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Graph ro
Aquilae Stellaris Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.09.10 04:25:00 -
[61]
Can't say good fight, because there was no fight. The problem is not the hardware, it's the game that forces you to get as many as you can in your fleet. We had a plan for that fight, could have worked but the people could not do anything because of lag, many didn't even load and ended up dead.
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INZi
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 04:27:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Graph ro Can't say good fight, because there was no fight. The problem is not the hardware, it's the game that forces you to get as many as you can in your fleet. We had a plan for that fight, could have worked but the people could not do anything because of lag, many didn't even load and ended up dead.
guess the game forced you to recruit about 1000 players in 2 weeks
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Scav Silver
Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 05:37:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Scav Silver on 10/09/2007 05:36:53 Bitter sweet victory, if ask me.. I'll take it, as would the enemy, if it was in my shoes.. -------------------------------------------------------------
"Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=- |
Solasta Kovacs
FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 06:12:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Sacul
Originally by: Fry Fortune from the screenshots, it looks like FS/M-PIRE/F4T4L are in big fights for the first time, all their clients are configged pretty badly to jump into hostiles...
You Sir are a G00n and are not suposed to say sensible things!
For the guy who posted the screenshot yeah u need some lessons for fleet fights and from chatbox it looks like u were trying to turn effects off after u lagged out....doesnt work mate.
Anyhow i missed it and cant say im sorry.....there are lag reducing methods tho and they do work. I dont like these fights tbh, its not skill and its not tactics, its random chance and we seem to be lucky lately.
I cant speak for others, but I certainly didnt load and am no stranger to large fights or UI optimisations. Have been in far bigger battles which have been just about playable. I can cope happily with three minute module lag... But if nothing loads at all...
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soulkiller3
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 07:19:00 -
[65]
Edited by: soulkiller3 on 10/09/2007 07:20:46 ops
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soulkiller3
Exanimo Inc Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 07:19:00 -
[66]
Edited by: soulkiller3 on 10/09/2007 07:20:09
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: soulkiller3 Do you lot read the blogs CCP post, there doing everthing there can to help lag but the main problem is there is not the hardware on the market atm to cope with the strain 200 v 200 puts on the severs, and if you want to quit and look of another game that will let you play 200 v 200 0n the same node, good luck and can i have your stuff??
FYI..I was fighting 300 vs 300 quite happily and so were many others before the "need for speed" patch
Nice CCP reach around, but do some homework on figures next time you feel the need to pat CCP on the back for making their game worse
The more the game develops the more data thatĘs being sent per player in the game which is why it seems less can play in a fighter before lag starts. And i dont think there has ever been a 300 v 300 without lag.
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Stoffl
Free Mercenaries Union FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 07:54:00 -
[67]
I came. I saw. I clicked jump. ... ... ... 20 minutes later Still no grid whatsover, heavy rant's on TS of ppl with no grid or even still "jumping" receiving kill&podmail (mind you still in space with no grid, just the mail is in your inbox to keep you happy)
Looked at my Logitech Momo Force Racing settling dust, built up and had some good time with a friend in Fern Bay Rallycross. LFS > Eve.
Ps: To the whizkids saying us we need to learn setting up our client.... A all effects disabled, all-blinkey-button-disabled, logs-disabled, overview & fleet minimzed & in Solarysystem-Map playing podpilot gets stuck in jumpin for
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Gal'tashec
Gallente Raptus Regaliter
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Posted - 2007.09.10 07:58:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: soulkiller3 Do you lot read the blogs CCP post, there doing everthing there can to help lag but the main problem is there is not the hardware on the market atm to cope with the strain 200 v 200 puts on the severs, and if you want to quit and look of another game that will let you play 200 v 200 0n the same node, good luck and can i have your stuff??
FYI..I was fighting 300 vs 300 quite happily and so were many others before the "need for speed" patch
Nice CCP reach around, but do some homework on figures next time you feel the need to pat CCP on the back for making their game worse
Well CCP has stated that they are working on solving this problem. They have also stated that it is a difficult thing to do. The current proprietary load balancing protocols developed by CCP are outdates and needs to be changed (being worked on), the code that handels node allocation needs fixing so it can do dynamic resource delegation, the UI is being rewritten from the ground up (a lot of lag is generated from all of the information that's sent between all clients when the grid load) and so on.
