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Shaemell Buttleson Darwin With Attitude oooh Shiny	Posted - 2007.09.26 17:20:00 - [61] It is a refreshing change to read posts like the last 2 from new players. Kudos and hope you enjoy the game for a long time to come and see the benefits of traing the boring learners up. snip Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players even if the little dweebs deserve it! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Jack Jombardo	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:02:00 - [62] Originally by: Ard UnjiiGo Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 26/09/2007 16:01:58 Edited by: Ard UnjiiGo on 26/09/2007 15:56:40 A rookie here. Just a little over 2 months old. I've trained all learning skills to 4/4 except charisma and will power are 4/3 currently. Some of the discussion seems to be around the impact of learning skills on new player retention so here's .02isk more. Imo, yeah, it was a bit of a drag to train them up. Followed the advice of other posters here and tried to train up other skills during play time to imrpove my play. Since there is a huge drop off in "return" for skill training over time it made sense to adopt a jack-of-all trades approach and begin collecting the skillbooks for everything combat-related I could use as well as other things that could help out the corp or my wallet (rig-building). Currrently have a 124 skills and over 3.1 mil SPs and have sold 5 rigs so far for a nice profit. I don't fly anything fancy. Just frigs and destroyers for the most part since I play to PvP and live in low-sec. So, for learning skills I've put off perhaps flying that BC in my first 2 weeks like so many players seem to go for (and God Bless you when you bring them to rat in low-sec ). But so what? I'm in the game for the long haul and have learned a ton about the game that has nothing to do with "opening" up BCs or BSs as fast as I can but everything to do with how to make isk and survive. So my advice, as a rookie, is to train those learning skills up. Don't drive your self crazy. Change it up. And add skills you feel confident you will use later on as quickly as you can. Every isk I put into skillbooks was isk I wasn't tempted to go spend on a cruiser that would just get popped in a few days or less. "Eating" skill books is a wise way, imo, to use that first isk you earn. It's an investment that can't be blown up . Last thing, is for folks interested as rookies in PvP, building those learning skills up quickly seems even more important. You aren't going to be flying around with +4s implants plugged into your head much . So the learning skills are even more important to get out of the way. that's a way I totaly agree with :) finish the learnings up to the point where they need over 24 houres (that's level 3 I belive). then train "normal gameplay" skills like weapons, ships, mining and so on while playing and setup slow learnings at night/work. That way you'll see an improvement of your char while you benefit at the long run from the learnings. If you ones reached 4 basics and 3 advanced stop them as each of em would take 5+ days and train all other skills you like to have that need less then 5 days. If you have no skill under 5 days train your learnings again.
kimish	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:13:00 - [63] Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board. totally agree here. learning skills is the worst thing ever happening to this game (NO the 10+ attributes is a GOOD thing. but the 2 month wait time or the feeling that you will be left behind if you don't, THAT really kills almost any new player, as good as every one i have asked that haver tryid eve trail and quit have quit because of the 2month of learning skills so you don't feel your wasting sp and thereby get left behind.) all in all they should have realized this by now :S _____ _____ "When the moderators are gone, the trolls dances on the table."
Madrux	Posted - 2007.10.19 11:03:00 - [64] Ok, I am a noob. I tried playing around exodus/revelation and was turned off by the learning curve which is unusual for me. Stopped and came back for revelations 2. CCP have already made plenty of changes to make the game way more noob friendly. But what I realised was that it wasn't the learning skills or any of that which turned me off the first time. The reason i got turned off the first time was because my first character was not built the way i would want to play the game. Case and point the opening character selection is a aptitude test for your first time in the eve universe. If you choose your chr direction honestly from the beginning then these other skills will fall into play naturally and not seem like your constantly playing catch up with skills you should have started with high for your gaming style. my new character has been playing only two weeks and i already have what i need for a shiny new cruiser because i have a chracter that works well with my playing style...its as simple as that. I like things the way they are learning skill wise because like all mmorpg's you should have put in the hard yards to get to the top. Otherwise everyone would have frikin Titan.
