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Lag and the battles it wins

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Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.10 22:30:00 - [61] Edited by: Ztrain on 10/09/2007 22:37:33 Without going in to deeply in to CCPs architecture blunders will explain some of the basic issues. Through carefully examining how their client works certian things have been noticed and tested. Of the "techniques" used in lag combat of course I'm not going to explain most but man have they saved my ass on big jump in's many of times. But just as an example, commands on the client are sent to the server whether it shows on your screen or not. In certain situations this allows you to issue commands to the server before your client shows or even registers your actions. When you initiate warp in a laggy inviroment that command goes to the server. The server responds to the reuest and tells your client that your going in to warp in X direction. So your flying along in warp. What happens is well absoutly nothing. What SHOULD be happening is the server is starting to update your client with the grid of what your about to load in too. All of it. Not limited bandwidth at a fixed rate but as much of what your about to land in as your connection can handle. You arrive on grid, and now your client "visually" locks. I stress visually because operationally it is still working. At this point you can still issue commands and have them relayed to the server. Most people just sit there thinking they can't do anything. Why CCP does this I have no idea. Mean while the server has registered you as arriving at your destination and technically you have. So everyone else sees you warp in to the grid but your client is artifically locked. Showing performance graphs on my machine has shown that the client is not thrashing the HD loading models or maxing out the processing power of the computer but mostly sitting idle waiting for the server to get around to sending all the information from the grid. When the client "thinks" it has the whole picture it unlocks and you start seeing your slide show. During this locked phase certian command can be executed if you think about it. While in warp line up visually with where you want to warp out to. So you can see on your screen your warp out point. Use a mouse with a button assinged for double click. Then your command will be deliverd as a double click event and not be based on the timings of a locked up client. The client still sends that command to server and generally when my client unlocks in a super laggy situation I've found that not only am I alighted and full speed but have traveled a decent distance. There are more ways that combat can be dealt with CCPs lack of experience. There are very simple way's to fix these software design issues. Such as pre loading on warp. As well as not locking the client interface so that people can at least see the part of the battle that the client has recieved from the server. In small fights great lets see all the graphics. But in 50+ person on grid fights turn off beam effect updating between clients. That will free up bandwidth for more relivant updates. Borderline NDA breaking here but think streaming sever for client server updates hint hint..... Having watched one of the EVE TV episodes with the new head designer over there though it would seem that adding more blob encouraging "features" and frivilious content such as walking in stations is more important then fixing what parts of the game people actually would like see fixed. /wishes Infinity was more along in development. Ohh well till then EVE is the only game in town. Hopefully CCP will fix their blunders before it just doesn't matter anymore. Z snip Don't use your signature to troll. -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Ahistaja GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.10 22:42:00 - [62] You know, we can all theorycraft from here to eternity, but I doubt anything will change until ALL of us in 0.0 alliances actually voice and press the issue. Revamping network code is likely a difficult and error-prone undertaking, and CCP would no doubt rather deal with walking in stations rather than recode any fundamentals. We should point out that fleet lag is a serious problem, one that affects the gameplay of a significant portion of EVE's subscribers.
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.11 04:42:00 - [63] I love the idea of bullet time and have suggested it before, however without knowing the details of how lag works it's difficult to say how effective it'd be. Lag is almost certainly not linear to the number of people in the system/battle, so slowing everything down by 4 times may increase effective server time by 4 times but only increase the number of clients it can handle from 200 to 250. Also people are likely to click scanner/realign ship when it doesn't need it/look in cargo/repeatedly recall drones/chat in channels/mail just as much. Plus server-side memory requirements will remain the same. But personally I'm prepared to accept a very serious slowdown, whatever it takes, so that it does become a terrain issue, but a fair one. You can even make up role-play junk to explain how 500 warp drives in close proximity distort space-time so much. Fairness is the key. If it takes 2 minutes to warp then it should take 2 minutes 15 seconds to light up a doomsday. _
Director Stoned Band of Developers	Posted - 2007.09.11 05:14:00 - [64] I'd like to see the server split in two or three. Peek is now about 35,000 and lag would just go away if there were only 12,000 per server. they could spilt via geographical lines so the euro's have a server, the yanks, and maybe an asian/aussie server (please not the chinesse server which last i heard was a total flop). more interestingly, they could also split it up by faction: goons server: SP capped at 3 mil per toon, goons get there own CAOD forums to whine and beat chests on. bob and pets server: Bob is allowed to realize thier lost dream of winning eve. carebear server: all belts are doubled in size and a 10/10 plex in every system.