Anyone with decent knowledge about software engineering also knows this isn't something you develop over night nor do you test and debug it overnight either. I'm confident CCP are working hard on this and it does take time. Nothing to do about that.
About the new graphics and ships *sigh* New shipes arent being developed by the same people that do either Client or Server programming and the new graphics engine won't add to the lag (it really shouldn't) but reduce it a bit since the GPU and shaders are being used for effects and such and the strain on the cpu will be reduced.
Devs aren't interchangeable between departments. FFS stop whining about CCP not doing anything when you obiously don't know crap about software engineering nor do you read the dev comments.
This wasnt specifically directed towards any of the quoted pilots but a general reply on the side-topic
--- Vice CEO of Raptus Regaliter Always in the lookout for good pilots and corporations. |
ElrondMD
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.10 08:07:00 -
[69]
The entire area was lagging well before the fleet fight even started. It really comes down to who is willing to lose the most to lag to achieve their objective, i dont really understand the logic of you jumping into us in those conditions given you we outnumbered heavily BS wise anyway. Not the point i know but you have to play with the cards you are dealt, its not like lag is new.
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Groox
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.10 08:34:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Groox on 10/09/2007 08:36:32 I think you guys are putting to many hopes on new grphics engine. I have new high end Intel CPU and upper end NVIDIA GPU. I have been in all large northern fleetfights over last months and I have never had FPS related client lag. I'm pretty sure main problem is server and/or communication related. Rev 3 will not solve that that. They probably need to rewrite server code from scratch and even then I'm not 100% sure it's possible to solve speed problems with todays hardware without losing current game functionality.
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Faith Black
Minmatar Rolls Roids
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Posted - 2007.09.10 09:13:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Faith Black on 10/09/2007 09:14:21
Originally by: ElrondMD The entire area was lagging well before the fleet fight even started. It really comes down to who is willing to lose the most to lag to achieve their objective, i dont really understand the logic of you jumping into us in those conditions given you we outnumbered heavily BS wise anyway. Not the point i know but you have to play with the cards you are dealt, its not like lag is new.
Think you have answered it yourself. There are important objectives that need to be achieved, no matter under which conditions. If alliances gave up defending, just because they are afraid of dying in lag, then they can go right back to empire, when the first coalition of alliances knocks on their door. Personally you wouldn't see me joining any 200vs200 man battles, if it wasn't to defend our space. I do it only, because I don't want to relocate to empire and because I see it as a duty to help my alliances. If it wasn't to protect space, I'd say: 'Ok guys, that will be too laggy for me, I'm not joining this.'
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Hei'di
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 09:18:00 -
[72]
Originally by: ElrondMD The entire area was lagging well before the fleet fight even started. It really comes down to who is willing to lose the most to lag to achieve their objective, i dont really understand the logic of you jumping into us in those conditions given you we outnumbered heavily BS wise anyway. Not the point i know but you have to play with the cards you are dealt, its not like lag is new.
The decission was made because of the experience we all made in BKG when TRI/RZR/MM jumped in and were on the lucky side. Our opponents thought the same would happen again and tried to use this advantage. Obviously it doesn't work this way and the lag appears randomly and again the dice rolled in our favour.
What about throwing a coin in order to decide who wins a battle in the future? The loser fraction self-destructs their ships and goes home...
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Solasta Kovacs
FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 09:49:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Solasta Kovacs on 10/09/2007 09:51:21
Originally by: Hei'di
Originally by: ElrondMD The entire area was lagging well before the fleet fight even started. It really comes down to who is willing to lose the most to lag to achieve their objective, i dont really understand the logic of you jumping into us in those conditions given you we outnumbered heavily BS wise anyway. Not the point i know but you have to play with the cards you are dealt, its not like lag is new.
The decission was made because of the experience we all made in BKG when TRI/RZR/MM jumped in and were on the lucky side. Our opponents thought the same would happen again and tried to use this advantage. Obviously it doesn't work this way and the lag appears randomly and again the dice rolled in our favour.
What about throwing a coin in order to decide who wins a battle in the future? The loser fraction self-destructs their ships and goes home...
