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FeralShadow
CenGen Armament
45
   |
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
my only problem with the drake came with PVP. Able to go super fast, have a decent tank, and spit out decent damage over long distances. No other ship can do all that at the same time, not even Gallente (which are supposed to). It's like having your cake and eating it too. |
Soulpirate
State War Academy
Caldari State
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nerfs based on PvP butthurt that affect PvE always end poorly.
The Drake is a bread and butter boat for new players to survive
and get a foot-hold on some isk. Making the game harder and
take longer for a new player to get in to a comfortable spot
isk wise will lower the new player retention rate imo.
This whole nerf affects ALL the uses of the ship just because of
one current popular PvP use.
Nerfing is a good sign of lazy game management. |
Famble
Three's a Crowd
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:36:00 -
[33] - Quote
Soulpirate wrote:Nerfs based on PvP butthurt that affect PvE always end poorly.
The Drake is a bread and butter boat for new players to survive
and get a foot-hold on some isk. Making the game harder and
take longer for a new player to get in to a comfortable spot
isk wise will lower the new player retention rate imo.
This whole nerf affects ALL the uses of the ship just because of
one current popular PvP use.
Nerfing is a good sign of lazy game management.
I'm not convinced. From a PVE perspective (which is all I do and care about) the Drake takes a fraction of the time to train for when compared to the other battlecruisers and has a tank that rivals my missioning battleships. It's kind of insane near as I can tell.
Frankly it doesn't affect me one way or the other but in the interest of fairness it's totally out of whack what this ship can do considering the meager time investment necessary. Some posts earlier I took a brand new pilot (no training), two respected Battleclinic PVE fits, one for a T2 fitted Hurricane and one for a T2 fitted Drake. The T2 fitted Drake could be piloted from nothing in some fifty days. The Hurricane took over a month longer to train for. That's crazy!
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |
Soulpirate
State War Academy
Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:51:00 -
[34] - Quote
FeralShadow wrote:my only problem with the drake came with PVP. Able to go super fast, have a decent tank, and spit out decent damage over long distances. No other ship can do all that at the same time, not even Gallente (which are supposed to). It's like having your cake and eating it too.
Give me a break.
The Tengu does it all waaaay better than the Drake, but that's not
the issue here is it? It's not truely about what's better, or the Drake
being over-powered, it's about how often people see it in PvP.
If the Tengu and the Drake cost the same to fit, the Tengu would be
the ship getting the nerf, because none would use the Drake.
So, we will ruin a ship that has a good price/skill cost for newer players
just to help heal the PvP butthurt some people have. Meanwhile the
Tengu continues to coast through Carebear level 4's better than any other
ship, even the over-powered Drake. 
Yeah, none is flying the Nighthawk because the Drake is "too good at everything"
LOL
But really, the Nighthawk excuse is just that, an excuse. If they wanted more people
tp fly one, they would make it more attractive to ALL pilots rather than just nerfing
Drake pilots into another ship. Btw, this will only put more people in Tengus,
not Nighthawks because umm, well, the Tengu is better than it, AND the OP Drake.
The Drake is used for uses other than PvP more than it is used for PvP, nerfing it wil
hurt the newer PvE players while the PvP whiners find something else to maon
about.
Anyone claiming that it needs to be nerfed for any other reason than PvP is just
full of it and using excuses to make PvP easier for their chosen ship. |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
EVE Animal Control
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:01:00 -
[35] - Quote
Didn't read the whole thread so this may have already been said but, the proposed changes do NOT nerf the drake.
ROF bonus means more damage using all types of missiles which means the drake will deal more dps for PVP and PVE. What's one of minmatar's main strengths? Selectable damage type, coming to a drake near you.
The velocity bonus means more range, it already hits out to 70 km, what's that gonna be after the velocity bonus? You figure it out, pretty damn far no doubt.
"But my EHP is being nerfed". So what. Fit it appropriately as a long range dps ship and you won't need that EHP. Put some nano's/overdrives whatever on it and spew 100 percent em/thermal/kinetic/explosive damage on your target from at range.
