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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 05:56:00 -
[1]
So far there has been no effective way to stop missile spam, defenders just flat out dont work, smartbomb work a little but the timing and their high cap usage keep them of most ships. I am glad that there may at long last be a way to defend against missile spam, I use missiles alot myself but I still welcome this change. I can see many caracal, bb and raven pilots screaming their lungs out on how this is just yet another nerf bat to caldari ships but I dont agree. Drones die easily and they should be ablt to shoot down missiles lets just hope they have good AI, not something absurd and stupid like the defenders.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:06:00 -
[2]
You forgot few more dalman, as we doing crazy talk now I put my vote for the best one. Dont launch the game period then no missile can even hurt you, of course if you feel like playing the odds a bit you can always hide in station also avoid any missile damage. 
Back to eve world now, smartboms and missile are teh suck. Speed only work in some condition for certain ships its a non issue majority of bs battles. Warping out is same as running away the other guy can do the same thing, again not a real option. Shooting them is not an option either as it takes a long time to target such small thing by then it already hit you or is just about to. Leaving us with no effective way to counter missile, the best current way it to soak them up with your shield tank and thats just wrong. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:46:00 -
[3]
Dalman why are you ranting on about this? Defenders dont work at all, they aim for the first incoming missile and miss it most of the time and never catch up after that. Having a ton of defenders launched they just fly around stupid instead of going after missiles. They seem to only target prior to launch and if that missile is gone they go stupid. Instead of go after one missile per defender they all go after one missile or so it looks like. Have you even used them in real combat? In all the testing we have done between me and friends defenders can only defend against one or two rogue cruise coming in from very far away. Any ship with 4 launcher will easily overpower 4 launchers with defenders. Leaving the guy with defenders with 4 wasted slots that could have been putting out decent damage instead. If defenders had better ai they could be usefull but as they are now its a waste of slots in combat.
Smartbombs work a little better but range and recycle time prevent them from being used in combat effectively. They require constant babysitting to activate on time, they suck too much cap for larges and have too long recycle time. Running multiple bombs seem to have a negative effect where by they cancel part of each other out. I had 8 large smart bomb setup for testing and they were doing crap damage even staggered. Even with 4 large going staggered some missiles were still getting through, most likely bad programming but still they were getting through.
There is no current good defence against missiles period, there are a bunch of half assed ways. Either the current systems need to be fixed or something new has to come in. Of course you neglect to mention that having anti missile drones you loose the ability to use attack drones. In my book thats a fair trade off, anyone that doubt the power of 8-10 ogres needs to have their head checked. I would have to test the new drones to see how good they are before I would instantly jump to using def drones vs attack ogres. These new drones are not some uber weapon and will be weak and stupid most likely.
I use a typhoon which is 4/4 setup so I use cruise missiles for roughly half my damage output yet you dont see me crying over def drones. If they use def drones they not attacking me with their ogres and I can pick of their little drones without too much trouble. This will be a welcome tool to counter missile spamming tactics, doubt it will work to well looking at the current anti missile systems.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:00:00 -
[4]
I am a heavy missile user and I am not having a hard time, I think you mean that some missile carriers meaning the ships are getting a beating now. Who ever could have guessed that a pure missile boat has disadvantages!  Its all about trade offs and currently I dont see any trade off for missiles, worst case they have to use fofs. As for turret they cant do anything at all in worst case. The easy mounting requirements for missiles is also a huge plus for their users. The only current drawback is cost and delay before initial damage. Both are not lethal just require a little better tactics nothing major. Take an apoc with 8 turrets yes thats alot of power but it can easily be taken out with even one dampner. Give that the extreme turret setup, take an extreme raven setup. The raven cant be really hindered that much, as I mention so he has to switch to fof they still hurt alot in volume. Just like all turret setups all missile setups should be easily defeated with right counter. People should be forced to bring an all around good setup or risk being easily killed if they over specialize. Def drones may give that option to defeat missile spam the way a dampner or ecm can defeat turrets. Forcing ravens to use more turrets in their loadouts so they dont get screwed.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:03:00 -
[5]
Dalman I will gladly demonstrate how useless both defenders and smart bombs are in real combat if we ever run into each other on chaos. I can only assume that you havent really tested either in combat to think they work at all. They sound great on paper but in real combat they both fail badly.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 10:45:00 -
[6]
Dalman you in your panic attack over missiles are missing the point. Why do you think that these new drones would cancel out 100% of missiles? Thats absurd anyway you look at it, even if they can get rid of half the missiles coming my way they would be worth it. You also miss the point of my quote which was to show that a balanced setup is the way it should be. Relying completely on missile is stupid just like relying completely on turrets. Cruise and torpedos do plenty of damage considering you cant counter them with much effect. If defenders worked properly then I would not be so eager for new antimissile options.
Each ship should either go all out with one setup and become easy target for other counter specialized ships or they should go for a balanced setup that can deal with anything. All this missile moaning is getting old, currently very few things can beat a torpedo or cruise missile spamming raven so stop with the god damn *****ing about how weak they are. Anyone that expect to shoot down a porjectile traveling at huge speeds is crazy. Hitting a bullet with a bullter is not possible, hitting a relatively slow traveling big missile loaded with explosives is not that hard.
Dalman let me just ask do you use defenders or smartboms on your typical combat setup? For that matter does anyone here take them into serious combat against unknown opponent? 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 12:18:00 -
[7]
Good luck getting 2 smart bombs to kill half the missiles. Not to mention that cost cap and lots of good timing, def drones dont cost cap or require much attention beyong setting them free. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 22:22:00 -
[8]
Isonkon this is an old issue, it has been brough up many times before. It tends to split people pretty much, heavy missile users see is as the end of their supreme rain. Turret users see it as at long last a real way to stop missile spam ownage. If you are the one getting spammed with missiles you know there is not real current way to stop it. If you dishing missile spam out then you happy and dont want to stop. Even be bold enough to try and pretend like they too weak, trying to get them boosted. Everyone is just trying to get changes that will favor their current setup. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.16 01:49:00 -
[9]
The only people that are crying are the peopel that missile spam and dont want to use turrets. I for one use both equally on my bs setups and rely on them during cruiser combat. There is no good antimissile system out there currently so people abuse this game weakness and spam away. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.16 03:42:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Pojo on 16/02/2004 03:48:09
Lets get down to the real facts, caracal is a missile boat and the only other ship that can mount more then 4 launchers is the Raven. So in the entire game these are the only 2 ships that can be said to have a missile advantage as they can in theory mount 5+ launchers. Raven is flexible it can easily do 4/4 setup and be very potent. Caracal can mount a couple of turrets as well so it has some room to work with. The reality is that the only ship really depending on missiles for its life is the kestrel. I think we all know how overpowerd the kestrel is. It needs to be tuned down a bit as it can easily take down any cruiser.
So the caldari have one ship that really depends on missiles. The rest have the option to go missile heavy but are not locked into it. You are implying that Caldari are the missile kings and cant fight worth a damn without them. The fact is that they are far from being as dependant on missiles as some people make them out to be. Getting def drones is not a way to single out caldaris for the nerf bat, as we have learned other races use missiles too.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.16 05:00:00 -
[11]
I completely agree that caldari needs missile bonus and better hybrid bonus, but thats not whats at stake here. We are talking about missiles and their use by all races. Having another antimissile option is not the same thing as having anitcaldari option. Caldari ships are far from the only missile users so its not about them at all. Fixing caldari ship bonuses is another topic all together.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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