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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.09.20 18:31:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Jimi Tetro
Originally by: Amarria Black
. I'm talking about the permanent and nigh-unbreakable market dominance of someone who has a T2 BPO in their hangar.
A producer with a single t2 bpo has nil market dominance, the volume they can build is insignificant in the bigger picture.
i.e. a previously very lucrative bpo was the cap recharger II, now a single bpo can produce ~25-35 units in a day depending on skills/research and is totally insignificant to the total sales of that unit per day across the universe.
Yet said person producing from a BPO can accept a lower profit margin and undercut base cost for an inventor and still turn a profit. This is the underlying problem: an inventor can never compete with a T2 BPO holder who is willing to cut price to near base cost.
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War Fairy
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Posted - 2007.09.20 18:42:00 -
[32]
Edited by: War Fairy on 20/09/2007 18:42:20
Originally by: Amarria Black
Yet said person producing from a BPO can accept a lower profit margin and undercut base cost for an inventor and still turn a profit. This is the underlying problem: an inventor can never compete with a T2 BPO holder who is willing to cut price to near base cost.
The world is not fair. If you have more ships or isk than me I can't compete so you should give me some. We should all be equal and have all the same stuff!
Jokes aside. This is the nature of MMO. There are always things that are grandfathered. This is something MMO players either need to deal with or they need to quit.
Yes you will never have the same build cost as a BPO but if invention couldn't compete then prices wouldn't have gone down.
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Jack Icegaard
The Omega Project
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Posted - 2007.09.20 18:55:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Amarria Black
Yet said person producing from a BPO can accept a lower profit margin and undercut base cost for an inventor and still turn a profit. This is the underlying problem: an inventor can never compete with a T2 BPO holder who is willing to cut price to near base cost.
Demand increases with lower prices which means that even a cartel including all T2 BPO holders would not be able to keep prices below what is profitable for invention. When there were no invention, BPO holders adjusted prices to a very high level and thereby kept demand in level with the rate they could produce. T2 BPOs have a low production rate. They cant put invetors out of business. I invent 12 different modules, all wich i sell with nice profit, value of datacores included.
I think its pretty safe to assume that T3 production will not be limited to those that currently holds a T2 BPO. But to supply t2 BPOs through a invention lottery grind is a bad idea.
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Jimi Tetro
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Posted - 2007.09.20 18:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Amarria BlackYet said person producing from a BPO can accept a lower profit margin and undercut base cost for an inventor and still turn a profit. This is the underlying problem: an inventor can never compete with a T2 BPO holder who is willing to cut price to near base cost.[/quote
On and 1on1 basis that is true, however the prices of t2 mods are now set by the inventors as the demand far outweighs what the bpo's can produce. yes a bpo owner makes more profit per item that an inventor but that doesnt mean market dominance.
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Gort
Storm Guard Elite
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:01:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Amarria Black
Discuss.
A bad idea. This is just the return of the BPO lottery in a barely different form, and would negate the whole point of invention.
A (very) small chance of a 50- or 100-run BPC would be sufficient jackpot tbh.
Even better would be the (very, very) small chance to invent something unique, something like (but maybe not quite as powerful as) an officer item. How cool would it be to have something named after you? And once you've invented it, you're the only one who can do a unique version of that item, with a merely very small chance of getting more runs of that item in future. That would be a much more interesting jackpot than just getting a money-fountain IMO.
This sounds good.
G
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When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
Evenfall Phoenix
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:11:00 -
[36]
I like the idea of there being a chance of something unique being invented. In fact there really does need to be something like this. Currently T2 BPO holders are able to still beat out inventing. Not to mention that inventing itself is borked as all hell currently.
But I was thinking this morning that if CCP stealth injected the ability for inventors to create a T2 named item, it might give inventors an edge over T2 BPO holders that inventors do not currently have. There's very few things that are actually profitable when it comes to inventing, everyone is currently stuck doing the same thing. Personally I'd love to start inventing T2 Names ECM modules instead of Nighthawks and HACs.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:21:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 20/09/2007 19:26:18
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Really you think there are still T2 cartels? And what are the sign of the activity of the cartels?