For PVE, will it be able to passive shield tank lvl 4's, maybe not but you shouldn't be doing that in a drake anyways, and now, if you decide you need to use a drake for lvl 4's you'll finish them quicker due to selectable damage type, yay.
The only nerf this is bringing would be to brawler fit HAM drakes. However, I'm not even sure that counts. Yes you'll have less EHP but you'll be able to shoot the proper damage type therefore dealing more actual DPS in many situations. More gank less tank is a good thing IMO.
So all of us drake pilots should be for this change. If drake haters wanna call it a nerf, please let them. It'll be more fun when our drakes kill them still, despite being "nerfed".
/My thoughts while bored at work.
|
Riall
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:09:00 -
[36] - Quote
Don't nerf my Drake, my tanky missile Drake
I just don't think it'd understand.
And if you nerf my Drake, my tanky missile Drake,
It might blow up and foil this plan.
|
Soulpirate
State War Academy
Caldari State
71
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Rath Kelbore wrote:
The only nerf this is bringing would be to brawler fit HAM drakes. However, I'm not even sure that counts. Yes you'll have less EHP but you'll be able to shoot the proper damage type therefore dealing more actual DPS in many situations. More gank less tank is a good thing IMO.
You can already select the propper damage type, and it doesn't do more DPS. Removing te kinetic bonus wont
make the other damage types do more damage than they do now.
Rath Kelbore wrote:So all of us drake pilots should be for this change. If drake haters wanna call it a nerf, please let them. It'll be more fun when our drakes kill them still, despite being "nerfed".
You're assuming that they will actually offset the nerfs as they have suggested. Bet you
it ends up more nerf and less compesation. |
Texty
State War Academy
Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Soulpirate wrote:
You can already select the propper damage type, and it doesn't do more DPS. Removing te kinetic bonus wont
make the other damage types do more damage than they do now.
RoF bonus?
|
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
Dark Empire Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 20:01:00 -
[39] - Quote
CCP is starting down the slippery slope here. Nerf = Nerf = Nerf and so on
The Hurricane in mr potatoes guys analysis doesn't really argue anything other than training time. the dps of the Hurricane fit is considerably higher with a lower EHP when compared to the drake. what you could argue for is to bring the drake training times in par with the Hurricane if that is the basis of your argument.
Now they could make the drake a little less effective at close range but then that would present a problem to Heavy Assault fits.
players use different ships and fits for different reasons. i see Hurricanes more often then Drakes but no one makes a fuss about them.
If CCP nerfs the Drake it will be the beginning of an endless cycle of NERFS. |
Vigrioth Stoneclaw
Pillage and Plunder Salvage Co.
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 20:01:00 -
[40] - Quote
mkint wrote:"I want to keep my easy mode ship that requires no thought nor talent to fly!"
Drake sucks. People fly it because it's made for stupid people. Anyone defending it is revealing their intelligence.
Congratulations, you win the Shallow End of the Eve Pool Award for this thread! Good job, way to be simple minded! :)
Let me break this down as best as I can for the thread at large...
COMMUNITY: Fix Incursions, FW, Assault frigates and Botting!
CCP: Ok, I see, I see. Oh, I know, let's nerf the Drake!
SHALLOW THINKERS: Nerf the Drake? Brilliant! Hurray CCP!
DEEP THINKERS: Nerf the...wait, wha?
CCP: Aren't you happy now?
DEEP THINKERS: How does that solve the real problems plaguing this game?
CCP: Lookee here! *holds up wand with spinning wheels and bright lights* This is the visual representation of the Drake nerf! Isn't it awesome?
SHALLOW THINKERS: *mesmerized* Wow, it's better than I ever imagined...
DEEP THINKERS: Wait, no! How can this be a solution? We have bigger issues to worry about here than one ship!
SHALLOW THINKERS: Shut-up! Your dumb because you are opposing the nerf! You must be ridiculed and silenced!
DEEP THINKERS: It's spelled 'you're' with an apostrophe and an E at the end! We still want to know how this addresses problems that truly need to be fixed.
