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Warming hits 'tipping point'


Siberia feels the heat It's a frozen peat bog the size of France and Germany combined, contains billions of tonnes of greenhouse gas and, for the first time since the ice age, it is melting

A vast expanse of western Sibera is undergoing an unprecedented thaw that could dramatically increase the rate of global warming, climate scientists warn today.

Researchers who have recently returned from the region found that an area of permafrost spanning a million square kilometres - the size of France and Germany combined - has started to melt for the first time since it formed 11,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.


The area, which covers the entire sub-Arctic region of western Siberia, is the world's largest frozen peat bog and scientists fear that as it thaws, it will release billions of tonnes of methane, a greenhouse gas 20 times more potent than carbon dioxide, into the atmosphere.

It is a scenario climate scientists have feared since first identifying "tipping points" - delicate thresholds where a slight rise in the Earth's temperature can cause a dramatic change in the environment that itself triggers a far greater increase in global temperatures.

The discovery was made by Sergei Kirpotin at Tomsk State University in western Siberia and Judith Marquand at Oxford University and is reported in New Scientist today.

The researchers found that what was until recently a barren expanse of frozen peat is turning into a broken landscape of mud and lakes, some more than a kilometre across.

Dr Kirpotin told the magazine the situation was an "ecological landslide that is probably irreversible and is undoubtedly connected to climatic warming". He added that the thaw had probably begun in the past three or four years.

Climate scientists yesterday reacted with alarm to the finding, and warned that predictions of future global temperatures would have to be revised upwards.

"When you start messing around with these natural systems, you can end up in situations where it's unstoppable. There are no brakes you can apply," said David Viner, a senior scientist at the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia.

"This is a big deal because you can't put the permafrost back once it's gone. The causal effect is human activity and it will ramp up temperatures even more than our emissions are doing."

In its last major report in 2001, the intergovernmental panel on climate change predicted a rise in global temperatures of 1.4C-5.8C between 1990 and 2100, but the estimate only takes account of global warming driven by known greenhouse gas emissions.

"These positive feedbacks with landmasses weren't known about then. They had no idea how much they would add to global warming," said Dr Viner.

Western Siberia is heating up faster than anywhere else in the world, having experienced a rise of some 3C in the past 40 years. Scientists are particularly concerned about the permafrost, because as it thaws, it reveals bare ground which warms up more quickly than ice and snow, and so accelerates the rate at which the permafrost thaws.

Siberia's peat bogs have been producing methane since they formed at the end of the last ice age, but most of the gas had been trapped in the permafrost. According to Larry Smith, a hydrologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, the west Siberian peat bog could hold some 70bn tonnes of methane, a quarter of all of the methane stored in the ground around the world.

The permafrost is likely to take many decades at least to thaw, so the methane locked within it will not be released into the atmosphere in one burst, said Stephen Sitch, a climate scientist at the Met Office's Hadley Centre in Exeter.

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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What's even worse is that plenty of people still believe that global warming is fictional.


If I remember correctly, we've got about 30 years to make serious corrections before it becomes impossible for humans to prevent a major climate change. It's probably closer to 25 now...

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Originally by: Liz Kali

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Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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Originally by: TheDagda

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*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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What's even worse is that plenty of people still believe that global warming is fictional.


If I remember correctly, we've got about 30 years to make serious corrections before it becomes impossible for humans to prevent a major climate change. It's probably closer to 25 now...

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Over dramaticized rather than fictional. We have more to fear from our nuclear powerplants waste than we do from the CO2 we release from combustion.

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Quote:

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Hell, all the cows in the world release approximately 1/5th of the worlds entire greenhouse gases. Cows ffs. If it ever comes down to it, we'll make artificial ozone and dump it into the atmosphere. But thats a real big if.

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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What's even worse is that plenty of people still believe that global warming is fictional.


If I remember correctly, we've got about 30 years to make serious corrections before it becomes impossible for humans to prevent a major climate change. It's probably closer to 25 now...

---

Over dramaticized rather than fictional. We have more to fear from our nuclear powerplants waste than we do from the CO2 we release from combustion. Hell, all the cows in the world release approximately 1/5th of the worlds entire greenhouse gases. Cows ffs. If it ever comes down to it, we'll make artificial ozone and dump it into the atmosphere. But thats a real big if.

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I disagree - already we're seeing huge temperature increases (relative to a historical timescale) in many parts of the world

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Over dramaticized rather than fictional. We have more to fear from our nuclear powerplants waste than we do from the CO2 we release from combustion. Hell, all the cows in the world release approximately 1/5th of the worlds entire greenhouse gases. Cows ffs. If it ever comes down to it, we'll make artificial ozone and dump it into the atmosphere. But thats a real big if.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Global warming is all about scare tactics...

We're not going to kill the planet.

We may make it tough for some species to live on this planet, but the Earth will be just fine...

Everyone just calm down...

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Global warming is all about scare tactics...

We're not going to kill the planet.

We may make it tough for some species to live on this planet, but the Earth will be just fine...

Everyone just calm down...

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Earth may be fine, but I want my kids to be fine too.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 19:41:04
Global warming is all about scare tactics...

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We're not going to kill the planet.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 19:41:04
Global warming is all about scare tactics...

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In passing across Florida, Katrina weakened to a tropical storm; however, the warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico allowed it to rapidly intensify to the sixth strongest Atlantic hurricane in recorded history.

Global warming is nothing to be worried about? The consequences will only increase.

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We're not going to kill the planet.

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No but most likaly the planet will kill us.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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There could have been hurricanes 10X worse than that 90,000 years ago, but no one was here to catalog that now were they?

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Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

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Quote:

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There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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Until every person in the world who makes more money than me sacrifices personal wealth in the name of global warming, I will not change how I live on this planet. That's the bottom line...

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If you want to be an eco-masochist, by all means, go right ahead. I'll watch...

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You are irrelevant. As long as we got polluting factories, coal plants, de-forrestation, and what not problems will only increase. I have to say thought for the record, you are being incredible selfish.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Ice cores will NOT tell you the whole story, that ICE has not been there for 4.5 billion years...

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Ice cores will NOT tell you the whole story, that ICE has not been there for 4.5 billion years...

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Correct. 4.5 billion years ago the planet was a ball of hot lava.

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Originally by: MassonA

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i thought 'global warming' was just human actions speeding up the natural change in the earths temperature

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Ice cores will NOT tell you the whole story, that ICE has not been there for 4.5 billion years...

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Correct. 4.5 billion years ago the planet was a ball of hot lava.

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Originally by: MassonA

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i thought 'global warming' was just human actions speeding up the natural change in the earths temperature

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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What's even worse is that plenty of people still believe that global warming is fictional.


If I remember correctly, we've got about 30 years to make serious corrections before it becomes impossible for humans to prevent a major climate change. It's probably closer to 25 now...

---

Over dramaticized rather than fictional. We have more to fear from our nuclear powerplants waste than we do from the CO2 we release from combustion. Hell, all the cows in the world release approximately 1/5th of the worlds entire greenhouse gases. Cows ffs. If it ever comes down to it, we'll make artificial ozone and dump it into the atmosphere. But thats a real big if.

