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I just don't get why railguns are so horrible.

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Spacy Tracy	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:44:00 - [1] Edited by: Spacy Tracy on 14/09/2007 03:46:52 Can someone explain exactly what it takes to get railguns to be worth a damn on a battleship? I've got a test Megathron loaded with 6 best named 425mm rails. Antimatter ammo. Optimal range. All hybrid gunnery skills at a humble 3. Gunnery at 5. Firing on my alt account with a Raven running a plausible T2 omni tank. The damage output is laughable. I can fire on the Raven for maybe 5 minutes before he's down to maybe 1/3 shield. And a quick boost with an X-Large brings it back no problem. I just simply do not understand why the rails are so weak. I could pour another 70 days getting into Large Hybrid Specialization, but for what? Oooh, maybe double the dps under ideal circumstances? My alt character with 2 weeks of torpedo training crushes that without blinking. What gives? edit: lol. I just tried firing on the Raven with the hardeners -off-. If I had a cap injector I would be able to tank the dps indefinitely using a named X-large booster. Bah. Just bah.
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:46:00 - [2] T1 guns+bad skills=low dps,whereas missiles are more plausible,however if you max your skills out and try against a raven with maxed skills you'll laugh at him. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Spacy Tracy	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:49:00 - [3] The best named T1 guns have the same output as the T2 guns. And at optimal range, T1 antimatter has a higher damage value than the best T2 stuff. My skills are mediocre, sure. But as I said, even if I jacked everything up and maybe doubled (I doubt it would be that high) the dps, it would still be ho-hum.
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:56:00 - [4] The advantage of being 50km away offsets low dps. At least, low if you're trying to fit a tank and aren't using T2. Then it's actually fairly good. T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers \| Eve GUI Tweaks
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:56:00 - [5] A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.14 03:57:00 - [6] Originally by: Spacy Tracy The best named T1 guns have the same output as the T2 guns. And at optimal range, T1 antimatter has a higher damage value than the best T2 stuff. My skills are mediocre, sure. But as I said, even if I jacked everything up and maybe doubled (I doubt it would be that high) the dps, it would still be ho-hum. Wrong. T2 guns outdamage best named w/ spec skill at 4. Faction antimatter gives an additional 15%, and w/o your gunnery skills maxed out, you're going to be doing crap damage anyway. Missiles have a huge advantage in that you can tune your damage type per target and have higher effective DPS vs. specific tanks. Not to mention no tracking and no damage fall off with range. If you want high damage output, switch to short range guns (blasters). Even then, you're still going to get garbage DPS until you get your skills way up there. [Video]Blood Corsairs - Day One
Andre Ricard Gallente Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:00:00 - [7] Originally by: goodby4u A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. I highly doubt you'd get that much with spike and 1 damage mod. Hell, even nuet II blasters don't do much more than that with AM and no damage mod) 1010011010
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Andre Ricard Originally by: goodby4u A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. I highly doubt you'd get that much with spike and 1 damage mod. Hell, even nuet II blasters don't do much more than that with AM and no damage mod) I dont fly the ship but according to eve fitting tool you do... __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Arana Tellen Gallente The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:12:00 - [9] Originally by: goodby4u Originally by: Andre Ricard Originally by: goodby4u A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. I highly doubt you'd get that much with spike and 1 damage mod. Hell, even nuet II blasters don't do much more than that with AM and no damage mod) I dont fly the ship but according to eve fitting tool you do... Yeah you can get greater than 578DPS with the blasters on a deimos :S --------------------------------- Core 2 Duo E4300 1.8ghz @ 3ghz, 2GB Gskill DDR2 5400 @ 800mhh 4-4-4-12, Abit fatality mATX F-I90HD @ 334mhz, 8800GTS 320mb 2x250GB 7200.10s Raid 0, Vista 64 Home.