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Barthezz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:33:00 -
[1]
In the past few weeks I've seen an alarming trend emerge in EvE online. And although itÆs been going on for a while now, things seem to only get worse.
The recent battles that I've seen / read about must have been ED-, BGK and 0oY-. I've probably missed a fair few there as well, but what (about 6-12 months ago) used to be an "omg" task (get 600+ in a system) seems to be a normal occurrence now in.
ED- rose to +500 people, BGK even went above 700 and the fight in 0oY- never took place (from what I read on scrapheap challenge forums) as there were 80+ carriers on both sides (so 160 in total) where the attacker even rumored to have had 600+ support waiting in a few systems away.
I canÆt comment on other systems but I know for a fact that no serious fighting took place in ED- because of lag. Everyone there was ready for a fight but lag just wouldnÆt allow it to happen.
All the evidence currently says that the lag will stay here for a while, so we will have to adapt. But itÆs obvious that lag has become a deciding factor in alliance warfare.
I personally feel its ruining it for me, alliance warfare no longer is about strategy (something that CCP wanted to add with the POS changes) and in some ways itÆs not about numbers either . At some point the things that should get you wins now barely keeps the node running. And thereÆs no solution in sight, at least I donÆt see it. You canÆt really tell your enemy to only bring 200 if you only bring 200.
Maybe I should become a pirate, low sec is always nice and quiet with not that much lag 
But how do you feel it has changed and is changing alliance warfare?
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BuIIseye
Amarr
Pax Amarria Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:41:00 -
[2]
Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.
Too bad it didn't worked 
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Yes i am hax0r
Because of the name I have a higher chance of a wrecking shot, please don't tell the GM's or they'll nerf me =/ |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:53:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/09/2007 09:53:16
Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone. Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention. Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.
There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc. In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!
I know how you are feeling, but conqurable space is not easy and never ment to be easy, but my reccomendation is that you get a alt and use small scale pvp on the alt char while your main is focused on fleets so you get the best of both worlds.
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Billion Isk Mission |
Barthezz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.08 10:03:00 -
[4]
Dont get me wrong, I love huge fleet fights. I loved the 150 vs 150 on monday in FAT (I'm guessing it was 150vs150). Thats not really my point of this post.
I'm just wondering how others see how alliance warfare is being changed and has changed, not because of bigger numbers but because of the (unplayable) lag it adds to the game.
I know for a fact that we will either keep or lose 25s, not due to better tactics (or wose), not due to more (or less) numbers, but due to lag. Making actually defending the space impossible.
So lets not talk about me, even though I'm always a hawth subject  but lets talk about how lag is changing alliance warfare. I honestly like to know how others feel about it and this shouldnt be seen as a whine.
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Space Harrier
Minmatar
Roman Holiday
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Posted - 2007.09.08 10:59:00 -
[5]
Lag is merely a product of the way EVE is going these days.
Since half of EVE 0.0 is now pitted against the other half, the forces are gradually congregating in the same spot - to fight over the same tactical locations, and this has given birth to the super blob.
It's the player created politics that has created this situation.
Not the lag.
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thoth foc
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.09.08 11:00:00 -
[6]
Eve is a game designed without the concept of "crowd control" other than node performance. As with everything this could be considered to has good aspects and bad. Crowd control limits the zerg/peewee rush strategies, which some groups favor. They also add extra levels of work every time an improvement is made for performance. On the other hand without crowd control you get crowds. Crowd control tends to favor skilled players, and so are usually massively unpopular.
_________________________
xMenta (DSMA)
xBOS (CA)
ATUK (.5.)
DICE (BOB)
Elcyion Lacar
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CiNi
FireStar Inc
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.08 11:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: CiNi on 08/09/2007 11:15:41
To be honest i feel that territorial warfare really is decided by lag as much as timezone considerations now. If we cant get in to defend our systems then the other guys win and vice versa. Unfortunately i dont see any way for CCP to do anythign about it.
In the past it was a case of 200 would kill a system stone dead but now it takes 4 or 500 so things ARE getting better. The players just keep bringing more and more. Which obviously is gonna happen cos your defending your home or trying to expand your territory and will throw everything you have at it.
I see no end in sight for the lagmonster, i guess we're all gonna have to deal with it or stop playing these territorial games.
 Originally by: Lord WarATron
In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!
qft
that 10% is trully awesome when you get it.
DONT RUN!! WE ARE YOUR FRIENDS!! ACKACKACK!! |
CkoBoPodKuH
Horns and Hoofs Ltd
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Posted - 2007.09.08 11:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: thoth foc
Eve is a game designed without the concept of "crowd control" other than node performance. As with everything this could be considered to has good aspects and bad. Crowd control limits the zerg/peewee rush strategies, which some groups favor. They also add extra levels of work every time an improvement is made for performance. On the other hand without crowd control you get crowds. Crowd control tends to favor skilled players, and so are usually massively unpopular.
5 is dead. go back to your crypt, mummy.
