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Mrski Okupator
Amarr
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:25:00 -
[1]
This was announced months ago and still nothing. Come on, CCP, make my Apoc useful!
That's right, useful. Not Uber, not Pwnmobile, just useful.
_
Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven.
Morsus Mihi. No White Flag. |
ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:26:00 -
[2]
there was supposed to be an apoc change? i dont think i even remember an announcementbut this owuld be good... PLEASE GIV EIT MORE MISSILE SLOTS LIKE 6 ^_^
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy ([email protected]) |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:26:00 -
[3]
You kidding? An apoc is the best 0.0 miner out there until you can fly a Hulk 
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Opinionated Git
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:30:00 -
[4]
The Apocalypse is a defensive ship, its great at what it does and unique in its role.. It doesn't need changing. Just because it doesn't have a trillion DPS doesn't mean its bad.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:45:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Opinionated Git
The Apocalypse is a defensive ship, its great at what it does and unique in its role.. It doesn't need changing. Just because it doesn't have a trillion DPS doesn't mean its bad.
Damn ur a Opinionated Git
Liang
Yarr? |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:54:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Opinionated Git
The Apocalypse is a defensive ship, its great at what it does and unique in its role.. It doesn't need changing. Just because it doesn't have a trillion DPS doesn't mean its bad.
Damn ur a Opinionated Git
Liang
No, I agree with him. The trend in Amarr ships is the low tier is for gank, the higher tier is for tank. It's of course flipped for battlecruisers, just like all the other races. You've got the same trend going in, say, Caldari where low tier is ewar -> missiles -> rails. Then they have it flipped in BC's for rails -> missiles. Or Gallente with drones -> blasters, then BC's with blasters -> drones.
...I'm not sure what the abaddon's supposed to be other than cap dead though 
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.09.20 20:58:00 -
[7]
The abbaddon is at least a good tanker.. dont see that on an apoc. No tanking bonus at all
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:01:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Opinionated Git
The Apocalypse is a defensive ship, its great at what it does and unique in its role.. It doesn't need changing. Just because it doesn't have a trillion DPS doesn't mean its bad.
Damn ur a Opinionated Git
Liang
No, I agree with him. The trend in Amarr ships is the low tier is for gank, the higher tier is for tank. It's of course flipped for battlecruisers, just like all the other races. You've got the same trend going in, say, Caldari where low tier is ewar -> missiles -> rails. Then they have it flipped in BC's for rails -> missiles. Or Gallente with drones -> blasters, then BC's with blasters -> drones.
...I'm not sure what the abaddon's supposed to be other than cap dead though
Except the Apoc doesn't actually tank any better than any other BS, and worse than any of the Tier3s. Same lowslots, no tanking bonus. So what, then, is it's role?
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Rodran Crag
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:05:00 -
[9]
5% max cap/level
10% drone damage, hp/level
or
5% max cap/level
5% Cruise, Siege ROF/level
or for teh ultimaet sex and to be really unreasonable
5% Cruise, Siege ROF/level
10% drone damage, hp/level
Any of these would make me happy down in the pants area.
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Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:09:00 -
[10]
A friend of mine sent me link to a screenshot, unfortunatly I cant find it now. It depicted the apoc info screen showing bonuses as nos/neut amount and drone hitpoint/damage. May this be what the op is asking for?
PS. The pic may or may not have been fake. I dont know.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Opinionated Git
The Apocalypse is a defensive ship, its great at what it does and unique in its role.. It doesn't need changing. Just because it doesn't have a trillion DPS doesn't mean its bad.
Damn ur a Opinionated Git
Liang
No, I agree with him. The trend in Amarr ships is the low tier is for gank, the higher tier is for tank. It's of course flipped for battlecruisers, just like all the other races. You've got the same trend going in, say, Caldari where low tier is ewar -> missiles -> rails. Then they have it flipped in BC's for rails -> missiles. Or Gallente with drones -> blasters, then BC's with blasters -> drones.
...I'm not sure what the abaddon's supposed to be other than cap dead though
Except the Apoc doesn't actually tank any better than any other BS, and worse than any of the Tier3s. Same lowslots, no tanking bonus. So what, then, is it's role?
Well, with the cap bonus it DOES tank better than any of the other tier 2 or 1 BS. Tier 3 BS seemed to throw it off though, and the Abaddaboo looks like it was made to effectively go either way, if not even both. I have no experience fitting it so I can't say anything about it, I just know that with no laser cap bonus it won't stay running long 
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Jarvin Kell
Kingdom of Kador
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:16:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
A friend of mine sent me link to a screenshot, unfortunatly I cant find it now. It depicted the apoc info screen showing bonuses as nos/neut amount and drone hitpoint/damage. May this be what the op is asking for?
