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Ronald Speirs
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Posted - 2004.02.12 21:06:00 -
[31]
This is such crap! Some little whiny ***** decides to complain that "Wah! I can't take the station from them easy! Wah!"
Stations belong to the corps that hold them. Meaning that THEY should get to decide to docks and doesn't dock. We already get to decide in non-combat situations.
CCP-put away the nerf club, and actually LET a corporation MEAN somehting in this game, instead of just a common chat room.
NOOBS-Shut up and learn to play the game. This isn't an exploit, nor is it unfair. POS have been fought for and won, and to the victor go the spoils.
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Faramir
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Posted - 2004.02.12 21:44:00 -
[32]
WRONG WRONG WRONG.....
Is a station only supposed to be a burden this way?
ps. Mr. mOo... you are complaining bout a tactic m0o used as long as it was possible... ironic isn't it???
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Doc Brown
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Posted - 2004.02.12 21:45:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Doc Brown on 12/02/2004 22:03:29
Edited by: Doc Brown on 12/02/2004 21:47:31
 Quote:
POS have been fought for and won, and to the victor go the spoils.
Exactly.
Not to mention that there is an issue with this change already!!!!:
If an attacking fleet takes over a station, they will get to dock and get their cap recharged for free. The defenders will be doubly screwed as they will likely be unable to dock and the likly counter-attack fleet will have to fight a bunch of fresh ships (instead of a hostile fleet that won the station but needs to recover). Makes holding fleets in reserve next to worthless.
_________________________________________________
There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations. |
TWD
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Posted - 2004.02.12 22:00:00 -
[34]
I agree that the defenders should have an advantage, but more in the form of sentryguns/warp disruptor fields etc |
Joviah
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Posted - 2004.02.12 22:09:00 -
[35]
As far as I know, there's nothing that will prevent an aggressor from placing a warp inhibitor around a station.
No, this is a really nonsensical change. What's the point of having a POS if I don't actually CONTROL how it operates? I mean come on people let's get real, if a station is owned by Tyrell, or any other corporation for that matter, there should be no restrictions on when a player of the owning corporation docks. Furthermore, there should be no restrictions placed on corporations with good standings. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that the players (owners) themselves should actually be able to set how long that aggression time lasts for based on standings with the owning corporation, just like everything else in that station.
Just my 2 ISK... which by now adds up to about 10 ISK in this thread. 
Joviah
Director, Cirrius Technologies
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Xtreem
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Posted - 2004.02.12 23:05:00 -
[36]
hmm i dont see the logic of not letting ur own forces recarge, re eqip (ammo etc) in there own base.... its just not a done thing, films, books, tv progs, they all use a base, to re fuel, re eqip, what if u run outta ammo in a big battle? u cant even dock to get more...
i for one am not going to bother with these POS (double meaning anyone lol)
ill wait
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.13 03:35:00 -
[37]
Edited by: j0sephine on 13/02/2004 03:37:30
... Isn't the aggression timer something like 30-60 seconds? So you'll have to stop shooting a bit in advance if you notice your damage is getting to the point you might need to dock soon... is it seriously worth to whine over it so much?
(not like it really helps much those who attack the station, either... but adds a requirement to plan a little ahead which is quite nice imo)
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Joviah
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Posted - 2004.02.13 04:30:00 -
[38]
After about 30-60 seconds, you may as well clone hop.
Joviah
Director, Cirrius Technologies
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.02.13 05:11:00 -
[39]
wtf ?? why own a station now if you dont have any advantage in defending it ? obviously ppl attacking will attack with superior amount of people as they know where to attack, so you just screw them more by making them unable to use the station to protect the station ??
Its already easy enough to destroy a station's shield from 10-15 enemies, you make it harder to defend it ??
"You cannot dock at this station as you are defending it" wow that makes sense for sure ! 
One would hope a station with 1 875 000 shields can afford to refill a ship with 4 000 shields and some energy !
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.13 05:31:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Omniwar on 13/02/2004 05:34:29
So most peaple think it is ok if the defending force NEVER EVER takes armor damage because they will just dock when they are low on shields ?
Come on peaple, that is most definetly not what it was intended for since that means the attacking force has no means whatsoever to win the fight.
For those who have posted the most against those changes, look at it from the other side, if you were to attack a station you cant win and then your tone would change a bit I bet.
I have yet to fight at those stations so this is my non biased opinion of the matter.
Would be great for me if I was defending a station and I would dock and repair, fill cap and shields and then undock and fight more but I would still think it was unbalanced since i know I might be on the other side someday.
So get real peaple.
