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KIAEddZ
   |
Posted - 2004.02.16 10:41:00 -
[1]
Too much Scorp Apoc Tempest loving on this forum :) and even the lowly pile o crap that is the typhoon gets more loving than Ravens. (my raven would tear a typhoon in 2)
So give it some loving.
(i wish to ddiscuss the Ravens abilities as a combat BS, both fleet and small engagement 1v1 2v2 3v3, and this is an opaque post attempting to stir up some reaction :) )
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.16 10:42:00 -
[2]
My Typhoon would eat your Raven for breakfast.*
With chips on the side.
*As long as you used rockets only.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2004.02.16 11:26:00 -
[3]
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 16/02/2004 11:28:07
Ooooh :) a challenge.
I would send you home like a ickle boy that wore no pants to gym class ;)
You wouldnt know what hit ya ;)
Now back to the subject. Is the raven any good?
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
zincol
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Posted - 2004.02.16 12:53:00 -
[4]
Edited by: zincol on 16/02/2004 12:54:41
whats wrong wid 6 seige and rest all tanking?
Raven seems fine u just dont get enuff cpu to use turret's.
The poor scorps dont have such firepower and the new nerfy thing dont look too good for scorp.
w00t!
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Darsk'hul
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Posted - 2004.02.16 13:08:00 -
[5]
Yek ! Caldari ship ...
ALL your BS are crap ! My looooooovely Dominix is the best (okay, actually, i've failed to get a megathron, which was my first choise, but ... hum ... ) 
__________
No more CEO of Placid Partners Inc.
Contact for this corp is now Yilo.
Freelancer at Lost Order |
Robskiwarrior
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Posted - 2004.02.16 13:28:00 -
[6]
my bantam would tear you all apart.. 
...
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Cleopatera
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Posted - 2004.02.16 13:39:00 -
[7]
i love my raven. i generally go for a tank setup it keeps me unscratched against most in a 1 on 1. the only thing i can think of that have gotten past my sheilds are a tempest rigged for serious dmg with 1400's and a megathron with blasters at close range.
one thing with the raven in fleet is it looses alot of its potential at range which is anoying. you can fit 4 425's but it will hurt your PG and cpu.
imo the raven is prety damn good all roud, it can easily be rigged for some ewar, (6 med slots, same as a BB but ok you'd choose a scorp over a raven for ewar any day)its got excellent dmg potential with torps but generally the mid slots will keep the raven as one of the best ships around..
oh and it looks much better than any other bs (except maby the megathron i s'pose)
-------------------------------------------
Voted "Best" |
Artegg
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Posted - 2004.02.16 15:00:00 -
[8]
 Quote:
Too much Scorp Apoc Tempest loving on this forum :) and even the lowly pile o crap that is the typhoon gets more loving than Ravens. (my raven would tear a typhoon in 2)
So give it some loving.
(i wish to ddiscuss the Ravens abilities as a combat BS, both fleet and small engagement 1v1 2v2 3v3, and this is an opaque post attempting to stir up some reaction :) )
Raven = sucks
sucks = no loving
Soon you will learn Eddz
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Systemlord
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Posted - 2004.02.16 15:11:00 -
[9]
If we could use torpedoes in fleet battles it would be a better ship, but the insane splash radius prevents the use of torpedoes as you destroy onther missiles intended for your target.
Need more CPU, it's stupid to only properly use 6 of 8 slots, and fitting 6 sieges without "wasting" a low slot for extra cpu isn't easy ..
Fix the missiles and we are getting somewhere.
Fix the cost and manufacture time on cruise missiles and we are getting even closer to other races.
Fix the slow speed
Fix the slow lock on time
(unless the Caldari is supposed to be slow, low tech and dumb, but then you need to fix the high tech storyline for them)
Basically, please fix the Raven so it's pilots are on equal terms with the other lvl2 BS pilots...