You have the point precisely! It does seem to be random, and massively frustrating for one side or the other. Unfortunately, it was about defending the space so wasnt an "optional" fight for those involved.
Lag isnt the issue so much- as a complete lack of function for many pilots who are then sitting ducks for the lucky ones who are able to see something. I wonder whether the system could or should be set up so that no one is able to act until the worst of the jumping / grid loading lag has dissipated? Probably impossible but we can hope
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Splagada
Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 10:04:00 -
[74]
had a good time. we discussed cooking with a hostile on one screen while my alt was in jump wait :p
a good time indeed! ------
Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
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Turiya Flesharrower
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 10:09:00 -
[75]
You made the mistake of jumping into us, into a non-station system which almost certainly had a lower priority on its node than K-8 did. The fight may have turned out differently if you'd just waited a few more minutes for us to jump into you, as was our plan, instead you threw away your advantage and your ships. I hope your FCs learn from last night because that was probably one of the most stupid tactical errors that I've ever seen; you deprived yourselves of a possible victory and us of a possibly manageable fight.
Remember kids, don't conduct fleet battles in systems with an obviously low node priority. If you have to, fight in station systems. -----
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Elenor
Tri Optimum Ev0ke
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Posted - 2007.09.10 10:30:00 -
[76]
While you had a lag fest, ill had two fun fights, with absolut no importance to any great war.
Serious guys, reduce the numbers and youll see how smooth eve runs when it comes to fighting.
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heheheh
Singularity. Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.09.10 10:55:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Elenor While you had a lag fest, ill had two fun fights, with absolut no importance to any great war.
Serious guys, reduce the numbers and youll see how smooth eve runs when it comes to fighting.
Dont be stupid. How can we defend against 200-300 by reducing the numbers ?
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sophisticatedlimabean
Gallente The Illuminati.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 11:18:00 -
[78]
Unless things have changed a lot since i left FATAL will be using the same combat settings on there overview and graphics/sound as every other fleet fighter in eve. I cannot say what cow/mpire are doing but i doubt they will be doing anything wrong in that area either.
As far as i could see from yesterdays fight the decision to jump in to us without us being bubbled and with no node reinforcment in that system was what caused the one sided fight. All we did was warp to a dude 170-180 off the gate load long range ammo if we needed to and waited til one of the hostiles loaded on screen.
I personaly saw 4-5 ships during the entire battle and managed to shoot at 2 or 3 of them i think. Jumping into us may have worked if we had been bubbled and if the system we had been in had been reinforced but with neither having been done it was suicide and a bad tactical error.
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Inosin
Caldari Stardust Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.10 11:24:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Inosin on 10/09/2007 11:26:31 You cant gather a 100-200 people fleet and than complain about lag because you are the cause not CCP.
Back in the days when i played wow there i saw it two times, big hostile army (about 120 people) entered our Capital City for fun. The result was freezing to framerate of 1 or 2 Fps and shortly after complete Serverbreakdown so its seems nowadays its simply not possible for any Serverhardware.
Dont blame CCP if you gather such big fleets to atack or defend systems. Life with the lag or dont join or gather this big fleets its that simple.
If the Serverperformace is increased lets say about 50% the result will be the fleetsize will grow aggain to a level where it does lag again. I think the right way is to look for weapons and gamemechanics that enforce people to avoid too big fleets. Bombs may be a good start for this.
Main Problem is that todays Powerblocs can gather easylie 200 People and sometimes 500 or even 1000 if nessesary. And this is the best way to overpower or to steamroll the opponent so the fleets will never become smaller only bigger and bigger (with more people on server and this much allys forced working together like atm)
So only way to get fleets smaller is to force them to divede and fight on differnt locations at the same time (maybe this can be reached with chanching some Poswarfaremechanics but dont ask what i have no Idea). Fleets will only divide if its more efficient to fly with 3 or 4 small fleets that with a big one.
Second way is to make hanging arround with a big feet dangerous. So Bombs are a good way. Titans are a good way too if youhave some risk for this might given to you. And yes even the lag is good because it forced many people to stop fleetwarfare and thsi people arnt there to make the fleets even bigger than they are so lag have made the fleets bit smaller overall too.
