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Mashie Saldana Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.18 14:58:00 - [61] Originally by: Kaaii Edited by: Kaaii on 18/09/2007 14:48:46 Originally by: Mashie Saldana Originally by: Kaaii I then take my reactions, back to my invention system, build the components, and build my invented stuff. Sure, it takes more work, time wise, but the cost savings are, how should I say, enormous. I build my own tools, run cosmos now and then for the decryptors i need, and have a few agents dedicated to the fields required. And you belive mined minerals are free unfortunately. No where did i say in my post I believed mined mins are free. My point was, that by thinking outside the box, you could compete. Sorry you missed it. Check the opportunity value for all materials you produce, items you find in exploration and datacores you get from agents. Then compare that to the value of your produced T2 goods as that is your real profit. If not you are only hiding the real cost from yourself. Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas
Kaaii Caldari Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:03:00 - [62] After 4 years of playing, manufacturing, etc, I'm intimately familure with real vs hidden costs. The misnomer that time does not equate to isks etc. My numbers are rock solid. I do make more by doing it myself, though out the chain. Invention can be profitable, and can compete with bp originals, if you know what you are doing. I do. According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
RigelKentaurus Flying Reblochons Caldari Deep Space Industral	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:05:00 - [63] I used to think T2 BPOs need to be nerfed too. But now, I think that instead of nerfing current T2 BPOs, CCP should give inventors a way to convert their BPCs into BPO, that wouldn't be easy and would require a lot a work though. _________ Someday, EVE might look like this.
Hilabana Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:06:00 - [64] No matter what you say or do CCP will not do any thing for you! when it comes to T2 the players out in 0.0 can buy all the T2 BPO's in the game with the ISK they make from selling GTC ingame to the macro ...... aaaahhhhh the high sec miners that use macro program keyboards. As for you ever getting any BPO's or doing Invention why not just be happy in high sec mining ore for the rich ISK buyers in 0.0
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:13:00 - [65] Originally by: Anson Halleck replacing BPO by BPC you are taking away tens of billions from players. You seem to be skipping what I put in my last two posts, this is the RISK you take when you bought / buy a BPO. If they decide to change this then you could do nothing about it and rightly so and IMO it should happen.
Lilian Long	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:25:00 - [66] Originally by: Hilabana No matter what you say or do CCP will not do any thing for you! when it comes to T2 the players out in 0.0 can buy all the T2 BPO's in the game with the ISK they make from selling GTC ingame to the macro ...... aaaahhhhh the high sec miners that use macro program keyboards. A lot of people in 0.0 buy gtcs themselves to fuel their x accounts. And some in 0.0 sell gtcs, because they lack the time to grind for isk to replace their ships. As for selling gtcs to obtain tech-2 BPOs, what keeps an empire player from doing it ? It doesn't have anything to do with being in 0.0 or empire.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:25:00 - [67] Edited by: Anson Halleck on 18/09/2007 15:27:53 Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Anson Halleck replacing BPO by BPC you are taking away tens of billions from players. You seem to be skipping what I put in my last two posts, this is the RISK you take when you bought / buy a BPO. If they decide to change this then you could do nothing about it and rightly so and IMO it should happen. I accept risk of game evolution - i.e. Invention. I do not accept massive change in game mechanics like this magical change of BPOs into BPCs would be. By your logic players should accept the risk, that their Montherships, Titans, Outposts / whatever expensive can just disappear any day. BTW you still owe me some example where massively used items worth of tens of billions were removed from game after many years of existence.
Wizzkidy Demonic Retribution Pure.	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:27:00 - [68] Originally by: Anson Halleck Originally by: Wizzkidy Originally by: Anson Halleck replacing BPO by BPC you are taking away tens of billions from players. You seem to be skipping what I put in my last two posts, this is the RISK you take when you bought / buy a BPO. If they decide to change this then you could do nothing about it and rightly so and IMO it should happen. I accept risk of game evolution - i.e. Invention. I do not accept massive change in game mechanics like this magical change of BPOs into BPCs would be. Guess what "magical" changes do happen in this game as stated above with the removal of high sec pos's - again I'm not saying this will happen but hey if it does then you really cannot moan about it.