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SugarDaddy
Comando Vermelho
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.08 11:34:00 -
[9]
It¦s time eve to leave the Beta stage and put up some instances.
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Khorian
Gallente
Excidium.
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Posted - 2007.09.08 11:50:00 -
[10]
While Lag is a problem, Instancing is the cheapest and crappiest way to deal with it. Instances are crap and don't belong into EvE... Pirates of the Burning Sea maybe, but not EvE.
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Kcel Chim
Caldari
Arcane Technologies
The Five
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Posted - 2007.09.08 12:15:00 -
[11]
well instancing isnt the best way to go but there should be a certain limit per side per system to prevent uberblobs like we have now. A limit could be 150-200 ppl per side as an above poster suggested he had a good fight at that level.
This would allow for more simultaneous actions (if your alliance has i.e. over 150-200 pilots) in multiple regions or systems. Also it would stop ppl event attempting the play the lag card as it would be no longer viable.
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Shoukei
Boobs Ahoy
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Posted - 2007.09.08 12:35:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Kcel Chim
well instancing isnt the best way to go but there should be a certain limit per side per system to prevent uberblobs like we have now. A limit could be 150-200 ppl per side as an above poster suggested he had a good fight at that level.
This would allow for more simultaneous actions (if your alliance has i.e. over 150-200 pilots) in multiple regions or systems. Also it would stop ppl event attempting the play the lag card as it would be no longer viable.
fixing lag by preventing people from fielding 600 blobs would make too much sense 
here be signatures! |
Andraine
Coded Arms Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.08 12:36:00 -
[13]
Everyone knows real pvp is to be had in empire! 
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Ponderous Thunderstroke
Republic War Machine Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.08 13:59:00 -
[14]
When you enforce a hard cap at an even number per side, then you are guaranteeing that the low-SP team can never beat the high-SP team save by virtue of luck, or mental/tactical lapse on the part of the high-SP team. Which basically turns 0.0 into a giant economy size version of the alliance tournament in every fight.
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Dagam
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.08 15:39:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Dagam on 08/09/2007 15:41:39
Lag affects everyone and it's in everyone's interest (not just high-SP players or low-SP players) to eliminate it. In this thread we had a proposal to lower the number of fighters but keep the dps the same in order to reduce lag in fleet fights but apparently some BoB members think this is unreasonable.
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KeyserSoze
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Posted - 2007.09.08 15:42:00 -
[16]
i dont understand most people that complain about fleet battles and the lag. arent you amazed that the systems can actually have 600 PEOPLE in them?. Think about it a second and reply.
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Ahistaja
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.08 16:04:00 -
[17]
I hate lag, but can't really be mad at CCP about it, either. :(
The amount of data to be processed and transmitted in a grid increases exponentially with the number of players. If tracking a ship on a grid takes, say, 1 kilobyte per second, then..
With 5 people on grid, you're sending 5 units of data to 5 people, at a reasonable 25 kB/s
With 50 people on grid, that's 50x50, or 2500 kB/s
With 500 people on grid, that's 500x500, or 250,000 kB/s
With 1000-2000.... we're feeling the limits of technology.
To make away with the lag, CCP should do what it should've done since the very beginning - to allow capital ships be docked and manned by several people, with different people taking care of different subsystems and weaponry.
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Barthezz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.08 16:36:00 -
[18]
Originally by: KeyserSoze
i dont understand most people that complain about fleet battles and the lag. arent you amazed that the systems can actually have 600 PEOPLE in them?. Think about it a second and reply.
Well I am amazed but that doesnt remove the fact that the lag that is introduced affects alliance warfare, making it for one side impossible to do what they came to do. Be it attack or defend.
I just wonder(ed) how others feel about this, not so much as a whine but more out of intrest 
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fightnkill
Greenspring
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Posted - 2007.09.08 16:36:00 -
[19]
Even thou your enemy will deny it
They're probabbly using Lag to turkey shoot your fleet.
If they're intentionally using lag against you, you should return the favor.
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Rhaegor Stormborn
Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
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Posted - 2007.09.08 16:40:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SugarDaddy
It¦s time eve to leave the Beta stage and put up some instances.
Eve Online needs to leave beta and fix the damn lag problems, but instances are terrible and are the bane of MMOGs. They destroy PvP and would ruin Eve Online. PotBS is a terrible terrible terrible game because of its heavy use of instances.
Rhaegor Stormborn
Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated
[PIA] Recruitment Thread |
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Mistae
Resurrection
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.09.08 20:58:00 -
[21]
Eve Online needs to leave beta and fix the damn lag problems, DITTO
They act as if it is a "bug" when it is the core of the game which remains broken. You have all these myriad of rule changes, adjustments and fine tuning of ships and skills and then when you are part of a big fleet action, the ship you have worked so hard to equip and the skills you have worked so hard to attain are totally worthless. You try to activate a module, you wait and wait and wait the next frame that displays shows you in a pod.
No matter how you spin it that is not a bug, that is broken. The thing which makes it mor aggravating is that there is absolutely no sign that it will be fixed this year even.