SHALLOW THINKERS: Shut-up noob! L2p!
DEEP THINKERS: Surely you aren't buying this...
SHALLOW THINKERS: DEATH TO DRAKES!
DEEP THINKERS: *fingers pinching the bridge of their noses* You have got to be kidding me, you really don't get it do you?
SHALLOW THINKERS: Umad bro? Lulz!
CCP: We knew you guys would approve! =)
I think that just about sums it up. |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
EVE Animal Control
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 20:22:00 -
[41] - Quote
Soulpirate wrote:Rath Kelbore wrote:
The only nerf this is bringing would be to brawler fit HAM drakes. However, I'm not even sure that counts. Yes you'll have less EHP but you'll be able to shoot the proper damage type therefore dealing more actual DPS in many situations. More gank less tank is a good thing IMO.
You can already select the propper damage type, and it doesn't do more DPS. Removing te kinetic bonus wont make the other damage types do more damage than they do now. Rath Kelbore wrote:So all of us drake pilots should be for this change. If drake haters wanna call it a nerf, please let them. It'll be more fun when our drakes kill them still, despite being "nerfed". You're assuming that they will actually offset the nerfs as they have suggested. Bet you it ends up more nerf and less compesation.
Removing the kinetic bonus won't make the other damage types do more damage than they do now, that is of course until you apply the ROF bonus.
As far as what they actually implement who knows, I'm going off of what it says in the minutes. If that changes then obviously my view point may change. |
Famble
Three's a Crowd
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 20:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
arcca jeth wrote:CCP is starting down the slippery slope here. Nerf = Nerf = Nerf and so on
The Hurricane in mr potatoes guys analysis doesn't really argue anything other than training time. the dps of the Hurricane fit is considerably higher with a lower EHP when compared to the drake. what you could argue for is to bring the drake training times in par with the Hurricane if that is the basis of your argument.
Now they could make the drake a little less effective at close range but then that would present a problem to Heavy Assault fits.
players use different ships and fits for different reasons. i see Hurricanes more often then Drakes but no one makes a fuss about them.
If CCP nerfs the Drake it will be the beginning of an endless cycle of NERFS.
Hurricane has: twice the DPS indeed, but one quarter of the tank, less range by a factor of 8 or so and takes 35 days longer to train. 35 days! Crazy since they're both passively tanked battlecruisers. And the tank, my gosh man, 70,000 ehp?!? On a battlecruiser that can be trained that quickly?! You seriously don't see a problem here?
Also, I could have stuck artillery on the hurricane to make range a bit closer to the Drake (still not as good though) and the DPS would be almost equal.
I'm not complaining, I love the Hurricane as is and truly don't give two craps about Drakes I'll take DPS over tank any day. But that seems nuts the way it is now.
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 22:31:00 -
[43] - Quote
Actually just fit and dps graphed a Hurrican and a Drake. Presuming both were moving at 97% of velocity with weighted resists, and varying trajectories. The Drake can only maintain about 98 DPS with HMs at any range; where the Hurricane pushes 120DPS in short Range, and falls off from there.
Presuming a PvP scenario, where the Drake and Hurricane were close enough to Scram each other, the Hurricane would likely win, and it's also faster, (about +100 m/s), so it can manage range. Both had about the same EHP. |
Mars Theran
EVE Rogues
EVE Rogues Alliance
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 22:33:00 -
[44] - Quote
Famble wrote:arcca jeth wrote:CCP is starting down the slippery slope here. Nerf = Nerf = Nerf and so on
The Hurricane in mr potatoes guys analysis doesn't really argue anything other than training time. the dps of the Hurricane fit is considerably higher with a lower EHP when compared to the drake. what you could argue for is to bring the drake training times in par with the Hurricane if that is the basis of your argument.
Now they could make the drake a little less effective at close range but then that would present a problem to Heavy Assault fits.
players use different ships and fits for different reasons. i see Hurricanes more often then Drakes but no one makes a fuss about them.