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Originally by: Hellraiza666

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Global warming happens naturally, the only difference this time is its happening slightly faster than normal, relax.

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Originally by: Hellraiza666

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Global warming happens naturally, the only difference this time is its happening slightly faster than normal, relax.

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Quote:

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Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

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No. Global warming is a fact.

Quote:

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There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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this is correct. But its 'most likaly' or 90%. That means only a person that doesnt think logical will say otherwise.

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Originally by: Malontra

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Quote:

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Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

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No. Global warming is a fact.

Quote:

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There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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this is correct. But its 'most likaly' or 90%. That means only a person that doesnt think logical will say otherwise.

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Then its not a fact now is it. Hypothesis, Theory, or a known Fact which is it? It cant be a fact if its only 90%. At most it can only be a theory. But guess what else is a theory... gravity.

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Originally by: Malontra

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Quote:

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Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

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No. Global warming is a fact.

Quote:

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There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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this is correct. But its 'most likaly' or 90%. That means only a person that doesnt think logical will say otherwise.

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Then its not a fact now is it. Hypothesis, Theory, or a known Fact which is it? It cant be a fact if its only 90%. At most it can only be a theory. But guess what else is a theory... gravity.

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nothing is 100% fact, theories are about concensous. On global warming we have one. It's happening.

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Originally by: Malontra

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Originally by: Malontra

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Quote:

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Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

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No. Global warming is a fact.

Quote:

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There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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this is correct. But its 'most likaly' or 90%. That means only a person that doesnt think logical will say otherwise.

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Then its not a fact now is it. Hypothesis, Theory, or a known Fact which is it? It cant be a fact if its only 90%. At most it can only be a theory. But guess what else is a theory... gravity.

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nothing is 100% fact, theories are about concensous. On global warming we have one. It's happening.

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Erm... there are infinite 100% facts... take some physics or calculus you'll learn some facts and their proofs. Theories are about proof. Theres no way to prove that global warming exists with 100% certainty, like theres no way to for us to understand gravity even close to 100% without finding the elusive 'graviton'

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Researchers who have recently returned from the region found that an area of permafrost spanning a million square kilometres - the size of France and Germany combined - has started to melt for the first time since it formed 11,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

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Originally by: Talianas Unger

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Quote:

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Researchers who have recently returned from the region found that an area of permafrost spanning a million square kilometres - the size of France and Germany combined - has started to melt for the first time since it formed 11,000 years ago at the end of the last ice age.

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Which means that this has happened (many times) before, and will happen MANY times after we are all long gone. It's called climate cycles people. Or are all the Mammoth farts to blame for the meltdown of the last ice age?

This is the same socialist nonsense propaganda that pops up every 20 years or so. Before we were causing an ice age, then it was ozone, now we're warming the planet. Considering we've been measuring all that stuff to any real scientific degree for less than 50 years, I'm confident that we pitiful life forms will never truly have a long-term effect on this planet. To think otherwise is to have the ultimate Ego (or just a political agenda).

Cripes, there have been mass extinction events every few million years. Guess what, we're many million overdue for the next one. Hopefully, the next event will take some doom-and-gloomers with it so that we can all get back to virtually destroying each other in a video game....

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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There could have been hurricanes 10X worse than that 90,000 years ago, but no one was here to catalog that now were they?

Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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Quote:

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Also the mass extinction is what the doom and gloomers are on about...

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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people like you make me sad. The ozone problem is still around and it took huge effort by companies around the world to bring down the damage being done to the ozone layer. We pitiful lifeforms can cause mass extinction, and we are doing. If animals could not outcompete each other for resources nothing would evolve ever. Also the mass extinction is what the doom and gloomers are on about...but wait i forget the ignorant will survive what they fail to see...o wait...what?

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Originally by: Shadowsword

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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There could have been hurricanes 10X worse than that 90,000 years ago, but no one was here to catalog that now were they?

Global warming is a theory, just like the Big Bang...

There is insufficient data to call global warming a 100% truth.

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Let's not get into ridiculous eco frenezy, you're right. By exagerating what's really happening some ecologists only hurt the credibility of their more reasonables workmates.

However, a few things can't be argued:

- The water temperature on surface is rising. This mean that the zones where the water is warm enough to cause a convection effect on the air, are widening. As the water temperature increase, the convection effect is also more powerfull. In short, the would-be cyclones not only get energy faster, but they also get it longer, and the cold-water zones where they lose some of their energy before hitting landscapes are also smaller.


- The polar cap is melting. As a direct result, it's albedo is decreasing, which in turn accelerate it's warming (less light reflected = more light absorbed).


We can all argue ourselves blue to know how much artificial or natural the global warming is, but what is certain is that it is at least in part artificial, that it'll get worse, and that without our pollution, some of those who died in recents cyclones would be alive right now...

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Originally by: rhumbline

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Hurricanes or tropical revolving storms are fine by me, they only appear in the band between 10 degrees north and south or so. I live way above that..so no worries.

Ok im being facetious a bit.

Must admit to noticing that weather in the north sea has generally had larger periods of really,really bad weather than 17 years ago. True it's a personal view, but winters up there aren't much fun, and they seem to be longer, and more violent.

Article isnt of use in this topic, but check the piccy in the top right hand corner http://ioc.unesco.org/gpsbulletin/GPS1&2/Vol1article.htm

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Originally by: Talianas Unger

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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people like you make me sad. The ozone problem is still around and it took huge effort by companies around the world to bring down the damage being done to the ozone layer. We pitiful lifeforms can cause mass extinction, and we are doing. If animals could not outcompete each other for resources nothing would evolve ever. Also the mass extinction is what the doom and gloomers are on about...but wait i forget the ignorant will survive what they fail to see...o wait...what?

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People like me...you mean scientists? Those with an actual engineering degree in the field that know what they're talking about? Yeah, it sucks when people in the know blow up your political machinations, huh?

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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What I find really amusing is that people think that humanity has even the smallest understanding of our planets weather beyond ~200 years ago. Someone google up the average temperature in Los Angeles around this time of the year back in 553 AD. PLZ!

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 22:38:55

Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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What I find really amusing is that people think that humanity has even the smallest understanding of our planets weather beyond ~200 years ago. Someone google up the average temperature in Los Angeles around this time of the year back in 553 AD. PLZ!

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its written into the geology and ice...not to mention the ecosystem.

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Then as a scientist show me some evidence and counter my point. Your response is on the whole asking me to place faith in your degree and your opinion without demstrating to me that you are correct.

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Originally by: Talianas Unger

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Then as a scientist show me some evidence and counter my point. Your response is on the whole asking me to place faith in your degree and your opinion without demstrating to me that you are correct.