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:33:00 - [10] Originally by: Spacy Tracy I just simply do not understand why the rails are so weak. I could pour another 70 days getting into Large Hybrid Specialization, but for what? Oooh, maybe double the dps under ideal circumstances? My alt character with 2 weeks of torpedo training crushes that without blinking. I recommend that you input your setup and your skills into for example EFT (Eve Fitting Tool?) and then test it vs a T2 fitted one with all skills to level 5. The difference is quite extreme. The percentages from each skill might not seem like much, but they add up. Especially skills like rapid fire and Large Hybrid skills, plus the Specialization skills that only apply to T2 weapons. There is a reason why the Megathron is one of the most popular fleet snipers. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.14 04:36:00 - [11] With all skills maxed and using a standard fleet-fitted Mega, the large rail spec skill applied to T2 425's adds about 40 DPS and about 300 per volley with navy antimatter over what best named can do. For a sniperthron in a fleet, the T2-fitted thron will do much better than a T1-fitted, just because Iron sucks compared to Spike. Whether that's worth it or not for your situation is up to you. The reason rails seem to suck compared to cruise missiles is that a rail doesn't hit for the same damage each time. It can do "barely scratches, lightly hits, hits, well aimed at, places an excellent hit, perfectly strikes or just misses entirely", all of which depends on range, skills, transversal and how many dogs are baying at the moon in Kentucky. A missile hits for full damage, minus the target's resists + speed + sig radius. If your alt (or main) was sitting still in the rail boat, then the missiles hit for pretty much max damage every time. -- This Space For Rent
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.14 05:18:00 - [12] First off, rails are extreme range weapons, they're not supposed to do any significant damage up close and personal, and you're not supposed to be firing them within optimal range of antimatter in the first place. Second, were you actually HITTING the target the whole time, and did you have ANY MagFieldStabs on ? Third, Mega has 7 turrets not 6, what the heck, can't you find the grid to fit it fully ? Last, what's your Gall.BS skill level ? Is that L3 too, or just L2 ? 425mm proto is x3.3 base damage mod with 9.563 sec RoF. Antimatter L is 28+20=48 damage. With L5 gunnery, L3 large hybrid, L3 rapid fire, L3 surgical strike, L2 gall BS and no damage mods, you get 3.3 * 1.15 * 1.09 * 1.1 * 48 = 218.40984 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.88 = 7.573896 sec RoF, which means (with just 6 guns) a pathetic 173 DPS. Now, make that L4 skills including ship, fit the seventh gun too, add a MFS-II, and you get 3.3 * 1.2 * 1.12 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 48 = 281.014272 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.84 * 0.895 = 6.47051706 sec RoF, which means (with full 7 guns) a more respectable 304 DPS Train up all gunnery skills to L5, ship skill too, get T2 guns and L4 specialisation, add TWO MFS-II, and you get 3.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.25 * 1.08 * 1.1 * 1.087 * 48 = 367.5522015 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.895 * 0.90865 = 5.59946221578 sec RoF, which comes out as almost 460 DPS. Now swap out that Antimatter ammo for navy Antimatter (32.2+23=55.2 damage), add the THIRD MFS-II, train the specialisation skill to L5 too, plug in a G2-Delta (-5% ROF) and a ZGL1000 (+5% damage), and you get 3.