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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2004.02.15 05:35:00 -
[1]
Have you seen them... They are drones that shoot down missiles... This new military application of drones is a welcome addition. Really...
And then I woke up... Ahhh wouldn't it be nice.
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2004.02.15 05:37:00 -
[2]
er, bumping this since my other post was blank, sorry.
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Lansfear
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Posted - 2004.02.15 05:47:00 -
[3]
One more way to make missles useless. Very glad I don't use them.
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 05:56:00 -
[4]
So far there has been no effective way to stop missile spam, defenders just flat out dont work, smartbomb work a little but the timing and their high cap usage keep them of most ships. I am glad that there may at long last be a way to defend against missile spam, I use missiles alot myself but I still welcome this change. I can see many caracal, bb and raven pilots screaming their lungs out on how this is just yet another nerf bat to caldari ships but I dont agree. Drones die easily and they should be ablt to shoot down missiles lets just hope they have good AI, not something absurd and stupid like the defenders.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.15 06:33:00 -
[5]
uhm there's defender drones in EVE now?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 06:42:00 -
[6]
There are already 5 ways to counter missiles in this game.
Absolutely NO need for a 6:th way.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Finestaut
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Posted - 2004.02.15 07:16:00 -
[7]
 Quote:
There are already 5 ways to counter missiles in this game.
Absolutely NO need for a 6:th way.
I can only think of 3 offhand:
Defenders: Not exactly perfect, but they shouldn't be, though it would be nice if they were a bit smarter (this goes for regular missiles too).
Smartbombs: Perfect just the way they are.
Speed: Also pretty perfect, you have to be really fast to do it.
What are the other two?
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.15 07:19:00 -
[8]
Quote:
Quote:
There are already 5 ways to counter missiles in this game.
Absolutely NO need for a 6:th way.
I can only think of 3 offhand:
Defenders: Not exactly perfect, but they shouldn't be, though it would be nice if they were a bit smarter (this goes for regular missiles too).
Smartbombs: Perfect just the way they are.
Speed: Also pretty perfect, you have to be really fast to do it.
What are the other two?
warping away (which makes you invulnerable to incoming missiles)
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 07:42:00 -
[9]
Oh, well, it is actually already 6.
Smartbombs, always an avaible option.
Defenders, always an avaible option.
Speed, always an aviable option for smaller ships.
Close-range, avaible option for big ships.
Warp out and back in, "always" an avaible option in fleet combat.
Shoot down missiles, not really an option if you want to do any damage yourself, but absolutely an option if a group of smaller ships attacks a battleships that tries to defend with FoF missiles for example.
Since missiles obviously already are very easy to counter, cost very much, and aren't overpowered compared to turrets, we sure as hell don't need more defence against missiles.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Finestaut
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Posted - 2004.02.15 07:42:00 -
[10]
Quote:
warping away (which makes you invulnerable to incoming missiles)
True, but that's more of an exploit in my mind. If you're warping away to escape, then that's legitimate, but engaging warp to prevent missiles from hitting you while you stay in the battle, I put that in the same category as grid exploiting: Just plain naughty.
Are there any more legitimate ways to dodge missiles?
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:06:00 -
[11]
You forgot few more dalman, as we doing crazy talk now I put my vote for the best one. Dont launch the game period then no missile can even hurt you, of course if you feel like playing the odds a bit you can always hide in station also avoid any missile damage. 
Back to eve world now, smartboms and missile are teh suck. Speed only work in some condition for certain ships its a non issue majority of bs battles. Warping out is same as running away the other guy can do the same thing, again not a real option. Shooting them is not an option either as it takes a long time to target such small thing by then it already hit you or is just about to. Leaving us with no effective way to counter missile, the best current way it to soak them up with your shield tank and thats just wrong. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:19:00 -
[12]
Quote:
Leaving us with no effective way to counter missile, the best current way it to soak them up with your shield tank and thats just wrong.
And how am I supposed to counter your turrets?
The missile defences works good enough.
One slot for either defenders or a smartbomb cancels out more than one slot used for missiles from the player attacking you. 4 smartbombs cancels out the 6 launcherslots on a Raven.
While with sensor dampeners you need 5 slots for boosters to cancel out 3 slots used for dampeners by the attacker.
Sure it seems like missile defence is underpowered
We really need some small drones that completely cancels out the offence of a missile user while you still have all your high-slots available for offence.
Use your brains instead.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:21:00 -
[13]
honestly the DPS from missiles, other than a Raven, is pitiful, most ships can only fire a cruise missile every 15 seconds, which at most against a competent person, does about 200 dmg
factor flight time, chance to be blown up by smartbomb/defender/previous missile fired.
really, it doesnt add up to much damage at all
just because missiles don't 'miss' per se, doesn't make them overpowered.
oh, and don't get me started on the cost to manufacture missiles, please
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:46:00 -
[14]
Dalman why are you ranting on about this? Defenders dont work at all, they aim for the first incoming missile and miss it most of the time and never catch up after that. Having a ton of defenders launched they just fly around stupid instead of going after missiles. They seem to only target prior to launch and if that missile is gone they go stupid. Instead of go after one missile per defender they all go after one missile or so it looks like. Have you even used them in real combat? In all the testing we have done between me and friends defenders can only defend against one or two rogue cruise coming in from very far away. Any ship with 4 launcher will easily overpower 4 launchers with defenders. Leaving the guy with defenders with 4 wasted slots that could have been putting out decent damage instead. If defenders had better ai they could be usefull but as they are now its a waste of slots in combat.
