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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 07:53:00 -
[1]
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Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 07:54:00 -
[2]
mis enter i will rewrite shortly
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.27 07:56:00 -
[3]
LRN2POST.. 
Will edit pending content..
 Originally by: David Hackworth
ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:04:00 -
[4]
ISK buyers are bad for eve
i suck |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:10:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
now a lot of people say mining has become unprofitable because isk miners take down the price. but then i ask you, if there were no macro miners, where would all these minerals come from. there will be less minerals, and they will be more expensive. then your gonna whine again!!!!!
Without macro miners to drive down the isk value of low end ores I'd forget my combat alts and focus primarily on mining.. TBH with the current price of Mex and Trit I'm already forgetting my level 4/5 missons..
Originally by: David Hackworth
ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:11:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
some of you blame isk farmers for ruining eve economy
macro miners generate minerals for the economy.
Macro miners are "good" for the economy (lower prices).
Other ISK farmers in general (ratting Ravens, macro couriers, macro COSMOS arc/hac, scamhaxploits) are bad (rise prices).
A MINOR portion of EVE ISK farmers are macro miners.
Originally by: Sokratesz
ISK buyers are bad for eve
QFT
_
[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Sleepkevert
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sokratesz
ISK buyers are bad for eve
QFT!
The buyers keep the sellers running, the farmers in general are not bad, the people that feed the farmers RL money are. Other then that, the farmers aren't anything else then players with too much money on their hands.
Sign my sig |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:12:00 -
[8]
isnt this PvP at its finest. the isk farmers DEVALUE THE ISK IT SELF by injecting lots of it into the economy creating inflation!!! so you people who vounch for cruel harsh world should look at your self and know that its not the isk farmers its the isk buyers who are circumventing the risk/reward scheme. and this means that GTC trade itself is flawed. CCP outlaws isk selling but allows GTC trades. what hipocricy.
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Helen Tranter
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Sokratesz
ISK buyers are bad for eve
SIGNED
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Saint Luka
The Illuminati.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:20:00 -
[10]
Right, this is the second post i have seen in two days actually trying to defend "isk farmers" which in terms the people whome are a) breaking the EULA and b) using EVE to make a real life profit.
Now it really would not surprise me if the people creating these posts were either a) former/current ISK buyers or b) actually involved in the "isk farmer" circle, which is it?
You can buy isk buy purchasing a GTC and selling it. Not against the EULA, and you're providing a service to the EVE community by doing so.
Are they bad? Personally i only have one greivance, the logoffski/cloak artists that are in the same system 24/7 which in a game which isn't meant to be safe, they are pretty much untouchable.
Do they ruin the econemy? Look how things have gone up within inflation over the past year or so. What do you think?
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:21:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Helen Tranter
Originally by: Sokratesz
ISK buyers are bad for eve
SIGNED
QFTx10
ISK farmers on the other hand are just trying to compete..
But..
If they are selling isk for rl moeny then SHAME ON YOU!
Originally by: David Hackworth
ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
GTC trade itself is flawed. CCP outlaws isk selling but allows GTC trades. what hipocricy.
That's a debatable argument.
Would you be UNABLE to convert ISK to real-world money (and thank <insert fav. deity name here> it's getting harder by the day to do it), there would be little incentive over the "self-sustenance" level to "make" ISK.
In turn, this would merely mean there's less incentive to farm, because it's not (that) profitable, and because GTC sellers would get enough ISK riskfree (ban-stick-wise) for their GTCs... with decreasing numbers of players opting to sell ISK for GTCs due to higher ISK prices demanded (or, better said, better-valued ISK, even if price in ISK remains the same or even decreases for a GTC).
Would you not allow this "escape valve", ISK selling would be extremely profitable (because nobody else would risk it but the ISK farmers), which encourages more farming, and so on and so forth in a vicious circle.
And, well, last but not least, the fact CCP makes money off GTC-to-ISK trades (which is a good thing, actually, contrary to what you may think at first sight... a profitable company is an expanding company is a better company is offering better service and so on and so forth ad nauseaum et ad infinitum)... while ISK-RMT doesn't do that (so less cash for CCP, more load on server, less profit, less dev motivation, slowed-down developement, bad for EVE, blah blah).