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.19 22:35:00 - [65] If training the learning skills is boring, and you're stuck in a frigate, then don't train learning skills beyond what you are comfortable with. Fun is more important than efficiency. Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
Chaplain Veritas Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.20 00:36:00 - [66] i'm here to throw in my 2 isk that learning skills are stupid. learning to learn = playing so that some day i can actually play. i know ALL mmo's have a component of progressing purely for the sake of progress, but the whole learning skill takes that concept to a new level of grindy silliness. i don't pay money for this game so i can not log in for a month while i wait for a skill that has nothing to do with my gameplay goes up. imho attributes should raise slowly as skills relevant to those attributes are trained. that is all i have to say about that. ____________________________ the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.20 03:58:00 - [67] Originally by: Chaplain Veritas i don't pay money for this game so i can not log in for a month while i wait for a skill that has nothing to do with my gameplay goes up. If you don't want to train them, then don't train them, Damned fool! Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
Chaplain Veritas Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.20 19:13:00 - [68] Originally by: Dubious Drewski Originally by: Chaplain Veritas i don't pay money for this game so i can not log in for a month while i wait for a skill that has nothing to do with my gameplay goes up. If you don't want to train them, then don't train them, Damned fool! hi angry little man. i don't train learning lvl 5. i love angry, sad little people who get set off in a forum for someone expressing an opinion. ____________________________ the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.20 19:59:00 - [69] Sorry if that came off as anger. It wasn't. But you can't call someone a fool without adding an exclamation point, don't you agree? Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
Chaplain Veritas Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.20 20:09:00 - [70] Originally by: Dubious Drewski Sorry if that came off as anger. It wasn't. But you can't call someone a fool without adding an exclamation point, don't you agree? lol true. i would have appreciated "knave" a little better though. it has an outdated ring to it that i like. so i'll call you a damned knave.... oh almost forgot "!" ____________________________ the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist

Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:28:00 - [71] With my main here (and first char), I gradually trained up most of the learnings to 3-5. I didn't have EVEMon to help me with the numbers, but I figured a level or two would pay off fairly quickly. Now that I'm a little wiser in the ways of EVE, I make my new characters a little better. I've got an alt that will be doing little more than learning skills for quite some time. Yes, training all learning skills to 5 will take (OMG!) 3 years to pay off, but I figure I can hang for at least that long. This is the investment choice I make. Cancel my investment for some cookie cutter +10 to stats crap? Uhh, NO. Learn and adapt, or get plowed under by those who do. For the newbs just starting, grab a level or two in whatever learning skill that will boost the skills you're wanting to train. The more you find you love the game, the more levels of learning skills you'll want to train. Not training up a certain learning skill isn't the end of the world any more than forgetting to set a long skill training before going to work. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.20 21:47:00 - [72] Originally by: Helen Hunts (training all learning skills to 5) is the investment choice I make... The more you find you love the game, the more levels of learning skills you'll want to train... Perfectly said. Nothing more needs to be added, and this thread can die happy. Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
SheriffFruitfly Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.10.29 05:40:00 - [73] I never understood why people b$tch about this. Do some learning skills, then do some gameplay skills. Repeat. So what if it's not optimal? We don't optimize RL either.
Gamer Maximus	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:28:00 - [74] One month into my new char, I have all my basic learning skills up to level 4, all of the basic engineering/electronic skills up to 3 or 4, and most of the gunnery skills for my race at 3. Another month, and the majortity of the skills I will be using for the rest of the game will already be at 3-4. Rather then getting learning from level 4 to 5, run some actual missions and get some +2 implants instead.
Fabrica	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board. Cool. Do I get my 2M skillpoints back? 5,376,000 if you've trained them all to level 5
Rheddin	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:20:00 - [76] I never had an issue with learning skills. bugger everyone who says learn the basic 5 to IV right away. I got 3 out of 4 to lvl2. then did some other stuff, had fun. got a couple to lvl3. the rest to lvl 3. did some other stuff. had fun. now, I stick one onto IV when I go bed. my training times have been fine. I thogroughly recommend the 'get 'em to 4, but dont break a sweat about it. do it over the next 3 -4 weeks, with some other stuff in there in the meantime, so you's can have fun' and, evemon comes in handy. if I make a longish plan, evemon tells me specifically which learning skills will help.