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.02.16 16:10:00 -
[10]
I'm sure glad someone brought this up cough 
Yes the raven ship bonus sux. TomB has, by the looks of his latest post, given up on making any rails balanced for raven use, and seems to indicate it may get more launcher slots, with missile bonuses to boot. (Gonna need more variations of launchers to pull that off btw)
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 16:14:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 16/02/2004 16:19:54
the problem lies in missiles, fix missiles and the raven is an awesome ship.
if raven had missile rof + dmg bonus and cruise missiles moved at 3200m/s instead of 1600m/s the raven would be great.
as far as ravens speed/mass/scanning resolution/signature radius is concerned
i think the raven comes dead last in too many categories.. it's the most massive tier2 battleship, tied for the slowest, lowest scanning resolution, and highest signature radius.. caldari ships certainly need a 'weakness' but does it need to be dead last in all of these categories?
caldari ships have a long targetting range but no weapons to capitalize on it as missiles suck as long range weapons..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.16 17:16:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Baun on 16/02/2004 17:16:59
Problems with the Raven
1) Slowest Rof of any Battleship (Base ROF of 20seconds on a siege launcher with the ability to only feasibly reduce it to 12 (unless you are completely nuts and trained 1.5mil skill points for BS lvl5, slower than a 1400mm on a tempest)
2) Worst Damage per second. Missles take a lot of time to reach their target. Missles can be taken out by defenders, smart bombs, intervening drones, other missles and warping away (even if they dont actually enter warp).
3) Not enough CPU. Siege Missle Launchers take almost twice the CPU of a 1400mm Artillery Piece. Furthermore, Caldari are supposed to be the shield kings yet it is impossible to fit an XL booster and fit a sufficient number of Siege Missle launchers as to maintain the already poor DPS.
4) The Hybrid Bonus is worthless. I don't believe it even works and the Raven cannot fit 2 425mm Rail Guns and 6 siege launchers (or indeed 4 siege launchers and 2 h-50s, while maintaining decent shielding).
5) It is a slow POS. It turns slowly, it moves slowly and it is easy to target. This is inconsistent given the Caldari Description
Ways to fix the Raven
in order of importance
1) Fix the bug wherein engaging warp makes all one invulnerable to missles.
2) Make missles cheaper (especially cruise missles). Is it really fare that they do less damage, hit less frequently, cost more to produce and take longer to produce?
3) Change the Raven (and Caracal) Hybrid bonus to a Missle Bonus 5% dmg/lvl to ALL missle types.
4) Make missles faster. This will increase the Damage/second of a Raven without neccesitating faster launch times.
5) Add a new module that would allow one to increase missle damage. If you think about it, other BSs (and all other non-missle ships for that matter) have both a ship damage bonus and the availability of damage and rof increasing modules and yet the Raven has neither. To furthere complicate this, the Raven is the only BS whose primary weapons can be countered no less than 5-6 ways.
6) Give the Raven more CPU (50 more would be a good start)
7) Make it slightly more agile and 10m/s faster
Ways to improve caldari ships in general
1) Make their shields more unique. Introduce shield permeability and set that to 10% for all races other than Caldari, and 0% for Caldari.
2) ... more to come
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.02.16 17:48:00 -
[13]
Now come on. I agree Raven needs a better ship bonus and missiles need work, but all of the above enacted would equal raven>all.
Yes lets have ravens with 3500ms missiles, doing 450dmg with improved dmg, running 8 siege launchers with increased cpu, 5 hardeners and a x-large shieldbooster, with lows full of cap relays or diags. Come on.
Don't get carried away. Yes it needs help.
Not THAT much help
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 17:51:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 16/02/2004 17:53:14
i'd reduce the signature radius on the raven to 500m, increase it's speed to 120m/s and lower it's mass a little bit..
that combined with fixing missiles and perhaps another bonus for missiles like DMG or something would make the Raven pretty sweet.
i'd take the scorpion shield bonus for the raven over the hybrid one too though..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kurtz
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Posted - 2004.02.16 19:48:00 -
[15]
ItÆs not just the Raven here that needs the improvements.
Two ships had specific nerfing applied to them; the Blackbird and the Scorpion, the Raven just received a general nerfing from the overall changes in the targeting. Its problems predate Castor, and to think it even had one less low slot months back, nobody flew that ship back then.
The agility and speed corrections to the Blackbird really reduced the desire to use that ship. It handles more like a level 3 industrial now than the ôdelicate tactical situationö itÆs description says. I admit the pre-castor specifications were bugged, but this correction is too hard here. Give this ship back speed and agility.
The Scorpion also suffered speed and agility nerfing, as well as penalties in scan radius for targeting.
The Raven received the penalties in targeting and still has CPU and power issues that are not as large an issue on the other three level 2 battleships. Thankfully the Raven was spared the speed and agility nerfs. I suppose if you made that brick any slower they would have to declassify it as a battleship and call it a tower.
