Originally by: Lord WarATron

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In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!

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Originally by: thoth foc

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Eve is a game designed without the concept of "crowd control" other than node performance. As with everything this could be considered to has good aspects and bad. Crowd control limits the zerg/peewee rush strategies, which some groups favor. They also add extra levels of work every time an improvement is made for performance. On the other hand without crowd control you get crowds. Crowd control tends to favor skilled players, and so are usually massively unpopular.

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Originally by: Kcel Chim

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well instancing isnt the best way to go but there should be a certain limit per side per system to prevent uberblobs like we have now. A limit could be 150-200 ppl per side as an above poster suggested he had a good fight at that level.

This would allow for more simultaneous actions (if your alliance has i.e. over 150-200 pilots) in multiple regions or systems. Also it would stop ppl event attempting the play the lag card as it would be no longer viable.

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Originally by: KeyserSoze

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i dont understand most people that complain about fleet battles and the lag. arent you amazed that the systems can actually have 600 PEOPLE in them?. Think about it a second and reply.

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Originally by: SugarDaddy

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It¦s time eve to leave the Beta stage and put up some instances.

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Originally by: Barthezz

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In the past few weeks I've seen an alarming trend emerge in EvE online. And although itÆs been going on for a while now, things seem to only get worse.

The recent battles that I've seen / read about must have been ED-, BGK and 0oY-. I've probably missed a fair few there as well, but what (about 6-12 months ago) used to be an "omg" task (get 600+ in a system) seems to be a normal occurrence now in.

ED- rose to +500 people, BGK even went above 700 and the fight in 0oY- never took place (from what I read on scrapheap challenge forums) as there were 80+ carriers on both sides (so 160 in total) where the attacker even rumored to have had 600+ support waiting in a few systems away.

I canÆt comment on other systems but I know for a fact that no serious fighting took place in ED- because of lag. Everyone there was ready for a fight but lag just wouldnÆt allow it to happen.

All the evidence currently says that the lag will stay here for a while, so we will have to adapt. But itÆs obvious that lag has become a deciding factor in alliance warfare.

I personally feel its ruining it for me, alliance warfare no longer is about strategy (something that CCP wanted to add with the POS changes) and in some ways itÆs not about numbers either . At some point the things that should get you wins now barely keeps the node running. And thereÆs no solution in sight, at least I donÆt see it. You canÆt really tell your enemy to only bring 200 if you only bring 200.

Maybe I should become a pirate, low sec is always nice and quiet with not that much lag

But how do you feel it has changed and is changing alliance warfare?

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Originally by: BuIIseye

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Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.

Too bad it didn't worked

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Originally by: Seleene

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It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.

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Originally by: Dal Thrax

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Originally by: BuIIseye

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Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.

Too bad it didn't worked

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Honestly, while I know you're joking at this point that's not a half bad idea. When local goes beyond a certain number drop from real time combat to a delayed system in which one turn = about 20-30 seconds and damage amounts, rep amounts, ectra are multiplies accordingly. Basically a semi turn based system. Not great I know but at least people would be able to fight.

Dal

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/09/2007 09:53:16
Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone. Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention. Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.

There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc. In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!

I know how you are feeling, but conqurable space is not easy and never ment to be easy, but my reccomendation is that you get a alt and use small scale pvp on the alt char while your main is focused on fleets so you get the best of both worlds.

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Originally by: torN Deception

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Edited by: Lord WarATron on 08/09/2007 09:53:16
Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone. Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention. Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.

There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc. In other words, you know that you need to do the 90% deadlocks to get that 10% fun. And that 10% fun is the best in the whole of eve!

I know how you are feeling, but conqurable space is not easy and never ment to be easy, but my reccomendation is that you get a alt and use small scale pvp on the alt char while your main is focused on fleets so you get the best of both worlds.

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How would fixing lag make the game any easier, unless you concede that lag disproportionately helps one side?

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?

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Originally by: Ramlir

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?

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You didn't understand what he said so you repeated his post. Never would have expected that from the intellectual superpower, 'Lord WarATron'.