Usually the sign is inflated price, but inflated price would attract inventors in swarm, so what it is?
Not T2 cartels in the original sense of the word. I'm talking about the multiple T2 BPO holders who either got theirs for little to no cost or long ago paid theirs off, and who are willing to make slim profits over time by keeping prices at or below the threshold of profitability when the same object is created via invention. I'm talking about the permanent and nigh-unbreakable market dominance of someone who has a T2 BPO in their hangar.
There is a major flea in your reasoning:
It is possible to do what you suggest only if the demand is lower than the total BPO production. But the items with that kind of demand are the same that had a low price even before invention.
The surce of your pains with the invented items aren't the people that own the T2 BPO but the inventor that think that "self produced" datacores are free and so they can undercut prices till they get a return from the material used but not the datacores.
You could remove the T21 BPO and still get people to undercut you under invention cost simply because for their thinking the minerals they mine are free and the datacores they recieve from the agents are free.
Originally by: Amarria Black
Originally by: Jimi Tetro
Originally by: Amarria Black
. I'm talking about the permanent and nigh-unbreakable market dominance of someone who has a T2 BPO in their hangar.
A producer with a single t2 bpo has nil market dominance, the volume they can build is insignificant in the bigger picture.
i.e. a previously very lucrative bpo was the cap recharger II, now a single bpo can produce ~25-35 units in a day depending on skills/research and is totally insignificant to the total sales of that unit per day across the universe.
Yet said person producing from a BPO can accept a lower profit margin and undercut base cost for an inventor and still turn a profit. This is the underlying problem: an inventor can never compete with a T2 BPO holder who is willing to cut price to near base cost.
Here enter the reseller: he look potential sell prices, the small number of items sold under market price, buy them all and resell at higher price.
Emnd result: the BPO owner get little isk, the reseller is happy and the market price stay high. For any item with a number of marketed items higher than the T2 BPO production there is no chance of the price going lower than invention unless a big number of inventors decide to sell at a price lower than invention cost.
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Nexus Kinnon
Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:24:00 -
[38]
No.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:43:00 -
[39]
To return to the basic topic:
it is probable that at some point CCP will allow the invention or production of T2 BPO, as it was stated in one of the old devblog that it was under study.
The key points, at least for me, are:
1) it sould not be a random system based on luck working on BPC, this kind of system has all the problem of the old lottery (and probably will again start accusations of favoritism);
2) it should require very high research skill in the right fields (at least the 2 main field for each BPO at 5);
3) it should be a totally intentional process starting from a BPO (not a BPC) with the aim of getting a T2 BPO at the end;
4) the chance of success should be know before starting the process. I would even more like a long process with granted results as the end, as it will be a multy billion project most of the time.
My idea is something like getting a T1 BPO of the right tipe to a research agent with both the relevant skills, asking him to start researching the BPO. When the agent reach a specific number of RP (applied only to the BPO, no datacore produced) he will produce a normal or bad ME/PE BPO.
Every day the agent will give a mission for extra RP. Most mission will require feeding him datacores or extra BPC of the same kind for experimentations, with the extra RP based on the RP value of the datacores; i.e. if you are requested to give him ME datacores you get 40 RP for each datacore (yes, less than the RP prices of the datacores). Other items he could require are R.DB of some corporation, the high-tech manufactoring tools and so on (not, I pray CCP, tritanium and take this packet, something serious).
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Benvie
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Posted - 2007.09.22 04:28:00 -
[40]
Anything but an extremely small (like 1 in 50,000) chance to get a BPO would ruin the market. Remember that producing from a BPO is much much cheaper than invention, thus BPO owners can easily lower the price below the rate at which invention is profitable or even break-even. Right now with any popular item the percent created from BPOs is small enough that they aren't able to affect the price much, therefore there is room for invention to be profitable.
