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Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.18 04:58:00 - [31] Speaking as an inventor, I have no serious problem with the existence of T2 BPOs. I had a problem with the way they were handed out, because it was all about blind luck. I also hate that those who enjoyed monopolies before invention were able to use their profits to assemble huge T2 BPO portfolios, making them even richer. In short, I hate the legacy of the T2 lottery, not the BPOs themselves. But the truth is, there really isn't a good way to fix it without screwing over people who got rich operating perfectly legitimate businesses that were well within intended game mechanics. And it's equally true that there probably aren't THAT many super-rich people, anyway. So hey, I'm willing to let it slide. As for profitability, I invested about 500 million to get started with module invention (not counting the money I made grinding faction standings), and I probably could have done it more cheaply if I'd started smaller. I made back my initial investment, invested another 400 million to set up a research POS and I'll make that back in another couple of weeks. I can run 10 lines of production at a time, so I can make 100 modules in one run. In the same amount of time, a BPO holder could make perhaps 20 or 30 of the same modules (dependent on its production efficiency). The BPO produces modules much more cheaply per unit, but while my profit margin is smaller per module, I make more money, thanks to my added volume than the BPO holder would make with a single BPO on a single production line. I am assuming that T2 BPOs still copy slower than they produce, giving an incentive to BPO holders to produce, rather than copy, with their BPOs. Also, this becomes less true when a BPO holder owns several profitable blueprints and maintains constant production. However, considering ISK investment required to own multiple T2 BPOs, I have no problem with this. Also, unlike BPO holders, I am able to shift my production to whatever is most profitable at the time. This means I'm able shift my invention/production goals to capitalize on sudden price surges and minimize damage caused by price crashes. (Yes, yes, I know. TL;DR.) _
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:52:00 - [32] I hope this question isn't too far off topic, but can someone please tell me if R&D agents still do the T2 BPO lottery? Thanks! With 190,000 paying EVE customers and game time costing $11-15/month, CCP collects from us $2.1-2.8 million/month ($25-34 million/year). Server upgrades?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.18 05:56:00 - [33] The only possible way anybody could hope to get a new T2 BPO would be if an old one was destroyed and for some twisted reason somebody at CCP suddendly decided it's time to reseed the destroyed BPOs. So bottom line, nope, not bloody likely to ever see any BPOs from the lottery again. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Leora Nomen	Posted - 2007.09.18 06:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Edited by: Harry Paratesteas on 17/09/2007 22:59:50 Originally by: Nyphur I don't think I would like to log in one day to find that I was 20 billion isk poorer. And no, that's not perceived value, I paid 20 billion total for my small stack of T2 bpos and that is still their current resale value. The debate is whether or not to convert T2 bpos to infinite run bpcs in order to prevent copying but that still won't put us on the same level as inventors. There's no way to level the playing field without screwing over people that paid a lot of isk for what was understood at the time to be a permanant investment (a T2 bpo). Right. I get you. But why cut out those from getting at them? Couldn't there be some other system in place that's different from the old one that I heard about? Some of us would like a chance to actually do whatever to receive these rewards as well, not just buy them from someone who already has them. You're not cut out. Play to make enough ISK and then go to the sell order forum and buy one if you really need it. Sell game time codes if you cannot find any other way to make ISK to afford one. You have a chance to do "do whatever to receive these rewards as well". No one is preventing you from playing to make enough ISK to buy one. But no one is going to give you one without you lifting a finger towards achieving your goals in game or take away the fruits of efforts of other players especially now that with invention they don't give them any special privilege.
Hemroid	Posted - 2007.09.18 06:26:00 - [35] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Whine Get Over It.
Epong Private Military Company	Posted - 2007.09.18 07:05:00 - [36] Edited by: Epong on 18/09/2007 07:05:25 Originally by: Jinx Barker ... I say we turn the whole of EVE into Hello Kitty in space. Nerf T2 BPOs. ... Just for your, i can sell you my Hello Kitty T2 [mouse wheel] Sorry poor quality , i'm @ work - Bad girl +5 and Sarcasm +5
Devilish Ledoux Caldari Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2007.09.18 07:24:00 - [37] Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 18/09/2007 07:23:50 Originally by: Hemroid Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Whine Get Over It. I wasn't whining, idiot. I was saying that you can make as much or more money via invention than you can with a T2 BPO, with less up-front investment. _
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:19:00 - [38] They will turn into high run BPCs soon.
prsr Gallente JuBa Corp RONA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Derovius Vaden ... in all fairness, T2 BPO has been shown to be nothing but a sham. T20 incident anyone? Originally by: Derovius Vaden How many billions did those people make before someone stumbled on their deal? Stop making things up please. -- .sig apathy ftw
punnani	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:51:00 - [40] Yeap. Agreed. Remove T2 BPOs and boost invention. You can't just hand over some random people an uber advantage in the game by lottery and then just stop. All people should have that minimal hope of getting it. People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. So I have no pity for T2 buyers. Obviously there are exceptions. Right now, the way it stands sux for the most while benefiting the few.