In short, ISK RMT bad, GTC-ISK good.
NOT hyporcitical. Just logical.
_
[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:26:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Saint Luka
Right, this is the second post i have seen in two days actually trying to defend "isk farmers" which in terms the people whome are a) breaking the EULA and b) using EVE to make a real life profit.
Now it really would not surprise me if the people creating these posts were either a) former/current ISK buyers or b) actually involved in the "isk farmer" circle, which is it?
You can buy isk buy purchasing a GTC and selling it. Not against the EULA, and you're providing a service to the EVE community by doing so.
Are they bad? Personally i only have one greivance, the logoffski/cloak artists that are in the same system 24/7 which in a game which isn't meant to be safe, they are pretty much untouchable.
Do they ruin the econemy? Look how things have gone up within inflation over the past year or so. What do you think?
so if you sell GTC's its doing a service while selling isks is not.
you define the entire morality of this by what CCP says is or is not ok?
btw i am not an isk buyer or seller.
and inflation is a natural order of thing. why dont you blame low unemployment next? i heard it drives inflation too.
im not defending isk sellers what they do is wrong. what i am saying is that isk buyers are equally bad as sellers and sellers are not as bad as the EvE community makes it to be.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:29:00 -
[14]
ISK RMT sellers are an unavoidable fact of any MMOs with any grind element to them.
ISK RMT buyers are the real problem in EVE.
ISK GTC sellers/buyers are just "meh".
_
[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:31:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
GTC trade itself is flawed. CCP outlaws isk selling but allows GTC trades. what hipocricy.
That's a debatable argument.
Would you be UNABLE to convert ISK to real-world money (and thank <insert fav. deity name here> it's getting harder by the day to do it), there would be little incentive over the "self-sustenance" level to "make" ISK.
In turn, this would merely mean there's less incentive to farm, because it's not (that) profitable, and because GTC sellers would get enough ISK riskfree (ban-stick-wise) for their GTCs... with decreasing numbers of players opting to sell ISK for GTCs due to higher ISK prices demanded (or, better said, better-valued ISK, even if price in ISK remains the same or even decreases for a GTC).
Would you not allow this "escape valve", ISK selling would be extremely profitable (because nobody else would risk it but the ISK farmers), which encourages more farming, and so on and so forth in a vicious circle.
And, well, last but not least, the fact CCP makes money off GTC-to-ISK trades (which is a good thing, actually, contrary to what you may think at first sight... a profitable company is an expanding company is a better company is offering better service and so on and so forth ad nauseaum et ad infinitum)... while ISK-RMT doesn't do that (so less cash for CCP, more load on server, less profit, less dev motivation, slowed-down developement, bad for EVE, blah blah).
In short, ISK RMT bad, GTC-ISK good.
NOT hyporcitical. Just logical.
the thing is...theres a limited demand for GTC equal to number of subscribers. so your argument is only valid IF GTC creates more subscriber. which it sort of does by allowing people to have more alts. but really, the effect of this is largely marginal ( my guesstimate) and so GTC selling is not as godly as you think it is.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:52:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Akita T on 27/09/2007 08:55:49
Say, 5% of the 200k EVE accounts with 30-day GTCs at a rough ballpark price of 200 mil per, that's say 10k GTCs per month, or 2,000 billion ISK.
CCP makes at least 100k USD monthly in GTC sales this scenario.
Or heck, 30% of projected 300k EVE accounts next year would use GTCs bought with ISK instead of paying real money.
That's roughly 30k 90-day GTCs, or (at an estimated, say, 500 mil per unit price) 15,000 billion ISK per month changing hands tops.
CCP gets 1.2 mil USD monthly from GTC sales in this scenario.
The current EVE "liquid ISK" pool is 80,000 billion.
Either way, you're barely denting the surface even with gross exageration figures.
So, how many farmers do you think EVE has, and how much ISK do they sell ?