Smartbombs work a little better but range and recycle time prevent them from being used in combat effectively. They require constant babysitting to activate on time, they suck too much cap for larges and have too long recycle time. Running multiple bombs seem to have a negative effect where by they cancel part of each other out. I had 8 large smart bomb setup for testing and they were doing crap damage even staggered. Even with 4 large going staggered some missiles were still getting through, most likely bad programming but still they were getting through.
There is no current good defence against missiles period, there are a bunch of half assed ways. Either the current systems need to be fixed or something new has to come in. Of course you neglect to mention that having anti missile drones you loose the ability to use attack drones. In my book thats a fair trade off, anyone that doubt the power of 8-10 ogres needs to have their head checked. I would have to test the new drones to see how good they are before I would instantly jump to using def drones vs attack ogres. These new drones are not some uber weapon and will be weak and stupid most likely.
I use a typhoon which is 4/4 setup so I use cruise missiles for roughly half my damage output yet you dont see me crying over def drones. If they use def drones they not attacking me with their ogres and I can pick of their little drones without too much trouble. This will be a welcome tool to counter missile spamming tactics, doubt it will work to well looking at the current anti missile systems.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:49:00 -
[15]
pojo the issue is that missile users are having a rough time to begin with at the moment.
is this 'defender drone' thing real or just something cooked up by the person who started this thread?
honestly we don't need defender drones imo
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 08:58:00 -
[16]
Quote:
is this 'defender drone' thing real or just something cooked up by the person who started this thread?
honestly we don't need defender drones imo
No, it's not real, just someone complaining about missiles when missiles in fact are underpowered.
Well, Pojo, does it seem logical tha your defenders would manage to take out all the incoming missiles from a raven? NO.
Smaller number of incoming missiles -> defenders works good
Large number of incoming missiles -> smartbombs works good
Not that hard to figure out.
But since I'm pretty much a missile user myself I'll stop teaching people how to beat me.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:00:00 -
[17]
I am a heavy missile user and I am not having a hard time, I think you mean that some missile carriers meaning the ships are getting a beating now. Who ever could have guessed that a pure missile boat has disadvantages!  Its all about trade offs and currently I dont see any trade off for missiles, worst case they have to use fofs. As for turret they cant do anything at all in worst case. The easy mounting requirements for missiles is also a huge plus for their users. The only current drawback is cost and delay before initial damage. Both are not lethal just require a little better tactics nothing major. Take an apoc with 8 turrets yes thats alot of power but it can easily be taken out with even one dampner. Give that the extreme turret setup, take an extreme raven setup. The raven cant be really hindered that much, as I mention so he has to switch to fof they still hurt alot in volume. Just like all turret setups all missile setups should be easily defeated with right counter. People should be forced to bring an all around good setup or risk being easily killed if they over specialize. Def drones may give that option to defeat missile spam the way a dampner or ecm can defeat turrets. Forcing ravens to use more turrets in their loadouts so they dont get screwed.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:03:00 -
[18]
Dalman I will gladly demonstrate how useless both defenders and smart bombs are in real combat if we ever run into each other on chaos. I can only assume that you havent really tested either in combat to think they work at all. They sound great on paper but in real combat they both fail badly.
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:04:00 -
[19]
Quote:
[TomB] Caldari are underpowered in damage dealing mostly, I have been trying to focus Railguns for Caldari as a primary but it hasn't been going as well as wanted.
[TomB] Plans for Caldari for the future and balancing current Caldari ships will rather focus on missiles
That's straight from TomB, so obviously missiles don't WTFOMFGBBQPWN quite as much as some of you people seem to think they do.
Honestly, unless you're using a Raven (which isn't a very damaging ship IMO overall) and you're trying to use missiles as your primary weapons -- it's a total joke.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:05:00 -
[20]
Quote:
I use a typhoon which is 4/4 setup so I use cruise missiles for roughly half my damage output yet you dont see me crying over def drones. If they use def drones they not attacking me with their ogres and I can pick of their little drones without too much trouble. This will be a welcome tool to counter missile spamming tactics, doubt it will work to well looking at the current anti missile systems.
This point proves you have no idea what you're talking about.
Damage from 8 heavy drones is less than the damage from 2 highslots.
He uses the drones to cancel out 4 of your highslots.
Means he will be doing the damage of 8 highslots on you while you are doing the damage of less than 6 highslot to him.
