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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.12 09:33:00 -
[31]
A Kestrel with heavies can still warp-scramble and kill an industrial pretty quickly.
Of course, it increases the time it takes and means you can't kill an indy while a BS is still locking you but thats what Rifters are for.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ska Kalazar
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Posted - 2004.02.12 09:57:00 -
[32]
I fail to see what your argument is? A lone Kestrel with cruise missiles is no threat to anyone apart from other frigates and industrials. You cannot kill a lone cruiser. You have to get within 20km to warp scramble and if your stupid enough to get within that range then a few hits from something like a 250mm hybrid or a beam laser will wipe you out pretty quickly. You can drive off a cruiser... heck I've even driven off Battleships but you can't kill them by yourself... so I fail to see why you are so ****ed about Kestrels armed with cruise missiles?
Now if you have 3-4 guys in assorted frigates (as we do in Merc Frigates) against one cruiser then its a whole new ball game. We will take apart a cruiser in a few minutes using the "wet noodle" technique. Now that is right and proper in my opinion. We use superior teamwork and organisation to overcome foes with far greater resources than we could ever dream to have. In my opinion there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Teamwork is what the game is all about.. wether you mine in a group, save for a BP or gank people in low sec space... its all about teamwork.
Regards
Ska
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.12 10:05:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 12/02/2004 10:08:41
 Quote:
You cannot kill a lone cruiser.
Yes you can.
I've killed a BB in HED-GP with a kestrel and I know that one other member of Everlasting Vendetta acheived the same.
The BB pilot was a bit of n00b though - only had heavy missiles and his 250mm railgun didn't hit me once.
Edit: And 5 minutes before my one and only podding, 4 EV kestrels took care of a Caracal and a Blackbird even though there were 2 Scorpions there with them.
We all got out alive but when we tried to make a run for the gate, Woetra popped me and my podgoo.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Ska Kalazar
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Posted - 2004.02.12 10:22:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Ska Kalazar on 12/02/2004 10:25:11
Yeah well I'm not talking about noob's asleep at the wheel... I'm talking about a half decent cruiser and BS pilots. Of course if you have some sap that doesn't warp away hell you can kill anyone.
Regards
Ska
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Chai N'Dorr
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Posted - 2004.02.12 10:36:00 -
[35]
Quote:
|dalman:|
The CAREBEARS won again. As usual. CCP intend to fix a problem, but then a thousand carebears screams out loud and CCP don't go through with the fix
Funny, and here I was thinking that the GRIEFERS won again... expendable ship which takes only a bit of training to use with Cruise missiles.
Sounds like GRIEFER tactics to me.
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SwitchBl4d3
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Posted - 2004.02.12 10:41:00 -
[36]
Quote:
A battleship and a frig are supposed to be like and elephant and a mosquito. They shoulden't be able to do anything to each other, under normal circumstances.
A frigate is supposed to be the work horse for a strike force, easy to replace and does the most of the job.
Today the battleship is the frigate. Nerf battleships but then the stuff strutter carebears would stomp their feet and raise their fists.
Please note that Carebears don't represent any majority, not even a significant minority. They are however very good at running their mouths so CCP thinks they 'have to listen'.
Social manipulation at an advanced level.
hmm /me looks at the new splash design on opening EVE and see's 3 slashers attacking 1 apoc. I think they want them to be more destructive so that it forces more people into them
"Teh lord of Nonni"
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Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2004.02.12 10:46:00 -
[37]
Just like a modern day Fighter jet can carry enough munitions to destroy an entire City, so a Frigate in EVE should be able to carry sufficient munitions to destroy a Battleship (or even damage a station, imo).
Cruise missiles fit the bill. Frigates must be able to use them.
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Schani Kratnorr
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Posted - 2004.02.12 11:06:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Just like a modern day Fighter jet can carry enough munitions to destroy an entire City, so a Frigate in EVE should be able to carry sufficient munitions to destroy a Battleship (or even damage a station, imo).
Cruise missiles fit the bill. Frigates must be able to use them.
There you said it, I agree - discussion is over, fairness won out in the end.
The problem with argueing this is that it's like argueing which chess peice is the best. Surely if you pit a Queen versus a single peasent the queen would win if they both started at opposite ends of the board, but if the peasent had the qeen cornered, and brought one of it's fellow peasent then the queen would go down (no phun intended... seriously).