I'd say around 2k accounts at a generous half bil per day average "unconfiscated" income (or 1,000 bil daily, tops).
That's 30,000 bil ISK potentially traded via RMT monthly, tops.
Or, in other words, a potentially reduced income of up to 2 mil USD per month (more likely 500k, not everybody would quit playing just because they can't buy GTCs with ISK, a quarter of players maybe, not more), or a 1 mil USD per month tax-free income for the farmers at their "heavy discount" attractive prices.
I'd call 1 mil USD per month a huge incentive to farm, cheat and abuse the game.
Heck, even a half of that would be awesome, that's still 250 USD per month per farmer.
I guess you know "they" aren't getting paid more than, say, 100 USD per month... so that's 150 USD per month for the "sweatshop owner" and their associates per "sweatshop employee".
See the difference(s) ?
_
[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 27/09/2007 08:55:49
Say, 5% of the 200k EVE accounts with 30-day GTCs at a rough ballpark price of 200 mil per, that's say 10k GTCs per month, or 2,000 billion ISK.
CCP makes at least 100k USD monthly in GTC sales this scenario.
Or heck, 30% of projected 300k EVE accounts next year would use GTCs bought with ISK instead of paying real money.
That's roughly 30k 90-day GTCs, or (at an estimated, say, 500 mil per unit price) 15,000 billion ISK per month changing hands tops.
CCP gets 1.2 mil USD monthly from GTC sales in this scenario.
The current EVE "liquid ISK" pool is 80,000 billion.
Either way, you're barely denting the surface even with gross exageration figures.
So, how many farmers do you think EVE has, and how much ISK do they sell ?
I'd say around 2k accounts at a generous half bil per day average "unconfiscated" income (or 1,000 bil daily, tops).
That's 30,000 bil ISK potentially traded via RMT monthly, tops.
Or, in other words, a potentially reduced income of up to 2 mil USD per month (more likely 500k, not everybody would quit playing just because they can't buy GTCs with ISK, a quarter of players maybe, not more), or a 1 mil USD per month tax-free income for the farmers at their "heavy discount" attractive prices.
I'd call 1 mil USD per month a huge incentive to farm, cheat and abuse the game.
Heck, even a half of that would be awesome, that's still 250 USD per month per farmer.
I guess you know "they" aren't getting paid more than, say, 100 USD per month... so that's 150 USD per month for the "sweatshop owner" and their associates per "sweatshop employee".
See the difference(s) ?
how do you know the total money supply of EvE?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:29:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
how do you know the total money supply of EvE?
80,000 billion ISK
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[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:35:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
isnt this PvP at its finest. the isk farmers DEVALUE THE ISK IT SELF by injecting lots of it into the economy creating inflation!!! so you people who vounch for cruel harsh world should look at your self and know that its not the isk farmers its the isk buyers who are circumventing the risk/reward scheme. and this means that GTC trade itself is flawed. CCP outlaws isk selling but allows GTC trades. what hipocricy.
taking isk form a player who could of used that isk and form a farmer who was never going to use it are two very different impacts on the economy.
people making money off of your product is bad. or do you support sales of bootleg DvD's?
on one hand downloading a movie makes it so the company doesn't make any money.
on the other hand bying a bootleg DvD is not making the company any money AND letting someone else who had no hand in the creation of the product to make money.
am I getting through at all? most people seems to cut off logic when I try to explain the difference.
notic I made no comment about isk farmers being good or bad for the economy, just on the topic of, is it ok for people to make money off of someone elses art.
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP
need...more room... |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:38:00 -
[20]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 27/09/2007 09:38:51
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
how do you know the total money supply of EvE?
