers ranging from 100K to 100M+ ISK. A fixed rate is just not going to allow this diversity to exist, that represents the needs and possibilities for everyone, from the new player to the veterans, from the occassional issuer to manufacturers and traders.
In Push the collateral is only in a limited way combined to the reward. We have a multiplier for high-value freight. This works actually great like that. Otherwise this is not combined in any way to the reward per jump or other extra services which we offer, like the rush service. Like someone else said, not the collateral dictates the price in the first place. To have it do, would be just wrong. To have a percentage do it, would make things even more wrong.
if a change would happen to couriers, the next thing to be asked for would be to set a fixed rate for manufacturers and their income (say set minimum prices for items on market)... there is a lot of stuff that is unprofitable to produce on the market (like there is a lot of couriers that are unprofittable to haul). The next thing after that would be... well you see my point?
What I like most in EVE compared to other MMOs is, that it does not tell you what something has to be. The players, the economy and other factors decide what it should be. We can think, experience and decide, we don't need babysitting rules, because some are not willing to make decisions on their own.
The current courier system absolutely represents EVE's "reward vs risk" principle too. Lowsec or Nullsec transports are generally done for a much higher rate, in public as also private couriers. A fixed rate again would not allow for this diversity as it would dictate, they should be the same as highsec couriers. There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it! |
Atticus Fynch
403
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:40:00 -
[54] - Quote
Porkita wrote: A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.
A fixed rate is a minimum requirment. if you feel a shipment should pay more, then you can add more. You just cant go below the minimum rate. Again, private contratcs can continue to be whatever you want. G’ąG’ąG’ąCargo Pilots Unite!!!G’ąG’ąG’ą https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=668132&#post668132 |
Porkita
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:Porkita wrote: A fixed rate is going to make more rewarding couriers probably less rewarding, especially on long routes, because it dictates what something should be.
A fixed rate is a minimum requirment. if you feel a shipment should pay more, then you can add more. You just cant go below the minimum rate. Again, private contratcs can continue to be whatever you want.
No matter if private contracts can be whatever they want to... they will not be, because public couriers are a competition to private contracts. Any fixed or minimum rates will have an effect on the private hauling business too.
We have customers, that use both. Private contracts with us and public contracts at the same time. Putting anything "should be like" is going to limit people's free decisions. I don't see the reason to do so.
You want higher rewards for taking public couriers? If so, keep watching the couriers to be able to pick up those really rewarding instead of the leftovers. Or start your own hauling corporation. Don't try though to be applied what YOU think will be the right thing to the sandbox, which won't be for others . There is no need to move stuff, because now you can push it! |
Ai Shun
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 18:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Atticus Fynch wrote:A change is sorely needed.
So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents?
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Zaxix
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
25
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 21:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:A change is sorely needed. So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents? It already exists; that's what Red Frog is. Red Frog itself makes no money from its pilots. It's just a brand, a queue, and a bunch of independent haulers doing their own thing. We don't have requirements for X number of deliveries or Y number of days active or any of that. The directors are essentially long term volunteers to keep things going. Nobody's a boss. Red Frog--Hisec Courier Black Frog--Losec/Nosec Courier
|
SketS47
Alpha Intellectual Military Solutions
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 21:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
+1 this will 'revive' a dead profession! One I enjoyed much on my previous char
While ur at it, also think of a few more 'hauler skills' ? |
Ai Shun
180
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 21:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Ai Shun wrote:Atticus Fynch wrote:A change is sorely needed. So what about that idea of starting a hauling corp for the independents? It already exists; that's what Red Frog is. Red Frog itself makes no money from its pilots. It's just a brand, a queue, and a bunch of independent haulers doing their own thing. We don't have requirements for X number of deliveries or Y number of days active or any of that. The directors are essentially long term volunteers to keep things going. Nobody's a boss.
Understood, but Atticus wanted to introduce more competition and is looking for a better pay-off. I'm offering him a suggestion already available within EVE Online. Now I'm just waiting for a response. Although, I should probably assume the silence means he's not interested.
I am looking for a hauling corp at the moment. I'm about 19 days away from being able to fully fly a Crane (With the appropriate skills trained to V) and it's about time I stopped hauling public contracts.
How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.28 16:04:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ai Shun wrote:
How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?
there's a pool of contract, you choose which contract you want to do, deliver it, and get the reward.
it's pretty straight forward, but you need a freighter with 860k cargo to work for us. No industrial allowed for RF Contracts.
Push works differently, you need to ATK the oldest contract (afaik), and there is micro-push with smaller load/collateral that you can do in an indy. you still get 100% of the reward with them, too.
check out channel "profit" to see our current recruitment status!
|
|
Miranda Ka
Push Industries Push Interstellar Network
0
|
Posted - 2012.02.29 11:47:00 -
[61] - Quote
Red Frog Rufen wrote:Ai Shun wrote:
How does Red Frog divvy up the contracts allocated to them? First in first served?
there's a pool of contract, you choose which contract you want to do, deliver it, and get the reward. it's pretty straight forward, but you need a freighter with 860k cargo to work for us. No industrial allowed for RF Contracts. Push works differently, you need to ATK the oldest contract (afaik), and there is micro-push with smaller load/collateral that you can do in an indy. you still get 100% of the reward with them, too. check out channel "profit" to see our current recruitment status!