Shandling Minmatar	Posted - 2007.10.29 21:52:00 - [77] Edited by: Shandling on 29/10/2007 21:53:26 The learning skill grind sucks. I loved the game, so I just got a second account and enjoyed the game with one account and did the learning skills on my main. When they were all 5/4 (as was required at the time) I swapped to my main, and did the learning on my alt. I ended up keeping the alt account and run two accounts side by side now. Not a feasible solution for all, but hey, they're getting paid for two accounts from me now because of it... :P For newer players who don't want to pay for two accounts, I'd recommend mixing them in to your normal training... so train a gun skill, then a learning skill one point, then a ship skill, then another learning skill, etc. That way you're not completely gimping yourself with learning, but you're not just ignoring it either.
Yamamaya Hayahikigane Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.30 00:48:00 - [78] First of all, Id like to point out how newer chars already got about 850K SP. It took me about 25 days to get that on this char if I remember correctly. This means you are ALREADY getting a MONTH worth of skilling at th start. A full set of Learning V + basic Vs + advanced IVs takes some 29 days IIRC. It is worth it, really. And noone tells you to skill them. I did, because I got my 900 days+ skillplans and I see the difference between 1500 days without learnings and some 900 days with them. I even trained some advanced ones to V on some of my chars. I dont see it as a loss. I lost much more time skilling stuff I thought was useful (i.e. my alt has 6M in Eletronics, where he actually needs only half that and in different skills from the ones he has) The interweb spaceships is serious business, and its up to you to decide wether you want 2200 SP/hour across the board or 1300 SP/hour across the board. Both solutions are viable. You might want to speed up some skill for some reason on your main, you arent in a hurry on ur alt, so u train Learnings accordingly. ^__^
Rogue 2 Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.31 03:20:00 - [79] Edited by: Rogue 2 on 31/10/2007 03:26:03 Edited by: Rogue 2 on 31/10/2007 03:25:30 Originally by: Akita T Heck, I kind of did that for my alt... well, true, I did help out financially. Do it from scratch and then your words won't ring hollow. You get an new alt to +3 advanced learning and have a "satisfactory" battlecruiser that can solo T3 missions w/o financial help in two weeks, THEN I'll be impressed. Then again, you won't be able to do it since you can't get 1mil+ SP in two weeks on a new toon w/o implants. You basically proved OP's point. w/o the financial help, you'd still be flying crap. Remember, those +4/5 implants were a HUGE boost that a noob won't get. Personally, I'd say drop the training skills and offer implants up to +10. You'd have to train "advanced cybernetics" to 5 to get them, and they'd be crazy expensive, but that'd help a bit on the training skills. As for vets, if you ask for the SP back, CCP would have to refigure th time you gained from the learning skills and take it back. Personally, I'd just let them have the SP and count the extra time as a bonus. Perhaps they could throw in "Advanced Cybernetics 3" or something. ;) But I doubt it will change. Fun argument though :)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2007.10.31 07:30:00 - [80] ôAs for vets, if you ask for the SP back, CCP would have to figure the time you gained from the learning skills and take it back. Personally,ö Do you have any idea on the outrage that would cause? I would lose tons of skills and so would many others. I would guess over 20 skills would vanish perhaps more. How would CCP even choose which skillpoints to take back? Passive shield tanking guide click here

puff freak	Posted - 2007.10.31 23:37:00 - [81] Originally by: Chaplain Veritas imho attributes should raise slowly as skills relevant to those attributes are trained. that is all i have to say about that. that's an interesting idea. no one knows the pain of waiting more than i do! I've maxed out learning tree a total of 5 times (different character accounts) both in basic and advanced. Use to be near 5-6 months. this was before they made it easier! when they changed it, it made me mad that i spent more time than newer players. If they ever take learning out, i'd probably quit out of anger. in anycase, your idea of advancing slowly is something i've thought about and makes sense. but the overall way i look at it now is: DON'T CHANGE IT!! the last thing an MMORPG wants to do is **** off it's current population, like Star Wars Galaxies did. it works.. leave it alone. all players - new and old are required to spend equal time learning the learning skills if they opt to do it. if you want a shoot em up game then buy an arcade game. and as someone here already said. New players shouldn't have Advanced Learning skills due to the cost.
