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TWD	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:16:00 - [1] last night when we were fighting people outside a player owned station, some of them just docked when they couldnt get out and were heavily damaged. is this intended or a bug? ppl can just place their entire force around a station, and when they are in trouble.. they can just dock... isnt that a bit stupid ?
Wild Rho	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:25:00 - [2] Well when they dock you can start firing on the station tp lower its sheilds and try to capture it. It may take longer but sooner or later they will have to come out and fight you or lose the station to you. And when one of the launches you can just pick them apart. Either way they end up trapping themselves. I have the body of a supermodel. I just can't remember where I left it...
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:27:00 - [3] Quote: last night when we were fighting people outside a player owned station, some of them just docked when they couldnt get out and were heavily damaged. is this intended or a bug? ppl can just place their entire force around a station, and when they are in trouble.. they can just dock... isnt that a bit stupid ? Think about it this way... The corporation that owns the station actually OWNS the station. In that regard it only makes sense that aggression does not apply to those corp members fighting to protect that station. What's the guy at the shipdock gonna do -- tell me to go away? The only reason he has a job (in an RP sense) is because my corp hired him to perform a function (tow my ship into dock when I request it). heh heh it makes perfect sense. How can I be deemed a threat to my own assets? Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:27:00 - [4] or even better.. dock, undock and get full shields and cap !
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:29:00 - [5] but it certainly screws up the PvP
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:37:00 - [6] heh depends on which side you're on I guess. The corporations that have worked to acquire and defend those stations should be able to use every asset at their disposal -- sort of a perk of the job. I can understand what you're saying though, it is weird. Rules of PvP combat will be different around POS than NPC stations, especially when other modular components of stations get worked into EVE. (Warp Disruption Modules, Force Field Emitters, Sentry Guns, etc...) Expect a corporation that can afford to do so to fight tooth and nail to protect their assets. You may find that certain corporations you haven't had problems with in the past fight all the harder, because you've backed them into a corner when you're attacking their stations. :) Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:53:00 - [7] Can't see the problem - if you're keeping them docked you can happily start pounding away at the station anyway and take it over. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.11 16:03:00 - [8] Good point Josh. Another point to take into account is that there are NO repair facilities in any POS currently available. Therefore any damage taken before docking will still be there after undocking, regardless of the circumstances. Now, the corporation may, and probably will, have armor and hull repair modules located at the station for employee use (assuming they've gotten a chance to dig in, which I seriously doubt the vast majority have as of yet.) But, armor and hull repair modules have little use in a fight to defend a station, especially if the aggressor forces are massive enough to overcome the defensive forces AND take on the shields of the station in any sane amount of time. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Shia Dai	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:07:00 - [9] you don't get full shields and cap by docking and undocking . . . a couple patches ago (i think with castor) the system started remembering your shield and capacitor states when you dock and it continues to recharge at the regular rate.
Teelmaster	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:13:00 - [10] What really ****es me off is the fact that you can't boot out the offices once you take a station, and what is even annoying.....YOU CANT KICK OUT ANYONE THAT IS DOCKED!!! Ok, if we own a station.....shouldnt it be in our full control and we can kick out those that shouldnt be there?

Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:44:00 - [11] Another good point Teelmaster -- Offices should be able to be either irradicated in the station, or at least the contents and everything "confiscated." Of course, it doesn't make much of a difference as it's only a matter of time. If you take the public availability of an office away, the corporation purchasing it shouldn't be able to re-rent. If they can (which we won't know for roughly... 27-28 days now) then we indeed have a serious problem. One thing to note, you can set the standings so that people either can't dock, or make it extremely expensive to dock. Even at 0.10ISK/m3 of a ship, the cost to dock a battleship is something around the area of 100-150k ISK. Sucks if you've forgotten to grab something and need to redock (and the station is not under your ownership.) Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:46:00 - [12] I just tested that docking, undocking thing and I still get full shields/cap.. ah well it just sucks a bit to see people be almost totally safe when they engage fighting
Zeus	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:59:00 - [13] Theres ment to be a advantage to it being your station, just take it off them and dont let them dock again. otherwise STOP WHINEING
Jara	Posted - 2004.02.11 22:41:00 - [14] So what you're saying is that in the interest of fairness, and overwhelming force (POS + ships owning the POS) should have some sort of handicap? Hmm, sounds good to me. I guess in the interests of fairness that the same restrictions be applied to a large fleet of pirates camping at various locations in the PF/FD systems; I guess it's best to be consistent.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.12 09:55:00 - [15] That's wierd, TWD. I just tested the shields/cap recharging when docked and only my cap got fully recharged. My shields were still down. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
SLIM	Posted - 2004.02.12 11:00:00 - [16] Quote: That's wierd, TWD. I just tested the shields/cap recharging when docked and only my cap got fully recharged. My shields were still down. Hit shield boost once when you undock, should zip right up to full, no matter how far you were down when you docked. ---------------------------
Silverlancer	Posted - 2004.02.12 11:37:00 - [17] Quote: The Traumark Installation The Traumark Installation represents the proudest moment in the history of the Tash-Murkon family - a massive fortress guarding the southern space territories of the vastly rich royal family. But that moment came and went when the fortress, once thought to be impregnable, fell into the hands of Sansha's Nation. All efforts to retake the installation have failed and today it stands as a thorn in the side of the proud, but humbled, Tash-Murkons. Stations are very hard to take back. Read the above.
lickspittle	Posted - 2004.02.12 13:55:00 - [18] Docking aggression restrictions will be put back in place for those that belong to the corporation that currently owns the station. Will aim for it coming out in a hotfix tomorrow. -- Richard CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion.