PS. The pic may or may not have been fake. I dont know.
imagine a domi with a neut bonus...that would be nuts
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:22:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Haffrage
Well, with the cap bonus it DOES tank better than any of the other tier 2 or 1 BS. Tier 3 BS seemed to throw it off though, and the Abaddaboo looks like it was made to effectively go either way, if not even both. I have no experience fitting it so I can't say anything about it, I just know that with no laser cap bonus it won't stay running long
Except with injectors on every PvP ship in EVE, you will either have your tank broken by superior DPS and die with charges and cap left over, or you will tank whatever's shooting you 'til you run out of charges or kill it. The cap capacity bonus would only make a difference if both ships were running on recharge setups or out of charges at the same time. In the first situation neither ship will ever die because both are doing terrible DPS, the second situation only happens maybe 5% of the time, and isn't worth wasting a ship bonus on.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:24:00 -
[14]
Did any of you bother looking at his name ... He IS an opinionated git!
Liang
Yarr? |
SkyEstaLimit
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
The abbaddon is at least a good tanker.. dont see that on an apoc. No tanking bonus at all
As other said, a capacitor bonus is pretty much a (active) tank bonus. Also helps the lasers to pew.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:29:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Haffrage
Well, with the cap bonus it DOES tank better than any of the other tier 2 or 1 BS. Tier 3 BS seemed to throw it off though, and the Abaddaboo looks like it was made to effectively go either way, if not even both. I have no experience fitting it so I can't say anything about it, I just know that with no laser cap bonus it won't stay running long
Except with injectors on every PvP ship in EVE, you will either have your tank broken by superior DPS and die with charges and cap left over, or you will tank whatever's shooting you 'til you run out of charges or kill it. The cap capacity bonus would only make a difference if both ships were running on recharge setups or out of charges at the same time. In the first situation neither ship will ever die because both are doing terrible DPS, the second situation only happens maybe 5% of the time, and isn't worth wasting a ship bonus on.
You do understand that cap injectors are just cap rechargers that operate on charges and work in chunks, right? It operates exactly the same way as passive shield tanking vs. active shield tanking, for instance. That 25% increase in cap recharge makes a difference when you're making a setup. It allows you to run more things until you're out of charges. Cap injectors don't magically allow you to permarun anything and everything you can possibly fit until all the charges are gone.
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:36:00 -
[17]
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
Thats pretty much what i think might be a usefull (gang) apoc
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SpaceTrucker 3000
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
A friend of mine sent me link to a screenshot, unfortunatly I cant find it now. It depicted the apoc info screen showing bonuses as nos/neut amount and drone hitpoint/damage. May this be what the op is asking for?
PS. The pic may or may not have been fake. I dont know.
It was a fake, next to this apoc was a picture of the new vagabond which had one less turret and less speed I think.
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Siakel
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: Siakel
Originally by: Haffrage
Well, with the cap bonus it DOES tank better than any of the other tier 2 or 1 BS. Tier 3 BS seemed to throw it off though, and the Abaddaboo looks like it was made to effectively go either way, if not even both. I have no experience fitting it so I can't say anything about it, I just know that with no laser cap bonus it won't stay running long
Except with injectors on every PvP ship in EVE, you will either have your tank broken by superior DPS and die with charges and cap left over, or you will tank whatever's shooting you 'til you run out of charges or kill it. The cap capacity bonus would only make a difference if both ships were running on recharge setups or out of charges at the same time. In the first situation neither ship will ever die because both are doing terrible DPS, the second situation only happens maybe 5% of the time, and isn't worth wasting a ship bonus on.
You do understand that cap injectors are just cap rechargers that operate on charges and work in chunks, right? It operates exactly the same way as passive shield tanking vs. active shield tanking, for instance. That 25% increase in cap recharge makes a difference when you're making a setup. It allows you to run more things until you're out of charges. Cap injectors don't magically allow you to permarun anything and everything you can possibly fit until all the charges are gone.
The problem is, that cap bonus comes out to a difference of 6.5 cap/sec. With Injectors, every BS will be getting 70 cap/sec. So this 'bonus' is giving less than 10% more cap/sec to use, but it isn't going to be used anyway. Because either the ship is going to die with cap charges left, or it's going to run out of charges and die with no cap left. Realistically, there is no middle ground, as I said earlier.
That aside, the 25% recharge increase from it is not the useful part of that bonus. The useful part of that bonus is the 25% larger capacitor buffer, and even then, that's only useful when sniping. The cap capacity bonus is a PvE bonus, not a PvP bonus. It's useless in close range PvP, and only slightly useful in long range PvP with the insane cap use of Tachs.
To the person who posted the Neut setup: Yes, that's the one use the Apoc currently has. It can be fitted to be a sustainable neut-ship. In everything else, it's outclassed by either the Armageddon (Almost everything) or the Abaddon (everything else).
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:53:00 -
[20]
What happened to the Apoc overhaul? CCP got drunk and forgot about it...
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madaluap
Gallente
Mercenary Forces
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.09.20 21:59:00 -
[21]
Edited by: madaluap on 20/09/2007 21:59:23
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
Thats pretty much what i think might be a usefull (gang) apoc
Dude wtf? Now i understand why amarr is whining about ca****ues (j/k)
Just fuel your neut with nos. It is the way to go. 4 nos + 4 neuts + heavy injector + some capmods is a lot better, you really dont need to boost fulltime with the injector.
And you are actually using your enemies cap for destroying...their cap some more! 