Rogue 2 Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.01 03:52:00 - [82] Originally by: Pottsey ôAs for vets, if you ask for the SP back, CCP would have to figure the time you gained from the learning skills and take it back. Personally,ö Do you have any idea on the outrage that would cause? I would lose tons of skills and so would many others. I would guess over 20 skills would vanish perhaps more. How would CCP even choose which skillpoints to take back? No no. I wasn't suggesting it as a good idea. My point was simply that IF they did this and some vet said "give me my SP back", CCP's response could very well be "Well, then we'll take back all the extra SP you gained from having advanced learning skills". Sorry if that wasn't clear. I was basically saying IF (unlikely) they were to do away with the learning skills, it probably would not be a good idea to ask for that 2mil SP back. I guess in a way I agree with the OP. The current skill system is one of the major roadblocks to EVE's growth imho. But I don't think removing the learning skills is the solution. Personally, I think they could just lower SP requirements for by 10-20% across the board. Make it a LONG time before a noob runs into a "3 weeks?!?!?!?!" skill. That probably does more to keep people from playing past the first 2-3 months than anything else. but that's a post for another time (still trying to decide how to do it).
puff freak	Posted - 2007.11.01 18:12:00 - [83] the fact that ccp allowed players to advance to the Advanced learning skills by obtaining only level 4 rather than 5 is proof that they know it's an issue. when-ever learning is brought up on the forums people like myself are going to get uptight because we spent so much time doing it. what i did in the beginning was i created 3 character accounts, and trained nothing but learning on two of them for over 5 months. the characters did nothing but learn learning the entire time! no-way to play them, but on my 3rd account i used him to play and also learn some learning, but at a slower pace. so in fact it is true that anyone who learns learning as a new player is not able to do much anything. ccp offered a few extra SP as a result on new characters. i think if ccp was to do anything at all, they might want to offer a tad more SP in addition to what they now offer. Please don't mess with learning any further. It's optional if players want to learn it or not. as for the matter of offering SP back in a situation where they did remove learning. I'd think it would be to complicated for them to figure it out personally. and if such an act did happen, they would make many users mad either by doing it at all, or by making mistakes trying to figure out how to pay the players back. in the end very few players would be happy as a result, and this would hurt their subscribers in the end. CCP has done an excellent job at not making current subscribers mad and leave, where other games have not done such. that's why Eve Online keeps getting bigger, rather than getting smaller. never make your customers mad in hopes of attracting future ones. it's the current base that's the most important. just the other day lucas arts announced they are working with Bioware on a new online Star Wars game. a few years ago Sony Online had the world in their hands with Star Wars Galaxies. they didn't listen to their current customers, and changed things too much. People left in anger, and their game never survived. It died almost over-night.
Bhender Amarr Freedom-Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.01 19:28:00 - [84] Originally by: Helen Hunts Cancel my investment for some cookie cutter +10 to stats crap? Uhh, NO. Learn and adapt, or get plowed under by those who do. Training learning skill si not "learning and adapting". It is just not training game skills so you can fulfill the time sink requirements. There is no learning, no adapting, and nothing to be proud of for having done it already. It is pure time sink. It is not a "choice", as the outcome of the decision will not effect the way you play one bit, only the speed at which you can train. The only choice is whether or not to sacrifice playing the game now, for skilling faster later. Essentially, what this amounts to is CCP saying "Hey, you cannot skill at the maximum rate until you hit yourself in the foot with this hammer for eight weeks. But just imagine how good it is going to feel when you stop!" Learning skills are lame. They were a mistake to put in the game, but are probably not really fixable now, since so many people are emotionally invested in them. The funny part is the outrage that will come if they actually jsut dumped them - all the angry players who will have lost...well, absolutely nothing. But they will be mad because THEY had to hit tehmselves in the foot with the hammer, and y god, so should everyone else!