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.12 14:17:00 - [19] I really don't think that makes any sense LickSpittle, but thanks for letting us know. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Alynthir	Posted - 2004.02.12 14:21:00 - [20] Quote: Docking aggression restrictions will be put back in place for those that belong to the corporation that currently owns the station. Will aim for it coming out in a hotfix tomorrow. This is crap. If you OWN the station it refuses to let you dock while trying to defend it?! Yeah... that makes sense. _____ CLS Civil Affairs Bureau "Permanent = Today's Plan." Training: Noob Instructor Level 5

Saint Viper	Posted - 2004.02.12 14:40:00 - [21] What a crock of Sh*t I will have to have serious words with my CEO when his station manager refuses to let me dock while defending his backside. What is the point in POS??? There is no real advantage to having them if you cannot defend them properly.
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2004.02.12 14:53:00 - [22] At least this will mean that people will HAVE to defend their stations.
Saint Viper	Posted - 2004.02.12 14:55:00 - [23] They would have to anyway, otherwise the enemy will just start pounding the shields in a attempt to take it over.
foster	Posted - 2004.02.12 18:51:00 - [24] i think if it is your/your corps station it so let you dock regardless. make it so when you undock you don't have full shields and caps. you should have to wait for them to recharge
Uzael	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:06:00 - [25] Edited by: Uzael on 12/02/2004 20:07:13 It is PAINFULLY obvious that no one in CCP understands the concept of COMBAT. When nations (Or in our case Corporations) go to war and they fight you do not see the base tell its soliders "You can't come in because you just fought the enemy and thats BAD!" Tell us CCP what was the point to POS's? If not a base? And if said POS is a base that can be captured by enemy forces then why would it deny its Soliders access? Once again CCP you have failed to implement a solution that uses any sort of common sense. Instead someone cried and you ran in swinging the nerf bat blindly with out properly evaluating the situation. Did it ever cross your mind that the reason that person is crying is because they want an advantage over another player? What are you going to do when the players you placed at a disadvantage complain? You gonna make the stations stronger? Maybe give us the deployable sentries you keep crowing about all the time? No, you wont, you'll attempt another "Hot Fix" instead of a proper one. And more people will be angry. Its such a shame, such a grand game reduced to playing second fiddle, due to gross mismanagement of the game dynamics. -------------- UZAEL
Raid	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:19:00 - [26] Quote: Docking aggression restrictions will be put back in place for those that belong to the corporation that currently owns the station. Will aim for it coming out in a hotfix tomorrow. Lickspittle. What is the logic behind this move? If i own the property, why is the game restricting my access to it?
Thrak	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:32:00 - [27] Oh good. Obviously some n00b petitioned. This makes no sense and takes away any advantage the defenders had (and should have). What a load of bull****.
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:34:00 - [28] Edited by: Joviah on 12/02/2004 20:36:17 Quote: At least this will mean that people will HAVE to defend their stations. Yep, but if I'm not mistaken wasn't that the case all along? How does this change the fact that they have to be defended? If this is going to happen, where are my sentry guns? heh I'm laughing pretty hard here... It's becoming painfully obvious that my corporate employees would like to utilize our property in a way which makes sense. I can understand shields and cap not recharging when you dock at ANY station, regardless of ownership. THAT would make sense. This is sortof like my doorman, whom is in my employ, telling me he's not going to open the door for me because he doesn't agree with the way I handle myself outside of my home. If that were the case, my doorman would be fired on the spot and a new one would be hired -- without a second thought. Oh, and I should also be able to tell my doorman to let my buddies in whenever they do something "naughty" too. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Zeus	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:34:00 - [29] There is no point to this hot fix, it should be open to you if you own it period. If a attacking force does not like it they should take the station and stop it otherwise its pointless. Unless your a carebear Pirate like TWD whine whine patch this tommorow, an you'll have alot of ****ed off people, more so than the ones annoyed they cant kill someone going to "there" station.
Uzael	Posted - 2004.02.12 20:39:00 - [30] (Ducks the NERF bat as it flys past on another round of game play mechanics destruction) -------------- UZAEL

Ronald Speirs	Posted - 2004.02.12 21:06:00 - [31] This is such crap! Some little whiny ***** decides to complain that "Wah! I can't take the station from them easy! Wah!" Stations belong to the corps that hold them. Meaning that THEY should get to decide to docks and doesn't dock. We already get to decide in non-combat situations. CCP-put away the nerf club, and actually LET a corporation MEAN somehting in this game, instead of just a common chat room. NOOBS-Shut up and learn to play the game. This isn't an exploit, nor is it unfair. POS have been fought for and won, and to the victor go the spoils.
Faramir	Posted - 2004.02.12 21:44:00 - [32] WRONG WRONG WRONG..... Is a station only supposed to be a burden this way? ps. Mr. mOo... you are complaining bout a tactic m0o used as long as it was possible... ironic isn't it???