Riley Craven Caldari Copacetic Corporation	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Cassiuss Oh noes! Alt smack. Of course I was guessing, I have no idea what's to come thats the beauty and fun in anticipating. I wasn't speaking as an authority just someone who is looking forward to some new changes. As for my corp or BoB, sounds like your the one living in the past m8. Get over it, enjoy your empire corp no need for bitter grapes here. Move on...evolve if you will. T2 BPO's will remain as they are for corps and alliances who have invested the bajillions in them. Thats not changing now, or anytime foreseeable. Christ, do you want to drive everyone to empire for ships and mods cause your average pvper whos fighting the war on terror ain't doin invention out in o.o, or maybe you lost sight of that. Well maybe those gheys in the drone regions are but the rest dont :) Anyhow, T3 is a comin and that should prove very cool. Alt Smack eh? Maybe you should actually look at the history of my character in game before you start saying stupid stuff. Further, just because I am in empire and not in BoB doesnt mean I am bitter. I left because I wanted to leave, I wasn't kicked, or anything else for that matter. As far as I am concerned your the one putting bitter grapes into people's mouths. While you may be right that t2 Bpos will remain the same for the foreseeable future, it is my hope one day that CCP will have the sense to make that change. The thing is I am not sure what the point of your having to go to empire to invent really means... you have to go to empire for pos fuels... I dont see why brining datacores to 0.0 and continuing a production line there would be such a burden. Its not as if the cores are heavy. I mean really are your average pvpers working on the industry side of anything in 0.0 in the first place? I was in BNC.E and about as much help as we got from BNC was protection for our convoys etc. They did their thing and we did ours. Of course I bet you dont even know how things work in your own corp so why should I bother explaining it to you.
Pizi Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 12:59:00 - [42] Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Edited by: Devilish Ledoux on 18/09/2007 07:23:50 Originally by: Hemroid Originally by: Devilish Ledoux Whine Get Over It. I wasn't whining, idiot. I was saying that you can make as much or more money via invention than you can with a T2 BPO, with less up-front investment. a bpo is a guarenteed income and can and will always win against invention noone hinders the BPO holder todo invention in his spare time ... what will come me thinks an some devblog has mentioned is applying an overhead like invention to em _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:06:00 - [43] Originally by: Pizi a bpo is a guarenteed income and can and will always win against invention noone hinders the BPO holder todo invention in his spare time ... what will come me thinks an some devblog has mentioned is applying an overhead like invention to em Not true. They are turning into high run BPCs soon.
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:16:00 - [44] Edited by: Igualmentedos on 18/09/2007 13:16:16 Originally by: Alski Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Originally by: Zoopfury POST WITH YOUR MAIN!!! Um this is my main. Work huh? This is a game not work. If any of you take it seriously, you seriously need help. Can I get some answers here or is this going to be a flame-fest by t2 bpo owners. 1. Of course you have to work for it if you want it, this is Eve, if you want stuff handed to you on a plate, *might a recommend a certain game the name of which begins and ends with a "W".* 2. Ahhh i see, so anyone who disagrees with you is a T2 BPO owner? i see. It is too early to call Troll? You're an idiot.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:28:00 - [45] The flames are strong in this thread Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. If people have spent Billions on certain T2 BPO's this was there own choice, Things change in this game all the time and you run a certain % of risk making certain investments. But the way it stands at the moment T2 BPO owners hold things that NO ONE else can now get this is wrong and needs to be changed.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:39:00 - [46] Originally by: Wizzkidy Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. Why is that wrong? It took me over 2 years of trading to get ISK for my Tech2 BPO collection, are you saying that my effort was completly useless and I should be at par with random guy who just started inventing yesterday? I don't think so. Everyone can get Tech2 BPO, sell forum is full of them. They just need to stop whinning and make some ISK instead.