Bella Nomah Razor Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.11 05:44:00 - [65] what about having dedicated nodes for each fleet? put one side on one node, the other side on another node, cap it at 250 per node (if you want more than a 250 man gang 2 nodes are required), make it sync with a master node, calcs are done for 1 fleet on one node then results sent to master node where everything is synced. would this scenario be possible?
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.11 06:01:00 - [66] Edited by: Ztrain on 11/09/2007 06:01:29 The way to do it is to have dedicated high use nodes processors or whatever you want to call them. These need to be able to handle on particular grid. You then break up the grids in high local count system. So have like 5-10 nodes reserved for high density. When local passes the 100 player in system mark that node copies the template from the actual node dividing up the common grids such as moons, gates up amongst the different nodes in that special cluster. Then all traffic to that system would instead of going to it's regular node go to the high traffic cluster. Everyone would almost appear to jump but then when they reloaded they'd be in the exact same place they were on the new node so other then a brief amount of lag like when jumping through a gate. When in the high traffic cluster the client server connection would be passed between the nodes mid warp. So if you warp from say a staging POS to the gate the server would pass you too the node on the gate. There by the traffic on that node would be only what was actually taking place in the battle. Would that get rid of all lag. Well no. Pre loading and not locking the client during loads would also help with apparent lag. As well as limiting cosmetic information in high traffic areas. Unfortunately it is my belief that this is something beyond the capabilities of the current dev team. I'd love for them to prove me wrong with Rev 3, but I'm really not holding my breath. Z Dr. Ztrain or: How I Learned to Stop Mining and Love the Desync
Blazde 4S Corporation Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.11 06:22:00 - [67] I'm not so sure session changing people midwarp wouldn't create more lag and you may have to lose stuff like scanning/probng between grids which would suck. I don't wanna see the mechanics of battle change, especially in an abrupt artificial way. We could just go into 1-hit kill mode, no drones, no reloading, no cap regen but it wouldn't be eve. For the same reasons I don't wanna see any hard limits on people per system/grid. _
Inosin Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries	Posted - 2007.09.11 06:47:00 - [68] Edited by: Inosin on 11/09/2007 06:50:39 Maybe you should think abbout how to make it more effective to divide a 500 people fleet in 5 Parts that to fly with on bigblob.. Maybe with some Kind of linked Pos or something in a Constellation or Region wich all become weaker the more are attacked at the same time or thinks like this wich force Fleets to divide to be more effective Maybe moving of Capitals has to be slower and more expensive so that defenders have to think abbout if they blob one Sys to slaughter a atacking part and then may not be at a other location fast enough or if they divide too. If the performance will be increased next months fleets will just grow aggain and then it will be 1000 vs 1000 "omf CCp it lags we hate you" whine here.. Just think abbout and bring ideas how to bring people to divide big fleets into small ones wihout breaking the gamebalance or just favoring small Allys.
Sal Alo Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.09.11 13:54:00 - [69] I think that we haven't the technology for a "unsharded" MMORPG, for now. Splitting into multiple shards/servers or/and abuse istancing is mandatory. Sorry CCP, your engineers failed the EvE technical design and frankly, I don't think you are going to get enlightenment with revelation 3 although I hope so.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.11 14:06:00 - [70] ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Barthezz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.11 14:12:00 - [71] We're going a bit off topic, this thread wasnt started as a "lets all decide how to stop it" topic, or a "ccp you suck" topic. As I stated in my initial thread, lag is here to stay for a while. Without blaming them, I do, for example, feel that BoB has much more experience dealing with lag and attacking systems under the influence of lag. This was pretty apparent in 25s a couple of days ago, our FC's where afraid of the lag while BoB was ruthless (their 2 titans in system probably helped a bit). Cant blame them, but it does show that BoB use lag (and the fear of lag) as a tactical advantage. And no that wasnt a whine but more an observation of the fact. Lag is here to stay, and the topic at hand isnt a solution to lag but more the way it affects alliance warfare. Several aspects of this game are affected by lag, but I do feel that alliance warfare and more specifically station system sieges are affected most by lag.