Doc Brown	Posted - 2004.02.12 21:45:00 - [33] Edited by: Doc Brown on 12/02/2004 22:03:29 Edited by: Doc Brown on 12/02/2004 21:47:31 Quote: POS have been fought for and won, and to the victor go the spoils. Exactly. Not to mention that there is an issue with this change already!!!!: If an attacking fleet takes over a station, they will get to dock and get their cap recharged for free. The defenders will be doubly screwed as they will likely be unable to dock and the likly counter-attack fleet will have to fight a bunch of fresh ships (instead of a hostile fleet that won the station but needs to recover). Makes holding fleets in reserve next to worthless. _________________________________________________ There are no bad ideas, only bad implementations.
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.12 22:00:00 - [34] I agree that the defenders should have an advantage, but more in the form of sentryguns/warp disruptor fields etc
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.12 22:09:00 - [35] As far as I know, there's nothing that will prevent an aggressor from placing a warp inhibitor around a station. No, this is a really nonsensical change. What's the point of having a POS if I don't actually CONTROL how it operates? I mean come on people let's get real, if a station is owned by Tyrell, or any other corporation for that matter, there should be no restrictions on when a player of the owning corporation docks. Furthermore, there should be no restrictions placed on corporations with good standings. In fact, I would even go so far as to say that the players (owners) themselves should actually be able to set how long that aggression time lasts for based on standings with the owning corporation, just like everything else in that station. Just my 2 ISK... which by now adds up to about 10 ISK in this thread. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Xtreem	Posted - 2004.02.12 23:05:00 - [36] hmm i dont see the logic of not letting ur own forces recarge, re eqip (ammo etc) in there own base.... its just not a done thing, films, books, tv progs, they all use a base, to re fuel, re eqip, what if u run outta ammo in a big battle? u cant even dock to get more... i for one am not going to bother with these POS (double meaning anyone lol) ill wait
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.02.13 03:35:00 - [37] Edited by: j0sephine on 13/02/2004 03:37:30 ... Isn't the aggression timer something like 30-60 seconds? So you'll have to stop shooting a bit in advance if you notice your damage is getting to the point you might need to dock soon... is it seriously worth to whine over it so much? (not like it really helps much those who attack the station, either... but adds a requirement to plan a little ahead which is quite nice imo)
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.13 04:30:00 - [38] After about 30-60 seconds, you may as well clone hop. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Muaddid	Posted - 2004.02.13 05:11:00 - [39] wtf ?? why own a station now if you dont have any advantage in defending it ? obviously ppl attacking will attack with superior amount of people as they know where to attack, so you just screw them more by making them unable to use the station to protect the station ?? Its already easy enough to destroy a station's shield from 10-15 enemies, you make it harder to defend it ?? "You cannot dock at this station as you are defending it" wow that makes sense for sure ! One would hope a station with 1 875 000 shields can afford to refill a ship with 4 000 shields and some energy ! On vacations (need a new sig too)
Omniwar	Posted - 2004.02.13 05:31:00 - [40] Edited by: Omniwar on 13/02/2004 05:34:29 So most peaple think it is ok if the defending force NEVER EVER takes armor damage because they will just dock when they are low on shields ? Come on peaple, that is most definetly not what it was intended for since that means the attacking force has no means whatsoever to win the fight. For those who have posted the most against those changes, look at it from the other side, if you were to attack a station you cant win and then your tone would change a bit I bet. I have yet to fight at those stations so this is my non biased opinion of the matter. Would be great for me if I was defending a station and I would dock and repair, fill cap and shields and then undock and fight more but I would still think it was unbalanced since i know I might be on the other side someday. So get real peaple. *Spawn of the Devil*

Omniwar	Posted - 2004.02.13 05:33:00 - [41] Quote: WRONG WRONG WRONG..... Is a station only supposed to be a burden this way? ps. Mr. mOo... you are complaining bout a tactic m0o used as long as it was possible... ironic isn't it??? As you should remember Evol use it against us in fountain so m0o isnt the only corp that did it, actually everyone did it and we didnt hear you complain then either, wait you probably did, thats why its not possible to dock and jump for a period of time *Spawn of the Devil*
Muaddid	Posted - 2004.02.13 05:48:00 - [42] you can win you bring a superior forces (which all intelligent attackers do, m0o included) and destroy their station's shields when they dock. How logical is it that a station with 1.875 million shield cant recharge a ship with not even 0.5% shields that's defending it or its cap ? On vacations (need a new sig too)
Omniwar	Posted - 2004.02.13 05:56:00 - [43] Edited by: Omniwar on 13/02/2004 05:58:19 Quote: you can win you bring a superior forces (which all intelligent attackers do, m0o included) and destroy their station's shields when they dock. How logical is it that a station with 1.875 million shield cant recharge a ship with not even 0.5% shields that's defending it or its cap ? As I see it not everyone docks at the same time because of concentrated fire, when he is at critical he docks, next target gets critial he docks, the guy who docked first undocks and so on and so forth. That means the attackers have almost no way of winning since the defenders dont die. That means that alliances who have hundreds of players in then and some over one thousand will never ever die or loose a battle over a station. Thats not balanced, come and fight us if we bother to hold a station someday and even if you have multiple our numbers we wont loose a single ship because we will just dock and undock. Now for a smaller force to attack would only result in one way, either run out of ammo, warp out because they get bored, or just die, and all that without a single ship lost on the defending side since they just dock and undock. And remember kids, not everyone docks at the same time so it is not possible to gank the station and take it and note that I havent fought around those stations so I dont know how it was in TWD¦s fight so it is not me whining about not being able to kill someone *Spawn of the Devil*