Everyone is seeing ship balancing issues from their own perspective, they fail to realize that a battleship is vulnerable to certain combinations of fittings on certain ships. If all you battleship pilots out there are scared of frigates, then bring escorts to protect you - like any real life navy does.
The potential of a Kestrel with it's 4 standard launchers is to deliver massive damage using cruise missiles.
The downside to this is that it has to reload often during combat, it has to avoid enemy fire, it has to get close, but not too close.
The kestrel itself might not cost a lot to make but if/when you go down with it and you have say 20 cruise missiles with you, you also loose those - and that's another load of rare minerals lost.
Like chess, EVE has many playing peices, all of which have different strenghts and weaknesses. A commander that balances out the vulnerabilities of one ship, by taking advantage of the strengths of another, is more likely to win than one who doesn't...
--
"I am an expert in not caring. The trick is to stop giving a rat's ass about anyone else and start thinking about what YOU want, what YOU diserve, what the world ows YOU!" - Bender |
Kaylon Syi
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Posted - 2004.02.12 11:25:00 -
[39]
Nerf Cruise Missiles on Frigates might as well take the whole ship class out and start the rookies out in lvl 1 Cruisers.
You only get 4 cruise max per volley on tech 1 frigates and you have to reload every 10 seconds. There is no auto-reload... you manually have to do this... that is not only 10 seconds out the your time but the trouble it takes to right click... reload... all the while the opponent's lock is nearing completion.
Lets not even start on Drones being a counter to frigates.
All in all its pretty balance as it stands. If someone wants to go cry home cause a kestrel "seems" to do as much damage a Scorpion, Typhoon or Caracal hten i think thats more carebear than any other example. Why... because it only seems that way but there are more variables to combat than damage and I expect that you know that because its your name.
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Snaad Gnabbsvindel
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Posted - 2004.02.12 15:52:00 -
[40]
Actually Ive just started to pvp with a friend in frigs and theyre great fun. Ironically our first target was a c.o.w Typhoon which we managed to while he warped in on the gate in to orvolle in pf. Me and my friend Admiral iceblock attacked attacked him in a griffin(noobie me) and a punisher(Iceblock). I jammed him and Admiral engaged close by to scramble.
The Typhoon pilot didsnt seem to have any smartbomb fitted cause we held him there for a while until he fled to the gate wgile we called for help in local. If wed had some heavy fire support like a caracal I think we might have toasted him.
I was sure we were going to die when attacking it.
I havent pvped much but I understand the Typhoon pilot had equipped poorly. It still seems to me that frigates attacking with superior numbers and pherhaps a cruiser for firepower is a threat to any bs.
The Irrational is never wrong!! |
s0cks
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Posted - 2004.02.12 16:10:00 -
[41]
LOL
Never thought Skillz would whine like a carebear.
Oh no! My Battleship might be in danger from a Kestrel! Nerf nerf nerf!
Settle down skillz, it alright.
/me strokes skillz better
xx
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.12 16:30:00 -
[42]
Quote:
Skillz, Frigates Fire cruise missiles in RL
nah, they fire Torpedos, Cruise Missiles is actully long range!!! So i would like to see Frigs using SLOW Torps instead of Cruise! any1 ever played Battlefield 1942, Battle of Phillpines? there u can see small boats using Torps, not Cruise... And Cruise missiles should not be able to be fitted on a Frig and Cruise missiles should start slow, but accelerate fast after 10-20km...
Ships in EVE is just basicly "Weapon Platforms", the ones that can fitt the most weapons, WINS!!! in RL, anything counts, in EVE, just the Guns!!
"We brake for nobody"
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Maud Dib
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Posted - 2004.02.12 17:22:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Maud Dib on 12/02/2004 17:30:00
Quote:
Quote:
Okay, now I'm really confused. How can it be carebears who wanted frigates to be more dangerous? Carebears are anti-fighting.
For what purpose do you use Kestrels with cruise missiles?
Answer: Killing industrials.
If you can't risk using a cruiser worth 1.5M when you're killing helpless industrials worth 30M, what are you then?
Answer: A carebear. Be it a carebear-pirate, carebear-griefer or a carebear in the military of an alliance. It's still a carebear.
Dalman two of our guys killed two blackbirds with two kestrels 2 vs 2. Now thats not ganking or carebear. Personally I hate frigs and don't fly them.