If you start introducing a supply of BPOs then the amount produced from those BPOs will steadily lower the price of the item. If there's enough BPOs so that they alone can cover demand, then the price will go below the point which it is profitable for invention at all. Inventing new BPOs ultimately would make invention itself a waste of time. The only reason to do invention from that point on would be in attempts to make more BPOs.
This can be seen in low demand items in which the BPOs cover all the demand. They aren't even worth inventing because BPO owners have already reduced the price below the threshold. The price is low because demand is low.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.09.22 05:16:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 22/09/2007 05:21:16
/signed
but not a bpo,but a chance to make a researchable high run bpc?
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
A blog of truth (not mine)
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.09.22 05:18:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Gort
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Amarria Black
Discuss.
A bad idea. This is just the return of the BPO lottery in a barely different form, and would negate the whole point of invention.
A (very) small chance of a 50- or 100-run BPC would be sufficient jackpot tbh.
Even better would be the (very, very) small chance to invent something unique, something like (but maybe not quite as powerful as) an officer item. How cool would it be to have something named after you? And once you've invented it, you're the only one who can do a unique version of that item, with a merely very small chance of getting more runs of that item in future. That would be a much more interesting jackpot than just getting a money-fountain IMO.
This sounds good.
G
thats t3 and beyond talk
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
A blog of truth (not mine)
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Pax Uranus
Sofa.Kingdom
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Posted - 2007.09.22 05:45:00 -
[43]
Yeah. No.
What'd be even better, and much more fun is if there was a slight percentage chance per failed invention attempt of someone randomly out there eating the brunt of your wacky science attempt. As in, randomly the next person to deliver an invention attempt that fails has it blow up in their face like Jokey Smurf. This would mean that they'd die and lose their clone.
That. Would. Rock.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Naughty People
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.09.22 06:03:00 -
[44]
The problem with ANY system that creates T2 BPOs is that, over time, more and more will be created. Over time, this will cause people who have been doing it longer to dominate the market, while new entrants will find it impossible to compete.
The beauty of invention in its present state is that, while there are fairly high barriers to market entry (as there should be), anyone could get into invention if they can invest the time and money needed to satisfy the basic requirements (R&D skills, data interface, access to BPCs and datacores).
Of course, there's an added benefit accorded to those who put in the extra time and money to make a career out of it (grinding standings to get their own R&D agents, training Industrial skills to produce what they invent, trade skills to sell it, buying and setting up a research POS, etc). But that's the way it should be. Dabblers can dabble, specialists can specialize, but nobody is completely barred.
_
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Eternus8lux8lucis
Minmatar
FW Inc
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Posted - 2007.09.22 11:19:00 -
[45]
No new BPO lotto at all.
Only suggestions are to add my agreement to the ideas of better bpcs in terms of either a) more runs (20,30,40,50,100,etc), b) better stats (positive ME/PEs) or c) higher meta items with limited runs.
The idea of being able to name the meta items and having them be random variables would be an interesting idea. Itd make saturation, even of two identical modules with different names, near impossible and kind of interesting to see whatd happen.
The only way Id ever see BPO invention would be from T1 BPOs themselves. Pay to play. Want a T2 Battleship? Itll cost you at least a T1 BPO with a % chance factor involved. Max skills maybe a 1% chance. Thats a lot of isk to pour down the drain trying to get a T2 BPO for the bigger stuff. And thatd be neverminding other modules inherent to the invention cycle. Then have ME/PE of the original BPO tied to the starting ME/PE of the T2 BPO, such as that a green T1 BPO might end up starting off at -30ME/-20PE but be researchable to get better amounts so itd be an all out uphill climb.
Itd keep the costs so high and the %s so low youd either have to be foolish, desperate or have way to much isk to sink into a BPO. Course people would do it eventually as theyd need another isk sink. But Id rather see some of the other ideas on # of runs, meta values or better stats see the light of day long before BPOs.
Yet I realize that wed all run into the same favoritism aspects even with that system. So wed be in the same place. With randomness people cry foul because they dont hit their numbers while others hit more than they figure they should. With skills you run into the old, established, skilled up players with more isk having dominance. 6 of one, half dozen of the other.
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