Muaddid	Posted - 2004.02.13 06:03:00 - [44] Edited by: Muaddid on 13/02/2004 06:07:16 simple, you then concentrate your fire on the station and target jam the defenders... I'll be glad when we can put sentry guns and Missile Turrets aroudn my station, but until then there needs to be an advantage when defending a station. Its for a good reason that in every game the defender always has an advantage on the attacker... the attacker picks the time of the attack, he has the advantage there so defenders needs one from the start to use. Of course m0o doesntt hold stations they capture, its simply because there is no advantage in doing so, recharging your cap and shields sounds like a good one to me (dont forget that it takes a while to load the scene when you undock in the middle of a fight) PS: I think he was whining about me docking btw, which was obviously the best tactic when 4 tempest and some other BSs of all sorts started firing at me On vacations (need a new sig too)
Omniwar	Posted - 2004.02.13 06:33:00 - [45] Hehe I said it was a tactic I would use if I was in that situation so you are forgiven. *Spawn of the Devil*
Alynthir	Posted - 2004.02.13 08:28:00 - [46] Want to take a station? 1.) Bring a force superior to the one defending. It doesn't matter if you kill the defenders or they all dock. Someone docked? Good! Now you can start working on the station's shields again! 2.) Knock the station's shields down. Dock and claim the station. 3.) Defend your claim. That's it. Just to toss a bone out there, it is my opinion that the days of people like m0o rampaging through an alliance will most likely come to a halt once Shiva hits. When SA or CA or FA wants you to stay out of an area, or to defend a station, chances are that the entire alliance will be dropping sentry guns, mines and God only know what other goodies around thier property. I can easily see a corp not building some battleships so they can place a couple dozen sentry guns around one of thier stations / structures. But back to the thread... It should be hard to take one of these stations away. It should take a major effort to drive off the defenders and claim the place. The defenders should always have the advantage because it's thier damn station! This is one of the perks that comes from being part of a large corp/alliance: that the local thugs can't kill you outside your own house. You should have the option to run inside, catch your breath and call your buddies to help drive off the madmen on your lawn! _____ CLS Civil Affairs Bureau "Permanent = Today's Plan." Training: Noob Instructor Level 5
Varnok Kolartii	Posted - 2004.02.13 08:44:00 - [47] There has to be some advantage to owning a station or there is no point. The attacker knows the defenders position and choses the time of attack - fine, that's their edge. Smart attackers would know approx what type of force they are against. The defender is required to stay in the area to defend the POS all the time since attacks can come at any time. However, they should be able to be "dug in" and have an advantage in the battle. Docking to wait for reinforcement is a pretty good strat after engaging in an opening salvo to get the feel for the attackers. If attackers are coming to a POS with insufficent force... they shouldn't be able to do anything. There are parralels in all combat. Attackers come with knives to attack peasants outside a castle. The peasant run away, defending as best they can till the get in the castle and they close the doors and ignore. Knives can't hurt castles. Attackers come with small arms to attack outnumbered soldiers at a base. The soldiers do a fighting retreat to their fortified bunker, trying to thin the attackers numbers some. Small arms can't hurt a fortified bunker. See the pattern? Ships come to a POS to attack the outnumbered defenders - defenders move towards THEIR station trying to take out the advance scouts before they are overwhelmed. They arrive at the station .. and oops, they can't dock. This doesn't make sense. The defenders should be able to undock and redock frequently to take pot shots at enemy. Anything but a BS would have to redock before shooting to avoid dmg. This is the equivalent of throwing rocks over the castle walls, or shooting thru a bunker gunslot. Should the peasent or soldier be ejected from THEIR base immediatly for 2 minutes after firing from a window? If the stations instant repair/recharges shields .. under the current rules that is a game bug and should be addressed separately. For whoever said people could redock and undock in a cycle and keep fighting forever: Assume all ships are equal. 5 attackers vs 10 defenders. Doesn't matter what happens here .. Cycle docking or just a slug fest, defenders win. Even battle (10 vs 10) Anyone's game in a slug fest. Cycle docking (1 defender out) - 10 ships shoot 1. He docks after 2 volleys and it repeats. With a ROF of 15 secs the first ship is out again in 5 min. Each defender has taken 20 shots into them over 30 secs and at most ONE attacker has taken the same 20 shots over 5 minutes. Only 3 things can happen here. 1 - Stalemate (neither can be hurt till one runs outta ammo) 2 - Defenders start getting hulled eventually. 3 - Attackers are winning but run out of ammo. If the attackers outnumber the defenders ... then "Duh". As for the original posted question: If someone places their entire fleet around a station and gets in trouble and is forced to dock. They ARE losing that station, what they were there to protect in the first place. http://home.no.net/thuggie/varnok.jpg
Cougaress	Posted - 2004.02.13 10:06:00 - [48] I suggest that ships loose whatever shield they have when they dock (as a ship with active shields play havoc with internal station systems). A ship that undocks should do so without shields and would have to buildup using normal shieldrecharge and/or using shieldboosters. /Coug
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2004.02.13 13:11:00 - [49] Edited by: Kaylon Syi on 13/02/2004 13:12:15 Quote: I suggest that ships loose whatever shield they have when they dock (as a ship with active shields play havoc with internal station systems). A ship that undocks should do so without shields and would have to buildup using normal shieldrecharge and/or using shieldboosters. /Coug Now that is the worst idea I have heard yet. The runner up is the main post. Give me a break... this isn't quake 3 where you can enter someones house and take the flag and run back... bring a force that is capable of taking a station... organize a squad that is capable of doing so... then execute your plan. Simple as that. If they have a force that is using tactics against you... regroup... send scouts to find a week point then attack in even greater numbers with a different, read more optimized, set of ships and modules. Don't come to the forum and blast senseless rubbish because you couldn't say in local to Tyrell, "All your base are belong to us!"