Spawn of the Devil
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.13 05:33:00 -
[41]
Quote:
WRONG WRONG WRONG.....
Is a station only supposed to be a burden this way?
ps. Mr. mOo... you are complaining bout a tactic m0o used as long as it was possible... ironic isn't it???
As you should remember Evol use it against us in fountain so m0o isnt the only corp that did it, actually everyone did it and we didnt hear you complain then either, wait you probably did, thats why its not possible to dock and jump for a period of time 
Spawn of the Devil
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.02.13 05:48:00 -
[42]
you can win
you bring a superior forces (which all intelligent attackers do, m0o included) and destroy their station's shields when they dock.
How logical is it that a station with 1.875 million shield cant recharge a ship with not even 0.5% shields that's defending it or its cap ?
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.13 05:56:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Omniwar on 13/02/2004 05:58:19
Quote:
you can win
you bring a superior forces (which all intelligent attackers do, m0o included) and destroy their station's shields when they dock.
How logical is it that a station with 1.875 million shield cant recharge a ship with not even 0.5% shields that's defending it or its cap ?
As I see it not everyone docks at the same time because of concentrated fire, when he is at critical he docks, next target gets critial he docks, the guy who docked first undocks and so on and so forth.
That means the attackers have almost no way of winning since the defenders dont die.
That means that alliances who have hundreds of players in then and some over one thousand will never ever die or loose a battle over a station.
Thats not balanced, come and fight us if we bother to hold a station someday and even if you have multiple our numbers we wont loose a single ship because we will just dock and undock.
Now for a smaller force to attack would only result in one way, either run out of ammo, warp out because they get bored, or just die, and all that without a single ship lost on the defending side since they just dock and undock.
And remember kids, not everyone docks at the same time so it is not possible to gank the station and take it
and note that I havent fought around those stations so I dont know how it was in TWD¦s fight so it is not me whining about not being able to kill someone
Spawn of the Devil
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2004.02.13 06:03:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Muaddid on 13/02/2004 06:07:16
simple, you then concentrate your fire on the station and target jam the defenders... I'll be glad when we can put sentry guns and Missile Turrets aroudn my station, but until then there needs to be an advantage when defending a station. Its for a good reason that in every game the defender always has an advantage on the attacker... the attacker picks the time of the attack, he has the advantage there so defenders needs one from the start to use.
Of course m0o doesntt hold stations they capture, its simply because there is no advantage in doing so, recharging your cap and shields sounds like a good one to me (dont forget that it takes a while to load the scene when you undock in the middle of a fight)
PS: I think he was whining about me docking btw, which was obviously the best tactic when 4 tempest and some other BSs of all sorts started firing at me
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.13 06:33:00 -
[45]
Hehe I said it was a tactic I would use if I was in that situation so you are forgiven.
Spawn of the Devil
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Alynthir
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Posted - 2004.02.13 08:28:00 -
[46]
Want to take a station?
1.) Bring a force superior to the one defending. It doesn't matter if you kill the defenders or they all dock. Someone docked? Good! Now you can start working on the station's shields again!
2.) Knock the station's shields down. Dock and claim the station.
3.) Defend your claim.
That's it.
Just to toss a bone out there, it is my opinion that the days of people like m0o rampaging through an alliance will most likely come to a halt once Shiva hits. When SA or CA or FA wants you to stay out of an area, or to defend a station, chances are that the entire alliance will be dropping sentry guns, mines and God only know what other goodies around thier property. I can easily see a corp not building some battleships so they can place a couple dozen sentry guns around one of thier stations / structures.
But back to the thread...
It should be hard to take one of these stations away. It should take a major effort to drive off the defenders and claim the place. The defenders should always have the advantage because it's thier damn station!
This is one of the perks that comes from being part of a large corp/alliance: that the local thugs can't kill you outside your own house. You should have the option to run inside, catch your breath and call your buddies to help drive off the madmen on your lawn! 
_____
CLS Civil Affairs Bureau
"Permanent = Today's Plan."
Training: Noob Instructor Level 5  |
Varnok Kolartii
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Posted - 2004.02.13 08:44:00 -
[47]
There has to be some advantage to owning a station or there is no point.
The attacker knows the defenders position and choses the time of attack - fine, that's their edge. Smart attackers would know approx what type of force they are against.
The defender is required to stay in the area to defend the POS all the time since attacks can come at any time. However, they should be able to be "dug in" and have an advantage in the battle. Docking to wait for reinforcement is a pretty good strat after engaging in an opening salvo to get the feel for the attackers.
If attackers are coming to a POS with insufficent force... they shouldn't be able to do anything. There are parralels in all combat.