I think that speed and agility should be returned to the Scorpion and Blackbird, to fit their roles as electronic warfare platforms. They should also be able to lock targets faster than any other ship, however because of their electronic presence they should have even a larger scan radius to make target locking them faster. Perhaps this could be applied via a ship bonus of speed and scan resolution per level.
The Raven makes no such claims of being an EW platform, and therefore does not qualify for the benefit. The Raven however, should be able to fit 6 siege launchers and supporting system modules. So adding some CPU may solve this.
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Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.16 20:32:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Baun on 16/02/2004 20:35:42
Quote:
Now come on. I agree Raven needs a better ship bonus and missiles need work, but all of the above enacted would equal raven>all.
Yes lets have ravens with 3500ms missiles, doing 450dmg with improved dmg, running 8 siege launchers with increased cpu, 5 hardeners and a x-large shieldbooster, with lows full of cap relays or diags. Come on.
Don't get carried away. Yes it needs help.
Not THAT much help
Just think about it. Which other tier2 Battleship gives no DMG bonus to its primary weapon AND has no module that can increase the damage and ROF of its primary weapon?
Thats right, they all have damage bonuses (although im not too familiar with the apoc so who knows), and they all have optional modules that can increase damage and rof. Furthermore, the Raven's primary weapon hits about as often (likely less with a skilled pilot tempest pilot) than a Tempest's 1400mm and has a slower ROF, and when it does hit it does less damage.
I do not think the Raven should be given more Launcher slots unless Missles are not improved, and I do not think they should be able to continuosly run the medslots you specified. I do, however, think that either it needs more CPU or the cpu requirement of Siege Launchers need to be toned down, such that it can at least fit similiar defensive capabilities to ships which can do more damage and have a higher cap recharge rate.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.02.16 21:16:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Thats right, they all have damage bonuses (although im not too familiar with the apoc so who knows.
Apoc gives bonus to capacitor and energy usage.
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Reiisha
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Posted - 2004.02.16 22:24:00 -
[18]
i see you never gone head to head with a raven before.... it's nigh unklillable and it kills any other bs with cap and shield to spare, let alone in fleet battles.
Gamersland.nl, DE site voor PC gaming! |
ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.02.16 23:18:00 -
[19]
Ravens are not unkillable by any means. It does need a bit of help with it's ship bonus, and missiles need some help, but that's about it.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
|
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 23:33:00 -
[20]
Quote:
i see you never gone head to head with a raven before.... it's nigh unklillable and it kills any other bs with cap and shield to spare, let alone in fleet battles.
out of curiousity, what makes the raven unkillable? it's basically a tempest with worse bonuses and worse in just about every regard.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kashre
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Posted - 2004.02.17 00:42:00 -
[21]
Quote:
Quote:
i see you never gone head to head with a raven before.... it's nigh unklillable and it kills any other bs with cap and shield to spare, let alone in fleet battles.
out of curiousity, what makes the raven unkillable? it's basically a tempest with worse bonuses and worse in just about every regard.
From my experiences on chaos (never fought one on TQ) it makes a good tank, so 1 on 1 witha tempest or a typhoon I can never get through their shields. That doesnt make it unkillable, but I sure cant do it at my current skill levels.
The sixth mid slot (which I notice no one has mentioned as an bonus which might offset its crappy other stats)makes it a better EW platform than any other level 2 battleship as well.
Personally, I think its a damn good ship... the only real problem with it is that missiles are still screwed (which I want fixed as well since I fly a typhoon most of the time).
Fix the missiles, and the raven is easily going to be a match for any other level 2 battleship, imo.
+++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 01:42:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 01:43:09
honestly the more low slots you have the better of a shield tank you are, an apocolypse can out shield tank a raven any day.
raven should get its hybrid bonus swapped for a shield bonus, and they should fix missiles.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Cuisinart
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Posted - 2004.02.17 01:48:00 -
[23]
Quote:
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 01:43:09
honestly the more low slots you have the better of a shield tank you are, an apocolypse can out shield tank a raven any day.]
huh?
Vision without action is a daydream
Action without vision is a nightmare |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2004.02.17 01:49:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 01:51:40
apoc = cap bonus
apoc = 7 low slots / cap relay
apoc + XL booster + EM/Thermal Ward + Shield Amp = way better shield tank than a raven
CAP = SHIELDS = TANK.
(oops, apoc has 7 low right?)