Mitram	Posted - 2004.02.13 13:26:00 - [50] Just one thought: A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking. My suggestion for that is: As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows: - 8 shield transfer array's. - x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier - shield hardener (em, thermal) - 7 cap relays. The procedure would be: - Undock - activate shieldhardener - target station - activate all shield transfer arrays. - if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock - repeat with the first step. I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die. So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken.

Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.13 13:31:00 - [51] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 13:32:40 Quote: Just one thought: A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking. My suggestion for that is: As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows: - 8 shield transfer array's. - x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier - shield hardener (em, thermal) - 7 cap relays. The procedure would be: - Undock - activate shieldhardener - target station - activate all shield transfer arrays. - if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock - repeat with the first step. I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die. So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken. They can still do this anyway - you are only prevented from docking if you commit an aggressive act. Transferring shields isn't an aggressive act. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Hanns	Posted - 2004.02.13 14:40:00 - [52] Edited by: Hanns on 13/02/2004 14:46:02 I agree, you should be able to dock at your own station whenever you want, but people are EXPLOITING THIS!! by docking, undocking, docking undock, 12 times for full cap and sheilds, while the attackers are struggling to keep up with your antics! All you people crying in here, are the type of people who want to run away, when the fight is not going your way, or want to dock and use this EXPLOIT to get full cap and sheilds! Get over it, and play the game properly, the devs did not intend for you to be "healed" when u dock, and be able to come back into the fight fresh! Ok simple solution, let the chickens dock whenever they want, jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge!
Chai N'Dorr	Posted - 2004.02.13 15:37:00 - [53] Though Lickspittle reaction to a fix is a bit overrated, I do think the claim: "There has to be some advantage to owning a station or there is no point." while referring to the shield/cap recharge is a bit of a moot point. Owning it already gives you an advantage... you have a moderately secure depot where first there was nothing. Heck, don't some of those stations have a Refitter? Sounds like plenty advantage over not owning a station to me.
Raid	Posted - 2004.02.13 16:01:00 - [54] Quote: jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge! And this is EXACTLY what they should be doing. remove the cap shield rechard or move the regeneration time up. The most complaints in here are not about players being able to dock at their own station its that when they dock they get fiull shields and cap. FIX that instead of nerfing POS!
Joviah	Posted - 2004.02.13 17:52:00 - [55] Quote: Quote: jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge! And this is EXACTLY what they should be doing. remove the cap shield rechard or move the regeneration time up. The most complaints in here are not about players being able to dock at their own station its that when they dock they get fiull shields and cap. FIX that instead of nerfing POS! This would be the proper solution to a problem such as this, IMHO. Joviah Director, Cirrius Technologies
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.13 17:59:00 - [56] Quote: but it certainly screws up the PvP LOL that is the advantage and disadvantage of having a station and fighting ppl vs who have one... lol what did you think? you cant go into your own house that you controL? that would be dumb support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.13 18:09:00 - [57] Quote: Docking aggression restrictions will be put back in place for those that belong to the corporation that currently owns the station. Will aim for it coming out in a hotfix tomorrow. WTF is that? you telling me the stations that we are in control will not let us dock to our own station? dude what logic is that? what is the freaken point then? nobody will fight we will just stay in teh freaken station, and not bother at all if this goes on to POS then you can say cancel to my account, i will not play some half-logic based game for share fairness which handicaps those who have been working and saving up from the start of the GAME JUST SO THAT ITS FAIR??? IN PVP POINT OF VIEW??? WTF IS POINT IN HAVING THE BATTLE BE ON YOUR OWN HOME LAND IF YOU CANT USE IT IN BATTLE? NO HOME COURT ADVANTAGE? If the above isnÆt the case then I will apologies for my behavior but if it is, then im very pi$$ed support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.13 18:20:00 - [58] Quote: Just one thought: A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking. My suggestion for that is: As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows: - 8 shield transfer array's. - x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier - shield hardener (em, thermal) - 7 cap relays. The procedure would be: - Undock - activate shieldhardener - target station - activate all shield transfer arrays. - if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock - repeat with the first step. I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die. So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken. WRONG first of all, you eat more cap i think then you boost sheilds!! 2nd OF ALL, takes time to LOCK and transfer and time to DOCK, you cant transfer sheilds and boost your own!! DID YOU EVEN RUN THAT SET UP? YOU HAVE NO FREAKEN CPU TO DO THAT AND YOUR CAP DIES IN 2-4 cycles!! and that is only enough to cover few SHOTS from 1 BS get your facts right, and go try it out frist before coming up with stupid things that only work on paper support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Yggdrassil	Posted - 2004.02.13 20:56:00 - [59] First: I haven't fought at any POS yet - neither as attacker or defender. But - the attacker will ALWAYS get to choose time of attack. They can scout the system with the station, see what forces the defenders has there, and attack at a time when the defenders are weak. If the defenders get the option to dock at their own station during battle, could give them an advantage that would negotiate that advantage. But: POS should recharge shields/cap slower than other stations - maybe at twice the rate of the players regular recharge rate... Actually - that change could be done on all stations to make it more easy to implement. Yggdrassil Yggdrassil
Mitram	Posted - 2004.02.14 02:08:00 - [60] Quote: Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 13:32:40 Quote: Just one thought: A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking. My suggestion for that is: As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows: - 8 shield transfer array's. - x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier - shield hardener (em, thermal) - 7 cap relays. The procedure would be: - Undock - activate shieldhardener - target station - activate all shield transfer arrays. - if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock - repeat with the first step. I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die. So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken. They can still do this anyway - you are only prevented from docking if you commit an aggressive act. Transferring shields isn't an aggressive act. My point is that with this instant cap/shield recharge people are EXPLOITING. This must be fixed by CCP.