I'm not sure why the indignation over Kestrels killing helpless Indys. I mean do the Indy pilots feel better over getting ganked by battleships?
Now a discussion of balance is something else entirely. Though I have noticed that one man balancing is another mans nerfing. Most of the time it comes down to, I don't like it so it has to go mentality.
PS Once you get that damn nerf bat swinging you might not like where it hits next. If it really is a problem then why not just make Indy's tougher?
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Skillz
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Posted - 2004.02.12 18:41:00 -
[44]
Hey sUcks, it's about a larger issue and that's why CCP does not balance stuff as they say they will do but don't because of carebear whining.
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.12 19:00:00 -
[45]
Edited by: j0sephine on 12/02/2004 19:01:15
"If you can't risk using a cruiser worth 1.5M when you're killing helpless industrials worth 30M, what are you then?
Answer: A carebear. Be it a carebear-pirate, carebear-griefer or a carebear in the military of an alliance. It's still a carebear."
... Is that why pilots of EV were using frigates to gank CA indies loaded with arkonor, and bragging about it all over these very forums... not that long ago?
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.12 19:12:00 -
[46]
The real issue here is the ineffectiveness of rockets and light missiles in combat.
Rockets have almost no effective range, thus are useless -- light missiles aren't much better.
Smaller missiles should be faster than bigger missiles, rockets fastest, torpedo slowest.
The only thing that keeps frigates somewhat effective in PvP, is cruise missiles, this of course makes turret based frigates less desirable.
Hopefully this will get sorted out and all frigates will have a ROLE to play in PvP.
------
ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Skillz
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Posted - 2004.02.12 19:12:00 -
[47]
Looks at Dalman, eagerly awaiting to hear the reply to this....
Keep on flaming, lamers.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.12 19:18:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Edited by: j0sephine on 12/02/2004 19:01:15
"If you can't risk using a cruiser worth 1.5M when you're killing helpless industrials worth 30M, what are you then?
Answer: A carebear. Be it a carebear-pirate, carebear-griefer or a carebear in the military of an alliance. It's still a carebear."
... Is that why pilots of EV were using frigates to gank CA indies loaded with arkonor, and bragging about it all over these very forums... not that long ago?
I want to see dalman answer this too 
Not all of used Kestrels though - Andrew Jade, Claveman, and MadCybord used Rifters and were as successful as the Kestrel pilots.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Marabeth
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Posted - 2004.02.13 00:03:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Looks at Dalman, eagerly awaiting to hear the reply to this....
OMG my poorly set up Battleship which I forgot to add drones to was bullied by Frigates (the counter to which is drones, cruisers, light weapons or frigates).
Nerf frigates, not dumb people in battleships who don't have light weapons, frigate support, cruiser support, or drones.... 
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.02.13 01:19:00 -
[50]
Quote:
Rifters are awesome. I like them much more than Kestrels.
Seems to me that's what CCP thinks too. If Bombers remain unchanged from the specs given out in EVE-DB, many of the Bombers in all races are going to be Rifter hull based, although I do think the ones for Amarr will be changed to using Inquisitor hulls, given the special Amarr Navy Captain and Sarum Navy Captain Inquisitor hulls already out with NPCs.
Quote:
As for the cruise missile thing, I've alwasy thought of frigates using cruise missiles like the WWII PT Boats of the U.S. Navy. I think it's great that cruiser pilots cannot dismiss a ship simply because "he's just in a frigate".
Many modern frigates use the designation FFG or Guided Missile Frigate, use antiship missiles that are in effect small cruise missiles. These missiles like the Harpoon and the Exocet, skim very low over the water, making them very hard to hit or intercept.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Azure Skyclad
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Posted - 2004.02.13 01:35:00 -
[51]
Did they change the way agility of ships/missiles workd recently too? Not so long ago, anything bigger than a heavy ,issile used to just loop and circle my Rifter quite ineffectively. It was either a bug or the difficulty a large and relatively slow missile has hitting a small, agile target. THe latter made sense and i thought "Nice one CCP" Not recently though. Now cruises and torps are pretty damn accurate.
You can jink by (OMG!) manually changing the direction of your ship with an MWD running but i liked the older way. Bug or not.
La Maison de tous Les Plaisirs
Star Fraction
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