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Killing Industrials in 1.0 Space

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Carpo Roolie	Posted - 2004.02.17 14:30:00 - [31] killing someone in 1.0 is NOT always an exploit. I have attacked people in 1.0 and managed to get away before concord turn up. Its risky and you have to be quick but its not impossible. You can easily fire off 4 torps and warp away before concord turn up. Granted this is a lot harder at a gate, but not at a belt. Saying that 1.0 is meant to be safe and anyone who kills should be banned is ridiculous.
Deadflip2	Posted - 2004.02.17 15:24:00 - [32] Edited by: Deadflip2 on 17/02/2004 15:28:43 it is a valid tactic if i use it , for all the ppl curious about how it works, ill tell for 20 mil. owh and this is the tactic you wotn lsoe ur ship with if ya do it rights and none of you guys mentioned it in the topic + grid exploits been fixed =P --- "this song reminds me of the girl i met on a schooltrip, she was really nice, and she really liked me. I forgot to ask her her phone number" - Nelix trist OMG im a pretzel!!!
Teeth	Posted - 2004.02.17 17:16:00 - [33] The way I see it there's a combination of game design flaws that allow grief to happen and it's not classified as an exploit. Step 1- make a caldari alt with frig 4 Step 2 - train cruise missiles Step 3 - Get a kestrel BP/BPC with your main and make a kestrel and some cruise missiles for your alt. Step 4 - insure kestrel with you alt Step 5 - Gank an indy with kestrel. Lose the kestrel. Be careful not to pod victim Step 6 - Have buddy pick up loot. Step 7 - eventually your alt will be low enough security that you'll need to either move to lower sec space or scrap your alt and try again. Tada- No exploit, same grief. There are one or more possible game design flaws here: -Alts. Having anonymous and disposable characters opens up way too many grief opportunities. -Other games flag you as attackable when you loot someone else's corpse, etc. I think this would be a good idea for this game. -Cruise missiles on a frigate? Might be part of the problem, but this is part of what makes some frigates viable in PVP so I wouldn't change it. -This flaw will be even worse once negative security decay comes back in as you won't need to trash your cruise missile trained disposable char, you'll just have to take a few weeks off indy ganking. Having said that, I don't think it's a huge flaw and things can probably stay as they are (I've got MWD what do I care ;-). But anyone who doesn't realize this is a game design flaw probably doesn't know much about game design.
Belzavior	Posted - 2004.02.17 17:59:00 - [34] The reason why this should be an exploit is that the person whom is grabbing the loot should also be attacked by concord as they are obviously in league with the attacking kestrels. The problem is that the AI is not smart enough to pick up on this. If the entire raiding party was all shot down and not just the attackers people just wouldn't do this.
doggy5791	Posted - 2004.02.26 00:33:00 - [35] just stick a wapr core stabiiser on and bobs ur uncle concord cant scramble u :)
BlueNoise	Posted - 2004.02.26 01:14:00 - [36] I don't know if this has been said yet but this is why it's an exploit. If you have someone sitting around too pick up the loot from the kill that you had to flee because concord is after you, they are called an Accomplace. They should be guilty of the crime as well. However, there is no game mechanic to recognise this. Designing such a mechanic would be extreemly hard. Thus you are just exploiting faulty game design. There should be a feature that concord takes the loot from their kills and the person they are after kills as "Evidence" then we wouldn't have this problem. Or possibly having concord attack the person picking up the loot if they've been in recent contact with the killer. However, i prefer the first idea more since this may be exploitable.
Alex Duron	Posted - 2004.02.26 05:22:00 - [37] For those of you that wish to know, while the GM's might not consider this an exploit at least some of the DEV's consider it griefing. This excerpt from the csm chat dated 2/18/04 sums it up nicely. ______________________________________________________________________ Quote: Jul Nantu > Q: It seems that there has been a recent increase in the number of attacks in secure space by pirates willing to risk their ships using a coordinated attack strategy. Should we consider 1.0 space to be 100% secure? For example, my Bestower was recently destroyed in Amarr, a system with a 1.0 security rating, by a group of four PC pirates. The attack was well coordinated and a pair of Indys were waiting there to pick up the loot that spilled out of my ship when it exploded. The two attacking ships were destroyed by Concord. Do you consider this valid gameplay or is it considered griefing? Hellmar > I consider this griefing, but unfortunatly the rules of the game are not strict enough in this regard :( ______________________________________________________________________ Sounds like some of the GMÆs need to talk to their bossÆs.