80,000 billion ISK
Akita T, if there is another forum warrior vote next year, the chances of me voting for you are very very very very high :)
-----------------------------------
I'm working my way through college
target CCP
need...more room... |
Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
isnt this PvP at its finest. the isk farmers DEVALUE THE ISK IT SELF by injecting lots of it into the economy creating inflation!!! so you people who vounch for cruel harsh world should look at your self and know that its not the isk farmers its the isk buyers who are circumventing the risk/reward scheme. and this means that GTC trade itself is flawed. CCP outlaws isk selling but allows GTC trades. what hipocricy.
taking isk form a player who could of used that isk and form a farmer who was never going to use it are two very different impacts on the economy.
people making money off of your product is bad. or do you support sales of bootleg DvD's?
on one hand downloading a movie makes it so the company doesn't make any money.
on the other hand bying a bootleg DvD is not making the company any money AND letting someone else who had no hand in the creation of the product to make money.
am I getting through at all? most people seems to cut off logic when I try to explain the difference.
notic I made no comment about isk farmers being good or bad for the economy, just on the topic of, is it ok for people to make money off of someone elses art.
i had a revelation. CCP knows a lot of people have $$ to spend. so they make these guys spend by allowing trade of GTC so university student can farm isk to play. all the while these isk sellers compete with CCP directly for money -> isk trade. why is CCP so reluctant to act on isk sellers then?
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Sarkkon
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:59:00 -
[22]
OK... I almost see this thread as an attempt to start a flame war. Farmers, Macro's ... For the point of this thread i will use ISK Mafia. (reasons should be Obvious)
Over the yeras i have seen the selling of game resources slowly increase to close to a billion dollar a year (yes I am serious) 3rd party industry that plagues gaming companies. These 'ISK mafia' are not just content to run macro controlled accounts to farm. Those acounts are just the "toe Hold"..
They start using the excessinve amounts of isk to control and manipulate market as much as possible, as their accounts become more skilled they start moving into the most productive regions of games in shift played HOARDS compelte with pirate/PK protectors to clear out other players. Rumors now that they not only farm 0.0 but have started attacking regional residents.
The sites that sell ISK almost always slip keyloggers onto unprotected machines so they can loot/strip accounts later [same with those power leveling services for games like WoW] They will use what ever means they can to strip players of items and high skilled accounts so these can be sold.
The end game is something they complety control..one Korean run game in US actually had best armor weapons not availible in game.. had to but them off Ebay or the websire of the 3rd party company that controlled the game completly.
So.. how can you even ASK of they are good for game? Do you want an EVE.. where farmers have a mission prober wing so they can harass mission runners? Do you want to go to some website that ends in .cn to get your Navy raven, provided you give them enough real world money? (or faction ship of choice)
again, this is worst case senerio. NOt likely in EVE, however.. farmers i have reported over a year ago and organizing they are stronger.. they blob..[Hell.. look at Motsu and the 500 navy raven flyng 3 month olds within 1 jump of system. The farmers just jump at ya Lanse001 thru Lanse058 as well as any random keystroke combo of names] These are ship played accounts .. they run non stop. {National Geographic had an interesting article on these resident labor gaming operations...not going to focus, but do some research}
So...I cant even see how you can say macro mining is good for game.
Side point to CCP... how come we cannot see the NAMES of people in market. I cringe every time i buy an item or that 500k trit i am short to make a new ship and see the name in journal ASDASDFG or some such similar farmer style name [they expect account to get banned so random keystrokes do them just fine]
I am sure other players feel the same way and would rather NOT buy from farmers (or our enemies for that matter) if we can avoid it.
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Tzt
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:06:00 -
[23]
no. people who buy isk are bad for eve.
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CCP Prism X
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:09:00 -
[24]
This topic is so full of fail >.<
ISK buyers promote the existence of ISK sellers. ISK sellers try to maximize their income per second and are competing with players for these resources. Suddenly a catch 22 situation arises because the sellers are well versed in the art of capitalising on the resources presented to them, strip mine them fairly quickly and thus leave less for you and me which in turn increases our need for quick ISK which we in turn might end up buying from them, hence further strengthening their position in this monopoly. That's just one reason of so many. I could bring up the 'What hurts CCP hurts EVE' or the basic 'Selling other peoples property is not cool, mkay?' or 'Too much ISK sales proliferation causes people to remain nubties with no understanding for the worth of ISK effectively dumbing the game down' and I could go on and on.