Attackers come with knives to attack peasants outside a castle. The peasant run away, defending as best they can till the get in the castle and they close the doors and ignore. Knives can't hurt castles.
Attackers come with small arms to attack outnumbered soldiers at a base. The soldiers do a fighting retreat to their fortified bunker, trying to thin the attackers numbers some. Small arms can't hurt a fortified bunker.
See the pattern?
Ships come to a POS to attack the outnumbered defenders - defenders move towards THEIR station trying to take out the advance scouts before they are overwhelmed. They arrive at the station .. and oops, they can't dock. This doesn't make sense.
The defenders should be able to undock and redock frequently to take pot shots at enemy. Anything but a BS would have to redock before shooting to avoid dmg. This is the equivalent of throwing rocks over the castle walls, or shooting thru a bunker gunslot. Should the peasent or soldier be ejected from THEIR base immediatly for 2 minutes after firing from a window?
If the stations instant repair/recharges shields .. under the current rules that is a game bug and should be addressed separately.
For whoever said people could redock and undock in a cycle and keep fighting forever:
Assume all ships are equal.
5 attackers vs 10 defenders. Doesn't matter what happens here .. Cycle docking or just a slug fest, defenders win.
Even battle (10 vs 10) Anyone's game in a slug fest. Cycle docking (1 defender out) - 10 ships shoot 1. He docks after 2 volleys and it repeats. With a ROF of 15 secs the first ship is out again in 5 min. Each defender has taken 20 shots into them over 30 secs and at most ONE attacker has taken the same 20 shots over 5 minutes. Only 3 things can happen here.
1 - Stalemate (neither can be hurt till one runs outta ammo)
2 - Defenders start getting hulled eventually.
3 - Attackers are winning but run out of ammo.
If the attackers outnumber the defenders ... then "Duh".
As for the original posted question:
If someone places their entire fleet around a station and gets in trouble and is forced to dock. They ARE losing that station, what they were there to protect in the first place.
http://home.no.net/thuggie/varnok.jpg |
Cougaress
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Posted - 2004.02.13 10:06:00 -
[48]
I suggest that ships loose whatever shield they have when they dock (as a ship with active shields play havoc with internal station systems).
A ship that undocks should do so without shields and would have to buildup using normal shieldrecharge and/or using shieldboosters.
/Coug |
Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2004.02.13 13:11:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 13/02/2004 13:12:15
Quote:
I suggest that ships loose whatever shield they have when they dock (as a ship with active shields play havoc with internal station systems).
A ship that undocks should do so without shields and would have to buildup using normal shieldrecharge and/or using shieldboosters.
/Coug
Now that is the worst idea I have heard yet. The runner up is the main post. Give me a break... this isn't quake 3 where you can enter someones house and take the flag and run back... bring a force that is capable of taking a station... organize a squad that is capable of doing so... then execute your plan. Simple as that. If they have a force that is using tactics against you... regroup... send scouts to find a week point then attack in even greater numbers with a different, read more optimized, set of ships and modules.
Don't come to the forum and blast senseless rubbish because you couldn't say in local to Tyrell, "All your base are belong to us!"
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Mitram
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Posted - 2004.02.13 13:26:00 -
[50]
Just one thought:
A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking.
My suggestion for that is:
As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows:
- 8 shield transfer array's.
- x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier
- shield hardener (em, thermal)
- 7 cap relays.
The procedure would be:
- Undock
- activate shieldhardener
- target station
- activate all shield transfer arrays.
- if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock
- repeat with the first step.
I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die.
So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.13 13:31:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 13:32:40
Quote:
Just one thought:
A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking.
My suggestion for that is:
As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows:
- 8 shield transfer array's.
- x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier
- shield hardener (em, thermal)
- 7 cap relays.
The procedure would be:
- Undock
- activate shieldhardener
- target station
- activate all shield transfer arrays.
- if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock
- repeat with the first step.
I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die.
So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken.
They can still do this anyway - you are only prevented from docking if you commit an aggressive act.
Transferring shields isn't an aggressive act.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Hanns
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Posted - 2004.02.13 14:40:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Hanns on 13/02/2004 14:46:02
I agree, you should be able to dock at your own station whenever you want, but people are EXPLOITING THIS!! by docking, undocking, docking undock, 12 times for full cap and sheilds, while the attackers are struggling to keep up with your antics!
All you people crying in here, are the type of people who want to run away, when the fight is not going your way, or want to dock and use this EXPLOIT to get full cap and sheilds!