Alex Duron	Posted - 2004.02.26 05:30:00 - [38] And by the way, yes it is still going on. They were doing this in pator last night. Dont remember the corp name but their ticker name was scare.
Carmen Priano	Posted - 2004.02.26 08:34:00 - [39] I believe CCP is working on a solution for this -- 'criminal tagging' for players that grab from unsecure loot cans of other players. The tag wouldn't bring down CONCORD response, but allows for players to attack the 'criminal' for a period of time without worrying about aggressiveness. That's how I believe it works, anyway. In this way, players will supposeably be able to police themselves somewhat more effectively -- and blow up the industrial that does the looting. ;)
Aaaron	Posted - 2004.03.05 14:46:00 - [40] I got killed in my Bestower the other day but in Penirgman 0.7 (I think). I forgot to look at the email of who killed me. (is there a way to un-delete mails?) Any information on who this is would be appreciated. This sort of spoils my tactic of afk mining and would be keen on rtribution. Cheers
Madd Dog	Posted - 2004.03.05 18:06:00 - [41] If it ever happened to you just have your CEO declare war on the corporation they work for, and if you meet again you can kill them in 1.0 space.
EvilDoomer	Posted - 2004.03.05 22:25:00 - [42] Quote: Edited by: Skillz on 15/02/2004 02:25:23 If you illegally attack people in 1.0 and get away with your ship, you're exploiting faulty game mechanics and CCP will have your butt for it. I have shot peeps in 1.0 and in .9 before and did get away. AND!!! Concord did come but my ship was faster and they chased me everywhere!! And I did escape into an different solar. I was perpared and had a warp core stab on. This is not and exploit. My ship was fast and I had bookmarkers setup. I knew Concord was going to blow up my ship if they caught me. SOOOOO!!! I locked, I Fired, I ran like hell. And the guy needed to be shot. So the excitement began!! If you are not allowed to shoot someone in a 1.0 or .9 and this is a sanctuary CCP should make guns and missiles not fire there. BUT!! that would not be a realistic. Peeps get killed everyday and everywhere in the real world. Even in churches. But exploited... I did not! PS:15 minutes later I came back. And I was not so fast that time. Different story. Thanks EvilDoomer Chicago Mobsters Ghost Fleet Pilot
Power	Posted - 2004.03.05 23:09:00 - [43] Edited by: Power on 05/03/2004 23:14:14 Quote: I have shot peeps in 1.0 and in .9 before and did get away. AND!!! Concord did come but my ship was faster and they chased me everywhere!! And I did escape into an different solar. I was perpared and had a warp core stab on. This is not and exploit. My ship was fast and I had bookmarkers setup. I knew Concord was going to blow up my ship if they caught me. SOOOOO!!! I locked, I Fired, I ran like hell. And the guy needed to be shot. So the excitement began!! If you are not allowed to shoot someone in a 1.0 or .9 and this is a sanctuary CCP should make guns and missiles not fire there. BUT!! that would not be a realistic. Peeps get killed everyday and everywhere in the real world. Even in churches. But exploited... I did not! PS:15 minutes later I came back. And I was not so fast that time. Different story. You just described an exploit. Just coz you dont think it is one dosnt matter. GMs say it is, so it is. well the gm that gave me a warning said it was
Nathan Zachary	Posted - 2004.03.06 13:12:00 - [44] Quote: I got killed in my Bestower the other day but in Penirgman 0.7 (I think). I forgot to look at the email of who killed me. (is there a way to un-delete mails?) Any information on who this is would be appreciated. This sort of spoils my tactic of afk mining and would be keen on rtribution. Cheers me fails to see the ironic tags here
Adriana	Posted - 2004.03.08 06:29:00 - [45] I think some of you are missing the point of 1.0 space. It is supposed to be completely safe. Period. If you are abusing game mechanics to gank people in 1.0 you should be banned, and your accomplices in the industrials grabbing loot should be banned to. If you wanna do it in .4 or lower, well ok I guess, but .5 or higher should be met with an immediate ban of your account. Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake. -Napoleon Bonaparte
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2004.03.08 16:59:00 - [46] OK, make it easy, reduce the number of 1.0 systems and make the tactiv allowable in 0.9-0.5. BUT do introduce the criminal flagging system so we all may shoot the offenders (including the pick-up indies) for let's say 15 minutes. Problem soved good enough, without resorting to making all space above 0.4 too damn safe for fun. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Sir JoJo	Posted - 2004.03.08 17:25:00 - [47] Edited by: Sir JoJo on 08/03/2004 17:28:07 Is it an exploit if u can escape before concords get u? cause if not u can just take some frigs load some missiles, shot missiles and warp away and u will get away and a m8 in a indy can take the loot! i dont see that as an exploit cause in rl u can get away from the police why shouldent u could do that in eve! But if gm says it an exploit then its just better not to do it!