If CCP nerfs the Drake it will be the beginning of an endless cycle of NERFS. Hurricane has: twice the DPS indeed, but one quarter of the tank, less range by a factor of 8 or so and takes 35 days longer to train. 35 days! Crazy since they're both passively tanked battlecruisers. And the tank, my gosh man, 70,000 ehp?!? On a battlecruiser that can be trained that quickly?! You seriously don't see a problem here? Also, I could have stuck artillery on the hurricane to make range a bit closer to the Drake (still not as good though) and the DPS would be almost equal. I'm not complaining, I love the Hurricane as is and truly don't give two craps about Drakes I'll take DPS over tank any day. But that seems nuts the way it is now.
The Hurricane takes longer to train because you have to go through Small Turrets Spec to get Medium Turret Spec. That's not really a fair assessment. BC 5 Trains in the same time either way; as do the rest of the skills.
edit: The problem isn't so much the Drake, as the Heavy Missiles vs. Minmatar Artis Range and DPS. The 650 and 720 Artis have pathetic DPS and not particularly comparable range. HMs could probably use a 20km Max. Range reduction, and Artis could likely see a DPS boost and Optimal Increase.
Drop the base shields and shield Regen on the Drake by 5% and change the Kinetic bonus to 5% to all missiles, and call it good.
That would probably be all that is needed. You can't fault a ship hull for the weapons systems it has access to.
Not saying that will provide perfect balance, but it will bring it a lot closer. |
Rixiu
North Star Networks
The Kadeshi
78
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 22:36:00 -
[45] - Quote
Nerf subcaps, buff supers and capitals in general. Yeah, that sounds about right... oh wait! |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 22:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Nerf Drakes!?!?!
Please note: You never see 'em used for ganks.
NERF the Brutix!!!
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
869
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:07:00 -
[47] - Quote
Lots of misinformation in this thread... just to reinterate.
A ROF bonus = more damage than a 5% kinetic damage bonus, and is applicable to all damage types.
Your typical properly fit Drake will currently ignore the damage of a comparable Harby or Hurricane and pound it to a pulp over time or force it to withdraw. As always, there are exceptions to this rule.
Even post change the Drake can still mount a very nice tank, while delivering more (selectable) damage at longer ranges.
When a "new" player can quickly jump into a Drake and do level 4's with impunity at little expense, this indicates a problem.
Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Fatal Ascension
263
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:13:00 -
[48] - Quote
Words.
Also, poasting in a tears thread.
Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing. |
Rath Kelbore
The Six-Pack Syndicate
EVE Animal Control
13
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Lots of misinformation in this thread... just to reinterate.
A ROF bonus = more damage than a 5% kinetic damage bonus, and is applicable to all damage types.
Your typical properly fit Drake will currently ignore the damage of a comparable Harby or Hurricane and pound it to a pulp over time or force it to withdraw. As always, there are exceptions to this rule.
Even post change the Drake can still mount a very nice tank, while delivering more (selectable) damage at longer ranges.
When a "new" player can quickly jump into a Drake and do level 4's with impunity at little expense, this indicates a problem.
Not sure about the bold part but everything else is true. If they do the changes proposed in the minutes, it's hardly a nerf. I'm more inclined to call it a buff, maybe a re-balancing. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:15:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:
When a "new" player can quickly jump into a Drake and do level 4's with impunity at little expense, this indicates a problem.
So the problem is actually new guys/missioners making too much money again is it? Seems to be a common theme 'round here.
How 'bout we just make ALL ships in game have a "0.0" bonus. You HAVE to be in a major alliance, suck hard, provide reach-arounds 23.5/7 and tow the line for bonuses to apply.
Starting to think the motivation for some guys is a highsec emptier than lowsec and/or turn it into a ******* wasteland. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
64
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:19:00 -
[51] - Quote
Rico Minali wrote:Words.
Also, poasting in a tears thread.
This coming from a guy that did nothing but rat in PXF with a..... wait for it...... DRAKE
Obviously don't need it anymore huh? |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
1580
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:43:00 -
[52] - Quote
Famble wrote:Nice, T2 Drake.