Talon SilverHawk	Posted - 2004.02.14 11:01:00 - [61] Quote: Quote: Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 13/02/2004 13:32:40 Quote: Just one thought: A station defense fleet could be specificly setup to use/abuse the automatic cap/shield recharge on docking/undocking. My suggestion for that is: As many Apoc's as possible setup as follows: - 8 shield transfer array's. - x-large shieldbooster, shield amplifier - shield hardener (em, thermal) - 7 cap relays. The procedure would be: - Undock - activate shieldhardener - target station - activate all shield transfer arrays. - if your shields are down or your cap is gone, dock - repeat with the first step. I am quite sure that with this procedure the station shields will never die. So the only time the station could betaken is when all people defending the station log out. If the alliance has a 24/7 presents then the station will never be taken. They can still do this anyway - you are only prevented from docking if you commit an aggressive act. Transferring shields isn't an aggressive act. My point is that with this instant cap/shield recharge people are EXPLOITING. This must be fixed by CCP. Easy to change. Keep the ability to dock for players that own the station. But for player owned stations change the settings that shield and cap take as long to recharge docked as they do undocked. Tal What goes around comes around...
Ruffles	Posted - 2004.02.14 17:42:00 - [62] Quote: My point is that with this instant cap/shield recharge people are EXPLOITING. This must be fixed by CCP. You don't think its a massive advantage that the attackers have a tactical advantage over a ship undocking? Its rather easy meat. What is the advantage for defenders? No sentry guns, no ability to dock if they initiate aggression, etc?
XpoHoc	Posted - 2004.02.14 17:50:00 - [63] Resolution: If someones docks the shields of the station would be down to about 1/10 of its full strengh, makes sense, same thing happens when you eject from your ship. So docking would still safe the ship, but would increase the possibility that the station could be taken over in that process.
Minsc	Posted - 2004.02.14 19:01:00 - [64] So if a frigate docks at a POS, the stations shields go down to 1/10th, anybody else think that just doesn't make sense?
XpoHoc	Posted - 2004.02.14 19:35:00 - [65] Edited by: XpoHoc on 14/02/2004 20:53:22 Well actually it makes sense, because a shield is absorbing anything (heat, kinetic and explosive (which is kinetic+heat) energy) a ship is nothing but kinetic energy to a shield, so a shield needs to be lower to let a ship dock. Of course I know it needs tweaking as it could be exploitable. I hope you understood that I mean to lower the shields down only temporary.
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.14 19:54:00 - [66] lol that is a dumb idea... that can be exploited by someone, to just keep on docking and undocking, very dumb idea IMO I like the 1/2 the cap sheilds recharge and let the docking as it is, everything else can be exploited and is too complicated. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
XpoHoc	Posted - 2004.02.14 19:59:00 - [67] Quote: lol that is a dumb idea... that can be exploited by someone, to just keep on docking and undocking, very dumb idea IMO As the station owner can decide who is able to dock and who not, I don't see a benefit for someone doing it. The owner of the station would risk to lose control of it and any other corps would risk losing standing to the owners corp.
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.14 21:43:00 - [68] Quote: Quote: lol that is a dumb idea... that can be exploited by someone, to just keep on docking and undocking, very dumb idea IMO As the station owner can decide who is able to dock and who not, I don't see a benefit for someone doing it. The owner of the station would risk to lose control of it and any other corps would risk losing standing to the owners corp. that doesnt matter, what would happen if someone is from an alt corp? and does this? you wouldnt kow or have time to set the corp standing. and that might be too late as the other party would take over teh station already... as you can see there is a lot of room for exploiting this, thats why its a bad idea. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
XpoHoc	Posted - 2004.02.14 21:48:00 - [69] Quote: Of course I know it needs tweaking as it could be exploitable. :) The whole point why PPS are in game is to prepare Eve for POS stations. We entered beta phase for the Shiva patch, it's all about adjusting and testing now.