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Neoromi
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Posted - 2007.09.08 21:02:00 -
[22]
Failureswarm!
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Dark Shikari
Caldari
Imperium Technologies
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.09.08 21:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Barthezz
In the past few weeks I've seen an alarming trend emerge in EvE online. And although itÆs been going on for a while now, things seem to only get worse.
The recent battles that I've seen / read about must have been ED-, BGK and 0oY-. I've probably missed a fair few there as well, but what (about 6-12 months ago) used to be an "omg" task (get 600+ in a system) seems to be a normal occurrence now in.
ED- rose to +500 people, BGK even went above 700 and the fight in 0oY- never took place (from what I read on scrapheap challenge forums) as there were 80+ carriers on both sides (so 160 in total) where the attacker even rumored to have had 600+ support waiting in a few systems away.
I canÆt comment on other systems but I know for a fact that no serious fighting took place in ED- because of lag. Everyone there was ready for a fight but lag just wouldnÆt allow it to happen.
All the evidence currently says that the lag will stay here for a while, so we will have to adapt. But itÆs obvious that lag has become a deciding factor in alliance warfare.
I personally feel its ruining it for me, alliance warfare no longer is about strategy (something that CCP wanted to add with the POS changes) and in some ways itÆs not about numbers either . At some point the things that should get you wins now barely keeps the node running. And thereÆs no solution in sight, at least I donÆt see it. You canÆt really tell your enemy to only bring 200 if you only bring 200.
Maybe I should become a pirate, low sec is always nice and quiet with not that much lag
But how do you feel it has changed and is changing alliance warfare?
I agree with this post.
CCP has consistently added features to the game that seem designed to force people to jump into larger and larger fleets (cyno jammers anyone?) Yet the server can't handle it.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.08 21:57:00 -
[24]
The lag will not be fixed, not when CCP hasn't been able to make Drones return to the Drone Bay properly for years. :-/
Many wannabe-solutions have been proposed, none are particularly clever or realistic.
Considering CCP's ability to fix bugs and improve the game technically, I'd say the closest thing to a solution for lag is to make the EVE universe much bigger (5-10 times) and increase travel times for capital ships (as in: cut jump ranges in half or increase solar system distances by 2x).
Sure, there will still be blobs at interesting chokepoints, but people will have more choices, such as spreading out to avoid wars...
isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
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Dal Thrax
Multiverse Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.08 22:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: BuIIseye
Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.
Too bad it didn't worked
Honestly, while I know you're joking at this point that's not a half bad idea. When local goes beyond a certain number drop from real time combat to a delayed system in which one turn = about 20-30 seconds and damage amounts, rep amounts, ectra are multiplies accordingly. Basically a semi turn based system. Not great I know but at least people would be able to fight.
Dal
Originally by: Seleene
It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.
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Jonny JoJo
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Posted - 2007.09.09 00:42:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Jonny JoJo on 09/09/2007 00:43:45
Originally by: Dal Thrax
Originally by: BuIIseye
Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.
Too bad it didn't worked
Honestly, while I know you're joking at this point that's not a half bad idea. When local goes beyond a certain number drop from real time combat to a delayed system in which one turn = about 20-30 seconds and damage amounts, rep amounts, ectra are multiplies accordingly. Basically a semi turn based system. Not great I know but at least people would be able to fight.
Dal
The problem is, whenever a gang member uncloaks or jumps, eve seems to want to recalculate the entire gang tree, causing a slight freeze for everyone else in gang. When someone fires a turrets, eve appears to also update everyone else on grid that a turret was fired. Now imagine 8 turrets from 200 battleships. Bang - Tens of Thousands of independant updates wasting lots of resources.
Eidt Opps wrong char.
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torN Deception
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.09 01:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/09/2007 09:53:16
Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone. Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention. Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.
There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc. In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!
I know how you are feeling, but conqurable space is not easy and never ment to be easy, but my reccomendation is that you get a alt and use small scale pvp on the alt char while your main is focused on fleets so you get the best of both worlds.
How would fixing lag make the game any easier, unless you concede that lag disproportionately helps one side? |
Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.09 01:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: torN Deception
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/09/2007 09:53:16
Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone. Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention. Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.
There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc. In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!
I know how you are feeling, but conqurable space is not easy and never ment to be easy, but my reccomendation is that you get a alt and use small scale pvp on the alt char while your main is focused on fleets so you get the best of both worlds.
How would fixing lag make the game any easier, unless you concede that lag disproportionately helps one side?
How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Ramlir
0.0 Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.09 01:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?
You didn't understand what he said so you repeated his post. Never would have expected that from the intellectual superpower, 'Lord WarATron'.
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unhealthyman
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.09 02:00:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?
And who says goons have a monopoly on clogging up the forums with offtopic flames?
You said holding space isn't meant to be easy - sure that's fine. But lag isn't an intentional difficulty level, it is an unintentional aspect of the game that makes it unplayable and unenjoyable. Anyone who claims lag as a fun 'feature' is truly deluded.
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