If you start by picking out his drones, well, you'll die in that case too.
So sorry man, but this idea would make your typhoon completely useless (not to mention ravens).
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:17:00 -
[21]
For all nubs:
damage from a Arbalest heavy launcher on a Raven = damage from a Standard 425mm railgun on a megathron.
damage from a Arbalest heavy launcher on a Raven << damage from a 425mm prototype gauss on a megathron.
Megathron can fit damage mods to increase the damage very much.
Missiles takes a loooong time to reach the target.
Missiles costs a lot to use.
Missiles can be countered.
 Missiles are absolutely NOT overpowered, rather underpowered.
* FoF missiles are fubard, they don't work.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Marabeth
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Posted - 2004.02.15 09:32:00 -
[22]
If they are going to put in a decent defence system against missiles they will have to make missiles more damaging than turrets.
At present missiles have a lower dot than turrets, and that is when all of the missiles actually hit (which is rather rare).
I'm a missile user, and even I'd like to see things like defender drones and decent defence missiles (and point defence turrets as well). However if they bring these in I would want my missiles to be more damaging so that there is balance for me as well as for my opponent.
To be fare a person with no missile defence should die, and a person with excellent missile defence should be practically unable to be hit with missiles. That way we could see specialisation in fleets, with missile defence ships supporting the big gun boats, rather than the ship with the most guns being the best option
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Logan West
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Posted - 2004.02.15 10:08:00 -
[23]
And how my I ask do we shoot down gun's projectiles? Oh, we can't. Leave missiles alone!
"I solemnly swear never to camp a spawn, to twink a mule, to farm a mob. I will not beg for nerfs, or macro for money. I am a gamer, and I swear to have fun."
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 10:45:00 -
[24]
Dalman you in your panic attack over missiles are missing the point. Why do you think that these new drones would cancel out 100% of missiles? Thats absurd anyway you look at it, even if they can get rid of half the missiles coming my way they would be worth it. You also miss the point of my quote which was to show that a balanced setup is the way it should be. Relying completely on missile is stupid just like relying completely on turrets. Cruise and torpedos do plenty of damage considering you cant counter them with much effect. If defenders worked properly then I would not be so eager for new antimissile options.
Each ship should either go all out with one setup and become easy target for other counter specialized ships or they should go for a balanced setup that can deal with anything. All this missile moaning is getting old, currently very few things can beat a torpedo or cruise missile spamming raven so stop with the god damn *****ing about how weak they are. Anyone that expect to shoot down a porjectile traveling at huge speeds is crazy. Hitting a bullet with a bullter is not possible, hitting a relatively slow traveling big missile loaded with explosives is not that hard.
Dalman let me just ask do you use defenders or smartboms on your typical combat setup? For that matter does anyone here take them into serious combat against unknown opponent? 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.15 11:11:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Dalman you in your panic attack over missiles are missing the point. Why do you think that these new drones would cancel out 100% of missiles? Thats absurd anyway you look at it, even if they can get rid of half the missiles coming my way they would be worth it.
2 smartbombs is enough for that.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Judicator
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Posted - 2004.02.15 12:14:00 -
[26]
It seems to me that a lot of people are very focused on the fact that there are no defence against turrets. If you asks me that is not true, the defence against turrets is in the design of them; they miss.
Unless you are actively defending against missiles they will always hit you and deliver their payload. I am aware that they also tend to blow each other up via splash, but hopefully they will prevent that by removing splash. I can understand missile users frustration by having their expensive ammo nullified that way.
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Pojo
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Posted - 2004.02.15 12:18:00 -
[27]
Good luck getting 2 smart bombs to kill half the missiles. Not to mention that cost cap and lots of good timing, def drones dont cost cap or require much attention beyong setting them free. 
"Caldari capacity for good is only exceeded by our capacity for evil"
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.15 13:01:00 -
[28]
u can use does tracking disruptors to "defend" against turrets... im not sure how well they do that but they should make the turret ship miss a lot... a turret ship has not defence weapons against jamming, missile ships has, fof's, but again, im not sure how well the fofs are!!
can u defend urself from a guy shooting a gun at u? not really... can u defend urself if a guy throws a grenade at u? yeah, take the grenade and throw it away!!  
"We brake for nobody"
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Belzavior
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Posted - 2004.02.15 15:32:00 -
[29]
Turrets don't have a counte??!!??
Move out of their optimal. Seems like a pretty good damn counter to me. A cheap and easy one at that.
Only thing that missiles need is perhaps a little boost in damage for Torpedos and Cruise.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.15 15:57:00 -
[30]
Edited by: j0sephine on 15/02/2004 16:00:17
"Turrets don't have a counte??!!??
Move out of their optimal. Seems like a pretty good damn counter to me. A cheap and easy one at that."
Yeah, try to move a Caldari ship out of optimal... oh, of anyone for that matter. :s
(not even mentioning it takes ten seconds to change ammo matching better the new range, or blink of an eye to swap laser cystals)
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