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Probably 90+% of temperature readings are taken within cities. Cities which have grown exponetially within the last 50 years (and certainly within the last 100). Cities are subject to what is widely known as a "heat island" effect. As cities grow, this effect becomes more and more pronounced. Consequently, temperature "trends" at the surface are inherently flawed, yet this is the type of data used almost exclusively to "prove" manmade global warming. Satellite trends do not substantiate a rapid heat-up (or hardly any heatup at all, for that matter). When faced with this data, global warming proponents poo-poo it, or "adjust" the data.

I have yet to see one scrap of research to take this heat-island effect seriously into account. At best, scientists "estimate" it's effect. In other words, they guess, since this effect has only been noted within the last few decades.

Next, the ozone layer. One, we are supposing we have fixed it because it has changed size, puportedly in our favor this time. The ozone layer itself was only just being researched in the 60's and 70's I believe. There is no definitive historical basis to say we affected it one way or the other, only more theories. In fact, I would argue that an increase in global temperature will in fact help this "issue" as well. Warmer waters and higher temperatures leads to more storms. Lightning is the KEY producer of ozone for this planet. As a result of more storms, more ozone will be produced.

Next, warmer climates is exposing land that has not been farmable in recorded human history ("permafrost" regions). Explain to me why more farmable land, increased rain, and increased CO2 is a bad thing since all three encourage rapid plant growth and food production, in a world that is struggling to feed it's 6.5 billion people.

Incidenatlly, most data I have seen indicates a global increase in fauna and flora, despite our best efforts (ex. the brazilian rain forest) to the contrary. Hmmm, could it be all that rain and CO2?? Nahhhhhh.

I eagerly await your own scientific analysis....

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Originally by: Liz Kali

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Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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Originally by: TheDagda

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*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

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Quote:

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People are fear mongers, and continuously forget the fact that humanity is but a speck on the ass of the universe, moreover our planet, and the notion that would do something to imbalance such a massive system is foolish. The Earth is not some delicate flower that needs to be talked to, its a ******* shake and bake oven. Something shakes and something bakes.

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Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

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haha, just wait till the poles flip... wish I could see into the future and see how people blame that on us too.

And it was pretty cold last night, where's my global warming?

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Originally by: Talianas Unger

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Then as a scientist show me some evidence and counter my point. Your response is on the whole asking me to place faith in your degree and your opinion without demstrating to me that you are correct.

---

Probably 90+% of temperature readings are taken within cities. Cities which have grown exponetially within the last 50 years (and certainly within the last 100). Cities are subject to what is widely known as a "heat island" effect. As cities grow, this effect becomes more and more pronounced. Consequently, temperature "trends" at the surface are inherently flawed, yet this is the type of data used almost exclusively to "prove" manmade global warming. Satellite trends do not substantiate a rapid heat-up (or hardly any heatup at all, for that matter). When faced with this data, global warming proponents poo-poo it, or "adjust" the data.

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Quote:

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I have yet to see one scrap of research to take this heat-island effect seriously into account. At best, scientists "estimate" it's effect. In other words, they guess, since this effect has only been noted within the last few decades.

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Quote:

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Next, warmer climates is exposing land that has not been farmable in recorded human history ("permafrost" regions). Explain to me why more farmable land, increased rain, and increased CO2 is a bad thing since all three encourage rapid plant growth and food production, in a world that is struggling to feed it's 6.5 billion people.

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Quote:

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Incidenatlly, most data I have seen indicates a global increase in fauna and flora, despite our best efforts (ex. the brazilian rain forest) to the contrary. Hmmm, could it be all that rain and CO2?? Nahhhhhh.

I eagerly await your own scientific analysis....

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 23:02:00
I'm done banging my head against a brick wall.

The trojans were warned what was inside the horse. Lets see what happens then shall we? All the data and anecdotal evidence i have seen states that ALL of the earths support systems are in decline. Your heat island effect can also be contribute to warming as urbanization not only creates heat island but er...it expands into natural carbon sinks...being forests and the like.

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Originally by: Malontra

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Erm... there are infinite 100% facts... take some physics or calculus you'll learn some facts and their proofs. Theories are about proof. Theres no way to prove that global warming exists with 100% certainty, like theres no way to for us to understand gravity even close to 100% without finding the elusive 'graviton'

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Originally by: Thanos Draicon

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Do you honestly believe that legitimate scientistes would know this and take this into account in their studies? This also does not take into account how the temperatures of Siberia have increased by 3 degree Celsius in the past 40 years.
Also, provide sources for your claims regarding satellite-based observations.

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Quote:

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Can you explain to me how a "heat island" caused by a city is capable of influencing temperatures of the currents in the Atlantic ocean?

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Quote:

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So do you believe that the increased habitability of certain areas makes up for the regions that will suffer from more hostile weather patterns and droughts/crop extinctions as a result?

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Quote:

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I would also like you to cite your sources on that one.

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Originally by: Malontra

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Erm... there are infinite 100% facts... take some physics or calculus you'll learn some facts and their proofs. Theories are about proof. Theres no way to prove that global warming exists with 100% certainty, like theres no way to for us to understand gravity even close to 100% without finding the elusive 'graviton'

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Quote:

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The Grand Canyon used to be a ***** in the earth. Now it's a mile deep.

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 23:02:00
I'm done banging my head against a brick wall.

The trojans were warned what was inside the horse. Lets see what happens then shall we? All the data and anecdotal evidence i have seen states that ALL of the earths support systems are in decline. Your heat island effect can also be contribute to warming as urbanization not only creates heat island but er...it expands into natural carbon sinks...being forests and the like.

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 23:27:01
Don't worry, when Hillary Clinton is elected president, she will save us all.

Al Gore will be appointed master of anti global warming, and he will also be the information minister, as we all know he created the internets.

He will tell us how to live, and how to save the planet we have brought to its knees...

And, if we don't happen to save ourselves & people get hurt, Hillary's mandated socialized health care system will save us all.

Fear not planet earth, teh liberals are on their way to save us from the error of our ways. We obviously don't know how to live properly, but fear not, they will educate us on how to be good humans...

Trust in the goberment...

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 23:27:01
Don't worry, when Hillary Clinton is elected president, she will save us all.

Al Gore will be appointed master of anti global warming, and he will also be the information minister, as we all know he created the internets.

He will tell us how to live, and how to save the planet we have brought to its knees...

And, if we don't happen to save ourselves & people get hurt, Hillary's mandated socialized health care system will save us all.

Fear not planet earth, teh liberals are on their way to save us from the error of our ways. We obviously don't know how to live properly, but fear not, they will educate us on how to be good humans...

Trust in the goberment...

---

From above and previous statements you've made about women, I think its fair to say you have control issues DarkMatter. I'd get these looked into.

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Originally by: Tzt

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Ice cores will NOT tell you the whole story, that ICE has not been there for 4.5 billion years...

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Correct. 4.5 billion years ago the planet was a ball of hot lava.

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so global warming was worse 4.5billion yers ago then?!! thus invaldiating your arguement that global warming is getting worse now!