Lathe Night	Posted - 2004.03.08 18:42:00 - [48] personally I dont think 1.0 space should be 100% safe. But I do agree that when a PC is blown to pieces concord should recover the items and if the aggressors friend or even an innocent try to scoop it up they should get a pop up warning that the contents are evidence and property of concord and that removal of the contents will only result in podding. this however should only apply to 1.0 and 0.7 areas at the most , this is debateable ofcourse. As far as a 100% assurance that no one will get player killed in 1.0 space is just not right. If a pilot wants to suicide bomb another player for what ever reason i say so be it. Its that very thing that creates the nessesary tension in eve. And everyone should be podded it is a liberating experience. Sigy I don't like warriors! They're too narrow-minded, no sublety. Worse, they fight for hopeless causes. For honor! Honor has killed millions of people but hasn't saved a single one. You k
khainestar	Posted - 2004.03.09 11:50:00 - [49] Quote: Is it an exploit if u can escape before concords get u? I would say no. CONCORD responds as it should you just manage to get away. Even IRL some criminals perform criminal acts in broad daylight and get away with it. Quote: personally I dont think 1.0 space should be 100% safe Agreed. 1.0 Safe should be safe space but nowhere should be 100% safe. Quote: if the aggressors friend or even an innocent try to scoop it up they should get a pop up warning that the contents are evidence and property of concord and that removal of the contents will only result in podding. Now thats a nice idea. They can still pick up the loot but they are going to have to run like hell when they got it. There should always be the chance of escape no matter how slim. Maybe CONCORD should adapt to the gankers as the gankers have been forced to adapt to CONCORD ----------------------------------------------------- Pain. Looks great on other people. Its what there for.
Jack Ripp3r	Posted - 2004.03.09 12:21:00 - [50] loool bah everyone go suck egg whoo is soo goooood dam bet ur house is clean and u say ur prayers before u goto sleep pffft exploit its an exploit booo hooo best these ppl learn to watch out who is around because ur moaners are running the game basically if u cant take getting killed weather 1.0 or 0.0 DONT PLAY THE GAME GET IT ... IT MEANS UR S88T AT THE GAME AND IT ISNT FOR U GO BACK TO MONOPOLY PFFT ..people do the same ting in real life they rob a bank and use a car to get away ..nowere should be safe 1.0 should be safe to a certain point but thats it OOH AND TO ALL U CRYING plz flame cos i and others will keep ganking u time and time and time again till u learn open ur eyes or quit cos u suck
EvilDoomer	Posted - 2004.03.09 18:54:00 - [51] Quote: I think some of you are missing the point of 1.0 space. It is supposed to be completely safe. Period. If you are abusing game mechanics to gank people in 1.0 you should be banned, and your accomplices in the industrials grabbing loot should be banned to. If you wanna do it in .4 or lower, well ok I guess, but .5 or higher should be met with an immediate ban of your account. We need a debate on this. I have 6 accounts!!!! Ban me for shooting someone is dumb. This game is based on shooting people or NPC's. I should be able to shoot anywhere I want. Its not a exploit! Its having fun. Or like I said make the solars a no fire zone with the mechanics of the game, Then If I "CAN STILL" shoot is then an exploit. And then I should be banned. Thanks EvilDoomer Chicago Mobsters Ghost Fleet Pilot