Archimedes Lao Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.11.02 06:48:00 - [85] I say add a third level of learning skills. That would provide another option and some of us would do it just to be smarter, more perceptive, more persuasive, etc.
Ryuu Katsu	Posted - 2007.11.02 08:08:00 - [86] I'll have to say I actually kind of like the idea of the learning skills. They make the overall planning process in the early days more interesting and complex. You have to weight up things such as, do I want to train for that cruiser now or should I hold off a little longer to get that perception up a little more before I go ahead? Should I go for instant gain and train my lasers up now or can I do without for a while longer while I finish training my learning skill? It just adds a different line of thinking to the planning then just banging out skill after other in the relevant line of specialization. I like it and I'm a new player. Then there is that juggle for getting implants vs. affording that shiny new ship. :) True that a new player such as myself is probably best off starting with some basic ship and support skills to get up and running. And that is the way it should be, you get your "sealeggs" then throw in a couple of learning skills in the mix until you get up to level 3 or 4. After you are more established you can start looking at getting them all to 4 and getting those all important advanced learning skills. Bottom line is, I actually like the idea of the learning skills, even as a new player. Not to mention that by the time I've got most of them up to a higher level as I throw them into the gaps of everything else I'm training, it's going to feel just that much sweeter .
puff freak	Posted - 2007.11.02 20:29:00 - [87] Originally by: Archimedes Lao I say add a third level of learning skills. That would provide another option and some of us would do it just to be smarter, more perceptive, more persuasive, etc. Yes. ADD MORE LEARNING! go for it! either a 3rd line of learning skills, or a 6th box for everything! great idea.. you'd need advanced learning 4 to get them to work, just like the new adjustment they did to basic learning.
Lord Perdition	Posted - 2007.11.03 02:21:00 - [88] Well, learning skill is a privillege what we (new players) have got. If u dont like it, train something else. Thanks to those skills we have achived more things way faster than old players used to. Removing learning skills would be just as stupid as to max out all skills as soon as u become a member.
Stephen HB Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.	Posted - 2007.11.03 03:32:00 - [89] Originally by: puff freak Yes. ADD MORE LEARNING! go for it! either a 3rd line of learning skills, or a 6th box for everything! great idea. I don't think they should add more learning skills, except maybe a sixth advanced to round out the group. Simply because I (and many others) couldn't resist maxing them, six month timesink or not. ---------- Guide to character creation by Akita T
Gavyndrel Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.03 04:53:00 - [90] Edited by: Gavyndrel on 03/11/2007 04:55:23 Edited by: Gavyndrel on 03/11/2007 04:54:36 I've recently remade myself after coming back to eve and I no longer see the learning skills as this huge roadblock to "fun". It is not difficult to mix training learnings up with training skills you will actually use to have "fun" with. There seems to be this all or nothing mentality that pervades the minds of alot of veterans when they start talking to new players about how they should conduct their first few weeks to months of life in the game. Do NOT straight train your learnings or you WILL get bored, period. Most veterans that advocate this also have access to alt accounts where they can do this and still have fun on a main account. My biggest piece of advice to a newer player would be this. Do not think about training any skill to level 5 before at least having trained the learnings for the associated attributes to basic 4 and adv 3. This takes hardly any time at all and is well worth the investment. Mix up your learnings with your skill training and try to focus a bit on what skill sets you want to train in first so you aren't spread out all over the place with your skill training. I personally wait to have basics to 4 and adv to 3 before I train ANYTHING from level 4 to 5. Too many people jump in the game and try to rush to the supposed "super fun" skills they want to train which typically require a few skills trained to 5 and then see how long the skills take without learnings, and then with learnings, and see learnings as this completely annoying roadblock. Patience people!



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