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are isk farmers truly bad for EvE

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:35:00 - [31] Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Another thing CCP could do to lessen the amount of farmers in 0.0 would be to disable cloaks on battleships. It's getting old jumping in to systems with farmers that instantly warp and cloak as soon as someone enter local. Translation: Please cause others inconvenience so that my playstyle benefits.
Sarkkon	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:37:00 - [32] Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Another thing CCP could do to lessen the amount of farmers in 0.0 would be to disable cloaks on battleships. It's getting old jumping in to systems with farmers that instantly warp and cloak as soon as someone enter local. I think I saw on a dev blod they are considering an anti-covert ops kinds of ship.. or perhaps a type of ship/probe that can scan out non covert ops. So hopefully we will have a way to counter these farmers in 0.0 soon. [looking forward to that day myself...]
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:38:00 - [33] Originally by: CCP Prism X Been reading our logs much perhaps? If your petition consistency is anything to go by, I've probably read them as much as the GMs have
Sin Meng Gallente Knights Of the Black Sun Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:43:00 - [34] Originally by: Elder Bob Originally by: CCP Prism X Been reading our logs much perhaps? If your petition consistency is anything to go by, I've probably read them as much as the GMs have As much as goons make me a sad panda, that post made me giggle like a little girl, thank you. ------------------------- EVE is a sandbox with land mines, deal with it.
Maestro Ulv Phaze-9	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:44:00 - [35] Originally by: CCP Prism X This topic is so full of fail >.< ISK buyers promote the existence of ISK sellers. ISK buyers are not just as bad as ISK sellers. They're a whole lot worse, they create the problem even though we've offered them a legal way of spending their salary on pretend money. As someone that has actively complained about Isk buyers being ignored whilst we all rant about the farmers since the day I kicked a (still playing) pilot from my corp for doing just that to gain an advantage over others, I no longer feel alone! Dramatic? Maybe, but still a valid feeling. I have ranted against devs in recent months/years over various.. hiccups.. however when people like you post publicaly in this manner and show that it really does bloody bug you to then I applaud you. Now, what ya gonna actualy do about it? :) And yes, I do understand that it is not an easy issue to sort and yes again, the secure GTCs and other ways to lighten your load in areas so you can maybe concentrate on problems is all good so far. I'm not bored, I'm merely in the Queue.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:46:00 - [36] make aling time of non specialized ship with cloack double or at least +1/3 BTW, CCP is going on a one-way battle with isk sellers and buyers, hardly this will come to an end :\ ----------------------------------------------- Forum Warfare - Rank (4) - Level V Forum Warfare Specialist - Rank (9) - Level III Armor Flame Compensation - Rank (5) - Level IV
Dominique Vasilkovsky Techmart Industries	Posted - 2007.09.27 10:49:00 - [37] Originally by: Amarria Black Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Another thing CCP could do to lessen the amount of farmers in 0.0 would be to disable cloaks on battleships. It's getting old jumping in to systems with farmers that instantly warp and cloak as soon as someone enter local. Translation: Please cause others inconvenience so that my playstyle benefits. Well causing you a bit of inconvenience is worth it if all farmers get shafted in the process tbh. Signature approved by Eldo
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:06:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Prism X stuff Thank you _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:39:00 - [39] Originally by: Dominique Vasilkovsky Well causing you a bit of inconvenience is worth it if all farmers get shafted in the process tbh. While something needs done about the production side of the RMT of ISK, it can be done without removing an anti-gank tool from the hands of the playerbase at-large. Also, the last group that needs to be empowered to identify and punish ISK farmers is the general playerbase. That will simply result in a witch hunt wherein mining barge in high sec automatically = FARMER, KILL IT. On a semi-unrelated note: there will always be a demand for sold ISK simply because of the kinds of people that EVE, and MMOs at-large, draw in. You expect a group of people who base their leisure activities around making someone else miserable and getting ahead at any cost to show ethics when it comes to purchasing in-game funds? Laughable.
Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Glauxian Brothers Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae Edited by: Grifanel Maeibae on 27/09/2007 08:02:17 some of you blame isk farmers for ruining eve economy. i partly disagree. and here is why. macro miners generate minerals for the economy. now some of you can say that you can buy minerals off the market anyway by buying mods and reprocessing them. but that only really works for tritanium. now a lot of people say mining has become unprofitable because isk miners take down the price. but then i ask you, if there were no macro miners, where would all these minerals come from. there will be less minerals, and they will be more expensive. then your gonna whine again!!!!! Without macrominers mineral prices would be higher so you (honest player) wouldn't need to drill the veld all day to make some isk by mining. Higher mineral price -> more income is directed to actual miners. I fail to see what would be wrong with that. Sure we want cheap stuff but it's not like a bit more expensive items would ruin economy. ISK farming via plexes/missions is also bad. Faction module etc loot spawn rates would be probably much higher if there was no ISK farmers producing "unnatural" amount of loot into market so actually casual normal player could actually find some good loot theirselves or again, like mining, if you'd find some rare item you would actually get pretty good isk for it. I personally can't wait for new features which make "machine like" mining/isk farming etc. difficult or even impossible.