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.17 03:33:00 -
[25]
Then only reason people think the Raven is a good shield tank is that its primary weapons do not use very much Cap. This means that one can easily run a large shield booster and 4 hardeners virtually forever. The Raven, however, could not itself do enough damage to break through such a setup, while other BSs if properly equipped can (although it is difficult). The issue is that the same is true for ANY other level 2 BS, as all it is about is cap power relays and cap recharge rate, and as the Raven has the lowest number of low slots of a t2 BS it has the worst shield tanking ability (the best shield tank is probably an Apoc using 1400mm).
I.E Jim is right.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2004.02.17 11:50:00 -
[26]
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 17/02/2004 11:52:38
Now we are getting somwhere.
I ahve religously used the raven for a good few months now, but in battle, she just lacks the opportunities for strength that the other Lvl2 BS do.
Apoc. 8 Turrets! 7 low slots. Massive Damage from a Tach/Pulse setup.
Megatron. MWD and 7 Close Range Hybrids and 10 Drones. Simply ridiculous amount of damage/sec
Tempest. 1 less Med slot than a Raven, but in every other way its miles ahead. And bloody hell does she hit hard, and of course a cpaless weapon setup.
Raven. Missiles, NO damage bonus available, cant fit 6 Siege Launchers and 2 decent Large weps. 5 low slots :( Torps and Cruise hit hard, no doubts, but its so easy to counter them, 2 medium launchers on a cruiser with defenders is enough! Surely there is something wrong there! Not to inclue of course the time it takes for the missiles to get to a target, and the huge ROF of the Siege Launchers (i have mine down to 12 secs, but thats my limit realistically)
It needs tweaking. If it isnt tweaked, it will remain the most unpopular Lvl 2 BS by far, which is a great shame to say the least. It doesnt need much, just nbeeds bringing up to scale.
Give it 2 more Launcher bays, so it can carry 8. Give it a little more cpu (75). Give it a ROF and Missile Velocity Bonus as its Natural. That would enable it to compete with the Megathrons/Apocs/Tempests that currently smack us about like biatches ;)
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2004.02.17 12:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 12:11:37
BOTTOM LINE
MISSILES ARE INFERIOR PRIMARY WEAPONS ON BATTLESHIPS
-insanely costly to manufacture (50 to 100 times more than large ammo)
-very slow -- thus, poor DoT -- especially at long range
(so what good is the 'advantage' of having the very long targetting range of Caldari ships if missiles suck at long range???)
-the blast radius makes it impossible to fight in empire if you are involved in a corporation war (CONCORD GANK)
-the blast radius takes out incoming missiles (your own and allies), thus makes it impossible to missile ships to focus fire on targets
They just total garbage in battleship combat if you rely on them as your primary weapons.
TomB has seemingly acknowledged this and we can just only hope that he has the wisdom to make Caldari ships viable again and gets missiles up to par with turrets.
If more missile skills are needed for missiles to get that balance, by all means, i'll be the first in line to purchase and train those skills.
I like my Raven, I just wish CCP would fix it already.
9 months and still waiting....
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2004.02.17 14:12:00 -
[28]
Personally, i couldnt give a rats ass about the cost of missiles, if you can afford a Raven and decent bolt ons, whats a few million isk for a months supply of missile ammo.
But your other points Jim, are what is important.
I do lubb my raven, and am stupidly deggedly loyal, hope they fix her soon.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
fras
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Posted - 2004.02.17 15:49:00 -
[29]
Raven might need a bonus but any major changes made to missiles to balance the Raven would royally screw frigates, cruisers and other battleship balance.
Not everyone sits in battleships doing 20v20 fleet battles at 60k.
There's plenty of ships with few/no missile bays as well as plenty other ships (mostly minmatar) with a strong fielding.
Someone mentioned fixing missiles to help their Typhoon, you must be having a laugh? Like it's broken or something...
Would it be fair to have a tier 1 BS with 4x1400's and 4 missile bays full of cruise flying at u at 3200m/s with no splash damage and another tier 1 BS with 5x425 rails (if you've got good fitting skills) plinking off your sheilds?
Am I whining - yes
Do I think that's balanced - no!
Try and think about the big picture! 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.17 16:33:00 -
[30]
Edited by: j0sephine on 17/02/2004 16:36:59
"Personally, i couldnt give a rats ass about the cost of missiles, if you can afford a Raven and decent bolt ons, whats a few million isk for a months supply of missile ammo."