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: Malontra

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Erm... there are infinite 100% facts... take some physics or calculus you'll learn some facts and their proofs. Theories are about proof. Theres no way to prove that global warming exists with 100% certainty, like theres no way to for us to understand gravity even close to 100% without finding the elusive 'graviton'

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Mathematical proofs? 100% facts? You need to take a philosphy course buddy.

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Originally by: Commander Buttnugget

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 23:27:01
Don't worry, when Hillary Clinton is elected president, she will save us all.

Al Gore will be appointed master of anti global warming, and he will also be the information minister, as we all know he created the internets.

He will tell us how to live, and how to save the planet we have brought to its knees...

And, if we don't happen to save ourselves & people get hurt, Hillary's mandated socialized health care system will save us all.

Fear not planet earth, teh liberals are on their way to save us from the error of our ways. We obviously don't know how to live properly, but fear not, they will educate us on how to be good humans...

Trust in the goberment...

---

From above and previous statements you've made about women, I think its fair to say you have control issues DarkMatter. I'd get these looked into.

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I'd feel the same way if she was a man...


She kinda looks like one already...

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: Commander Buttnugget

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Originally by: Derovius Vaden

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 17/09/2007 23:27:01
Don't worry, when Hillary Clinton is elected president, she will save us all.

Al Gore will be appointed master of anti global warming, and he will also be the information minister, as we all know he created the internets.

He will tell us how to live, and how to save the planet we have brought to its knees...

And, if we don't happen to save ourselves & people get hurt, Hillary's mandated socialized health care system will save us all.

Fear not planet earth, teh liberals are on their way to save us from the error of our ways. We obviously don't know how to live properly, but fear not, they will educate us on how to be good humans...

Trust in the goberment...

---

From above and previous statements you've made about women, I think its fair to say you have control issues DarkMatter. I'd get these looked into.

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I'd feel the same way if she was a man...


She kinda looks like one already...

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I'm afraid I can't help with that, go find Benco.

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Quote:

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"Previously reported discrepancies between the amount of warming near the surface and higher in the atmosphere have been used to challenge the reliability of climate models and the reality of humaninduced global warming. Specifically, surface data showed substantial global-average warming, while early versions of satellite and radiosonde data showed little or no warming above the surface. This significant discrepancy no longer exists because errors in the satellite and radiosonde data have been identified and corrected. New data sets have also been developed that do not show such discrepancies."

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Quote:

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However, as detailed in CCSP SAP 5.1 Understanding and Reconcilling Differences, neither Regression models or other related techniques were reconcilable with observed data. The use of fingerprinting techniques on data yielded that "Volcanic and human-caused fingerprints were not consistently identifiable in observed patterns of lapse rate change." As such, issues with reconciling data and models remain.

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Global warming is a scam.

It's intended to create things, such as the Kyoto protocal, which claims to want to reduce greenhouse gases by making industry buy carbon credits.

So, these 'carbon' credits, which are pulled out of someones ass, and they can emit 1 ton of carbon or whatever.

Then, individual companies have to buy a certain amount of carbon credits depending on how much they go over their so called pollution quota.

Lets say, that the US signed onto the Kyoto protocal or something similar. Now, lets say Ford has to spend 10 billion dollars a year in carbon credits.

However, Mexico isnt signed onto the Kyoto protocal, so, Ford can cut their yearly costs by 10 billion ISK by going out of the US and moving to mexico.

What happens? We lose jobs.

Scenario 2:

A US company identicle to a company in... lets say... Romania.

Produces the SAME amount of pollution.
Creates the SAME product with the SAME quality.

They are identicle.

The governing body, tells the US company they are polluting too much and need to buy carbon credits.
The romanian company is ignored.

The romanian company is now at an advantage, they can undercut the US company, and force them out of business.

It's all about the money.

---

Quote:

---

And yet Bush was blasted for not signing.

I'm sure Hillary will sign up as soon as she becomes president...

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Global warming is a scam.

It's intended to create things, such as the Kyoto protocal, which claims to want to reduce greenhouse gases by making industry buy carbon credits.

So, these 'carbon' credits, which are pulled out of someones ass, and they can emit 1 ton of carbon or whatever.

Then, individual companies have to buy a certain amount of carbon credits depending on how much they go over their so called pollution quota.

Lets say, that the US signed onto the Kyoto protocal or something similar. Now, lets say Ford has to spend 10 billion dollars a year in carbon credits.

However, Mexico isnt signed onto the Kyoto protocal, so, Ford can cut their yearly costs by 10 billion ISK by going out of the US and moving to mexico.

What happens? We lose jobs.

Scenario 2:

A US company identicle to a company in... lets say... Romania.

Produces the SAME amount of pollution.
Creates the SAME product with the SAME quality.

They are identicle.

The governing body, tells the US company they are polluting too much and need to buy carbon credits.
The romanian company is ignored.

The romanian company is now at an advantage, they can undercut the US company, and force them out of business.

It's all about the money.

---

And yet Bush was blasted for not signing.

I'm sure Hillary will sign up as soon as she becomes president...

---

Quote:

---

I'd blast Bush for the way the man looks, blasting him for not being an active participant in some political glad handing is not that far fetched.

Only Americans could vote in a man that looks like a chimpanzee. Twice.

---

Quote:

---

I'd blast Bush for the way the man looks, blasting him for not being an active participant in some political glad handing is not that far fetched.

Only Americans could vote in a man that looks like a chimpanzee. Twice.

---

Originally by: SPQRMocton

---

We would love to have a bunch of teenage pimple boys with no real pvp ability to fil our corpse yards

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

I see the monkeys are pulling out the whole defence of US industry and global warming is a scam poo from their asses again. Science says global warming is fact. Try pulling a rabbit out of that ass on this one and you'll find all you've got is scientist naysayers so few on the ground, spouting tired old and disproven lies, which you have gleaned from those crappy internet sites, and now use to justify your antiquated arguments.

The leaders of all the major companies: oil, coal, banks, etc etc all recognize that the science is there and they have to get a move on as they have 10 years tops to exploit/faze out. It's only the lower food chain who sit on their porches wittling and gobbing at the spitoon who believe it's anything otherwise.

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 18/09/2007 00:48:22

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

I see the monkeys are pulling out the whole defence of US industry and global warming is a scam poo from their asses again. Science says global warming is fact. Try pulling a rabbit out of that ass on this one and you'll find all you've got is scientist naysayers so few on the ground, spouting tired old and disproven lies, which you have gleaned from those crappy internet sites, and now use to justify your antiquated arguments.

The leaders of all the major companies: oil, coal, banks, etc etc all recognize that the science is there and they have to get a move on as they have 10 years tops to exploit/faze out. It's only the lower food chain who sit on their porches wittling and gobbing at the spitoon who believe it's anything otherwise.

---

Science can be wrong, and it has been wrong in the past.

Wasn't it the scientests that thought the earth was flat 500 years ago?

---

Originally by: Death Kill

---

Create humans with an IQ of 100000. Perhaps they could solve the problems of the world better than we can.....our record sucks.