Blight1 Caldari Convergent Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.11 14:34:00 - [72] Ztrain, the guys at infinity are pure genious.... I eagerly await that game... to bad its a 1 man programing army who has more brains then all of CCP combined.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.11 16:27:00 - [73] Originally by: Sal Alo I think that we haven't the technology for a "unsharded" MMORPG, for now. Splitting into multiple shards/servers or/and abuse istancing is mandatory. Sorry CCP, your engineers failed the EvE technical design and frankly, I don't think you are going to get enlightenment with revelation 3 although I hope so. Sharding would have ZERO effect on reducing lag. The server is already a cluster where several servers handle different systems. Also the day CCP shards eve, eve dies within 2 months. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Telefishopolis GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.11 16:49:00 - [74] I think the ideal solution is a multi-sharded threading environment coded in Javascript. That way you could have a limited web interface for participating in market and limited fleet activity from a browser, while capitalizing on the web 2.0 paradigm in the new market economy. Python is 4 nubz.
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:04:00 - [75] Originally by: Blazde I'm not so sure session changing people midwarp wouldn't create more lag and you may have to lose stuff like scanning/probng between grids which would suck. I don't wanna see the mechanics of battle change, especially in an abrupt artificial way. We could just go into 1-hit kill mode, no drones, no reloading, no cap regen but it wouldn't be eve. For the same reasons I don't wanna see any hard limits on people per system/grid. I see what your saying. Although I don't think it would be too much of a problem. The client would not need to be reloaded in that instance just te connection hand off and condition hand off between the server. The client wouldn't reload like a jump or anything. It is kinda like how other games have proven to work very successfully to move from node to node in the many seamless game environments used today. Like I said before I don't think this alone would reduce all the lag. But what it would do would be eliminate the lag from completely unrelated events compounding. For example the recent 25s engagements. I was in rr- at a SS. The order was given to jump. It took me two minutes to get in to warp just from my SS. My alt 2 systems over also experienced the lag spike. So it's not even down to the system level on a node basis. It really needs to be divided up a lot more. Z Dr. Ztrain or: How I Learned to Stop Mining and Love the Desync
Svetlanna The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:20:00 - [76] Signed on original post here. So many of us are complaining about this, and so little is done about it in response from CCP... Why? only 2 options here: 1) is costs too much money for CCP to invest and try solving the issue, therefore refusing and keeping ignoring the complaints 2) CCP has no clue. Which one is it? I suggest that you guys going to the FAN FEAST address this issue seriously... please.
Ztrain Evolution Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:30:00 - [77] Originally by: Svetlanna Signed on original post here. 1) is costs too much money for CCP to invest and try solving the issue, therefore refusing and keeping ignoring the complaints 2) CCP has no clue. Which one is it? By my observations of how it works. Definitely 2. Z Dr. Ztrain or: How I Learned to Stop Mining and Love the Desync
Martinez Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.11 17:49:00 - [78] Edited by: Martinez on 11/09/2007 17:50:46 Maybe if there was a way to disable all the extra information like you do with turrets and effects. That way the server isnt having to do all of that new information everytime someone jumps into system or shoots their guns. i dont even know if that can be done but i would do pretty much anything to have lag free fights. I am sure most people feel lag is really hurting the game as more people have moved to 0.0 for the fun. i know from last sunday that lag sucks. i waited like 5 hours to finally get a good fight, jumped into 25s and never loaded. after 35 mins we where told to just log off. went to my character screen and sure enough i am in station. Of course i petitioned it but we all know how that goes. We all want good fights, but caps on systems, or different shards or whatever isnt the answer. ccp has bragged for sometime that they became debt free very quickly and now with 190k in subcriptions i would say they are making a good chunk of change now. i dont care if you have to put a node or whatever in every system, take the money that we pay to play this game and fix the game. no more eve voice, or trading cards, or tshirts. WE WANT YOU TO FIX THE LAG!!!!
DeadDuck Amarr IONSTAR Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:14:00 - [79] The major lag issues happen when the 2 major blocks colide. When by any chance the coaliton forces fight against the alliance ones the odds are that hundreds of pilots will be involved in the fight. It started with the BOB vs ASCN war and since then it only gets worse with more and more alliances being pulled to the conflict to one of the sides and the fleets increasing in proportion. Until the political situation changes the lag will be omnipresent and might even increase, unless CCP takes special measures. One of them could be paying close attention to where the big battles could happen and put dedicated nodes in those systems. For example 49-U, 25S and FAT areas will see major fights in the upcoming days while the coaliton and alliance forces fight to be in control of those stations. The forces involved will, without any doubt, lead to a presence of hundreds of pilots in those systems.