... A month? Just two salvos of cruises* from set of siege launchers equal about half million isk ^^;
*) i.e. less than 5 minutes of fire...
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KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2004.02.17 16:37:00 -
[31]
Edited by: KIAEddZ on 17/02/2004 16:38:47
Jo. 6 siege carry 10 Cruise missiles each. 120 missiles cost 500,000 isk?
Err? Not sure thats right
Fras. Missiles shouldnt be made to do 3200 m/s etc etc, the point is, and had you read the post you might of gleaned it, is that the Raven should have Bonus modifoers directed at Missiles specifically, this then wouldnt effect any other ships uses of missiles.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.17 16:45:00 -
[32]
"Jo. 6 siege carry 10 Cruise missiles each. 120 missiles cost 500,000 isk?
Err? Not sure thats right"
I haven't looked the latest prices, but ~week ago depending on type they costed between 4-6 k per missile so yeah, that's about 500 k on average. Now sure, the price is probably lower if you build the missiles yourself plus the price of rare minerals went down... but that was their recent worth. ^^;
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Dreez
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Posted - 2004.02.17 18:04:00 -
[33]
Raven sucks in large combat because of 2
major issues.
1: Cruiser missiles are still to darn slow.
2: There is still major lagg-issues when a
few ravens starts spitting out a ton or missiles.
Torpedos should be abit more powerfull.
I got cm-4 and that gives me 360 in damage per
missile, witch is alot compared to Torpedos.
Increase the speed of CM`s and lower the speed
of torpedos - inclusing a damage increase.
'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.17 18:45:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 17/02/2004 18:48:16
the ravens bonus is good enough, ccp needs only to make missiles itself better...
increase the speed of heavy missiles to 2250 m/s and cruise speed to 2000 m/s... torps should still be as slow as it is now!!
and cruise missiles should not be able to fitt on a frig, just torps... frigs can get in range very fast and fire torps at 5km-10km range..
"We brake for nobody"
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Dreez
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Posted - 2004.02.17 20:51:00 -
[35]
Quote:
and cruise missiles should not be able to fitt on a frig, just torps... frigs can get in range very fast and fire torps at 5km-10km range..
Since when were frigates able to carry Torpedos
in other then their cargo  `.
And your idÚa of Heavy missiles beeing faster
then cruisers... omfg .
'Trying to argue logically with Evol is like trying to teach a pig to dance. It only makes you look foolish and really annoys the pig ' - Duke Droklar [OC]
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:30:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 17/02/2004 21:31:28
Quote:
Quote:
and cruise missiles should not be able to fitt on a frig, just torps... frigs can get in range very fast and fire torps at 5km-10km range..
Since when were frigates able to carry Torpedos
in other then their cargo `.
And your idÚa of Heavy missiles beeing faster
then cruisers... omfg .
ever played Battlefield 1942? even does small boats got torpedos... most small ships in rl got torps instead of cruise missiles... so why cant eve?
and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
"We brake for nobody"
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:32:00 -
[37]
Quote:
and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:42:00 -
[38]
"same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now"
On the other hand, the smaller missiles should get even larger boost to speed... so they have actually some chance to hit those frigates that are supposedly their targets.
So i would tend to agree cruises don't have to be the fastest missiles. They need of course to be fast so they are actually usable in combat... but not necessarily faster than the light missiles which might be used at short range, but against very fast targets.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:43:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Quote:
and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now
okay... but it would be better if the heavy missile was number one missile against frigates? so a heavy missile need to be fast, and probably much more agil then the cruise missile...
"We brake for nobody"
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:48:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now
okay... but it would be better if the heavy missile was number one missile against frigates? so a heavy missile need to be fast, and probably much more agil then the cruise missile...
smaller missions should be faster, but cruise missiles are generally what i feel are lacking because they're too slow to cover distance in long range engagements (which is how most pvp is fought).
if they could work it so that cruise missiles aren't overly effective vs frigates yet can cover distance quickly and strike other battleships, it would be perfect.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.17 22:02:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Earthan on 17/02/2004 22:03:33
Quote:
Quote:
i see you never gone head to head with a raven before.... it's nigh unklillable and it kills any other bs with cap and shield to spare, let alone in fleet battles.
out of curiousity, what makes the raven unkillable? it's basically a tempest with worse bonuses and worse in just about every regard.