Dogma2003	Posted - 2004.03.09 21:28:00 - [52] Quote: Quote: I think some of you are missing the point of 1.0 space. It is supposed to be completely safe. Period. If you are abusing game mechanics to gank people in 1.0 you should be banned, and your accomplices in the industrials grabbing loot should be banned to. If you wanna do it in .4 or lower, well ok I guess, but .5 or higher should be met with an immediate ban of your account. We need a debate on this. I have 6 accounts!!!! Ban me for shooting someone is dumb. This game is based on shooting people or NPC's. I should be able to shoot anywhere I want. Its not a exploit! Its having fun. Or like I said make the solars a no fire zone with the mechanics of the game, Then If I "CAN STILL" shoot is then an exploit. And then I should be banned. I completely agree with EVILDOOMER on this SO CALLED EXPLOIT and his IDEA TO FIX IT!! If the game mechanics are weak in that area, CCP will have to work on it and get it fixed. They could beef up the cops in that area or have COPS in each belt to make sure this doesn't happen. To BAN someone for shooting another player in a 1.0 ABSURD!!!!! For POD KILLING noobs in a .8~1.0 why sure if they are not at war. Just because something shouldn't happen doesn't always mean it won't happen!! If you want to make 1.0~.8 safe for NOOBS, implement a NO FIRE GUNS ZONE under NOOB space and if your not ready for action, then stay in those areas.In RL, if you take no chances you never know what you might have missed out on. As far as what happened with Zombies, if this IDEA was implemented, there would be no chance of a NOOB PLAYER getting shot/podded either during CORP WARS or otherwise. I have shot at people in higher security sectors before cause I didn't know any better or because someone locked me when I was a NOOB. Should I be BANNED FOR THAT???????....I DON'T think so!!!! If you BANNED EVERYONE that ever shot at someone in a 1.0 .9 more then probably half of EVE would be BANNED and there would be noone online. I don't think EVE was developed to be a MINING game. If you want a CUSHY game go get out your Super Nintendo(TM) and play SUPER MARIO BROTHERS(TM) With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels.
Dogma2003	Posted - 2004.03.09 21:41:00 - [53] Quote: If it ever happened to you just have your CEO declare war on the corporation they work for, and if you meet again you can kill them in 1.0 space. Amen Madd Dog!! With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels.
Talon Darklighter	Posted - 2004.03.10 22:56:00 - [54] I just dont see how some of the tactics listed are an exploit. Yes using your friends to scoop up the cargo, I can see as being exploitive. But if your own ship and skills are fast enough to evade the police, how in the heck is that an exploit? You do have multiple characters right? what if you blow up the indy, log out (even if you get killed) log in your alt with his indy and head out to the spot and scoop everything up. Is that an exploit too? Come on, these players are using valid tactics to snuff their noses at the police. I used two accounts once (mine and a friends) and I took two newbs I had created to 1.0 space. I targeted and shot someone with BOTH ships, concord responded, and blew up one of my guys, but the other managed to get away. The police chased him around but I still managed to escape, is that an exploit too? the Ai worked the EXACT way it was supposed to. I think everyone is overreacting to this entire scenario, and I am not even a pirate, so dont say I am siding with them, but come on, the WHOLE idea of police is to respond with the law has been broken. If a player can get away, then so be it, that does not seem like an exploit to me. ANyway just my 2 isk
Piscis	Posted - 2004.03.11 10:25:00 - [55] Quote: 2. Use a Badger II with shield hardners and shield boosters and a smartbomb. aaaargh! missiles! I know, I'll use my smartbomb! Whats that skippy? There is a sentry gun/ gate/ newsboard/ n00b ship within the blast radius?!?! you want me to follow you to the old well? Well I can't cos the damn sentries and Concord just blasted my ass, and the pirates get my loot without even loosing their ships!
Arcane	Posted - 2004.03.11 10:43:00 - [56] It's true that you may be able to get away in RL with shooting someone even in front of the police. Still, this is not RL and no matter if you like it or not, there are still people not interested in PvP who should still be able to play. I therefore think we do need some places to be 100% safe (1.0) and a lot of systems being quite safe (0.9-.05). It may not be realistic but helps increasing the player base and therefore the gaming experience for all of us. p.s.: I am in 0.4 and lower 80% of myself but still think we need a playground for all people. Be quick or be dead ...