---

Originally by: Talianas Unger

---

Edited by: Talianas Unger on 17/09/2007 23:23:14

Originally by: Celeste Coeval

---

Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 23:02:00
I'm done banging my head against a brick wall.

The trojans were warned what was inside the horse. Lets see what happens then shall we? All the data and anecdotal evidence i have seen states that ALL of the earths support systems are in decline. Your heat island effect can also be contribute to warming as urbanization not only creates heat island but er...it expands into natural carbon sinks...being forests and the like.

---

In other words...ya got nuttin.

quote]

Neither have you numbnuts

"Kill one man, and you are a murderer. Kill millions of men, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god."
-- Jean Rostand

Originally by: Talianas Unger

---

This is the same socialist nonsense propaganda that pops up every 20 years or so. Before we were causing an ice age, then it was ozone, now we're warming the planet. Considering we've been measuring all that stuff to any real scientific degree for less than 50 years, I'm confident that we pitiful life forms will never truly have a long-term effect on this planet. To think otherwise is to have the ultimate Ego (or just a political agenda).

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 18/09/2007 00:48:22

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

I see the monkeys are pulling out the whole defence of US industry and global warming is a scam poo from their asses again. Science says global warming is fact. Try pulling a rabbit out of that ass on this one and you'll find all you've got is scientist naysayers so few on the ground, spouting tired old and disproven lies, which you have gleaned from those crappy internet sites, and now use to justify your antiquated arguments.

The leaders of all the major companies: oil, coal, banks, etc etc all recognize that the science is there and they have to get a move on as they have 10 years tops to exploit/faze out. It's only the lower food chain who sit on their porches wittling and gobbing at the spitoon who believe it's anything otherwise.

---

Science can be wrong, and it has been wrong in the past.

Wasn't it the scientests that thought the earth was flat 500 years ago?

---

No it was the church that told them that. Science proved showed them the light, just at it has done with industry

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 17/09/2007 23:43:46
Global warming is a scam.

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Science can be wrong, and it has been wrong in the past.

Wasn't it the scientests that thought the earth was flat 500 years ago?

---

Originally by: Atama Cardel

---

I used to have snow every couple of years, now I've gotten it 3 years in a row, curse this global warming

---

Originally by: Death Kill

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 17/09/2007 23:43:46
Global warming is a scam.

---

Why do I get the feling your name is billy bob, you drive a pick up, work in a coal factory and live in Texas?

We used to have snow in october here, last year we got snow on Christmas EVE. The climate is rapidly changing and only an ignoranus would refuse to see that.

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 17/09/2007 23:43:46
Global warming is a scam.

It's intended to create things, such as the Kyoto protocal, which claims to want to reduce greenhouse gases by making industry buy carbon credits.

So, these 'carbon' credits, which are pulled out of someones ass, and they can emit 1 ton of carbon or whatever.

Then, individual companies have to buy a certain amount of carbon credits depending on how much they go over their so called pollution quota.

Lets say, that the US signed onto the Kyoto protocal or something similar. Now, lets say Ford has to spend 10 billion dollars a year in carbon credits.

However, Mexico isnt signed onto the Kyoto protocal, so, Ford can cut their yearly costs by 10 billion dollars by going out of the US and moving to mexico.

What happens? We lose jobs.

Scenario 2:

A US company identicle to a company in... lets say... Romania.

Produces the SAME amount of pollution.
Creates the SAME product with the SAME quality.

They are identicle.

The governing body, tells the US company they are polluting too much and need to buy carbon credits.
The romanian company is ignored.

The romanian company is now at an advantage, they can undercut the US company, and force them out of business.

It's all about the money.

---

Originally by: Royaldo

---

complete win by Cornucopian!

---

Originally by: Kastar

---

Global warming is a natural process and has always been there with a peak or a low.

Do humans speed up the process ? - probably. Is this something to worry about ? Not certain, most likely not. There have been volcanic eruptions in the long and short term past who ejected nearly instantaneous more than humans did in several decades.

Should we worry ? - why now ? We already did a good job destroying ourself before Global Warming became the next hype.

The earth will survive. Plant and animal life will survive. humans in our current situation will probably have a harder time adapting as we should. The best thing that can happen to this planet is that we get slapped around and get a hard time.

We should and probably will adapt. Whether all humanity in t's totality will adapt is another thing. For all I know the planet is finally starting to try to heal itself from the virus called mankind.

---

Originally by: Asperger

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Science can be wrong, and it has been wrong in the past.

Wasn't it the scientests that thought the earth was flat 500 years ago? [/quote

That knowledge didn't get lost in the middle ages, noone serious thought the Earth is flat even then. It's just a myth.

---

Not quite accurate. There's still a difference between general belief and the knowledge a few have. In Western/christian Europe people indeed generally believed the world was flat. That some other cultures knew otherwise has nothing to do with that. what's generally accepted is usually the norm, whether one or two people contest that or are simply smarter is not even close to relevant.

-----------------------------------------------

Originally by: Cornucopian

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 17/09/2007 23:43:46
Global warming is a scam.

It's intended to create things, such as the Kyoto protocal, which claims to want to reduce greenhouse gases by making industry buy carbon credits.

So, these 'carbon' credits, which are pulled out of someones ass, and they can emit 1 ton of carbon or whatever.

Then, individual companies have to buy a certain amount of carbon credits depending on how much they go over their so called pollution quota.

Lets say, that the US signed onto the Kyoto protocal or something similar. Now, lets say Ford has to spend 10 billion dollars a year in carbon credits.

However, Mexico isnt signed onto the Kyoto protocal, so, Ford can cut their yearly costs by 10 billion dollars by going out of the US and moving to mexico.

What happens? We lose jobs.

Scenario 2:

A US company identicle to a company in... lets say... Romania.

Produces the SAME amount of pollution.
Creates the SAME product with the SAME quality.

They are identicle.

The governing body, tells the US company they are polluting too much and need to buy carbon credits.
The romanian company is ignored.

The romanian company is now at an advantage, they can undercut the US company, and force them out of business.

It's all about the money.

---

to quote southpark:

'dey tuk ur joabs!!!'

---

Originally by: Celeste Coeval

---

Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 23:02:00
I'm done banging my head against a brick wall.

The trojans were warned what was inside the horse. Lets see what happens then shall we? All the data and anecdotal evidence i have seen states that ALL of the earths support systems are in decline. Your heat island effect can also be contribute to warming as urbanization not only creates heat island but er...it expands into natural carbon sinks...being forests and the like.

---

Originally by: Royaldo

---

complete win by Cornucopian!

---

Originally by: Kastar

---

Not quite accurate. There's still a difference between general belief and the knowledge a few have. In Western/christian Europe people indeed generally believed the world was flat. That some other cultures knew otherwise has nothing to do with that. what's generally accepted is usually the norm, whether one or two people contest that or are simply smarter is not even close to relevant.

---

Originally by: Asperger

---

Originally by: Kastar

---

Global warming is a natural process and has always been there with a peak or a low.