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:40:00 - [47] Im sorry but turning t2 bpo's into bpc shouldnt even be considerd by CCP and if they do i want my initial investment back iv bought for more then 20 billion bpo's and im not super rich or sc*****in billions per week ive got a steady income and my estimated return value is approx. 2 - 3 years on the bpo's. So either ccp makes npc corps buy the bpo's back at the cost ive paid for em or take 20 billion from invention people. Makes equal amounts of sense as youre arguments that i should loose 20 bill.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:51:00 - [48] Edited by: Wizzkidy on 18/09/2007 13:51:46 Originally by: Anson Halleck Originally by: Wizzkidy Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. Why is that wrong? It took me over 2 years of trading to get ISK for my Tech2 BPO collection, are you saying that my effort was completly useless and I should be at par with random guy who just started inventing yesterday? I don't think so. Everyone can get Tech2 BPO, sell forum is full of them. They just need to stop whinning and make some ISK instead. Did you read my post? 1. I'm not whinning, im adding to the discussion. 2. You know the risks when you put that much investment into anything in EVE this goes for BPO's / ships / modules. so saying "I have spent blah blah blah i'm entitled to the advantage is BS because you knew the risks. Quote: Im sorry but turning t2 bpo's into bpc shouldnt even be considerd by CCP and if they do i want my initial investment back iv bought for more then 20 billion bpo's and im not super rich or sc*****in billions per week ive got a steady income and my estimated return value is approx. 2 - 3 years on the bpo's. So either ccp makes npc corps buy the bpo's back at the cost ive paid for em or take 20 billion from invention people. Makes equal amounts of sense as youre arguments that i should loose 20 bill. You need to read the above also, you take a RISK putting this much ISK into ANYTHING in EVE, no doubt you have made your fair share of ISKY
Gaia Thorn Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.18 13:55:00 - [49] Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 18/09/2007 13:51:46 Originally by: Anson Halleck Originally by: Wizzkidy Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. Why is that wrong? It took me over 2 years of trading to get ISK for my Tech2 BPO collection, are you saying that my effort was completly useless and I should be at par with random guy who just started inventing yesterday? I don't think so. Everyone can get Tech2 BPO, sell forum is full of them. They just need to stop whinning and make some ISK instead. Did you read my post? 1. I'm not whinning, im adding to the discussion. 2. You know the risks when you put that much investment into anything in EVE this goes for BPO's / ships / modules. so saying "I have spent blah blah blah i'm entitled to the advantage is BS because you knew the risks. Quote: Im sorry but turning t2 bpo's into bpc shouldnt even be considerd by CCP and if they do i want my initial investment back iv bought for more then 20 billion bpo's and im not super rich or sc*****in billions per week ive got a steady income and my estimated return value is approx. 2 - 3 years on the bpo's. So either ccp makes npc corps buy the bpo's back at the cost ive paid for em or take 20 billion from invention people. Makes equal amounts of sense as youre arguments that i should loose 20 bill. You need to read the above also, you take a RISK putting this much ISK into ANYTHING in EVE, no doubt you have made your fair share of ISKY Did you read my post ? just to break even i need to have my bpo's in production for over 2 - 3 years unless some miracoulus breakthrough in productions comes out. And tbh invention was to replace the BPO lottery not replace the bpo's themselfs.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Gaia Thorn Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 18/09/2007 13:51:46 Originally by: Anson Halleck Originally by: Wizzkidy Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. Why is that wrong? It took me over 2 years of trading to get ISK for my Tech2 BPO collection, are you saying that my effort was completly useless and I should be at par with random guy who just started inventing yesterday? I don't think so. Everyone can get Tech2 BPO, sell forum is full of them. They just need to stop whinning and make some ISK instead. Did you read my post? 1. I'm not whinning, im adding to the discussion. 2. You know the risks when you put that much investment into anything in EVE this goes for BPO's / ships / modules. so saying "I have spent blah blah blah i'm entitled to the advantage is BS because you knew the risks. Quote: Im sorry but turning t2 bpo's into bpc shouldnt even be considerd by CCP and if they do i want my initial investment back iv bought for more then 20 billion bpo's and im not super rich or sc***in billions per week ive got a steady income and my estimated return value is approx. 2 - 3 years on the bpo's. So either ccp makes npc corps buy the bpo's back at the cost ive paid for em or take 20 billion from invention people. Makes equal amounts of sense as youre arguments that i should loose 20 bill. You need to read the above also, you take a RISK putting this much ISK into ANYTHING in EVE, no doubt you have made your fair share of ISKY Did you read my post ? just to break even i need to have my bpo's in production for over 2 - 3 years unless some miracoulus breakthrough in productions comes out. And tbh invention was to replace the BPO lottery not replace the bpo's themselfs. Hey I'm not saying its coming, I just think it would be a good idea to put everyone on an equal playing field. But the same does go to you though, you have invented in these BPO's at a risk** Just because you "feel" you want your money back don't mean you will get it back, its called a RISK but I wont expect you to understand this. CCP change this game so much you have to look at both angles before you commit yourself these days. This is the bottom line sorry if you don't like it
Eralus	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:04:00 - [51] I used to think we should turn BPOs into BPCs. I have since changed my mind. We just need to have the base ME/PE of invented BPCs be the same as the BPCs they are invented from. The existence of the T2 BPOs isn't the problem. It's the 40% waste penalty on invention. That makes virtually ALL invented BPCs not worth producing, because your material costs are higher than the sell price. I have the skills to invent. I have yet to find a T2 module that I can profit from inventing and selling. I haven't looked through all of them, but I've looked through a lot... _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear.