Get over it, and play the game properly, the devs did not intend for you to be "healed" when u dock, and be able to come back into the fight fresh!
Ok simple solution, let the chickens dock whenever they want, jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge!
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2004.02.13 15:37:00 -
[53]
Though Lickspittle reaction to a fix is a bit overrated, I do think the claim: "There has to be some advantage to owning a station or there is no point." while referring to the shield/cap recharge is a bit of a moot point.
Owning it already gives you an advantage... you have a moderately secure depot where first there was nothing. Heck, don't some of those stations have a Refitter? Sounds like plenty advantage over not owning a station to me.
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Raid
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Posted - 2004.02.13 16:01:00 -
[54]
Quote:
jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge!
And this is EXACTLY what they should be doing. remove the cap shield rechard or move the regeneration time up. The most complaints in here are not about players being able to dock at their own station its that when they dock they get fiull shields and cap. FIX that instead of nerfing POS!
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Joviah
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Posted - 2004.02.13 17:52:00 -
[55]
Quote:
Quote:
jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge!
And this is EXACTLY what they should be doing. remove the cap shield rechard or move the regeneration time up. The most complaints in here are not about players being able to dock at their own station its that when they dock they get fiull shields and cap. FIX that instead of nerfing POS!
This would be the proper solution to a problem such as this, IMHO.
Joviah
Director, Cirrius Technologies
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Drutort
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Posted - 2004.02.13 17:59:00 -
[56]
Quote:
but it certainly screws up the PvP
LOL that is the advantage and disadvantage of having a station and fighting ppl vs who have one...
lol what did you think? you cant go into your own house that you controL? that would be dumb
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:09:00 -
[57]
Quote:
Docking aggression restrictions will be put back in place for those that belong to the corporation that currently owns the station.
Will aim for it coming out in a hotfix tomorrow.
WTF is that? you telling me the stations that we are in control will not let us dock to our own station?
dude what logic is that? what is the freaken point then? nobody will fight we will just stay in teh freaken station, and not bother at all
if this goes on to POS then you can say cancel to my account, i will not play some half-logic based game for share fairness which handicaps those who have been working and saving up from the start of the GAME JUST SO THAT ITS FAIR??? IN PVP POINT OF VIEW???
WTF IS POINT IN HAVING THE BATTLE BE ON YOUR OWN HOME LAND IF YOU CANT USE IT IN BATTLE? NO HOME COURT ADVANTAGE?
If the above isnÆt the case then I will apologies for my behavior but if it is, then im very pi$$ed
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Drutort
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:20:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Just one thought:
A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking.
My suggestion for that is:
As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows:
- 8 shield transfer array's.
- x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier
- shield hardener (em, thermal)
- 7 cap relays.
The procedure would be:
- Undock
- activate shieldhardener
- target station
- activate all shield transfer arrays.
- if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock
- repeat with the first step.
I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die.
So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken.
WRONG first of all, you eat more cap i think then you boost sheilds!! 2nd OF ALL, takes time to LOCK and transfer and time to DOCK, you cant transfer sheilds and boost your own!! DID YOU EVEN RUN THAT SET UP? YOU HAVE NO FREAKEN CPU TO DO THAT AND YOUR CAP DIES IN 2-4 cycles!! and that is only enough to cover few SHOTS from 1 BS
get your facts right, and go try it out frist before coming up with stupid things that only work on paper
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Yggdrassil
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Posted - 2004.02.13 20:56:00 -
[59]
First: I haven't fought at any POS yet - neither as attacker or defender.
But - the attacker will ALWAYS get to choose time of attack. They can scout the system with the station, see what forces the defenders has there, and attack at a time when the defenders are weak.
If the defenders get the option to dock at their own station during battle, could give them an advantage that would negotiate that advantage.
But: POS should recharge shields/cap slower than other stations - maybe at twice the rate of the players regular recharge rate... Actually - that change could be done on all stations to make it more easy to implement.
Yggdrassil
Yggdrassil |
Mitram
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Posted - 2004.02.14 02:08:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 13:32:40
Quote:
Just one thought:
A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking.
My suggestion for that is:
As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows:
- 8 shield transfer array's.
- x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier
- shield hardener (em, thermal)
- 7 cap relays.
The procedure would be:
- Undock
- activate shieldhardener
- target station
- activate all shield transfer arrays.
- if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock
- repeat with the first step.
I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die.
So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken.
They can still do this anyway - you are only prevented from docking if you commit an aggressive act.
Transferring shields isn't an aggressive act.
My point is that with this instant cap/shield recharge people are EXPLOITING. This must be fixed by CCP.
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