Anson Halleck Lost Eden	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:30:00 - [69] Originally by: Wizzkidy Guess what "magical" changes do happen in this game as stated above with the removal of high sec pos's - again I'm not saying this will happen but hey if it does then you really cannot moan about it. That is quite different case. Highsec capital production was never wanted feature, it was always semi-exploit, as usage of these ships in highsec was strongly restricted. BPOs are in game since the beginning and they always worked as they were supposed to.
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.18 15:38:00 - [70] All t2 bpos will turn to high run bpcs soon.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 16:10:00 - [71] I don't own any T2 BPOs... But I would like to... I also have not started the invention part, but I will at some time in the future. LetÆs look at the posts on this thread and get a couple of points... 1) Folks that own T2 BPOs earned them (lets ignore those few that did not earn them for this discussion). 2) Folks that have come to understand Invention can out profit those who only use T2 BPOs. This shows the Value of T2 BPOs have been reduced far below what folks paid for them prior to the advent of Invention. In other words, the nerf of T2 BPOs has already happened. Personally, I would like to see T2 BPOs, not on the market per say, but available... a way for those of us that were not lucky in the Lottery or not playing when the lottery was being run to gain one or more T2 BPOs... a rare drop in a few select missions... a slight, almost negligible chance to find one in a exploration site... an extremely rare reward granted for R&D missions. Keeping the current T2 BPOs as they are is the only fair way to treat those that worked to own them, regardless of the profit they made, because T2 BPOs do not guarantee profit unless one uses (or sells) those BPOs. --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.09.18 16:14:00 - [72] Go back to Russia commie.
JamnOne Amarr	Posted - 2007.09.18 16:35:00 - [73] Originally by: Harry Paratesteas Um this is my main. Work huh? This is a game not work. If any of you take it seriously, you seriously need help. Can I get some answers here or is this going to be a flame-fest by t2 bpo owners. If I whine, it's my right to do so. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it or respond. I won't flame. I don't own any T2 BPO. I will say yes to work and invention. If you can't do it on your own join a corp that is willing to help. There are several corps out there that have no problem with invention and have all the resources available to do this. Leave the T2 BPO people alone. For whatever reason whether they won them or paid for them, they are theirs. They played the game and got them. Have a Nice Day! ______________________________________________________ "The History of every major Galactic Civilization tends to pass through three distinct and recognizable phases, those of Survival, Inquiry and Sophistication, otherwise known as the How, Why and Where
Reecoh Soltar Exotic Dancer Talent Agency	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:07:00 - [74] Originally by: Akita T The only possible way anybody could hope to get a new T2 BPO would be if an old one was destroyed and for some twisted reason somebody at CCP suddendly decided it's time to reseed the destroyed BPOs. So bottom line, nope, not bloody likely to ever see any BPOs from the lottery again. Apparently, re-seeds are happening, per this Noah Ward interview: http://evevault.ign.com/View.php?view=Interviews.Detail&id=3 Quote: John: A question about BPOs. If an account goes dormant or is permanently banned, what happens to the BPOs on that account? Noah: From banned accounts, we typically put them back into the system. We did have this the other day where a big time ISK seller that had a lot of BPOs was banned and we just reseeded the blueprints. Since we keep getting more and more customers when a big time exploiter gets banned and he has a lot of blueprints, those get reseeded. But we are really trying to work with the invention system so that it more a thing where we don't have to seed the original blueprints. Even though having a limited number of original blueprints does server the purpose that we originally wanted it to serve - only certain people can create certain items - there is also the fact that it's just not fun for some of the other people who didn't have the option or resources to get blueprints. People want a model where they can work towards the things they want to produce. There's not major changes coming in the next patch but the invention system is something that we want to expand on. When Tech 3 comes in, it will be a new improved kind of invention system.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:07:00 - [75] This whole thread reek of jealousy and lack of common sense. Nothing should be permanent? What about the T1 BPos and interfaces, then? BPO holders shouldn't have an advantage over inventors? What about the massive multi-bilions investment in buying one, or the efforts in getting several high-quality R&D agents, and doing missions for them every day? Whine some more, please... If you want to invent without getting undercut but T2 BPO owners, you can already do it with the 16 or so modules recently added, and you will be abl to do it with the ships and modules added in Revelations III, and the content that will be added after that. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:15:00 - [76] Originally by: punnani People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. Loser. - Gob Stealth bombers work!