Imhotep Khem Minmatar Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.27 11:58:00 - [41] Combat pilots may not care how the minerals get to them, but there are more careers in Eve than combat. Illegal macro isk farmers are bad because they make it unfair for others that want mining careers. I also think just like combat pilots, miners should have a log off timer too. No reason why anybody should be able to just exit the game when danger arrives without docking. _________ If your not dyin' your not tryin'.
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:00:00 - [42] Edited by: Cutie Chaser on 27/09/2007 11:59:59 Originally by: CCP Prism X And what is this about implying that we're not caring about ISK sellers at all? Do you have some mysterious insight into what is happening here? Been reading our logs much perhaps? Or just pulling those facts out of the air? Mayhaps you have a better understanding of the nature of this fight than everyone who's been working on it since launch? Maybe because people see groups of obvious farmers, all same creation date, non-sense names, all flying the same ship, grinding missions all day, and they are still there a week later after petitions? Maybe it comes down to the fact that what appears to be an obvious group of farmers are not baned due to a lack of proof. People petition ISK farmers all the time, yet nothing is done. I'd guess this is because their is no solid proof, so CCP is unable to punish them. This leads to a sense that CCP doesn't care, while in reality it shows that CCP cares enough not to recklessly ban people without solid evidence :P *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:04:00 - [43] GTC selling is ISK buying. so no, its just leagized.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:09:00 - [44] POSs are only used because of ISK farmers. No one mines ice fuel.
Granmethedon III High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:14:00 - [45] This smacks of someone trying to justify being so sad they're prepared to pay real money to get ahead in a game. It's a game folks, a great one, that I love, but still a game. I pay my sub, and that's it.
Elder Bob GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.27 12:16:00 - [46] Edited by: Elder Bob on 27/09/2007 12:16:06 Originally by: James Duar POSs are only used because of ISK farmers. No one mines ice fuel. You know your corp originally joined Goons in 0.0 for an ice mining contract, right?
Panthothen principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:37:00 - [47] Originally by: Elder Bob Edited by: Elder Bob on 27/09/2007 12:16:06 Originally by: James Duar POSs are only used because of ISK farmers. No one mines ice fuel. You know your corp originally joined Goons in 0.0 for an ice mining contract, right? Burn... Frostburn... I mine ice :]
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:42:00 - [48] Originally by: CCP Prism X Verbal Pwnage I fully support this message. Also, I enjoy your posting style as well - sometimes people need to be told unequivocally that they're full of it.
Daelin Blackleaf No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:50:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Prism X This topic is so full of fail >.< ISK buyers promote the existence of ISK sellers. ISK sellers try to maximize their income per second and are competing with players for these resources. Suddenly a catch 22 situation arises because the sellers are well versed in the art of capitalising on the resources presented to them, strip mine them fairly quickly and thus leave less for you and me which in turn increases our need for quick ISK which we in turn might end up buying from them, hence further strengthening their position in this monopoly. That's just one reason of so many. I could bring up the 'What hurts CCP hurts EVE' or the basic 'Selling other peoples property is not cool, mkay?' or 'Too much ISK sales proliferation causes people to remain nubties with no understanding for the worth of ISK effectively dumbing the game down' and I could go on and on. And what is this about implying that we're not caring about ISK sellers at all? Do you have some mysterious insight into what is happening here? Been reading our logs much perhaps? Or just pulling those facts out of the air? Mayhaps you have a better understanding of the nature of this fight than everyone who's been working on it since launch? At any rate, you got one thing half right. ISK buyers are not just as bad as ISK sellers. They're a whole lot worse, they create the problem even though we've offered them a legal way of spending their salary on pretend money. I'm sorry, but all the negative points you just made for ISK selling apply equally to GTC for ISK sales. It may be individual players doing the very same farming to fund their game time but the sheer number of them has a similar effect. There are also the intelligent ISK farming groups, they farm their ISK en-masse, buy GTC from players and sell to a GTC retail site. Effectively CCP have legalized and condoned actions highly detrimental to their game simply because a large portion of the money comes to them. I know the situation can't be completely remedied, it's a problem for any MMO, but legalizing it simply promotes the problem and allows it to continue on a much larger scale (WTS 50 90day GTC) allowing people to massively imbalance alliance warfare, the market, and other aspects of the game. Policing it certainly wouldn't put a stop to it, and would certainly put a dent in CCP's wallet, but how far are you willing to allow this to continue. What is more important? Cash now, or the long term health of your game. Because so long as peoples dedication and ability are made irrelevant by those able to purchase ISK and characters this game will never be all it should be.