You're done your homework well :) Pretty much everything is correct there. Yes, we are pushing freight mostly ATK, since we focus on really fast deliveries. Oldest contracts are generally priorized, but of course we're not asking people to run from Rens to Jita to take the oldest contract when the second oldest is from Hek to Rens :)
For more details, see our recruitment post: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=52000
As for the original discussion: A fixed percentage of the collateral is just not going to work. I think enough examples were given already (laughably low reward for long routes with low collateral; ridiculously high reward for short routes with high collateral). And 7.5%? Now you're just trollin :) Get an idea of the freight business in EVE and about the reward-per-hour in it, before posting suggestions like this. With 7.5% minimum reward, all haulers would be trillionaires in no time...
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Red Frog Rufen
Red Frog Freight Red-Frog
14
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Posted - 2012.03.02 02:22:00 -
[62] - Quote
you have to know your competition! :)
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Tidurious
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
138
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Posted - 2012.03.02 05:39:00 -
[63] - Quote
This sounds like a lot of whining from someone who should probably join a hauler corp. I've used PUSH Industries several times - they've done great work, and they're quick, as mentioned earlier. I'm willing to pay for that service.
Just because you're not happy with what you've been making, that doesn't entitle you to force others to pay more. If folks aren't willing to pay enough, no one will move their stuff. It's as simple as that. There is NO legitimate reason to force players to pay a certain amount to move their stuff.
Stop whining or stop playing. |
Ai Shun
331
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Posted - 2012.03.02 05:41:00 -
[64] - Quote
Tidurious wrote:This sounds like a lot of whining from someone who should probably join a hauler corp. I've used PUSH Industries several times - they've done great work, and they're quick, as mentioned earlier. I'm willing to pay for that service.
Agreed. I've been using them exclusively for a while now. If only there was a way to get a "Frequent Flyer" discount; because often it is a small cargo that I need moved for trade purposes.
Tidurious wrote:Stop whining or stop playing.
He has stopped playing and biomassed the character. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
64
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Posted - 2012.03.02 05:59:00 -
[65] - Quote
corvus acanum wrote:I don't haul but I agree with you on this. If someone is going to ask a billion or more isk in collateral to move something and then only offer ten million isk that is stupid. In the real world that would never happen. That kind of mentality is why courier contracts hardly seem to work at all they are just not worth the money. I would like to see something like this happen as well. If their contract is terrible then don't accept it. Nobody is forcing you to take bad contracts, so don't force them to pay you more than they are willing to.
If nobody accepts their contracts then they'll have to offer more money to get their stuff moved. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
991
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Posted - 2012.03.02 06:19:00 -
[66] - Quote
The fair reward for a contract is the lowest price that anyone will accept for hauling your cargo. Thankfully there are enough people looking to fill deadheads that you can put ridiculously low rewards in for your contracts and still have them hauled.
Courier contracts are most beneficial to people who are already hauling stuff anyway. I've found that sending my junk from A to B in many small packages ends up with a faster delivery time than sending it all as one big package. Those freighter pilots are looking to maximise the return on their investment. If they've got spare space, they'll look for a low-value courier contract (remembering that carrying more than 1B ISK worth of stuff in a freighter is begging to be suicide ganked in Uedama)
The current low rewards for courier contracts simply reflect the ease with which most courier contracts can be fulfilled, and the nature of the people who generally accept courier contracts.
Attempting to regulate the courier contract market will just strangle it. This is not about what is "fair" or "just". This is about fools trying to use public courier contracts as an income stream, when they are competing with people who are simply trying to defray the cost of deadhead runs. You are trying to make a living, they are trying to make some pin money. It is not the market that needs to be corrected, it is your understanding of the market and your expectations of reward from participating in this market.
Remember, any time the world doesn't meet your expectations, it is not the world that must change.
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Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
248
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Posted - 2012.03.05 08:54:00 -
[67] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:Not supported. If you don't like the pay available, start or join a hauling corp like Red Frog. There is no need to institute this solution when all you have to do is ignore low paying contracts. The underlying logic of your proposition is essentially that people should be forced to pay a certain amount because the collateral is so large. The collateral issue is only one of liquidity. You aren't losing the money; you're temporarily losing access to it. The cost of hauling is about the time; it's not about the amount of the collateral. If there is a contract for 50 jumps (longest possible station to station pure hisec route) for an item with collateral of 100k, 7500 is a laughable reward. And if a contract is for Jita 4-4 to Jita 4-5 with a collateral of 2 billion, a reward of 150 million is absurdly expensive. If what you want is better pay for contracts overall, do what I and many others have, don't EVER take crap contracts. So, haulers of eve unite... and stop taking crappy contracts.
^^This^^
Former trucker here, so I can confirm that this time, what works IRL will work in EVE:
Tell people who give "cheap freight" as we call it, that they can go **** themselves.
The herd (IE the useful idiots whom, with pitiful eagerness, take cheap freight for peanuts and then whinge on the CB all day about how they're barely keeping their trucks running) will then be culled in due course.
The smart ones will survive and prosper. The dumb ones...will die dumb, and broke.
In irae, veritas. |
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