After all bring Ideas only blame CCP about lag while attending a 200 People fleet is just boring and stupid.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.09.10 11:24:00 -
[80]
Not entirely sure why you're bickering with each other, the game is borked and its no players fault. Is there an answer though? I'm beginning to think that with current hardware limitations there is no answer that wouldn't send CCP to the bank with a declaration of bankcruptcy.
I know nothing about hardware on this scale though.
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Dylan Rhade
Caldari UK Corp FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 13:01:00 -
[81]
Quote: Well CCP has stated that they are working on solving this problem. They have also stated that it is a difficult thing to do. The current proprietary load balancing protocols developed by CCP are outdates and needs to be changed (being worked on), the code that handels node allocation needs fixing so it can do dynamic resource delegation, the UI is being rewritten from the ground up (a lot of lag is generated from all of the information that's sent between all clients when the grid load) and so on.
No i dont have any idea about software mechanics, as of yet.
The main gripe i have is that during these fights, there logs contain about as much useful information as a bottle of liquidised sushi, the current reimbursement policy does nothing to stop us blaming CCP, they say they know theres a problem and they say they are fixing it, and they also say that they wont reimburse lagged out losses because their logs show nothing, a fact they hide behind for every petition about unfair losses.
Instead ofletting us stew with little to no informaton about so-called fixing of the lag and desync, they could at least make their customer service more human by reimbursing for losses under situations COMPLETELY beyond player control, instead of letting us sit here having to yell and shout and moan because of the injustice of it all, they could just reimburse losses for everybody, and then we'd start again, or try another objective.
Giving us a cookie and telling us to wait is a helluva lot more viable for keeping the masses apeased than the usual comments of " No it wasnt our fault, u cant have ur stuff back, now go away and stfu or we'll consider it escalation"
D
If my views represent the views of my corporation and alliance, then your face looks like a constipated elephant sat on it. |
Elenor
Tri Optimum Ev0ke
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Posted - 2007.09.10 13:12:00 -
[82]
Originally by: heheheh
Originally by: Elenor While you had a lag fest, ill had two fun fights, with absolut no importance to any great war.
Serious guys, reduce the numbers and youll see how smooth eve runs when it comes to fighting.
Dont be stupid. How can we defend against 200-300 by reducing the numbers ?
quiet simple less nappage. when all ppl would do that, nobody would face a 300+ men blob. But ppl are still putting their ingame assets over fun.
or you could send some of your allis towards a fleet before it merges with the other enemy fleet.
the game isnt borked, its not ment to be a 300 vs 300 lag free experience, cause there is no hardware on the planet which could make that happen.
eve server is fine as long as you dont try to things that are impossible with the current state of hardware.
on the other hand i giggle quiet a bit everytime such threads come up.
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Hei'di
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 13:38:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Hei''di on 10/09/2007 13:42:18
Originally by: EvOke
...some ingenious ideas...
epic fail!
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Fred0
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 14:16:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Elenor quiet simple less nappage. when all ppl would do that, nobody would face a 300+ men blob. But ppl are still putting their ingame assets over fun.
or you could send some of your allis towards a fleet before it merges with the other enemy fleet.
the game isnt borked, its not ment to be a 300 vs 300 lag free experience, cause there is no hardware on the planet which could make that happen.
eve server is fine as long as you dont try to things that are impossible with the current state of hardware.
on the other hand i giggle quiet a bit everytime such threads come up.
EVE was created with an open end and we're seeing natural progression. Trying to reverse this as a single alliance will MOST probably only mean one thing. Loosing/forfeiting the territorial alliance game.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.09.10 14:30:00 -
[85]
If CCP wants to reduce numbers, they need to change gameplay. With the current way the game models sovereignty and encourages/requires huge fleets to achieve certain objectives, there is noone to blame for blobs but CCP.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Fray
Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.10 14:49:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Malachon Draco If CCP wants to reduce numbers, they need to change gameplay. With the current way the game models sovereignty and encourages/requires huge fleets to achieve certain objectives, there is noone to blame for blobs but CCP.
To be fair that still wouldnt work, as if you made certain objectives that only required 10 people to do (say some sort of dimishing fire system) - you'd just get the other 190 people defending the 10 people.
You could do some sort of 4 out of 5 system marker sov thing so you'd have to split your fleet between at least 4 points to take a system - but I have no idea how that'd work, and you'd probably just get 100-200 ship fleets on each anyway.