Newbie training plan: ~52 days
70,000 EHP - 463 omni dps tank
463 DPS @ 80+ km
Funny, I'm looking at a 125 day skillplan for a freshly rolled character to fly a halfway decent T2-fit Drake. You know that having the skills to fit the ship and use the mods doesn't quite mean that you can fly it effectively, right?  |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 00:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
1. Take drake into C1/C2 wormhole
2. pull all the triggers and lol as drake easily tanks dozens of sleepers, even with no hardeners.
4. point and click missiles. Range, meh, traversal, meh.
5. profit
Passive shield tanking is OP, especially for ships with shield resistance bonuses. |
P42ALPHA
DEAD-ON
35
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
mkint wrote:"I want to keep my easy mode ship that requires no thought nor talent to fly!"
Drake sucks. People fly it because it's made for stupid people. Anyone defending it is revealing their intelligence.
This mam is not incorrect.
"All hail Wang ... the little fella in Command. When 'trouble' starts to spread, I'm sure he will rise to the occasion."
Azahni Vah'nos (Best reply ever) |
Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
84
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:14:00 -
[55] - Quote
Soulpirate wrote:
Anyone claiming that it needs to be nerfed for any other reason than PvP is just
full of it and using excuses to make PvP easier for their chosen ship.
Yeah, well I'm full of this:
The Drake is far superior for PVE than any other battlecruiser, superior in PVE many ways to most t3's (except tengu), superior in PVE to HACs (except Ishtar), superior to pirate cruisers (except Gila), and is also superior in most PVE to most battleships.
I don't give a f--- about PVP, and I don't really care if it doesn't get nerfed, since I benefit as much as anyone from it staying as it is, but it is clearly an outlier in PVE.
|
knobber Jobbler
United Highsec Front
The 99 Percent
23
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
Lord Salty wrote:As per the title,
PLEASE DONT NERF MY DRAKE.
I read in the CSM notes the potential nerf for the drake.
While i would agree that the Nighthawk doesnt get looked at as much because of the drake's sheer amount of awesomeness I dont agree that the solution is nerfing the drake.
I am not one of the ppl that flies a drake coz its easy to fly. I am a proud Caldari pilot that flies a Drake because shields and missiles are awesome!
The nighthawk isn't used because its crap and there are better ships for its intended purpose. It has nothing to do with the drake.
Command ships in general need a review. You might see one occasionally as an off grid booster but that's all. |
Corina Jarr
Spazzoid Enterprises
Purpose Built
510
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:27:00 -
[57] - Quote
What the hell is all the complaining about. A minor loss of tank (I estimate it could still tank most lvl4s in its sleep) for a major gain in effective dps.
The drake will actually kill things in less than an hour!!! |
Drew Solaert
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
41
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:28:00 -
[58] - Quote
Bend over and take it like a man. This was a long, long, LONG time coming.
I for one hope the time taken was an epic run up for the pounding.
Signed
Bitter Gallente Purist. |
met worst
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:32:00 -
[59] - Quote
Anya Ohaya wrote:1. Take drake into C1/C2 wormhole
2. pull all the triggers and lol as drake easily tanks dozens of sleepers, even with no hardeners.
4. point and click missiles. Range, meh, traversal, meh.
5. profit
Passive shield tanking is OP, especially for ships with shield resistance bonuses.
Can I come watch you do this? (The underline bit - in a C2). |
Famble
Three's a Crowd
258
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:36:00 -
[60] - Quote
Andski wrote:Famble wrote:Nice, T2 Drake.
Newbie training plan: ~52 days
70,000 EHP - 463 omni dps tank
463 DPS @ 80+ km Funny, I'm looking at a 125 day skillplan for a freshly rolled character to fly a halfway decent T2-fit Drake. You know that having the skills to fit the ship and use the mods doesn't quite mean that you can fly it effectively, right?
Fine, now do it for a cane smart guy. I explained the parameters of my example. I can only lead you water friend, i can't make you drink.
If anyone ever looks at you and says, "Hold my beer, watch this,"-á you're probably going to want to pay attention. |
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