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The common grunt in the Great War

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Illaria POS War Deserters	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:57:00 - [1] Dear CAOD reader, perhaps you've always wondered how it would be to join one of the great war faring alliances and experience first hand the drama and excitement of flying with Tolon, MACTEP or SirMolle and fighting for the supremacy over 0.0. To see the clash of mighty fleets like in this Revelation II trailer and get your share of the seemingly endless riches that those entities hold sway over. As someone who was a member of Goonfleet/Goonswarm let me assure you: reading about the "Great War" is much more exciting, than actually fighting it. So before you buy an SA account, learn Russian or sell your soul to Molle you should really think well about it. I've joined Goonfleet a good 2 months ago, after being enticed into it by the promise of "instant 0.0 action, even for low SP chars." And they haven't lied, you get into 0.0 instantly, just the action part left much to be desired. The "Great War", this epic clash of super powers, turned out to be the worst time sink in MMO history ever. Let me explain the Great War from the perspective of the common pilot. A typical OP announcement would read so: 01:00 EVE, STRATEGIC OP AGAINST BOB, FORM UP IN 77s rah rah, need to (insert phrase of sexual abuse or bodily function here) BoB. rah, rah, have to keep on pushing our offensive. Bring BS, if possible. Be there, it'll be epic. STRATEGIC OP, is in reality a code word for POS shooting. Which means you'll probably camp a gate at first until dreads have cleared up the POS guns, then you may to warp to the POS to shoot at the tower. You can spend entire weeks doing so. Some has described it this way: "POS shooting is like mining without the financial benefit". If the enemy really turns up in person, i.e. brings ships, a funny little game will commence called blue balling. In simple terms blue balling means either sitting inside the bubble of your own POS or blobbing a gate, so that the enemy fleet would rather not risk the grid loading lag upon jumping in, until the enemy gets bored and flies back home. This is then called a strategic victory, if a POS gets actually blown up it was an epic victory, and two or more destroyed POS are called an enemy "failure cascade". It's important to know the terminology to decipher your own propaganda. Speaking of... I don't know how it looks on the BoB side of things, but as an ordinary Goon grunt you get so little information about the big picture of things, that reading CAOD is actually a richer and more reliable source then what's being posted in the "War room" the GoonSwarm strategic forum. On the rare occasions that real pew pew happens it's so lagged up that you can only determine the outcome of a battle by the kill mails you receive. You don't really actually see it happen. Just click somewhere on your overview and hope for the best. This brings us to the question why we, the pilots on either side, let ourselves suffer through this. It's not like we'd profit from this. Quite the contrary, being on the war path is an expensive hobby, ships and ammo can get expensive in 0.0 and you go through a lot of them. The war is also not waged to make you rich in the future, as the big alliances already claim more than enough space for the ratting and mining purposes of their members. It shouldn't be about the material reasons in anyway, we should do it for fun right? It's a game after all, and territorial warfare is supposed to be the endgame of EVE. Well excuse me, camping gates, shooting POS or station services for days and weeks on end is not fun. And there's no end in sight; there's always another system to siege, another POS to shoot, another battle to be avoided. We the common pilots don't "fight" this war, for our own pleasure. We toil solely for the egos of the big alliances leaders who relish in lording over their virtual empires and grow their e-peen by adding another system to it. Pilots think about what you're fighting for and decide if it's really worth your time.
Andargor theWise Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:03:00 - [2] Change alliance, I know we've been throwing ships into the mix just for the sheer fun of it. (and we're drunk, too) - Got grief?
Lemptie Gallente Glass House	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:07:00 - [3] Good read all true. Leaders play the game ,the rest are canon flodder.
Nekumi Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:10:00 - [4] It's pretty sad but true that if you don't have the fortitude to play this game the way it currently is then it is very hard to achieve much in 0.0. It's sad if you really believe this is for any single individuals ego but at least there are alternatives. You could have found them in Goonfleet if you had but looked and you can still find them in other places in the game.