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Originally by: unhealthyman

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?

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And who says goons have a monopoly on clogging up the forums with offtopic flames?

You said holding space isn't meant to be easy - sure that's fine. But lag isn't an intentional difficulty level, it is an unintentional aspect of the game that makes it unplayable and unenjoyable. Anyone who claims lag as a fun 'feature' is truly deluded.

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Originally by: Dagam

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Edited by: Dagam on 08/09/2007 15:41:39
Lag affects everyone and it's in everyone's interest (not just high-SP players or low-SP players) to eliminate it. In this thread we had a proposal to lower the number of fighters but keep the dps the same in order to reduce lag in fleet fights but apparently some BoB members think this is unreasonable.

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Originally by: Icomeinpeace

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U don't really need ppl to scramble in fleet fights since you can't warp out anyway.

I had givin up on keeping a mean kill/death ratio a long time ago, we just gotta live with lag and hope ccp can sort it later.

Still a fun game though, but would be epic if it ran smoothly with houndreds of ppl.

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Originally by: Icomeinpeace

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U don't really need ppl to scramble in fleet fights since you can't warp out anyway.

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Originally by: Scavok

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Originally by: Icomeinpeace

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U don't really need ppl to scramble in fleet fights since you can't warp out anyway.

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This is true, but if the game has reached the point where we have to tell newbies to get out so the people with bigger guns can play, then the game has clearly reached it's player limit and ccp is in a really bad position.

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Originally by: unhealthyman

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You said holding space isn't meant to be easy - sure that's fine. But lag isn't an intentional difficulty level, it is an unintentional aspect of the game that makes it unplayable and unenjoyable. Anyone who claims lag as a fun 'feature' is truly deluded.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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How would trolling the forums make the game easier, unless you concede that trolling disproportionatety helps one side?

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Alliance Warfare is the extreme end of eve, not suitible for everyone.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Those lagfests represent 0.01% of eve pvp, but probebly cause 99.99% of the issues you mention.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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Eve pvp is very very lagfree, just charge your alt into lowsec or npc 0.0 and you will get the types of pvp you want.

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Originally by: Lord WarATron

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There will always be the "Terrain" issues, since a good general plans for bad weather. A alliance fleet pilot needs to know that since he is on the extreme end of what the servers can handle, which means you need to know you will have massive 30min+ lag, you will get desynced, you will die before grid loads etc.

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Originally by: EVIL SYNNs

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I don't get this 500 v 500 mentality.

Let me just explain.


My alliance has just put a system full of POS's into reinforced. The defenders move in and wait for me to come back to finish the job.

uh oh. Forget that. I would head as far away from there as possible (cause you know they are there) and hit another system or even 2 before they can get their logistics together to come and fight.

And repeat until the defenders are looking after 5 systems and you have free regin. POS stront timings give the advantage to the defender, but also forces their hand.

So stop the blob and go and kill 2 different systems at the same time. You know their defence is busy.

imho

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Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel

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The main problem with lag in eve is server load and i dont mean number of ppl connectedd , i mean the number of ppl requiring server operations and calulations from the server . Compare jita 600 ppl and lets say anyother big fight in 0.0 with 500 ppl even , the amount of computaion done here is exponential in comparison and back in the days b4 finaly ccp got the sense of adding WTZ and ppl got rid of their 10 k bm folders the game became more playable . As a result now the big fights we get 600 and 700 and more per system to now CCP are forced to penalise the blob or ofc buy some sort of a non existing hardware than handle 600 ppl in a system actualy doing something unlike ppl loitering in jita.

Peanlising blobs can come in many many ways for instance multipling the dmg from a titan DD depnding of the multiple of hostile numbers. Blob penalised on warp in , meaning they never warp in the same point due to warp interferace so they end up spread over the grid . Huge lock time and low sig radius for small gangs vs blobbed opponenets . Tbh if any of those penalities do get applied ppl will think 1000 times b4 saying " yeppeeeee lets make and 400 man gang and go lag out the system with our I-win button " this goes for all alliances tbh not just one entity since the result is a slideshow and 1 fps and you either find urself dysnched , spawned in a staion or just loaded after the fight is over . All these outcomes realy ruin the whole point of fleet fights and till there is some sort of restriction it will always be the same.