Dayon	Posted - 2004.02.23 14:03:00 - [70] Quote: Quote: jus tremove the cap and sheild recharge, make it take 10 minutes of docking time to recharge sheilds and cap! or just leave the default ships car and sheild recharge! And this is EXACTLY what they should be doing. remove the cap shield rechard or move the regeneration time up. The most complaints in here are not about players being able to dock at their own station its that when they dock they get fiull shields and cap. FIX that instead of nerfing POS! Totally right this is the way to go. But the problem is that you cant see how much you shield and cap is at while on the station? But even without the ability to see the status the best way to do it. Reflecting the people at the station trying to get you ship ready to fight.

Muaddid	Posted - 2004.02.23 15:21:00 - [71] Edited by: Muaddid on 23/02/2004 15:33:26 As of build 1391 ( read ) Docking after defending your station is impossible, and you do not gain back shields or cap. On TQ with the hotfix that was done, you currently can dock even if you shot someone (if your corporation owns the station), but you will not gain shields or cap by doing so, you will undock with the same shields/cap you docked with as they do not recharge while in station. The attacker on the other hand will warp to a moon, recharge its shields and cap for 10sec then warp back to the station to continue the attack. This is far from ideal, but its FAR better than on chaos. IMO, to balance things out, this is how it should work : 1) New option on docking modifiers : People set at (you decide at what) standing or more can dock at your station even if they just attacked someone. The corporation that owns the station is already set at +10 so they can always dock. 2) When you dock/undock you do not gain back your shields/cap - the station is not a shield generator (thats for another player-owned installation ). BUT when you dock, your shield and cap recharge still recharge like if you were outside, and 2 times faster than when you are undocked. 3) New thing for station defence - Station View. One would think that a station must have camera drones uh ? seeing how pods have one, such gigantic structure must have thousands... what for if not for us to see throught it ? Press the button and you load the station's outside view, with the station's shields showing instead of your ship's UI. You can do the usual things - look at, rotate, show info, (smack)talk on local but ofc you cant lock/aproach/warp (The view of this can also be set to be accessible by other corporations via standings). Results : Attackers(multiple corp or not) has the time and surprise advantage, they warp from where they want and warp to other locations in the system to recharge. Defenders(multiple corp or not - if their docking modifiers are set right) has the option to instantly dock in the station if things gets too hot, but they must wait a while for their shields to boost back up if they want to undock and fight again, Since you cannot use a shield booster while docked this is still much longer than if you were undocked, but better than it is now. This way BOTH the attacker and the defender have advantages which balances eachother. In the futur defenders will be able to put sentry guns to defend themself, but so will attackers to siege the station ! I would hope the station gains in shields by a 10x factor as well so fights for a station would last much longer, and strategy would be a bigger factor, not just come with 30 BS, blast it for 5mins and you are done . With longer battles, the attacker would be wise to isntall warp disruptor fields at gates to cut their enemy's supply (reinfocement) lines. Sentry guns around the station to siege the defenders. Shield generators nearby to recharge... It because much more than just a station, but a field for battles :) But since its more risk for the attackers, make it more rewarding as well ! Let us install new modules into the station ! Making the station more usefull for the owner with factories, refinery, medical and local market, and more juicy for the attackers to conquer ! On vacations (need a new sig too)
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.23 17:04:00 - [72] all this shows is CCP has no clue for the future of player owned stations... and you know what? if they screw up ppl will not forgive them as hole alliances will invest in something, and if they do not reimburse for something stupid or some bug... you can expect people to either protest or just quit the game. I will not play it any farther if the dreams from the start are messed up because of CCP. I will just leave regardless of how painful it would be because of the time invested into it and over all its great game. If ccp is fooling around with conquerable stations well, this might not be too bad but still **es off ppl, because there are those pvp players who would love to take advantage of every mistake that the devÆs or ccp make, for whatever reason. The point is, having a station should have an advantage, it doesnÆt make any sense at all for your OWN FREAKEN SHIP to NOT be able to regenerate shields at the SAME rate as if you were out side of the station!!! WERE IS THE LOGIC? I donÆt care about balance fact isà if you donÆt want instant shields cap, make it exactly the same as you were in space, there is no real hindrance on your ship that would not allow your cap/shields to regenerate inside the station. If they make it that your shields/cap do not regenerate inside a station, then what hell is the point in RUNNING to YOUR OWN STATION? I mean those ppl out side in space at least get to regenerate there shields while you DONÆT? pretty stupid isnÆt it. I also think a viewing ability would be nice feature, but I doubt this is even remotely on the DEVÆs minds. support Idea: QuickInfo** an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Conrad	Posted - 2004.02.23 18:23:00 - [73] Edited by: Conrad on 23/02/2004 18:47:19 Edited by: Conrad on 23/02/2004 18:37:43 After taking the time to read this thread here are my thoughts on both ends. It is obvious that defenders need a clear cut advantage to having a station. Not being allowed to dock seems more like a bandage solution than a real answer much like the magnetic field alignment from warping in. In regards to how this advantage be implemented here are my suggestions/ideas: There should be a GUI similar to fittings showing real time shield, armor, hull and cap HP and the recharge rates for cap and shield. Once you fit a module and activate it if needed it will work as if you were in space (like an armor repair taking cap and repariing like normal or a shield booster taking cap as well). In effect you would be repairing your ship in a station as you see fit and would take time but you would be under the full protection of being in a station. On an attackers view point they will have time to focus on the people not docked. They would be dealing with ships that undock as if those ships had warped away, repaired and reloaded however the defenders would have an advantage of repairing/re-equiping their ships when they dock, thus making it a bit harder to take a station. This works on a RP level and PVP level, and seems like it would be a nice new addition to the game since, as people pointed out PPS are a "beta" to Shiva. Seem reasonable and workable? Edited to clean up my post a bit
Harisdrop	Posted - 2004.02.23 20:06:00 - [74] This is the funniest thread ever. I would love some local chat logs please and video. It seems that the owner side is mad they cant run and hide. -------------------------- Garsh ma it soo cool killing people in there space thingies
Kaji	Posted - 2004.02.24 00:05:00 - [75] Maybe the amount of traffic for docking and undocking on the station could have a limit, something like: -Only one battleship can dock/undock per minute. -Only 2 cruisers can dock/undock per minute. -Only 5 frigates can dock/undock per minute. You can imagine the RP explanation for that. :) The defenders should have some tactical advantage too, maybe being on a field of influence of a station could give you a 25% cap recharge rate bonus. Just some ideas...