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.087 * 1.057 * 1.05 * 55.2 = 477.804333987028125 damage/shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.895 * 0.90865 * 0.94015 * 0.95 = 5.00111768205728865 sec RoF, which is, surprisingly enough, almost 669 DPS. So... now compare 173 with 669. Is that a "Oooh, maybe double the dps under ideal circumstances" ?!? _ EVE GOLDEN RULES \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Krulla Minmatar Miner Protection Guild	Posted - 2007.09.14 06:30:00 - [13] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 14/09/2007 05:29:11 First off, rails are extreme range weapons, they're not supposed to do any significant damage up close and personal, and you're not supposed to be firing them within optimal range of antimatter in the first place. Second, were you actually HITTING the target the whole time, and did you have ANY MagFieldStabs on ? Third, Mega has 7 turrets not 6, what the heck, can't you find the grid to fit it fully ? Last, what's your Gall.BS skill level ? Is that L3 too, or just L2 ? 425mm proto is x3.3 base damage mod with 9.563 sec RoF. Antimatter L is 28+20=48 damage. With L5 gunnery, L3 large hybrid, L3 rapid fire, L3 surgical strike, L2 gall BS and no damage mods, you get 3.3 * 1.15 * 1.09 * 1.1 * 48 = 218.40984 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.88 = 7.573896 sec RoF, which means (with just 6 guns) a pathetic 173 DPS. Now, make that L4 skills including ship, fit the seventh gun too, add a MFS-II, and you get 3.3 * 1.2 * 1.12 * 1.2 * 1.1 * 48 = 281.014272 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.84 * 0.895 = 6.47051706 sec RoF, which means (with full 7 guns) a more respectable 304 DPS Train up all gunnery skills to L5, ship skill too, get T2 guns and L4 specialisation, add TWO MFS-II, and you get 3.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.25 * 1.08 * 1.1 * 1.087 * 48 = 367.5522015 average damage per shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.895 * 0.90865 = 5.59946221578 sec RoF, which comes out as almost 460 DPS. Now swap out that Antimatter ammo for navy Antimatter (32.2+23=55.2 damage), add the THIRD MFS-II, train the specialisation skill to L5 too, plug in a G2-Delta (-5% ROF) and a ZGL1000 (+5% damage), and you get 3.3 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.087 * 1.057 * 1.05 * 55.2 = 477.804333987028125 damage/shot with 9.563 * 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.895 * 0.90865 * 0.94015 * 0.95 = 5.00111768205728865 sec RoF, which is, surprisingly enough, almost 669 DPS. So... now compare 173 with 669. Is that a "Oooh, maybe double the dps under ideal circumstances" ?!? And that at an optimal range of around 35km, nevertheless. Hey, how about we add some more insult to injury while we're at it ? I mean, you do have 125 m^3 of dronebay, right ? How about 5x Garde II with maxed-out drone skills too ? They have an optimal around 30km too then. That's 5 * 2 * 1.25 * 1.92 * 50 / 4 = 300 DPS. Hey, cool, just the DRONES would deal almost double the damege of your original setup ! So... how's 969 DPS sound to you now ? Oh snap.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.14 07:13:00 - [14] Can't beat the Akita.
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 08:05:00 - [15] yeah, as has been pointed out quite clearly by Akita, success with Rails is VERY dependant on skills, considerably more so than missiles. Prospector Class
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.14 09:12:00 - [16] There is also the issue of tanking making even small dps increases a huge boost. Say that raven tanks 500 effective dps against kin/therm, and you do 600 dps. Effectively you hurt him only with 100 dps. Now if you increase your damage by just 50 dps, it is only 8% extra dps, but you will hurt him with 50% more damage as you now get 150 dps past his tank. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Scaramunga Scaramai Amarr Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.09.14 09:20:00 - [17] Originally by: Spacy Tracy The best named T1 guns have the same output as the T2 guns. And at optimal range, T1 antimatter has a higher damage value than the best T2 stuff. I lol'd irl and it got me in trouble! EPIC WIN in this thread!
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.14 10:55:00 - [18] All long range turret weapons have way to many drawbacks to use them effectively in a lot of situations. I would go with close range weapons in almost every case.