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Originally by: BuIIseye

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Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.

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Originally by: Syath

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sometimes i wonder who leads these alliances... a bunch of newbs methinks. THe plain fact of the matter is if u have 600-700 people why not spread them out over multiple systems, instead of losing 1 intense battle why not lose 1 and win 2 others, seriously people lets play eve smarter.

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Originally by: Seleene

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It seems to me that 'independence' is a relative term these days, determined mainly by the size and number of your guns.

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Originally by: Drebble

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Actually the idea to scale game time in
response to loads sounds very interesting.

I'd rather play smoothly at a reduced time
scale than look at a black screen and wait
for my ship to pop.

The level of slowdown would have to be
clearly displayed on the screen of course,
so that one can play accordingly.

Bring too many ships and the problem is
back of course, with time scaling that
puts module activation at hour+ intervals,
but at least you push the playable fleet
size upwards a notch from what we have
today.

At the very least an interesting idea.

//Drebble

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Originally by: BuIIseye

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Tbh the lag is just a failed CCP feature to make fleet combat more intense thru "slow motion" action.

Too bad it didn't worked

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Originally by: Sal Alo

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I think that we haven't the technology for a "unsharded" MMORPG, for now.

Splitting into multiple shards/servers or/and abuse istancing is mandatory.

Sorry CCP, your engineers failed the EvE technical design and frankly, I don't think you are going to get enlightenment with revelation 3 although I hope so.

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Originally by: Blazde

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I'm not so sure session changing people midwarp wouldn't create more lag and you may have to lose stuff like scanning/probng between grids which would suck. I don't wanna see the mechanics of battle change, especially in an abrupt artificial way. We could just go into 1-hit kill mode, no drones, no reloading, no cap regen but it wouldn't be eve. For the same reasons I don't wanna see any hard limits on people per system/grid.

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Originally by: Svetlanna

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Signed on original post here.

1) is costs too much money for CCP to invest and try solving the issue, therefore refusing and keeping ignoring the complaints
2) CCP has no clue.

Which one is it?

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Originally by: Martinez

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Edited by: Martinez on 11/09/2007 17:50:46
Maybe if there was a way to disable all the extra information like you do with turrets and effects. That way the server isnt having to do all of that new information everytime someone jumps into system or shoots their guns. i dont even know if that can be done but i would do pretty much anything to have lag free fights.

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Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel

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Imo it all comes down to the number of ppl the current technology can serve and if thats the real reason then we cant realy blame CCP for it but CCP's only solution is to limit or move into a dirction of small fleet warefare instead of huge blobs.

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Originally by: WraithFire

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Actually we could blame CCP. They continued to make claims that their server can handle the number of people, and pass the blame on subscriber's client as being the problem. Such example, were there evemails on players that petitioned for their ships that was lost during the lagfest battle in which they always claim that there were nothing wrong on their end. However, the number of responses to this thread says it otherwise.

It is true that this is the only space MMO around at this point in time that some players, even though disgusted with the lag and desynch issues, are putting up with it due to lack of options. However, how long will that argument be true? If another space MMO comes around with an idea that almost resemble EVE, and offers a degree of playability, CCP will be in a dilema. If CCP is thinking long term, it would be ideal to fix the server rather than pretending that their is nothing wrong. With all this lagfest, it is only creating a detestable feeling among players that may have a huge impact in the future of the CCP as a company.

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Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel

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Unless i am very wrong , i dont think the graphics and effects are the real cause of the lag . Its the amount of operations server wise that each person takes and its clearly ahppens durign engaments or jump ins . Person x jumps in server has to calcualte his skill lvls and mods and how they affect each other and loads his data to the system and he starts shooting , trajectory caluclation and hit and miss % etc etc

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Originally by: Chib

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ccp have stated a zillion times that they are working with 7yr old code

things are set to improve with the new engine
ofv it will take time to get right after patch

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