CCP Prism X	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:59:00 - [50] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'm sorry, but all the negative points you just made for ISK selling apply equally to GTC for ISK sales. I realize you're not going to get what I'm saying here from the sheer fact you posted this, but I'll clarify for the sake of others. You're going to have to re-read the example I posted in my earlier message. Afterwards, think on this: On one hand, we have players generating ISK to sell to other players by stripping them (the ISK through resources) from the economy, hence denying other players access to these resources/ISK as they are limited by design (resource scarcity is what creates supply/demand). On the other hand we have players generating ISK for themselves by working as a distributor for us, allowing others to keep playing the game and not affecting any in-game resources and hence avoiding the catch22 situation I described earlier. So no, in no way do any of the negative points raised apply to GTC sales aswell. Even the 'eternal noob' argument doesn't apply because people actually have to work on unloading the GTC they've put real life investment into, so there's risk involved. Good plan, execution needs a little work. ~ Prism X EvE Lead Database Developer, Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006.

Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 13:59:00 - [51] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'm sorry, but all the negative points you just made for ISK selling apply equally to GTC for ISK sales. It may be individual players doing the very same farming to fund their game time but the sheer number of them has a similar effect. There are also the intelligent ISK farming groups, they farm their ISK en-masse, buy GTC from players and sell to a GTC retail site. Except ISK farmers are capable of generating income at 3 to 10 times as quickly as normal players (since they're online 23/7), so the overall effect they have on the game is much, much greater. Allowing normal players to pay ISK for game time codes for the purpose of resale is no longer allowed anyway, so players are not capable of using ISK to generate real money.
Grifanel Maeibae	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:15:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Prism X Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf I'm sorry, but all the negative points you just made for ISK selling apply equally to GTC for ISK sales. I realize you're not going to get what I'm saying here from the sheer fact you posted this, but I'll clarify for the sake of others. You're going to have to re-read the example I posted in my earlier message. Afterwards, think on this: On one hand, we have players generating ISK to sell to other players by stripping them (the ISK through resources) from the economy, hence denying other players access to these resources/ISK as they are limited by design (resource scarcity is what creates supply/demand). On the other hand we have players generating ISK for themselves by working as a distributor for us, allowing others to keep playing the game and not affecting any in-game resources and hence avoiding the catch22 situation I described earlier. So no, in no way do any of the negative points raised apply to GTC sales aswell. Even the 'eternal noob' argument doesn't apply because people actually have to work on unloading the GTC they've put real life investment into, so there's risk involved. Good plan, execution needs a little work. so if isk sellers mine, the resources are removed from the economy. While when a non isk sellers mine the resources are not? i like your logic. even if they generate resources for themselves they do so by removing those from the game. and eventually they buy something. so 10 isk sellers macro = 10 normal players provided they spend the same amount of time. your logic is flawed. if pointing out error in a dev's logic is a bannable offence, ignore whatever i just said.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:20:00 - [53] Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae even if they generate resources for themselves they do so by removing those from the game. and eventually they buy something. so 10 isk sellers macro = 10 normal players provided they spend the same amount of time. your logic is flawed. if pointing out error in a dev's logic is a bannable offence, ignore whatever i just said. Except macrominers and ISK farmers are on eve 23/7, allowing them to generate ISK at 3 to 10 times the rate of a normal player. Your logic makes sense, but the assumption that ISK farmers and normal players spend approximately equal amounts of time making isk is false.