Safel Nastra	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:31:00 - [77] Originally by: punnani Yeap. Agreed. Remove T2 BPOs and boost invention. You can't just hand over some random people an uber advantage in the game by lottery and then just stop. All people should have that minimal hope of getting it. People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. So I have no pity for T2 buyers. Obviously there are exceptions. Right now, the way it stands sux for the most while benefiting the few. You're very much wrong. It is possible to make the money for a 40 bil HAC BPO with perfectly legal methods in just 3-6 months. If you don't have the ability to imagine how it can be done and no rich friends, it doesn't mean you should be accusing people who have earned their billions by being resourceful of various illegal activity.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:51:00 - [78] Originally by: Gane Green I like how some people is talking like they just aquired their tech 2 bpo collection as of this moment, and didnt live thru the 500% markup era of holding tech 2 bpo's. Like someone else said if you spent billions on a bpo that is not going to return any time soon maybe you made the wrong choice on wich one to buy. And some people talk as all the T2 BPO had 500% markup and all where seeded 2 years ago. Myabe you aren't aware of that but the last lottery ended in june this year, 8 months after the introduction of invention. Originally by: Xaen You seem to have completely written off the resources and time required to get the materials for invention. Which makes sense given that you're a BPO owner arguing to keep your money printer. And I'm not even in the production business, nor invention business. Tech II BPOs were a flawed concept to begin with, it places far too much economic power in the hands of very few, seemingly based on luck but also it seems developer connections. They should either be attainable by everybody (such as with invention) or by nobody. Not only should tech II bpos be removed, but they should never have existed in the first place. First, as I pointed above, it was possible to get BPO till some month ago. I have got my two with the last lottery in december and january. Anyone could have got T2 BPO if he had put the work in the research. To get mine I had 15 R6D agent working, more than 12 million skill points in science divided between 3 character and standing 7+ with the relevant corporations for those 3 characters, not exactly a gift from the sky. When I received the mail offering the BPO I did some calculation to see if the BPo was worth it as I was paying it in datacores I would not receive (accepting a BPO offer whipe out all the accumulated RP on that researcher). I do a lot of invention too. Fun thing is that most of you are wrong about the costs. The 40% wastage is an annoyance, but not so important (it influence only the minerals used, not the other costs), the increase in time needed is more telling but again not deadly. The key cost are the datacore and the mechanic with wich the datacore cost is determinated. The datacores price will always be set by the more rewarding invention jobs possible, so all the invention jobs with a lesser return will be automatically at a loss or reduced return (if you think that wath you produce yourself is free you are wrong). Currently the BPO (even thanks to the increased number seeded in november with teh last lottery) are keeping low a lot of the BPO prices. If all the T2 BPO where removed the production of all the modules with a price lower than 800K would grind to an alt as the datacore cost is currently higher. The small production left after all the stocked module where sold woll ask for very high prices for the modules. A small example: Acolyte II - materials cost for a invented BPC = 30K isk (20K if done with a unreserched BPO, and notice it is one of the worst example as it use more minerals han the average BP, generally the difference is smaller) - cost of getting a invented BPC with 10 runs = 2 millions, so 200K extra for each acolyte. As the Acolyte sell at 60K the larger need of materials is easily affordable, and the larger production through invention make possible to get a return, what make it a losing activity is the invention cost. But lowering that cost (through more accessible datacores) will greatly lower the invention cost of the modules giving a higher return, so again all the inventors will move there. To sum it: if you remove the T2 BPO all the low priced modules and ships will rise in price and become very scarce or CCP will flood teh market with extremly cheap datacores too and T2 invention will get the return of T1 production.