_________________________________________________
Breetime
A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA |
Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.09.20 22:07:00 -
[22]
I don't think CCP ever announced an Apoc overhaul, only lots of players asking for it. And it does need it. The Abaddons resistance bonus is much better for tanking than the Apocs cap bonus, and it is outganked by either Abaddon or Geddon. The only real purpose it might serve is Neutboat, and that is a very questionable use.
I would love a Khanid Apoc, but any change can only be an improvement.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.20 22:30:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Siakel
The problem is, that cap bonus comes out to a difference of 6.5 cap/sec. With Injectors, every BS will be getting 70 cap/sec. So this 'bonus' is giving less than 10% more cap/sec to use, but it isn't going to be used anyway. Because either the ship is going to die with cap charges left, or it's going to run out of charges and die with no cap left. Realistically, there is no middle ground, as I said earlier.
True enough, would've been better off with -5% cycle time on cap injectors or armor reps imo. Then again, the raven's not very useful in standard PVP either, but is amazing in PVE too.
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.20 23:04:00 -
[24]
Originally by: SpaceTrucker 3000
Originally by: Draahk Chimera
A friend of mine sent me link to a screenshot, unfortunatly I cant find it now. It depicted the apoc info screen showing bonuses as nos/neut amount and drone hitpoint/damage. May this be what the op is asking for?
PS. The pic may or may not have been fake. I dont know.
It was a fake, next to this apoc was a picture of the new vagabond which had one less turret and less speed I think.
Right-o, thank you, been banging my head trying to find info in game development on this :)
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Mrski Okupator
Amarr
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.20 23:18:00 -
[25]
I'm quite sure a dev blog mentioned a role change. That's when all the speculations started.
Geddon gets all my love, and Abaddon is a half decent fleet ship. And I use my Apoc for.. well, mining.
At least give it a mining bonus .
Will use my search-fu now to lool for devblog.
_
Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven.
Morsus Mihi. No White Flag. |
Lithalnas
Amarr
Headcrabs
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Posted - 2007.09.20 23:56:00 -
[26]
Apoc needs a smartbomb radius bonus.
-------------
fixed for greater eve content |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.09.20 23:58:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:04:17
Originally by: madaluap
Dude wtf? Now i understand why amarr is whining about ca****ues (j/k)
Just fuel your neut with nos. It is the way to go. 4 nos + 4 neuts + heavy injector + some capmods is a lot better, you really dont need to boost fulltime with the injector.
And you are actually using your enemies cap for destroying...their cap some more!
It will run forever with some spare. Also its fitted to deliver a huge cap alpha strike, most pilots will feel uncomfortable if they loose 6400 cap in a single strike.
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.21 00:19:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:07:41
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:04:17
Originally by: madaluap
Dude wtf? Now i understand why amarr is whining about ca****ues (j/k)
Just fuel your neut with nos. It is the way to go. 4 nos + 4 neuts + heavy injector + some capmods is a lot better, you really dont need to boost fulltime with the injector.
And you are actually using your enemies cap for destroying...their cap some more!
It will run forever with some spare. Also its fitted to deliver a huge cap alpha strike, most pilots will feel uncomfortable if they loose 4800 cap in a single strike.
edit: should learn to make right math..
By the way, IIRC it would only take 6 of those to alpha a nyx with max cap skills cap below 70%. It would take significantly more to keep it there (especially if it has a lot of cap mods) but I bet that'd scare the crap out of the pilot
T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari
Helmsman Engineering Company
|
Posted - 2007.09.21 00:29:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:32:00
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:07:41
Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 21/09/2007 00:04:17
Originally by: madaluap
Dude wtf? Now i understand why amarr is whining about ca****ues (j/k)
Just fuel your neut with nos. It is the way to go. 4 nos + 4 neuts + heavy injector + some capmods is a lot better, you really dont need to boost fulltime with the injector.
And you are actually using your enemies cap for destroying...their cap some more!
It will run forever with some spare. Also its fitted to deliver a huge cap alpha strike, most pilots will feel uncomfortable if they loose 4800 cap in a single strike.
edit: should learn to make right math..
By the way, IIRC it would only take 6 of those to alpha a nyx with max cap skills cap below 70%. It would take significantly more to keep it there (especially if it has a lot of cap mods) but I bet that'd scare the crap out of the pilot
As far as i know, a Nyx does have around 85k cap with a recharge of 300-400 cap/s if fitted properly. 4800cap divided by 24 seconds should deliver a cap reduction of 200 cap/s. 6 of these neutapocs will destroy 1200 cap/s, i dont think that any ship can recharge that alone.
edit: might be 500-600 cap/s recharge, will still die fast
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Rodran Crag
Amarr
Merch Industrial
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Posted - 2007.09.21 00:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
I don't think CCP ever announced an Apoc overhaul, only lots of players asking for it. And it does need it. The Abaddons resistance bonus is much better for tanking than the Apocs cap bonus, and it is outganked by either Abaddon or Geddon. The only real purpose it might serve is Neutboat, and that is a very questionable use.
I would love a Khanid Apoc, but any change can only be an improvement.
CCP singled out the Apoc as needing an overhaul in a dev blog, along with saying the cruisers were lacking.
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