Rhaegor Stormborn Pestilent Industries Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:12:00 - [5] When engagements do occur, and are somewhat lag free and playable for all parties involved, it is fun and worth all the sitting around that occurs. But yes, that account of 0.0 warfare is pretty close to the truth for the average casual player. Rhaegor Stormborn Fleet Admiral - Pestilent Industries Amalgamated [PIA] Recruitment Thread
Nahia Senne Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:12:00 - [6] Originally by: Andargor theWise Change alliance, I know we've been throwing ships into the mix just for the sheer fun of it. (and we're drunk, too) I can attest to this. IAC is a decent and entertaining alliance to go to.
ishkabibble Black Avatar	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:17:00 - [7] Originally by: Illaria Greatest post ive seen in months /Signed ----------------------------------------- Never underestimate the predictability of stupidity - anonymous
lolzor	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:17:00 - [8] Amen.
Sacul Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:19:00 - [9] Thats why wargod allways makes us fit 1 deep core mining laser! The stone age didn't end because we ran out of stones!
Cyriel Longinus XERCORE	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:22:00 - [10] loved it.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:29:00 - [11] Originally by: Illaria Pilots think about what you're fighting for and decide if it's really worth your time. I am sure many pilots do think about why they join the war. For some it might be to get into some 0.0 action, others might have set themselves up nicely in a region that is being fought over and do not want to relocate or be dominated by BoB. These are personal reasons and surely important enough to enter the war. However, the larger reasons for the war affect most of the EVE 0.0 population. These reasons are neither mere territorial gain, nor are they solely related to the e-peen of some alliance leaders. If you look at the bigger picture you will find BoB used to be growing in power at a concerning rate in the past. The climax was the destruction of ASCN. Since then, many EVE citicens have realized that it is time to join forces and take up arms against a potential monopolistic EVE, in which the sole keeper of true 0.0 power would be BoB and MC. Many do not like this vision of the future, in which they can only stay in 0.0 at the mercy of their lords, and act as their meatsheelds and source of income at the same time. EVE War I - Quick Overview (Feb/March)
Rail Duke Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:30:00 - [12] you see goonfleet is a lot like middle class candle-makers
Shamis Orzoz Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:31:00 - [13] I blame siege mode. Because dreads cannot move when in siege, all pos shooting ops become numbers games. Because of this each side brings as many as possible, and this leads to lots of camping, sitting around doing nothing, and lagging out.
Tiggus Maximus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:31:00 - [14] Yep, sounds like POS warfare to me. Thankfully we have enough members willing to partake in it for the greater good to keep things moving, large amounts of members find their fun in small gang combat, production, mining, you name it. It's your choice as to how you spend your time ingame, if you didn't learn that while in goonfleet then you really didn't try very hard. If we were ever pushed back to SP and all of us POSwar hating members showed up to defend because we had to it would be quite the sight though.
Toffles GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:34:00 - [15] Edited by: Toffles on 17/09/2007 17:35:21 This isn't really so much of a "great war" problem as a problem with the 0.0 territorial warfare portion of the game in general. CCP put in station services and pos modules to spice things up and give non capital pilot ships something to do. They kinda botched it though because they all have ridiculously high hp and in the end I think it was a real mistake. Way too much of this game is spent watching a stationary object's health bar slowly turn more red or less red depending on whether you are shooting or repairing. It's just not very mentally stimulating or fun. That said there's still fun to be had when the enemy comes to defend their space or when all the hard work pays off and you're the proud new owner of a new region. I personally enjoy pos warfare but I know few people feel the same way, and agree it could be made more fun.
Amerame Section XIII	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz I blame siege mode. Because dreads cannot move when in siege, all pos shooting ops become numbers games. Because of this each side brings as many as possible, and this leads to lots of camping, sitting around doing nothing, and lagging out. You could be right, it would be a lot more difficult to defend large area with siege mod being 1 minute ou 30 seconds cycle, than with 10 minutes cycles, especialy jump titan, jump bridge and huge capital fleets. Making it safer to reinforce PoS would nerf larger alliances without really hurting smaller alliance (that wouldn't have to run 50 jumps to save 1 pos here and then another there). Anything that make it harder to defend a large territory while not making it harder to defend a small one is good imo.
Wesley Baird Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:47:00 - [17] Originally by: Illaria It's a game after all, and territorial warfare is supposed to be the endgame of EVE.[/Quote] Who says?? POS warfare sucks and is for the most part incredibly boring...The only saving grace of 0.0 is skirmish level pvp, the rest of everything attached to it ratting, mining, logistics etc is well ZZZZZZZZZ...