Remember missiles eats no energy when launched+ hit every time automatically( dealing max dmg at every range)+you can chooose wich dmg you want to do ( with a gun you can not choose wich type of dmg yuo do)+ the only weapon you can fire (fof) when you are jammed.These are really big advantages.Frankly i used to kill any other bs in a Raven and stopped flying it for another secret :) reason.
The missiles may be needing some little boost but thats all imho.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
KIAEddZ
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Posted - 2004.02.18 00:38:00 -
[42]
What you have written there is virtually complete bolix, and pretty noob basic stuff tbf.
They dont hit every time, any drone other ship, even your own ship gets in the way, or they get hit by others splash damage, they blow up. Also defender missiles kick their ass.
If your using any form of turret, you can choose the type of damage you do, by changing your ammo/crystal.
If your gonna comment, at least make sure you know what your talking about.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=176347
www.kia-corp.co.uk/killboard
CEO of KIA Corp - Been doing it for the Laydeez since 1993, now we i |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.18 02:20:00 -
[43]
Yes, they are capless. Unfourtunately missle ships have fewer low slots and as such actually have less cap then energy intensive ships (although it is correct to say that an apoc firing a max number of tachs will have some minor difficulty shield tanking).
No, they do not hit all of the time;
1) They kill each other with splash damage
2) Defenders hit them with incredible accuracy
3) Smart bombs easily take them out
4) Drone screens take them out
5) Warping away makes you invulnerable
Missles hit about as often/less often then large projectile turrets (with their incredibly poor tracking), have awful damage over time and do less damage then large turrets in an absolute sense.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 03:52:00 -
[44]
Quote:
Remember missiles eats no energy when launched+ hit every time automatically( dealing max dmg at every range)+you can chooose wich dmg you want to do ( with a gun you can not choose wich type of dmg yuo do)+ the only weapon you can fire (fof) when you are jammed.
You could say the same for projectiles. Projectiles can choose what kind of damage they do and use 0 cap as well. Aside from the Raven, missiles ROF is insanely high, atleast 15 seconds on seige/heavy launchers.
Missiles don't hit every time, missiles can easily be neutralized with defenders and smartbombs. Try a m12 with defenders or a medium smartbomb on autorepeat sometime.
Perhaps Dominix/Scorpion should get 1 more high slot (non launcher/turret) for better missile protect (put a smartbomb there). I think at the very least the Dominix should get a 7th utility high slot.
FOF are quite useless, I suggest you try to use them before you comment on FOF.
Quote:
These are really big advantages.Frankly i used to kill any other bs in a Raven and stopped flying it for another secret :) reason.
In 1v1 combat at about 20-25km a Raven is pretty formidable, though it still delivers damage quite slowly, it can take a hell of a beating. Then again so can the Apocolypse, and it delivers much more DoT.
However in fleet combat (where it MATTERS) the Raven is currently a joke.
There are a lot of flaws in missiles right now, which I've stated previously.
Quote:
The missiles may be needing some little boost but thats all imho.
big boost, more skills for missiles, cheaper, fast, ect.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Kashre
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Posted - 2004.02.18 04:14:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Someone mentioned fixing missiles to help their Typhoon, you must be having a laugh? Like it's broken or something...
Would it be fair to have a tier 1 BS with 4x1400's and 4 missile bays full of cruise flying at u at 3200m/s with no splash damage and another tier 1 BS with 5x425 rails (if you've got good fitting skills) plinking off your sheilds?
That was me.
Getting 4x1400 + 4 launchers + anything useful in the mid slots on a typhoon is pretty impossible without sacrificing a buttload of low slots to Reactor controls and CPU mods, so dont get carried away with the uberness of the typhoon.
And I didnt say I wanted 3200m/s cruise missiles either. Im actually pretty ok with the speed they go now. However... I seriously think they need to nerf the splash damage to nothing, cause like someone said, you CAN NOT focus torpedo fire on a target without loosing a signifigant portion of your missiles to your allies missiles.
Im ok with the damage they put out, which reminds me of projectiles (low DOT, no cap to fire... all is even), but considering they arent that much more effective than large projectiles (IMO) they aughta be a bit cheaper to build.
That's all the boosting I think they need, and if they did that my Typhoon would be a much better fleet ship than it is.