Mashie Saldana Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:04:00 - [52] Leave the BPOs as they are, just tweak invention a bit, such as lowering the negative ME/PE penalty a bit. Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:12:00 - [53] With regards to invention cost vs T2 BPO's I'm living proof that inventors can compete with T2 holders. Negative ME/PE not withstanding. I set up a large tower and started buying basic/mid range reaction material. Bought the component bpos, the advanced reaction bpos, and started building a chain of reactions from the ground up. I don't mine all the moons I need, its too costly. Currently I can buy from other moon miners what i need, combine with what I do mine, and react the materials into ferm conds, nanos, hyper fibers...whatever. I then take my reactions, back to my invention system, build the components, and build my invented stuff. Sure, it takes more work, time wise, but the cost savings are, how should I say, enormous. I build my own tools, run cosmos now and then for the decryptors i need, and have a few agents dedicated to the fields required. You can compete, without calling for nerfage, you just have to use your head... (I own T2 Bpos as well...) Kaaii According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
RaTTuS BIG Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:16:00 - [54] make the invention use modified ME \| PE values not the ME \| PE levels of the BPC but make them effect the outcome. -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve & RaTTuS Home
Gane Green Gallente The Funny Farm	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:20:00 - [55] I like how some people is talking like they just aquired their tech 2 bpo collection as of this moment, and didnt live thru the 500% markup era of holding tech 2 bpo's. Like someone else said if you spent billions on a bpo that is not going to return any time soon maybe you made the wrong choice on wich one to buy.
Mashie Saldana Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:21:00 - [56] Originally by: Kaaii I then take my reactions, back to my invention system, build the components, and build my invented stuff. Sure, it takes more work, time wise, but the cost savings are, how should I say, enormous. I build my own tools, run cosmos now and then for the decryptors i need, and have a few agents dedicated to the fields required. And you belive mined minerals are free unfortunately. Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
kimish	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:22:00 - [57] i do agree with you. it is ******** that those t2 bpo's is still in the game _____ _____ "When the moderators are gone, the trolls dances on the table."
Darth Felin	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:32:00 - [58] well I still think that having a such BPOs is a serious disbalance because invention is not and won't be a direct competition to t2 BPO. It can only help to keep a t2 equipment at price at reasonable level. All BPO should be converted to BPC OR there are should be some way to seed new ones.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:54:00 - [59] Edited by: Anson Halleck on 18/09/2007 14:54:29 Originally by: Wizzkidy Edited by: Wizzkidy on 18/09/2007 13:51:46 Originally by: Anson Halleck Originally by: Wizzkidy Anyway I kinda agree with the turn BPO's into high run BPC's its the only way forward for invention. People with T2 BPO's will always have a large advantage over inventors, this should not be the case. Why is that wrong? It took me over 2 years of trading to get ISK for my Tech2 BPO collection, are you saying that my effort was completly useless and I should be at par with random guy who just started inventing yesterday? I don't think so. Everyone can get Tech2 BPO, sell forum is full of them. They just need to stop whinning and make some ISK instead. Did you read my post? 1. I'm not whinning, im adding to the discussion. I said "they", which were directed to OP and people like him, not to you. Originally by: Wizzkidy 2. You know the risks when you put that much investment into anything in EVE this goes for BPO's / ships / modules. so saying "I have spent blah blah blah i'm entitled to the advantage is BS because you knew the risks. Quote: Im sorry but turning t2 bpo's into bpc shouldnt even be considerd by CCP and if they do i want my initial investment back iv bought for more then 20 billion bpo's and im not super rich or sc*****in billions per week ive got a steady income and my estimated return value is approx. 2 - 3 years on the bpo's. So either ccp makes npc corps buy the bpo's back at the cost ive paid for em or take 20 billion from invention people. Makes equal amounts of sense as youre arguments that i should loose 20 bill. You need to read the above also, you take a RISK putting this much ISK into ANYTHING in EVE, no doubt you have made your fair share of ISKY Can you give me one single example, where property often worth of tens of Billions was taken from Eve players by sudden change? I mean, something like Motherships changed into Frigates, or Outposts changed to small POSes. Invention is ok - this can be taken as evolution of the game, it already hit all T2 BPO owners badly. But taking their property away completly is just plain wrong. And replacing BPO by BPC you are taking away tens of billions from players.
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Anson Halleck Can you give me one single example, where property often worth of tens of Billions was taken from Eve players by sudden change? Lsaa's anchored in empire? According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,

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