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:02:00 - [18] Originally by: Tiggus Maximus Yep, sounds like POS warfare to me. Thankfully we have enough members willing to partake in it for the greater good to keep things moving, large amounts of members find their fun in small gang combat, production, mining, you name it. It's your choice as to how you spend your time ingame, if you didn't learn that while in goonfleet then you really didn't try very hard. If we were ever pushed back to SP and all of us POSwar hating members showed up to defend because we had to it would be quite the sight though. Thats perhaps the problem, when you are doing VERY boring things day after day in a GAME for some 'greater good' there is a design flaw. Its not like you are holding back the real barbarian hordes in some outpost so your family can live in peace, thats a 'greater good', no you are spending your free time being bored, so some others not as bored can do what they want to do in game in relative peace. The problem with alliance warfare and eve is you spend very little time playing the game, and then when you do get that epic fight, it lags so badly to remove all fun from it.
SATAN BURN EDEN	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:02:00 - [19] And people wonder why corps like us do what we do. We don't like POS warfare We don't like endless blob action We don't like pointless victories or pointless losses, in either case in the end you gain control of a few pixels in an imaginary universe Last but not least we don't put up with any leadership telling us what to do or how to do it Anyways hope you find what it is you are looking for out of EvE.
Illaria POS War Deserters	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:10:00 - [20] Edited by: Illaria on 17/09/2007 18:15:11 Originally by: Victor Vision If you look at the bigger picture you will find BoB used to be growing in power at a concerning rate in the past. The climax was the destruction of ASCN. Since then, many EVE citicens have realized that it is time to join forces and take up arms against a potential monopolistic EVE, in which the sole keeper of true 0.0 power would be BoB and MC. Many do not like this vision of the future, in which they can only stay in 0.0 at the mercy of their lords, and act as their meatsheelds and source of income at the same time. This may have been true in the past, but things have changed. Does anyone really think that with the current game mechanics BoB would be able to pull of another "Blitz Krieg"? Even when the "Coalition" would completely cease defending their territory and would only keep fueling their POSes it would take many weeks for the "Alliance" to conquer it. There was perhaps a time when this battle was really about the life and death of alliances, nowadays it's only about very slowly attrition. Also the political landscape has changed. Nowadays the "Alliance" faces much more enemies than it used to have which makes conquering and and holding large sways of the galaxy much more difficult. BoB is still a major and dangerous power, but not really an imminent threat that would justify all the effort and negative emotion currently thrown at it. It's really an ego thing. Somewhere down the line important people have been treated condescendingly by BoB ("There are no Goons") and now they command their troops in this war of attrition to get revenge for some forum slights they may have suffered. Originally by: Tiggus Maximus If we were ever pushed back to SP and all of us POSwar hating members showed up to defend because we had to it would be quite the sight though. Defense of one's homeland is always a different thing, then engaging somewhere in the middle of nowhere. Of course the motivation to defend Scalding Pass is much higher than sieging some RISE POS or shooting RMF station services. It's not exactly that RISE and RMF pose a deadly threat to the Coaltion, that would justify all this POS sieging crap. P.S. This isn't meant to be anti Goon. I question the motives of BoB & Co. as much as those of the Coaltion, it's just that I come from GoonSwarm, so more to say on this side of the war. BoBs holy crusade against Goons in the name of a better EVE community is as deranged as the Goons nerd rage against everything aligned with BoB. It really all comes down the bruised egos of the major players and who posted what years ago.
Lowanaera Amarr Paladin Imperium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:15:00 - [21] In my opinion, the lag, the waiting, the general grind and dullness, is all worth it for that one special fight where for some reason the lag is manageable and the sides aren't too unbalanced and everything just clicks into place and it's beautiful. Most recently had that happen in FAT two weeks ago with an epic multi-hour running sniper engagement at the station. It's hard to achieve that, it doesn't come often or reliably, and you have to put up with a lot of garbage in the meantime, but those moments are just too sweet to give it all up and stop fighting.