+++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
NajZero
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Posted - 2004.02.18 07:16:00 -
[46]
Edited by: NajZero on 18/02/2004 07:21:50
1. give the Raven +50 CPU
2. Remove the splash damage on all Missle typs (not torpedos)
3. makes CM +100% increasing in speed.
and maybe change the hybrid bonus on raven to at least +3% Missle Damage per lvl, then the raven will be balanced in any cases and it will be competitive with the Tempest and so on.
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Vaarmoth Malinigvious
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Posted - 2004.02.18 07:40:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Vaarmoth Malinigvious on 18/02/2004 07:41:15
Yeah, thats not a bad idea to remove splash damage from all but torps; because really outside of taking out drones, there isnt much use for it.
I think it would be fair to increase cruise missle speed, but decrease the agility; that would make them better for long range, and harder to use against frigites. Heavy missles could then be slightly slower, but much more agile for use against cruisers and frigs.
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NajZero
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:13:00 -
[48]
yes 100% agree.
Then you have to use Heavy Missles against Frigattes and this would be more realistic than hit a frigatte with CM.
I suggest that Cruise Missles and Torpedos are BS based weapons so the CM and Torp will be effective only against BS¦ses and large Cruisers.
For small agile Cruisers you have to use Heavy Missles too.
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Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:21:00 -
[49]
Quote:
What you have written there is virtually complete bolix, and pretty noob basic stuff tbf.
They dont hit every time, any drone other ship, even your own ship gets in the way, or they get hit by others splash damage, they blow up. Also defender missiles kick their ass.
If your using any form of turret, you can choose the type of damage you do, by changing your ammo/crystal.
If your gonna comment, at least make sure you know what your talking about.
Lol I love it when poeple who dont agree with me start to write ys newbie stuff.Im pretty ****ed of it.Hope to mee you in 0.0 and we can check who is more newbie
KIAeddz if you can change hybrid type of dmg i will give you an oscar.You are simply wrong the only thing that change is dmg/range not type.
You type as if you knew everythign and you dont know basics.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:24:00 -
[50]
Guys i agree there are ways of stopiing missiles, but if not stoppped they hit everytime, thats what i meant.
And of course i agree with what you all pointed that smartbombs eat missiles, thats why i stopeed to use Raven.Smartbombs are to goood against missiles.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:27:00 -
[51]
Quote:
FOF are quite useless, I suggest you try to use them before you comment on FOF.
I tried them it was a long time before castor but I chased then 2 scorpion wich were jamming me:)
I think they are ok, when someone jamms you he is not so tough for combat so fof are just fine.
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:29:00 -
[52]
Quote:
Yes, they are capless. Unfourtunately missle ships have fewer low slots and as such actually have less cap then energy intensive ships (although it is correct to say that an apoc firing a max number of tachs will have some minor difficulty shield tanking).
No, they do not hit all of the time;
1) They kill each other with splash damage
2) Defenders hit them with incredible accuracy
3) Smart bombs easily take them out
4) Drone screens take them out
5) Warping away makes you invulnerable
Missles hit about as often/less often then large projectile turrets (with their incredibly poor tracking), have awful damage over time and do less damage then large turrets in an absolute sense.
Only torps now kill other missiles, cruises make no splash dmg
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:30:00 -
[53]
FOF's won't hit someone who is solely sensor dampening you and they only travel 60km.
That's just wrong.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:45:00 -
[54]
hmm maybe.
I used to fight close then, with an mwd..
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
NajZero
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Posted - 2004.02.18 10:55:00 -
[55]
muahaha lol , NOOB
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:04:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Only torps now kill other missiles, cruises make no splash dmg
heh, sorry but you're wrong, do show info on every missile, they all have a blast radius, albiet small, yet it seems to be enough to take each other out quite often
focusing fire on ships (which is ESSENTIAL IN PVP) with missiles, you basically wind up blowing each others missiles up making focus firing with missile ships near impossible.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:14:00 -
[57]
Quote:
muahaha lol , NOOB
Again.
Before MWD nerf a Raven with mwd, going fast close around ships was the ultimate destruction machine.
Large guns couldnt hit you beacuse of your speed/closeness.Missiles wich you fired werent affected by this.
Guys, all you calling everybody newbies please group , we meet in 0.0 and we do some duels....
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Earthan
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:15:00 -
[58]
Quote:
Quote:
Only torps now kill other missiles, cruises make no splash dmg
heh, sorry but you're wrong, do show info on every missile, they all have a blast radius, albiet small, yet it seems to be enough to take each other out quite often
focusing fire on ships (which is ESSENTIAL IN PVP) with missiles, you basically wind up blowing each others missiles up making focus firing with missile ships near impossible.