Sgt Napalm Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:29:00 - [54] Edited by: Sgt Napalm on 27/09/2007 14:29:13 Prism X is like a Sharkbait on boosters.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:29:00 - [55] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 27/09/2007 14:33:37 Quote: I'm sorry, but all the negative points you just made for ISK selling apply equally to GTC for ISK sales. Rubbish. Don't confuse a hypocritical stance with A) A good business decision B) A safe way for people to inject RL money into the game. (think needle exchange programs if you really want) It's a sad fact that it's necessary for CCP to have a system such as GTC because purchasing ISK is AGAINST THE SPIRIT OF THE GAME It's wishful thinking to think people won't use RL money to gain an advantage, and in a game where that's allowed, go for your life. You won't see me playing a game like that, but there are games like that, yes they work, yes they're fun, but it's not my style of game. That's one reason why I play EVE. Realistically it's stupid for CCP to ignore the vast majority of people who would buy ISK. @ the OP. I was keeping quiet but your "high and mighty" attitude is giving me the ***s. If CCP found the excalibur solution to isk sellers and magically removed them all, I couldn't give a stuff if mineral prices skyrocketed 400%, it's the economy generated by the game. Point is CCP said "You must not buy isk from third-party websites". I don't care if isk-purchasing is "promoted" through CCP's methods. I'd much rather the developers of this awesome game get the money than some person who's decided to buy a game and thinks they can make a buck playing it. Reason why I completely despise that is that it turns gaming into something that's not just for fun. I've played EVE for 2 years, I run what I'd call a serious business in-game. If i lost it all tomorrow I couldnt care less because it's part of the game and what makes it fun. RL currency usage to gain assets in a game promotes* negative, aggressive and otherwise undesirable social output by players because the destruction of your assets in-game is essentially, one person wasting another persons money. Point of fact being I buy 200 billion isk, several stations and a sizeable fleet for, say, $1000. Then someone else comes along with $2000 worth of stuff and blows all my stuff up, claiming it for his own. Bang, my only recourse is to pump more money into another players pockets, only to probably have my stuff blown up again by that same player. By paying my fee to CCP, Whether i stomp the other player and gain lots, or lose it all, the entire process is only the cost of my fees. Paying the subscription is not a "right" to manufacture stuff and sell it for RL profit. It's the privelidge to enjoy a fun game and support the costs associated with running the service. As I said. CCP said you shouldn't buy stuff from third parties, regardless of their own policies. So don't. Don't like it? Go play a game which lets you. There's plenty out there. You certainly won't find me playing them. EDIT: And for the record, ISK Farmer != ISK Seller / buyer / user of macros. I farm missions within the mechanics of the game. Isk sellers, buyers and users of programs to automatically control the game earn assets outside of normal game mechanics. 2nd Edit for quote correctness, I mistook the quoted text as being from the op. The rest remains as-is. Improve Market Competition!
The Snowman Gallente Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:41:00 - [56] and the sad truth is we will never know what CCP are doing about ISK farmers since telling us would actually have the opposite effect. All we can do is sit back and feel the same frustration CCP probably do. One day a ground breaking court case will see a gaming company actually sueing a player(s) for buying in game currency! You can sue companies, but they will just re-form again and again, until players stop buying in-game currency in any game in the world the problem will persist forever.
Christari Zuborov Amarr Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:57:00 - [57] Much more ISK is being generated now then ever before. Asteroid belts weren't cleaned out in HiSec when I first started, rarely was the entire belt gone. How does that compare to today? You see where before, not all asteroids were mined meant those resources weren't being converted into ISK, whereas today, we have fewer and fewer mining belts surviving the day. This game would do well to have hisec purged of it's wealth a bit, turn concorde off and let loose the pirates for 90 days.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.27 14:57:00 - [58] isk farmers are good for eve! probably the best thing ever! they are valuable targets 1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo.
Thanos Draicon	Posted - 2007.09.27 15:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Christari Zuborov Much more ISK is being generated now then ever before. Asteroid belts weren't cleaned out in HiSec when I first started, rarely was the entire belt gone. How does that compare to today? You see where before, not all asteroids were mined meant those resources weren't being converted into ISK, whereas today, we have fewer and fewer mining belts surviving the day. True, but you have to look at the relative value of the mined-out belts too. Given how the mineral market has fluctuated, those mined-out belts may today may be the equivalent (in ISK) of partially mined-out belts two years ago.
Snake Jankins Minmatar German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.27 15:37:00 - [60] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 27/09/2007 15:43:16 Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae so if isk sellers mine, the resources are removed from the economy. While when a non isk sellers mine the resources are not? i like your logic. His logic seems right here. Buying gtcs to resell them for cash is impossible now without violating the rules, because all other means of gtc for isk trading except the secure method are forbidden now. If you make isk to buy a gtc, then the gtc is for one of your accounts. So there isn't much incentive to farm more and more isk, than you need to keep your own accounts running. I'd say many people don't farm isk to buy a gtc anyway. When I bought gtcs for isk, I used the isk that I would have used it to fly and lose expensive ships otherwise. So we normal players usually don't take more resources and we don't increase inflation by buying gtcs for isk, because we mainly use the isk that we would have otherwise used ourselves to buy some more toys. ___________ I've never been so serious as I am now. No, really.

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