Do humans speed up the process ? - probably. Is this something to worry about ? Not certain, most likely not. There have been volcanic eruptions in the long and short term past who ejected nearly instantaneous more than humans did in several decades.

Should we worry ? - why now ? We already did a good job destroying ourself before Global Warming became the next hype.

The earth will survive. Plant and animal life will survive. humans in our current situation will probably have a harder time adapting as we should. The best thing that can happen to this planet is that we get slapped around and get a hard time.

We should and probably will adapt. Whether all humanity in t's totality will adapt is another thing. For all I know the planet is finally starting to try to heal itself from the virus called mankind.

---

"Measurements of CO2 levels over the past 50 years do not show any significant rises after eruptions. Total emissions from volcanoes on land are estimated to average just 0.3 Gt of CO2 each year". Source: clicky

---

Originally by: Erilias Ilthis

---

I think that's a fair point. However, have there been any major eruptions in the last 50 years ? What we consider major because a town has to be evacuated in Indonesia might be something different from eruptions in the past where entire islands explode, seabeds rise and drop and 100 km's of earth crust *****s. I'm thinking Santorini eg.

---

Originally by: Kastar

---

The climate rapidly changed 1000's of times in the past in either direction. Whether it's due to a comet, humans ejecting gases or an earthquake on the seabeds releasing billions of tons of methane has no importance.

---

Quote:

---

I wouldn't be surprised if the hype would be partially fed by the energy lobbies all around the world. The real challenge for humanity will not be the climate. We already adapted to that, people will only have to move from certain coastal regions or move to others with more agricultural possibilities.

---

Quote:

---

I find it ridiculous that people are arguing about a climate change, but not about us destroying everything we encounter. A climate change means it will become warmer here and there, wetter on other spots and colder in yet other places. On the other hand, a rainforest that is gone is gone forever since humans take it's place, with according disappearance of all lifeforms.

---

Quote:

---

We're an odd lot, and we're too many.

---

Originally by: voogru

---

I just figured out the true cause of global warming.

...ITS THAT BIG SHINEY THING IN THE SKY THAT WE CALL THE SUN!!!

Hey, the sun has cycles where it emits more heat or less heat doesnt it, sometimes even having solar flares!

Hmm...

2+2 = 9182

---

Originally by: Cornucopian

---

Originally by: Celeste Coeval

---

Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 17/09/2007 23:02:00
I'm done banging my head against a brick wall.

The trojans were warned what was inside the horse. Lets see what happens then shall we? All the data and anecdotal evidence i have seen states that ALL of the earths support systems are in decline. Your heat island effect can also be contribute to warming as urbanization not only creates heat island but er...it expands into natural carbon sinks...being forests and the like.

---

forests are only carbon sinks during the day: at night when fotosynthesis stops, they expell carbon..... just putting an edge on that.

---

Originally by: Asperger

---

Originally by: Erilias Ilthis

---

I think that's a fair point. However, have there been any major eruptions in the last 50 years ? What we consider major because a town has to be evacuated in Indonesia might be something different from eruptions in the past where entire islands explode, seabeds rise and drop and 100 km's of earth crust *****s. I'm thinking Santorini eg.

---

At least according to the Volcanic Explosivity Index Santorini was a type 6 eruption. We had at least 3 type 6 eruptions in the 20th century and at least one, Pinatubo in the past 20 years. The VEI is a logarithmic scale, increasing from 0 to 8.

Type 7 or 8 eruptions are relatively rare, in the past 1500 years only a type 7 eruption occured in 1815, which means even if they dump large amounts of CO2 into the atmosphere, they do it rarely. Volcanoes actually decrease the global mean temperature because apart from greenhouse gases they also dump large amounts of areosols in the atmosphere which forms a global layer of sulfuric acid haze in case of a big eruption, which in turn cools the planet more than the added CO2 warms it.

For example in the case of Pinatubo, wikipedia has this to say:
The injection of aerosols into the stratosphere is thought to have been the largest since the eruption of Krakatoa in 1883, with a total mass of SO2 of about 17 million tons being injectedùthe largest volume ever recorded by modern instruments (see chart and figure).

This very large stratospheric injection resulted in a reduction in the normal amount of sunlight reaching the earth's surface by up to 5% (see figure). This led to a decrease in northern hemisphere average temperatures of 0.5û0.6 ¦C (0.9û1.1 ¦F), and a global fall of about 0.4 ¦C (0.7 ¦F).

---

Originally by: Death Kill

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 17/09/2007 23:43:46
Global warming is a scam.

---

Why do I get the feling your name is billy bob, you drive a pick up, work in a coal factory and live in Texas?

We used to have snow in october here, last year we got snow on Christmas EVE. The climate is rapidly changing and only an ignoranus would refuse to see that.

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: voogru

---

Edited by: voogru on 18/09/2007 00:46:53
Guys,

I just figured out the true cause of global warming.

...ITS THAT BIG SHINEY THING IN THE SKY THAT WE CALL THE SUN!!!

Hey, the sun has cycles where it emits more heat or less heat doesnt it, sometimes even having solar flares!

Hmm...

2+2 = 9182

---

Originally by: Liz Kali

---

Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

---

Originally by: TheDagda

---

*click*
For the love of the jovians stops necroing

---

Quote:

---

Just because it's not 100% certain that we are the cause of this global warming, there is no excuse not to do something, all the way down to the individual level.

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Edited by: DarkMatter on 18/09/2007 17:00:30

Quote:

---

Just because it's not 100% certain that we are the cause of this global warming, there is no excuse not to do something, all the way down to the individual level.

---

As soon as all the politicians, actors & other rich people prove to me they are making individual sacrifices to save the planet, I'll think about it...

Until then, they can shove it!

---

Quote:

---

But if people and politicians are labeled as "environmental nerds", "tree-huggers" and other stuff like it, no wonder they won't speak up.

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Quote:

---

But if people and politicians are labeled as "environmental nerds", "tree-huggers" and other stuff like it, no wonder they won't speak up.

---

Then they are weak minded and would never get elected anyways...

Politicians and actors continually ask the general public to sacrifice, and then you see them flying around in their Leer Jets, wasting more resources with their wealth in a month than I ever could in my lifetime...

Sorry but that's not going to work, lol!

---

Originally by: Asperger

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Quote:

---

But if people and politicians are labeled as "environmental nerds", "tree-huggers" and other stuff like it, no wonder they won't speak up.

---

Then they are weak minded and would never get elected anyways...

Politicians and actors continually ask the general public to sacrifice, and then you see them flying around in their Leer Jets, wasting more resources with their wealth in a month than I ever could in my lifetime...

Sorry but that's not going to work, lol!

---

Environmental concerns only partly influence my choices in using more environmentally friendly technology. The other influence is trying to save money. Compact fluorescent bulbs, choosing a car with good fuel efficiency, solar collector on your roof, good insulation, etc. are not only more environmentally friendly but much cheaper.

---

Originally by: Sharupak

---

Originally by: Asperger

---

Originally by: DarkMatter

---

Quote:

---

But if people and politicians are labeled as "environmental nerds", "tree-huggers" and other stuff like it, no wonder they won't speak up.