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:17:00 - [80] Originally by: Martinez Edited by: Martinez on 11/09/2007 17:50:46 Maybe if there was a way to disable all the extra information like you do with turrets and effects. That way the server isnt having to do all of that new information everytime someone jumps into system or shoots their guns. i dont even know if that can be done but i would do pretty much anything to have lag free fights. In MechWarrior 2, you could go into wireframe mode, which would boost your fps / lower lag. I think someone suggested on the forums that there be a "lite" version of the client just for fleet battles with the bare minimum graphics, e.g. icons and lines. - Got grief?
Yazoul Samaiel Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.11 23:44:00 - [81] Unless i am very wrong , i dont think the graphics and effects are the real cause of the lag . Its the amount of operations server wise that each person takes and its clearly ahppens durign engaments or jump ins . Person x jumps in server has to calcualte his skill lvls and mods and how they affect each other and loads his data to the system and he starts shooting , trajectory caluclation and hit and miss % etc etc Imo it all comes down to the number of ppl the current technology can serve and if thats the real reason then we cant realy blame CCP for it but CCP's only solution is to limit or move into a dirction of small fleet warefare instead of huge blobs.
unhealthyman GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.12 00:33:00 - [82] A couple of people seem to be seriously suggesting a kind of 'bullet time'. Have you actually thought this through at all or are you joking? How would that fit in with the rest of the eve universe? Would it be that everyone slows down to accommodate for one battle? Could you imagine the furore caused if everyone living in empire was periodically slowed to 1/5th normal speed because of a big battle in 0.0 or an especially busy day in Jita? Alternatively, just the system could go into slow time and then after the battle it goes into fast forward to get back in sync with the rest of the game? Because that's a great idea as well. In fact, this would also be brutally open to abuse as well, as you could then just lag the system to stretch time in order to delay poses coming out of reinforced etc. So were any of you seriously suggesting it? If so, how would it work?
WraithFire Cassandra's Light Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.12 08:44:00 - [83] Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Imo it all comes down to the number of ppl the current technology can serve and if thats the real reason then we cant realy blame CCP for it but CCP's only solution is to limit or move into a dirction of small fleet warefare instead of huge blobs. Actually we could blame CCP. They continued to make claims that their server can handle the number of people, and pass the blame on subscriber's client as being the problem. Such example, were there evemails on players that petitioned for their ships that was lost during the lagfest battle in which they always claim that there were nothing wrong on their end. However, the number of responses to this thread says it otherwise. It is true that this is the only space MMO around at this point in time that some players, even though disgusted with the lag and desynch issues, are putting up with it due to lack of options. However, how long will that argument be true? If another space MMO comes around with an idea that almost resemble EVE, and offers a degree of playability, CCP will be in a dilema. If CCP is thinking long term, it would be ideal to fix the server rather than pretending that their is nothing wrong. With all this lagfest, it is only creating a detestable feeling among players that may have a huge impact in the future of the CCP as a company. --------------------- Carebears? Where?