Tiggus Maximus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Jenna Shame Thats perhaps the problem, when you are doing VERY boring things day after day in a GAME for some 'greater good' there is a design flaw. Its not like you are holding back the real barbarian hordes in some outpost so your family can live in peace, thats a 'greater good', no you are spending your free time being bored, so some others not as bored can do what they want to do in game in relative peace. The problem with alliance warfare and eve is you spend very little time playing the game, and then when you do get that epic fight, it lags so badly to remove all fun from it. I don't disagree, POS warfare is boring and broken in my opinion. I do disagree that the OP couldn't have found ways to participate in the great war outside of shooting POS'. There are many places/ways we are waging war and only one of them involves being on the frontline shooting POS structures. Active pilots are what will win a war, and they all contribute how they best see fit.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:20:00 - [23] I know. --- Join BH-DL Important Skills
Zagum Darkfin Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:28:00 - [24] I will break my orders to reply. We play this game to shoot space things and make them blow up. Now what comes with it and after it is icing on the cake. From the alliance point of view (my personal take) is that we love to PVP. Whenever or However we get a chance to PVP, it makes the game interesting and challenging. POS warfare is boring, I will admit that, but what comes out from the POS warfare are large epic battles and fights. We want to fight. Some people want to mine and hug a POS all day, to each his own way. EVE is designed for PVP first most. The richness and drama of player driven content through PVP is what makes this game successful. Its not mining, its not agenting missions, its not selling stuff, its not npcing or hauling minerals. PVP makes people defend what they have and/or take what they want so that all the other activities can happen to some degree. If you don't like player verse player combat, stay in Empire like the good majority of the EVE player base. Bottom line, we just like shooting stuff. ..i..
Brunswick2 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Sacul Thats why wargod allways makes us fit 1 deep core mining laser! Though, i still don't understand why he makes us nano and stab up our fleet bs
Faceless Pokemon THe X Spies	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:34:00 - [26] Edited by: Faceless Pokemon on 17/09/2007 18:33:57 Originally by: Illaria snip whine whine whine, if you don't like it go do something else
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:40:00 - [27] Hehehehe, good read.. ------------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:40:00 - [28] That may be the state of affairs on the Great War at the moment, but the only reason it is there now is because people stood up for their freedom and took on Bob. If the Coalition were to stop shooting now, do you really think that Bob would play all nice from now on out? I don't. Therefore the war needs to continue and Bob needs to suffer mightily. POS warfare is the only way to do that. I do think that other strategies are needed. For example, multiple Fleets of about 50 ships and 5 Capitals engaging several Bob systems and POS's at once, with a few 100-man roaming gangs patrolling the general area. While some may be engaged, most will not be, resulting in lag-free unopposed shooting of multiple towers. The real reason Bob is not yet dead is Lag, not the willpower or firepower of the opponents arrayed against them.
Toffles GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 18:40:00 - [29] Edited by: Toffles on 17/09/2007 18:43:51 Edited by: Toffles on 17/09/2007 18:43:34 Originally by: Illaria Edited by: Illaria on 17/09/2007 18:15:11 This may have been true in the past, but things have changed. Does anyone really think that with the current game mechanics BoB would be able to pull of another "Blitz Krieg"? Even when the "Coalition" would completely cease defending their territory and would only keep fueling their POSes it would take many weeks for the "Alliance" to conquer it. There was perhaps a time when this battle was really about the life and death of alliances, nowadays it's only about very slowly attrition. Also the political landscape has changed. Nowadays the "Alliance" faces much more enemies than it used to have which makes conquering and and holding large sways of the galaxy much more difficult. BoB is still a major and dangerous power, but not really an imminent threat that would justify all the effort and negative emotion currently thrown at it. It's really an ego thing. Somewhere down the line important people have been treated condescendingly by BoB ("There are no Goons") and now they command their troops in this war of attrition to get revenge for some forum slights they may have suffered. I really don't think you understand 0.0 warfare as much as you think you do. The SoCo and ASCN had the same mentality as you. They thought having so many regions and stations would mean being conquered would take far too long and be far too difficult and total annihilation just looked oh so far off. Look where they ended up. Really, if people just let BoB do their thing they would quickly take the south, occupy it with brainwashed pets, and move on to the drone regions. It's only "slow attrition" because both sides are putting so much effort in. If one side just decided to stop playing pos warfare I can assure you they would lose their space very quickly. Omist was taken in 5 days because we didn't defend it. Even the most fortified systems can be taken down quickly if they aren't defended. We've cleared systems with over 30 deathstars in like 3-4 days and I'm sure bob could do the same, especially if MC was helping. So what if it takes bob a few weeks to get through it all, are you only planning on playing a few more weeks? Thanks for the insight though in how the large carebear alliances fell, it was this short sighted mindset you have.
DoctorGonzo Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.17 19:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Princess Jodi The real reason Bob is not yet dead is Lag, not the willpower or firepower of the opponents arrayed against them. Personally I think BoB would do much better than they are currently with reduced lag and not the other way round.

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