---

Then they are weak minded and would never get elected anyways...

Politicians and actors continually ask the general public to sacrifice, and then you see them flying around in their Leer Jets, wasting more resources with their wealth in a month than I ever could in my lifetime...

Sorry but that's not going to work, lol!

---

Environmental concerns only partly influence my choices in using more environmentally friendly technology. The other influence is trying to save money. Compact fluorescent bulbs, choosing a car with good fuel efficiency, solar collector on your roof, good insulation, etc. are not only more environmentally friendly but much cheaper.

---

Definately a sound ideology there, but take a closer look at the components that makeup your "environmentally friendly" equipment. It may be easier on the air, but it is taking a wizz in the ground water behind your back.



The point is mans contribution to global warming is a drop in the bucket! It seems there is evidence that the world is changing, but she is doing it on her own. Perhaps she threw in the towel after enduring a decade of big hair metal bands, the b-52s and Meg Ryan films!

---

Originally by: Sharupak

---

One Volcano blast lowered the earths temperature by 1.3C. Once the Sulfur dioxide hit the deck 3 years after the eruption, how much do you think its raising the earths temperature by? Mt. Pinatubo

I am not saying man doesnt harm the environment what I am saying is that our contribution to global warming is small compared to what the earths own processes can do which is most likely what is happening. So much so that switching my gass hogging ranger for a lead acid ground water polluting toyota prius isnt going to do ****.

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/09/2007 09:33:41

Celeste, with all due respect, evidence doesnt seem to get to these people so you're wasting your time

Ignorance is bliss, in the sense that it makes life easier for he who is oblivious to the world around him. No species before us has changed the face of the earth the way we do. In this pace, it's gonna be our doom and i'll be damn happy for it cause we humans seem to consist mostly of ignorant right winged ********s who only care about their own petty lives.


Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction (quoting faithless)

---

Originally by: Royaldo

---

complete win by Cornucopian!

---

Originally by: Cornucopian

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/09/2007 09:33:41

Celeste, with all due respect, evidence doesnt seem to get to these people so you're wasting your time

Ignorance is bliss, in the sense that it makes life easier for he who is oblivious to the world around him. No species before us has changed the face of the earth the way we do. In this pace, it's gonna be our doom and i'll be damn happy for it cause we humans seem to consist mostly of ignorant right winged ********s who only care about their own petty lives.


Inaction is a weapon of mass destruction (quoting faithless)

---

LOL.... I consider myself somewhat right winged, that doesnt make me ignorant or foolish. I resent that remark. Its not like left wing samaritans always have the environment on their mind.

---

Quote:

---

Global warming: ôThe temperature of the planet has increased about one degree Fahrenheit in the last century. So imagine a summer afternoon when itÆs 63 degrees and the next thing you know itÆs . . . 64 degrees. Ahhhh!!!! Run for your lives, everybody! Women and children first!ö

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

---

Quoted from that source:

One point that is also worth making is that although volcanoes release some CO2 into the atmosphere, this is completely negligable compared to anthropogenic emissions (about 0.15 Gt/year of carbon, compared to about 7 Gt/year of human related sources)

---

Originally by: Royaldo

---

complete win by Cornucopian!

---

Originally by: Cornucopian

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

---

Quoted from that source:

One point that is also worth making is that although volcanoes release some CO2 into the atmosphere, this is completely negligable compared to anthropogenic emissions (about 0.15 Gt/year of carbon, compared to about 7 Gt/year of human related sources)

---

yawnnnnn

"The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of the largest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26 million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5¦C a year after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol was stronger than the warming effects of either El Ni±o or human-induced greenhouse gas changes during 1991-93."

we need more volcanos please. also, the biggest greenhouse gas is WATERVAPOR, to which the oceans are by far the biggest contributors. Anthropogenic Warming is of course having its effect, but I doubt that it's so great as everyone says it is.

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

If i may quote one major republican lunatic, a certain Ann coulter:

---

Originally by: Jim McGregor

---

Edited by: Jim McGregor on 19/09/2007 11:32:03

Most of the other planets in our solar system are also heating up, so its not just a earth event. From what Ive read, scientists are in disagreement of the causes. Some say its different reasons on different planets, others say that the sun is heating up, producing a warmer climate on all the planets. Others disagree that the sun is heating up.

---

Originally by: Death Kill

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

If i may quote one major republican lunatic, a certain Ann coulter:

---

---

Originally by: Captian Internet

---

Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Id be deligthed to hear some motivation on that smiley cause now it doesnt tell me anything =P

---

Originally by: CCP Morpheus

---

Post with your alt.

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Cornucopian

---

Originally by: Sokratesz

---

Originally by: Locus Bey

---

Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

---

Quoted from that source:

One point that is also worth making is that although volcanoes release some CO2 into the atmosphere, this is completely negligable compared to anthropogenic emissions (about 0.15 Gt/year of carbon, compared to about 7 Gt/year of human related sources)

---

yawnnnnn

"The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of the largest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26 million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5¦C a year after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol was stronger than the warming effects of either El Ni±o or human-induced greenhouse gas changes during 1991-93."

we need more volcanos please. also, the biggest greenhouse gas is WATERVAPOR, to which the oceans are by far the biggest contributors. Anthropogenic Warming is of course having its effect, but I doubt that it's so great as everyone says it is.

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Okay so that one eruption threw 2 years worth of human production into the athmosphere - but there isnt one of those eruptions every month now is there? They state clearly that it was an unusual strong one.

*on average* volcanoes contribute very little.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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The globe IS warming, but I doubt man has as much influence as lobbyists would have you believe.

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Originally by: CCP Morpheus

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Post with your alt.

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Id be deligthed to hear some motivation on that smiley cause now it doesnt tell me anything =P

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It was my facial expression after reading Ann Coulter.


I also looked like this :

Does that mean you agree with me thinking shes a lunatic?

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

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Originally by: Kirjava

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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The globe IS warming, but I doubt man has as much influence as lobbyists would have you believe.

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So from that point, we should try and adapt for the future as opposed to focussing disproportional energies and resources into telling us how many people are going to die, mainly in the poorer countries that cannot afford basic protection.
That point makes alot of sense, I'll look into that soon, chears.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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apart from that watervapor is the single most powerfull greenhouse gas.

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Originally by: Asperger

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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apart from that watervapor is the single most powerfull greenhouse gas.

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This is true, water vapour is responsible for around 36% of the greenhouse gas effect we observe on the planet, while CO2 is responsible for around 12%.

Humans don't influence water vapour in any meaningful way as far as I know.

What's the problem with a CO2 increase then, if it's only 12% of the greenhouse effect's share anyway? To answer the question we have to dig a bit deeper and see how large the totality of the greenhouse effect is. Without a greenhouse effect, the global mean temperature of Earth would be 30˚C lower than the current 14˚C and our planet would be a ball of ice most likely unhospitable for life.