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 17:57:00 - [79] Originally by: Kaaii Originally by: Anson Halleck Can you give me one single example, where property often worth of tens of Billions was taken from Eve players by sudden change? Lsaa's anchored in empire? They where not lost, only unachored. And it was an unsellable item. You can thank the people advertising the use of a Rorqual in high sec too, that moved your positionf from a big advantage to an exploit.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:00:00 - [80] what? CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Manic Smile Tau Ceti Global Production Angels Of Discord	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:15:00 - [81] Originally by: Jinx Barker I say we turn the whole of EVE into Hello Kitty in space. Nerf T2 BPOs. Yes because T2 BPOs make for more challenging gameplay.../sarcasm Give me a break, invention is 100% more difficult/annoying then using a BPO. The only pro T2 BPO arguement is "I don't wanna lose BPO" really the vast majority of us, those that don't have a T2 BPO, do not care, this is Eve. CCP should take your BPO and you get to move on and struggle...or you can quit and donate me your stuff. You know...like all the vet players tell the poor noobs. *courtesy of www.flickr.com I hate the jpeg format.
Ardent Rellik Gallente MURAKAMI INDUSTRIES	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:20:00 - [82] Originally by: punnani People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. So I have no pity for T2 buyers. LOL, everyone who has a T2 BPO is a macrominer or ISK buyer/seller? What you think this is a communist state or something. There is so much jealousy here bantering to lowest possible denominator it is not funny. Stupid people with their little lives, like yours would not understand it, and would whine forever. 1) T2 BPOS are no longer ISK printing machines, on HACS you be lucky to break even with a successful inventor who is running 10 Jobs and can build 30 Ships in 3 Days, where it would take a T2 BPO owner about 40 days to build the same 30 Hacs. 2) The margins on T2 at this point, at least on most, is about 25%, that is IT, yea, it is no longer what it was, with 300-500% profits! 3) T2 is more accessible because of Invention+BPO Owners to the public, no more monopolies, T2 Cloaks anyone? Hulks? Anyway, stop being so stupid jealous of everyone and go do some inventing, only people whining about invention now is the ones who think they are entitled to always hit a lucky streak. Doing anything to T2 BPOs would be stupidest thing in the world. They are a permanent investment, and people who got them, worked hard for them. They are no loner Win EVE button, but merely a convenience. But seriously..... I am quoting this again so more people could read and see the ridiculous little man behind the quote: Originally by: Punnani People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. So I have no pity for T2 buyers.
Pizi Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:32:00 - [83] Can you give me one single example, where property often worth of tens of Billions was taken from Eve players by sudden change? I mean, something like Motherships changed into Frigates, or Outposts changed to small POSes. --------------------------- remember the small TB fiasco ? people lost alot overnight _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
343conspiracy43345	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:34:00 - [84] All t2 bpos will turn to high run bpcs soon.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.18 18:54:00 - [85] Originally by: Pizi Can you give me one single example, where property often worth of tens of Billions was taken from Eve players by sudden change? I mean, something like Motherships changed into Frigates, or Outposts changed to small POSes. --------------------------- remember the small TB fiasco ? people lost alot overnight Wrong, they have lost nothyng, they only have not gained. Buying Small Tractor Beam BPO has a change the NPC market price was annunced, hoping to sell them at x10 the buy price was an inventiment in futures. But when the price was not changed the players still had the BPO, worth the same isk they had spent to buy them. So they havn't realized a huge profit, but they had lost nothing. And Ginger, be careful, you are permabanned. You are giving away who you are.