Palkan Grindolo Minmatar PURE Legion Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.12 11:48:00 - [84] Originally by: WraithFire Actually we could blame CCP. They continued to make claims that their server can handle the number of people, and pass the blame on subscriber's client as being the problem. Such example, were there evemails on players that petitioned for their ships that was lost during the lagfest battle in which they always claim that there were nothing wrong on their end. However, the number of responses to this thread says it otherwise. It is true that this is the only space MMO around at this point in time that some players, even though disgusted with the lag and desynch issues, are putting up with it due to lack of options. However, how long will that argument be true? If another space MMO comes around with an idea that almost resemble EVE, and offers a degree of playability, CCP will be in a dilema. If CCP is thinking long term, it would be ideal to fix the server rather than pretending that their is nothing wrong. With all this lagfest, it is only creating a detestable feeling among players that may have a huge impact in the future of the CCP as a company. I don't play much at all these days, though I do keep my subsription alive and skills up to date. It seems to me that lag is a constant, and major, problem, and is one of the reasons I hate fleet battles. As a layman, I cannot understand the lack of action fron CCP. Is it really beyond modern technology to solve the problem just by throwing huge processor power/memory/whatever at it? As I say, I am truly a computer illiterate regarding techie stuff, but surely the only barrier here is cost? With a game like EvE, the reward/penalty ratio is marginal to say the least, and gameplay issues like lag only make it worse I constantly read on our own alliance forums the problems caused by the lag monster, and it seems to be the major point of discussion in one way or another on these forums. CCP need to realise that there are many many players who are becoming increasingly disgruntled, and will vote with their wallets. Investment now will reap dividends later. So, is it just a hardware thing? Would a bajillion Krays with solid state memory solve it? Palky (an old guy) _____________________________________________ Signature made by Denrace
Darcuese Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:27:00 - [85] Edited by: Darcuese on 12/09/2007 12:29:39 Edited by: Darcuese on 12/09/2007 12:27:19 My second post in this thread. 3 options, IMO, that can solve the lag situations globally: 1) Game mechanic regarding poses and taking out systems, consts, regions (to kill something you need to have big number as much as to defend=lag+lag+lag) 2) Hardware + Software. Change, upgrade, reorganize, something. Very costly and takes much time 3) TWEAKING FROM CLIENT SIDE. I believe if CCP enable some options for players to cut some things they dont need while playing. Communication between servers and clients should be ebtter = less lag. (I hope though) And while im still here, im so annoyed with watching missiles in space while all effects are of me, myself and I ------>
Barthezz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.12 12:42:00 - [86] I'll bite, if you want things that could increase server load you'd have to look at cutting down the server calculations needed in big fleet fights. When the load goes above x% do the following: * Disable collision detection * Disable transmission (and registration) of effects except 'really important effects' (e.g. no more missiles / gun effects, just the damage-end result, still show scrambler effects and warp bubbles but dont transmit the fact that someone is using their MWD) I think those two would already help a bunch. However it doesnt matter as nothing will happen soon in the form of a lag-reduction. Well, the client lag will (hopefully) disappear when Trinity 2 comes in November.
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:27:00 - [87] Edited by: Andargor theWise on 12/09/2007 13:28:25 Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel Unless i am very wrong , i dont think the graphics and effects are the real cause of the lag . Its the amount of operations server wise that each person takes and its clearly ahppens durign engaments or jump ins . Person x jumps in server has to calcualte his skill lvls and mods and how they affect each other and loads his data to the system and he starts shooting , trajectory caluclation and hit and miss % etc etc You may be correct. Lag may also be connected to module activations, i.e. you activate the module and the server has to acknowledge and calculate it. It might be many things. Without knowing how the client works exactly, it's hard to say. But I would say that an interface with simpler graphics would help, with an optimized overview, especially the fleet interface which seems to be problematic performance-wise. EDIT: Maybe squad members should only see their squad-mates, wing commanders only their squad commanders, etc.? - Got grief?
Varrakk Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.12 13:37:00 - [88] CCP already got all the tools they need to ôhelpö fleet battles, its in the sovereignty system. The server keeps track of sovereignty, it also keeps track of players in space, ships killed etc. It also knows when a POS comes out of reinforcement. Factoring in all these, the server can pretty accurately predict where the huge fleets will clash. At DT they will automatically load these systems on reinforced nodes (and we wont have to make node-reset petitions during the actual battle). It wont solve fleet lag, just reduce it.
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:17:00 - [89] Ztrain has raised some interesting points. The slow motion idea is also good but I have some comments. People talk about instancing as a solution. However, each grid is effectively an instance. If you crowd everyone into a single instance/grid it's going to lag due to real world limits. Slow motion is good because everything can process and respond "simultaneously" rather than not have any update. A throttle for the data sent would also be a good idea, it would need some calibration but consider the following. If you get say over 100 people on the grid the data for non-critical effects could be removed from the datastream (even though it does not appear to stream updates). Above 200 people the slow motion effect could start being put into effect. This throttling could be either fixed numbers or could potentially be pegged to server load. Either method there are issues and possibly odd-ball effects but would give a higher chance of a "fair fight" where you might get to lock and shoot with the slow down effecting everyone evenly. The server might even get a chance to send the grid to people before they're podded. I would love some discussion in relation to this. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Chib Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.13 02:55:00 - [90] ccp have stated a zillion times that they are working with 7yr old code things are set to improve with the new engine ofv it will take time to get right after patch ---------------------------------------------

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