In the past 650'000 years carbon dioxide concentrations were fluctuating between 180 and 270 ppm in the atmosphere, which was responsible for multiple ice ages, scientists believe. This data has been obtained based on ice core samples and it is believed to be fairly accurate. Nowhere in the past 650'000 years did CO2 concentration exceed 300 ppm. The present CO2 level in the atmosphere is 383 ppm.

While I would like to avoid the trap of drawing linear conclusions from this data, scientists can make predictions on what would happen if CO2 levels increase, based on for example observations of Venus (which has an extreme greenhouse effect going) and computer models.

Given the global average temperature of 14˚C it would seem that even a few degrees of change in either way causes big changes to our habitat and changes to atmospheric CO2 concentration seem to be capable of causing these changes.

This was my layman's description of the science behind climate change.

The problem facing CO2 driven anthropogenic global warming opponents is two-fold. They have to both show that CO2, despite our thorough understanding of it's effects and our increased CO2 contribution to the atmosphere, doesn't contribute to warming and also come up with an alternative explanation to explain the empirical observation that the planet is warming.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Logi3

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Earth has been heating up since the last Ice Age.

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Logi3

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Earth has been heating up since the last Ice Age.

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Thanks for your contribution to this thread.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Does that mean you agree with me thinking shes a lunatic?

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Originally by: Logi3

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Earth has been heating up since the last Ice Age.

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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lol. your best post ever Sokra :-)

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

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Originally by: Locus Bey

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http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/werent-temperatures-warmer-during-the-medieval-warm-period-than-they-are-today/

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Originally by: Death Kill

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Originally by: Locus Bey

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http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/werent-temperatures-warmer-during-the-medieval-warm-period-than-they-are-today/

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Thats common knowledge. But the point is, today the climate change at a rate we have never seen before, and the changes is conflicting with the established pattern.

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Originally by: Locus Bey

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it was in response to the person who posted about it earlier. it is a common bogus argument used to say GW isn't happening.

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

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Originally by: DarkMatter

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Edited by: DarkMatter on 18/09/2007 17:00:30

Quote:

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Just because it's not 100% certain that we are the cause of this global warming, there is no excuse not to do something, all the way down to the individual level.

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As soon as all the politicians, actors & other rich people prove to me they are making individual sacrifices to save the planet, I'll think about it...

Until then, they can shove it!

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/09/2007 15:16:50
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I got a question for you all. Why does the ocean water level rise?

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Hint: 'ice caps melting' is not it.

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Originally by: CCP Morpheus

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Post with your alt.

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Originally by: Kirjava

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Edited by: Sokratesz on 19/09/2007 15:16:50
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I got a question for you all. Why does the ocean water level rise?

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Hint: 'ice caps melting' is not it.

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Assuming this isn't rhetoric....
Ocean levels rise for a myriad of reasons and in diferent places.
As I mentioned earlier in Soutern Britian, the land is literaly sinking into the channel as part of isostatic movement. Essentialy this is from the weight of the ice in the last ice age pushed down on the land and very slowly pushed it into the magma. Thousands of years after the ice is gone isostaic movement is the correction of this and an equilibriam being formed (it's so slow because of the viscosity of the magma).
Theres the famous "ice cube" show in "The Inconvinient truth" - the ice allready floating on the ocean such as the ice shelves isn't a problem in itself as it melts, as it allready displaces its own mass as it's floating. When the land based ice melts it displaces the seawater, thus raising sea levels.
Thirdly as the water absorbs heat it expands due to thermal expansion which also increases the effective volume of the oceans.
I think thats all of it, and ice caps melting does contribute something as what was previously not in the system is going back in, but at the moment I don't think it's made an appearance as a contributor, just is sitting over in the corner waiting to pounce in the future....

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Originally by: Captian Internet

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Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL

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Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm really not seeing a good counterargument to living underground here. I'll start digging, who wants to live in my new underground land?

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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wiki has the vapor numbers between 36% and 66%

Some people also say that the increased heat of the globe also enables CO2 to stay in the atmosphere longer: so the higher carbon count is actually a result of warming, not a cause. Its all very very confusing

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Originally by: Asperger

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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wiki has the vapor numbers between 36% and 66%

Some people also say that the increased heat of the globe also enables CO2 to stay in the atmosphere longer: so the higher carbon count is actually a result of warming, not a cause. Its all very very confusing

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CO2 getting into the atmosphere is resulting in a positive feedback loop, as a temperature increase releases CO2 into the atmosphere which increases the temperature even more. I think the original post was talking about this in the thread.

In a simplified way this is the explanation why CO2 levels appear to be lagging behind temperature increases in some graphs and the reason why CO2 getting into the atmosphere can both be a cause and a result.

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Locus Bey

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Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

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Quoted from that source:

One point that is also worth making is that although volcanoes release some CO2 into the atmosphere, this is completely negligable compared to anthropogenic emissions (about 0.15 Gt/year of carbon, compared to about 7 Gt/year of human related sources)

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yawnnnnn

"The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of the largest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26 million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5¦C a year after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol was stronger than the warming effects of either El Ni±o or human-induced greenhouse gas changes during 1991-93."

we need more volcanos please. also, the biggest greenhouse gas is WATERVAPOR, to which the oceans are by far the biggest contributors. Anthropogenic Warming is of course having its effect, but I doubt that it's so great as everyone says it is.

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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Originally by: Cornucopian

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Originally by: Sokratesz

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Originally by: Locus Bey

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Volcanos

http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2006/12/17/223957/72

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/01/the-global-cooling-myth/index.php?p=306

---

Quoted from that source:

One point that is also worth making is that although volcanoes release some CO2 into the atmosphere, this is completely negligable compared to anthropogenic emissions (about 0.15 Gt/year of carbon, compared to about 7 Gt/year of human related sources)

---

yawnnnnn

"The 1991 eruption of Mt Pinatubo in the Philippines was one of the largest in the past 100 years. The injection into the stratosphere of 14-26 million tonnes of sulfur dioxide led to a global surface cooling of 0.5¦C a year after the eruption. The climatic impact of the Pinatubo aerosol was stronger than the warming effects of either El Ni±o or human-induced greenhouse gas changes during 1991-93."

we need more volcanos please. also, the biggest greenhouse gas is WATERVAPOR, to which the oceans are by far the biggest contributors. Anthropogenic Warming is of course having its effect, but I doubt that it's so great as everyone says it is.

---

yes and a warmer climate leads to more water vapour in the atmosphere. A vulcanistic injection of carbon is a one shot deal, it isn't sustained in it's emissions.

Also sokrat, much <3 for faithless

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Originally by: Royaldo

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complete win by Cornucopian!

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◕◡◕

Originally by: Nyphur

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I'm really not seeing a good counterargument to living underground here. I'll start digging, who wants to live in my new underground land?

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Originally by: CCP Morpheus

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Post with your alt.

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Originally by: Celeste Coeval

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I'll type more in sec, my indian neighbour just made me some food

afk:P

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Originally by: CCP Morpheus

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Post with your alt.

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