Goberth Ludwig eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.09.18 19:15:00 - [86] Originally by: Manic Smile Originally by: Jinx Barker I say we turn the whole of EVE into Hello Kitty in space. Nerf T2 BPOs. Yes because T2 BPOs make for more challenging gameplay.../sarcasm Give me a break, invention is 100% more difficult/annoying then using a BPO. The only pro T2 BPO arguement is "I don't wanna lose BPO" really the vast majority of us, those that don't have a T2 BPO, do not care, this is Eve. CCP should take your BPO and you get to move on and struggle...or you can quit and donate me your stuff. You know...like all the vet players tell the poor noobs. I have a t2 bpo I paid 30 bil for, and invent. I make more money from invention atm, which is how I afforded the t2 bpo in the first place. The reason invention gets more isk is because you can boost your production, multiplying your profits. T2 bpo only prints so many items per day, and that is it - its easier to do but the investment is like 30 time that of invention so explain to me how that is broken. - Gob Stealth bombers work!
Gort Storm Guard Elite	Posted - 2007.09.18 19:41:00 - [87] Life's a *****. Then you die. G -- When in doubt, empty the magazine.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.18 19:46:00 - [88] Edited by: Setana Manoro on 18/09/2007 19:52:10 Edited by: Setana Manoro on 18/09/2007 19:46:51 Originally by: Safel Nastra Edited by: Safel Nastra on 18/09/2007 17:39:55 Originally by: punnani Yeap. Agreed. Remove T2 BPOs and boost invention. You can't just hand over some random people an uber advantage in the game by lottery and then just stop. All people should have that minimal hope of getting it. People who bought T2 BPOs ( the expensive ones) are prob. doing something illegal ( macro-mining, macro-hauling or scamming). I don't know a single person who runs or mines as intented in the game who made 40bil to afford a T2 hac BPO. So I have no pity for T2 buyers. Obviously there are exceptions. Right now, the way it stands sux for the most while benefiting the few. You're very much wrong. It is possible to make the money for a 40 bil HAC BPO with perfectly legal methods in just 3-6 months. If you don't have the ability to imagine how it can be done and no rich friends, it doesn't mean you should be accusing people who have earned their billions by being resourceful of various illegal activity. edit: what the poster above said Before Plexes became "mobile" you could do those 40b in under 3 weeks if you had access to a high-level plex. :) In 0.0 ratting with 3d out of 7 doing some ratting you can make 500m/ week easy. I know of someone who 2 months ago made 1b in 4d of low-sec ratting with a bloody frig. As for me, i did it through buying and reselling faction ships and mods. I have 2 t2 bpo's - low-end mods, that do not make me much but i bought them after invention had already nerfed the ammount of isk you could do off them. So instead of accusing everybody of being macro-miners and gtc sellers maybe they should start using that bloody grey matter instead of asking for "free stuff". PS: My tone is directed at punnani. I'm not neutral in RAGOON vs BOB, I just dislike both sides. :)
Mrs Amadeus	Posted - 2007.09.18 19:51:00 - [89] <--- not happy about invention (sry if I seem grumpy) You T2 BPO owners are right. Instead of wasting the billions I have wasted on invention, I should have just bought a T2 BPO. I mean on a T2 ship I could have at least a 100% mark-up over my invention competitiors for less effort.
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2007.09.18 20:15:00 - [90] Originally by: Kaaii After 4 years of playing, manufacturing, etc, I'm intimately familure with real vs hidden costs. The misnomer that time does not equate to isks etc. My numbers are rock solid. I do make more by doing it myself, though out the chain. Invention can be profitable, and can compete with bp originals, if you know what you are doing. I do. It can be quite profitable, but there's easier and less skill intensive ways that require less online time that can make you more money in manufacturing than tech 2 production through invention. I just started doing invention only to realize that I can't make as much from it per day as I was making (with a lot less effort) from building tech 1 rigs.

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