Hmm really? The cruise splash is so small now i though it is neglectable...
Stars, stars like dust, all around me.... |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:17:00 -
[59]
Quote:
Hmm really? The cruise splash is so small now i though it is neglectable...
it's 250 meters, not much but still enough to take out friendly missiles striking a target unfortunately.
if you launch 4 heavy missiles at nearly the same time you you will see only 1 hits and the first one to strike takes out the 3 launched with it
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Psychopath
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:52:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Psychopath on 18/02/2004 12:00:07
If you guys take your ships into TQ and not do everything by chaos setups you will see how strong a raven is 1v1. An apoc to go 1v1 would need a warp scramble and probably a sensor booster which leaves it 2 MED slots. This is enough for a shield booster and a hardener. This setup would be useless against a raven with a tanked shield.
If you use your chaos apoc setups 1v1 on TQ what is the bs going to do? WARP AWAY
So stop living in fantasy and accept that a raven is a very good pvp ship and is fine as it is.
A Corp 1 pirate I was meant to be, trim the sails and roam the sea |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 12:02:00 -
[61]
Quote:
Edited by: Psychopath on 18/02/2004 12:00:07
If you guys take your ships into TQ and not do everything by chaos setups you will see how strong a raven is 1v1. An apoc to go 1v1 would need a warp scramble and probably a sensor booster which leaves it 2 MED slots. This is enough for a shield booster and a hardener. This setup would be useless against a raven with a tanked shield.
If you use your chaos apoc setups 1v1 on TQ what is the bs going to do? WARP AWAY
So stop living in fantasy and accept that a raven is a very good pvp ship and is fine as it is.
Raven certainly can hold it's own in short to midrange 1v1 engagements, but this is about fleet combat, where missiles fall quite short in effectiveness compared to other weapons.
The Raven, is really an OK ship, it's missiles that are the issue.
That hybrid range bonus needs to be changed to a shield bonus though IMO. Raven really has no use for that bonus at all.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Keenon
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Posted - 2004.02.18 12:22:00 -
[62]
Quote:
Edited by: Psychopath on 18/02/2004 12:00:07
If you guys take your ships into TQ and not do everything by chaos setups you will see how strong a raven is 1v1. An apoc to go 1v1 would need a warp scramble and probably a sensor booster which leaves it 2 MED slots. This is enough for a shield booster and a hardener. This setup would be useless against a raven with a tanked shield.
If you use your chaos apoc setups 1v1 on TQ what is the bs going to do? WARP AWAY
So stop living in fantasy and accept that a raven is a very good pvp ship and is fine as it is.
couldnt agree more
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Help keep carebear population under control!!!! POD U LATER |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.18 13:44:00 -
[63]
Raven is quite effective in medium range 1v1 encounters. Unlike similiarly effective ships, such as the Tempest (and one could argue also both other tier 2 battleships), it is not similiarly useful in almost any other role.
1) Not effective in long range/semi long range 1v1 situations, which caldari were apparently meant for.
2) Not effective in fleet combat, the DOT is just too low and the missles simply take each other out, further reducing an already pitifully low DOT.
3) Completely useless in Empire based wars. Well that is actually an exaggeration, it is very useful for allowing your opponent to take out a Battleship without having to fire a shot (hello Concord).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Psychopath
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Posted - 2004.02.18 14:08:00 -
[64]
I disagree that they are useless in fleet battles. A raven with a bunch of mainly turret bs would be fearsome and provides good firepower and strength on the battlefield. Ravens can also be used with FoF to take out jamming bb and scorps.
A Corp 1 pirate I was meant to be, trim the sails and roam the sea |
Baun
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Posted - 2004.02.18 16:10:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Baun on 18/02/2004 16:11:20
What is better about a Raven in fleet battles than a Tempest? Its missles take 45-60 seconds to hit (in which time they can be shot down, smartbombed, collide with themselves or other missles, or get shot down by defenders), and do not do that much damage.
A tempest can do more damage immediately, more damage over time and has similiar staying power. The ability to use FoF missles, especially at range, is a joke. These missles take even longer to hit their target, if they ever do, and in fleet battles unless everyone is jammed there are always several ships available to quickly destroy those pesky scorps and BBs.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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