Huron	Posted - 2004.03.11 14:20:00 - [57] Edited by: Huron on 11/03/2004 14:36:45 Edited by: Huron on 11/03/2004 14:35:45 Edited by: Huron on 11/03/2004 14:22:28 Whether or not this is an exploit or griefing can be answered by the question, "What can the victim do to defend himself when docking/undocking/jumping in 1.0 space?" The target (or for that matter anyone else) can't shoot his attackers as Concord will kill him. Plus, how much damage can he do before he gets hit with several cruise missiles. As another poster pointed out, smartbombs are just as likely to get you killed when the damage splashes onto a third party. Defenders? Everyone knows how reliable they are. Other than those two there are not a lot of mechanisms to take out 3-6 incoming cruise missiles. Know his attackers? They're alts. Which means they change every few weeks anyways (Getting cruise missile skill takes awhile. However, if you have your suicide alt account, you can have his replacement sitting in the wings training. When one is too well know delete, start him over and the next one is ready is probably ready. The more accounts you have the quicker you can rotate characters.) Declaring war on their corporation doesn't do you any good after you are dead and they have scooped up something worth millions compared to their 200-300k ISK ships. They are disposable alts that are throwing away their ships with suicide attacks. What damage can you do them that they haven't done themselves? Plus, their corporation isn't very likely to be the corporation of their mains unless they are very very stupid. CCP can't declare no combat in 1.0 space because they have to allow corporate wars. The nasty solution for this in 1.0 space is this: When a player's ship is destroyed by someone not engaged in war with them, the following things happen: All training is suspended on the attacker's account. The account is automatically banned for 1-5 days. The remains of the target is flagged as stolen with the player's name and corporation. If someone else aside from the target or his corporation tries to pick it up, they get a warning and if they ignore their security rating is set to and they are free game for anyone... Actually, the simplest solution is that you cannot lock onto another player that is not a member of your corporation or someone at war with your corporation. Huron Gradient
Busko Moonwalker	Posted - 2004.03.12 09:03:00 - [58] I say let GMs deside if it exploit or not im damn tired of all you experts if its one or not. And to all that loss a ship in safe space not to NPC or Corp war petention it as cheat or what ever and see what happens. Hopefully they get banned and you get ur stuff back. :D And stop comparing RL with EVE its so lame.
Borunel	Posted - 2004.03.12 12:25:00 - [59] Edited by: Borunel on 12/03/2004 12:26:58 Quote: <snip - boring> I don't think EVE was developed to be a MINING game. If you want a CUSHY game go get out your Super Nintendo(TM) and play SUPER MARIO BROTHERS(TM) Thing is, in the same way teflon was never designed to line frying pans, - whatever EVE was designed to be it has turned out to be a fairly majorly mining game. I wouldn't pretend to know the population split on this but I see a lot more people playing as miners or agent runners or industrialist or traders or even PvE NPC hunters than I even hear whispers of people as PvPers. So even if it was designed as a free for all space combat simulator - which it wasn't simple as that - it has turned into something far more diverse and colourful in which PKing is a minority concern. CCP will cater to the majority as is right and proper and moreover profitable whilst allowing everyone their pecadillos. Beyond that, it certainly not up to us to decide what is right and wrong and what punishments should be doled out. See the thing is the majority of people DON'T want a 'cushy' game, they want the small privilege of being allowed to chose when and where they wish to indulge in risk taking and when not to and to be allowed the very tiny (empire) space in which to do it. Perhaps the correct analysis is that if YOU want to go about killing other human beings online then go to unsecure space or better still go to a first-person shooter game. Then again if the people you go up against are expecting trouble and losses then I daresay the whingers would derive very little pleasure knowing they can't upset anyone. <<You call them Yulai and Aurohunen and P3 and and a hundred other systems - We used to call it Brit. Bridge - and it never made any sense then either matey! - Jack Blood>>
Elaine Marley	Posted - 2004.03.12 16:41:00 - [60] Quote: I recently encountered a small group of pirates using an interesting tactic to kill industrial ships in 1.0 secure space. Is it possible that you have seen, blown NPC Indus in 1.0 etc...? Thats possible, concord would do nothing only the sentries are getting nervous if youre in their distance... blowing them up only costs the standing to NPC Corps. Else they would have done it with alts, and collecting the loot with mains or another alt. Podding Regards Elaine Marley Put the money on the table, here is the Inflation Control Veni, Vedi, Vici

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