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.24 21:38:00 - [76] Quote: Maybe the amount of traffic for docking and undocking on the station could have a limit, something like: -Only one battleship can dock/undock per minute. -Only 2 cruisers can dock/undock per minute. -Only 5 frigates can dock/undock per minute. You can imagine the RP explanation for that. :) The defenders should have some tactical advantage too, maybe being on a field of influence of a station could give you a 25% cap recharge rate bonus. Just some ideas... well while were in nerfing mode... why not nerf warp too? and gang warp? lets say only 5 ships can warp in at same time to an area too... i mean that isnt fair now isnt it? how can everyone warp in same time if were going to start nerfing and limiting things, it just sounds stupid, how about we can only undock 2 ships or something like that too... make it real easy for those attacking as you could never leave the station since you would all die 1 by 1... there is no need to try and balance something that is fine, the only issue was that you couldnt see your cap/sheilds and they instant recharged, that was the main issue thats all... they just need to make it normal just like you would be in space, heck make it slower a bit but dont nerf it to hell. if other game mechanics dont have limits you will screw the balance, and give way too much advantage, you dont see that now because its not limited... just think ppl can log off/on warp in/out as many times as many ships as they want... your in a station you are already in a defensive mode, right now you have no idea or no way to view out side of station another disadvantage, and the stations can be taken over, meaning that you wouldnÆt be able to redock if that happens. how many more nerfs do you think the defending team needs? and i dont want to say it but its true, this favors a lot the pvp and the pirate players, as they dont really settle much in any given system/region. SIMPLE just make it so that shields/cap regen normal as if you were in space, that is the biggest issue here. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Muaddid	Posted - 2004.02.25 05:38:00 - [77] wish devs were as fast to read good ideas as they are to listen to the bad ones On vacations (need a new sig too)
csebal	Posted - 2004.02.25 12:48:00 - [78] Edited by: csebal on 25/02/2004 12:53:17 Remember OBE and all the other places, where people used stations to do hit & dock attacks against their attackers. You cant beat the one at the station, because he can always dock and undock with shields / cap fully charged. If its a problem for you, not to be able to dock, because you comitted an act of agression against someone else, then the devs should simply find another excuse, like: "Because of inteference caused by your recent weapon fire, the station operators cant get a lock on you with the tractor beam. Please stand by until your weapons cool down." Situation will stay the same of course, as it shuld. It was a balance change after all (the 2 minute docking limit after firing weapons), a much needed one. ------------- This post is nothing more than my personal opinion. It does not represent the official standpoint of Fountain Alliance, or the HUN Corporation in any way. -------------
Drutort	Posted - 2004.02.25 17:46:00 - [79] Quote: Edited by: csebal on 25/02/2004 12:53:17 Remember OBE and all the other places, where people used stations to do hit & dock attacks against their attackers. You cant beat the one at the station, because he can always dock and undock with shields / cap fully charged. If its a problem for you, not to be able to dock, because you comitted an act of agression against someone else, then the devs should simply find another excuse, like: "Because of inteference caused by your recent weapon fire, the station operators cant get a lock on you with the tractor beam. Please stand by until your weapons cool down." Situation will stay the same of course, as it shuld. It was a balance change after all (the 2 minute docking limit after firing weapons), a much needed one. NO I have better excuse I FOUGHT FOR STATION I WANT TO CONTROL THE DAMN THING, if not then what hell is the point of having it be conquerable if all you get is 1 slot that might or might not be importantà If the attacking force cant kill the ppl docking and undocking then they suck!@!@ Full shields/cap? We are talking here that you should have them recharge equal as they were in space, what hell is the issue there? Its FAIR GAME same for them same for you. What is the point of having your corp or whatever be on the conquerable station if you cant even dock on it when you attack someone, pretty lame if you ask me, its like you losing your keys or your own workers not letting you back in to your corp office because you hit some guy out side the office or something retarded like that, when you own the hole building. Im sick of making analogies, they all boil down to the same thing, and they show how foolish and stupid these nerfs are, when all that is needed is to make the cap/shields recharge same or less then you were in space SIMPLE PPL NOTHING ELSE. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog


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