And what is this about implying that we're not caring about ISK sellers at all? Do you have some mysterious insight into what is happening here? Been reading our logs much perhaps? Or just pulling those facts out of the air? Mayhaps you have a better understanding of the nature of this fight than everyone who's been working on it since launch?
At any rate, you got one thing half right. ISK buyers are not just as bad as ISK sellers. They're a whole lot worse, they create the problem even though we've offered them a legal way of spending their salary on pretend money.
~ Prism X
EvE Lead Database Developer,
Relocating your character to a cozy, giant secure container since 2006. |
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
This topic is so full of fail >.<
ISK buyers promote the existence of ISK sellers. ISK sellers try to maximize their income per second and are competing with players for these resources. Suddenly a catch 22 situation arises because the sellers are well versed in the art of capitalising on the resources presented to them, strip mine them fairly quickly and thus leave less for you and me which in turn increases our need for quick ISK which we in turn might end up buying from them, hence further strengthening their position in this monopoly. That's just one reason of so many. I could bring up the 'What hurts CCP hurts EVE' or the basic 'Selling other peoples property is not cool, mkay?' or 'Too much ISK sales proliferation causes people to remain nubties with no understanding for the worth of ISK effectively dumbing the game down' and I could go on and on.
And what is this about implying that we're not caring about ISK sellers at all? Do you have some mysterious insight into what is happening here? Been reading our logs much perhaps? Or just pulling those facts out of the air? Mayhaps you have a better understanding of the nature of this fight than everyone who's been working on it since launch?
At any rate, you got one thing half right. ISK buyers are not just as bad as ISK sellers. They're a whole lot worse, they create the problem even though we've offered them a legal way of spending their salary on pretend money.
I came to this thread to post similar pwnage. Good to see Prism's done my job for me.
In short: QFT.
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Grifanel Maeibae
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:21:00 -
[26]
is CCP losing this war against the chine.. i mean generic isk farmers.
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Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:23:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Grifanel Maeibae
is CCP losing this war against the chine.. i mean generic isk farmers.
If the rise in low end mineral prices is any indication they are winning with extreme prejudice.. 
Originally by: David Hackworth
ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Sarkkon
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:26:00 -
[28]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
This topic is so full of fail >.<
And what is this about implying that we're not caring about ISK sellers at all? Do you have some mysterious insight into what is happening here? Been reading our logs much perhaps? Or just pulling those facts out of the air? Mayhaps you have a better understanding of the nature of this fight than everyone who's been working on it since launch?
At any rate, you got one thing half right. ISK buyers are not just as bad as ISK sellers. They're a whole lot worse, they create the problem even though we've offered them a legal way of spending their salary on pretend money.
Abridged the quote, but I agree. CCP tries... But just look at the sales spammers in HELP as an example.. they remove one and other takes its place right away. Its not that CCP is not banning them there. They just have too many loyal customers to go away.
As long as pond scum keeps buying their ISK to cheat in a pretend world. They will keep comming back, its not like they enjoy the way a good majority of the community treats suspected macro accounts {smart bomb apocs..etc etc}
Want to help CCP get rid of them. Report suspect ISK buyers as well as the suspected farmer accounts.
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Lady Trade
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:26:00 -
[29]
Well since static complexes have been removed I think the situation for farmers and ISK sellers must have gotten much worse. We had this one guy (well 3-5 Accounts but only one person actually playing) who did nothing else the whole day except login after downtime, loot the keys for the plex and then was invul for the next 22,9h farming the plex with his 3 accounts. I never saw him again since you now actually have to probe to find plexes. Thats a good first step.. especially because you won't be making a working macro for probing and plex-finding any time soon imho and it requires a lot of time in which you have to move around (so the famer is also no longer invul).
So i don't CCP is loosing. |
Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:33:00 -
[30]
Another thing CCP could do to lessen the amount of farmers in 0.0 would be to disable cloaks on battleships. It's getting old jumping in to systems with farmers that instantly warp and cloak as soon as someone enter local.
Signature approved by Eldo |
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