Bleh
- <@Cf'DigitalCommunist> D2, if you go to za'ha'delve, you will die. - |
DALE0404
Blue Star Brotherhood
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Posted - 2007.09.10 15:07:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Packe
Originally by: Butter Dog I really have no idea why someone would jump into a 200 strong camp and then complain about lag.
What did you expect?
The game to work as advertised.
Fair Point Blue Star Brotherhood
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Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.09.10 15:24:00 -
[88]
Well all I can say is that Lag was chronic, I think it was about the same lag as when we attacked the bob shipyards in F-T and that engagement was much larger. Never the less lag won us the fight which isnt fun but hey crap happends, if the shoe was on the other foot you people wouldnt have complained.
Lets see what happends next time....
Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.
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Velios
M. Corp M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.09.10 15:24:00 -
[89]
0.0 warfare is broken.
The POS mechanics are great from a defenders point of view - they give you a punchers chance to defend your system against superior numbers.
However, it's no fun if we can't actually fight toe to toe and it's frankly making a mockery of all the talented skilled pilots that belong out in 0.0 atm - they just can't get a decent fight that determines in the expected way, the outcome of territorial dispute.
0.0 is broken. It's no fun looking at a blank overview night after night as you and your men are going down without chance to load. The options for someone like me who has played this game since day one are limited - the people who I hang with and fight against belong in 0.0, they want 0.0 but it's just not enjoyable right now - we have had over 1 year of constant disappointment in the way the server is handling large scale conflicts, even when lag has favoured us on occasion, victories seem hollow and worthless.
People like me, who have seen all there is to see in EVE have to stay in 0.0 - moving back to empire while the game get's fixed is simply not an option - I would rather play something else (and cancel all my accounts while I'm waiting)
EVE politics such as it is has pitted one side of EVE against the other - you are either on that side or you are not - there are few grey areas these days and as such conflicts are just getting bigger and more unplayable.
I don't see an answer to this problem apart from removing the features of the game that necessitate huge-scale warfare. But then of course we will be back to the ping-pong like existence that we had a few years ago with territory changing hands each week.
This game needs radically fixing or me and many people I know just wont suffer it's "quirks" for much longer.
M.Corp Capital Blueprint Facility |
Elenor
Tri Optimum Ev0ke
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Posted - 2007.09.10 15:35:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Fred0
Originally by: Elenor quiet simple less nappage. when all ppl would do that, nobody would face a 300+ men blob. But ppl are still putting their ingame assets over fun.
or you could send some of your allis towards a fleet before it merges with the other enemy fleet.
the game isnt borked, its not ment to be a 300 vs 300 lag free experience, cause there is no hardware on the planet which could make that happen.
eve server is fine as long as you dont try to things that are impossible with the current state of hardware.
on the other hand i giggle quiet a bit everytime such threads come up.
EVE was created with an open end and we're seeing natural progression. Trying to reverse this as a single alliance will MOST probably only mean one thing. Loosing/forfeiting the territorial alliance game.
Eve has advancded a lot in the last years, when ppl talk about epic battles from 3 years ago numbers where probally 60 vs 60, these days it becomes epic when the local reaches 500 and more. But this also has the problem of lag. So when ppl start complaing again and again about lag in such battles i dont see any point for blaiming ccp, its a problem that could be dodged by simply doing it "survival of the fittest" - not "survival of the most", or in other words ppl puttin their ingame value (assets) over fun.
Anyhow I have been in a few of those epic 500 ppl battles, and after a decent amount of time i just logged of and did something else cause its and uber waste of time.
A simple solution would be that an alliance shoudnt hold three regions but only one and is able to defend that one region against an enemie with the same size, but quiet a few alliance that are marked on the map simply dont deserve to be in this map as their are not able to defend their regions, the simple regions why those alliance have their space is because they having friends that are doing the dirty work for them.
IMO the whole claiming this is a bit borked as its benefits the blob and not small alliances, when you are a small aliance at this point in the game, you can just get out slaughter someone till he refuses to fight and then move on to someone else, ofc you can wave around your kd epeen but in the end it counts which name appears at the top left cornet and not who lost x bs in the last two weeks.
so keep doing your battles and every monday ive got something to giggle about.
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