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:01:00 - [19] Originally by: Spacy Tracy The best named T1 guns have the same output as the T2 guns. And at optimal range, T1 antimatter has a higher damage value than the best T2 stuff. My skills are mediocre, sure. But as I said, even if I jacked everything up and maybe doubled (I doubt it would be that high) the dps, it would still be ho-hum. No it doesn't Best t2 stuff over a char with lvl3 in all gunnery skills: 8% higher dmg mod from large rail spec 10% higher dmg mod from large hybrid lvl5 8% faster rof due to level5 rapid firing 3% more DPS from surgical strike 10% more DPS from faction ammo So in all you are lacking around 40% DPS compared to a tech2 fitted character (more if the target isn't stationary). --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:19:00 - [20] Edited by: Amy Wang on 14/09/2007 11:19:07 Rails are the best long range weapon out there hands down, best range, best tracking, good dps. Comparing it to torps however is wrong because a) torps are short range weapons, compare it to cruise and you see a different picture b) long range weapons dont excel at 30-40km normally because of tracking issues, use them at higher ranges, better off with blasters if you go short range and those will outdamage torps by far c) specific missiles are easier to skill for then guns, so 2 week torp training > 2 week hybrid training
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:36:00 - [21] Originally by: Shevar Originally by: Spacy Tracy The best named T1 guns have the same output as the T2 guns. And at optimal range, T1 antimatter has a higher damage value than the best T2 stuff. My skills are mediocre, sure. But as I said, even if I jacked everything up and maybe doubled (I doubt it would be that high) the dps, it would still be ho-hum. No it doesn't Best t2 stuff over a char with lvl3 in all gunnery skills: 8% higher dmg mod from large rail spec 10% higher dmg mod from large hybrid lvl5 8% faster rof due to level5 rapid firing 3% more DPS from surgical strike 10% more DPS from faction ammo So in all you are lacking around 40% DPS compared to a tech2 fitted character (more if the target isn't stationary). Your math is a bit off :P +8% damage from spec 4 instead of 0 +8.7% damage from large 5 instead of 3 -9.1% RoF from rapid 5 instead of 3 +5.5% damage from surg 5 instead of 3 +15% damage from faction ammo So all in all this would actually give +56% dps. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Niestrenna	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:39:00 - [22] Errm, don't these boni also apply to eachother? that would mean significantly more than 56%
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:41:00 - [23] Think rails are okay once you get your skills up. Wrecks at around 1200 ish which is pretty fair
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:53:00 - [24] Also, the best thing about railguns EXTREME RANGE A Rokh with Long Range Targeting V, 2 T2 sensor boosters (yes, targeting range IS an issue), sharpshooting V, Caldari BS V, T2 425mm railguns, Spike L, and a couple T2 tracking enhancers can push his optimum range out beyond 249km... and guess where sensor range is capped at? And yeah-many other fallacies have been pointed out. First, guns are highly skill-dependent. Second, you're comparing a short-range weapon (torps) to a long-range weapon (rails). Third, you're not supposed to use railguns at short range. Spike L is your friend (and if not, iridium does quite nicely). ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.09.14 11:56:00 - [25] Originally by: goodby4u A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. A Cruise Raven will do better than that, according to EVEGeek (though I can't verify their calcs). Raw DPS is more than 350 without damage mods IIRC - which isn't bad at 0-250km range. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.14 12:05:00 - [26] Originally by: Niestrenna Errm, don't these boni also apply to eachother? that would mean significantly more than 56% Of course they do, thats why it is 56%. If you just add them up like so many math-legasthenics do, you end up with significantly less. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Jacob Holland Originally by: goodby4u A mega with 7x railgun 2s with spike ammo and 1 damage mod give you 578 dps,whereas the raven with 6x cruise with paradise(or whatever t1 cruise you want)gives 335 dps with 1 damage mod,400 with 2 and 450 with 3. A Cruise Raven will do better than that, according to EVEGeek (though I can't verify their calcs). Raw DPS is more than 350 without damage mods IIRC - which isn't bad at 0-250km range. EFT says its 335...And as far as accuracy ive checked it and it works without 10 dps,i was surprised to see it do so little aswell. __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Arkyk	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T <snip> VERY nice analysis, and highly informative (especially for a noob like me). I award you a cookie! ---------------- Mostly harmless.
Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:17:00 - [29] Originally by: Niestrenna Errm, don't these boni also apply to eachother? that would mean significantly more than 56% the word boni does not exist - maybe you mean beni? a river flowing NE from W Bolivia to the Madeira River. ab. 600 mi. (965 km) long. or maybe bani? a Romanian coin, the 100th part of a leu. or maybe you mean bonuses? something extra,hmm it looks like you must mean bonuses, We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.
Mephistophilis hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.14 14:24:00 - [30] I felt the same when i started with rails, but 10mill gunnery sp's later and i'm roling in the isles My pure dmg mega with 425mm II's with faction ammo and mag stab II's does insain damage! Keep on training

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