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Chith
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Posted - 2004.02.19 18:53:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Chith on 19/02/2004 18:55:54
I've been trying to make this work out on paper with a mega; not quite an apoc, but I'd probably argue it's the second most appropriate ship to try this on. So far it seems like getting a feisable setup is really hard. The fitting reqs are just really harsh. With 950 powercore per repairer, I'm taking a significant hit in what the ship can pump out. Especially considering that in order to grab more powercore or cpu, I have to burn yet even MORE low slots. All armor-specific modules are stuck in the low slots right now - as are all powercore/cpu buffs and most any other passive buff that i'd use to grab ever precious cap (power diags). If I wanted to shove a cap booster into my mid slots to compensate, that's even MORE powercore (1000s) I'd have to scrounge together, further borking my low slots. Maybe a nos or two would make it work, but daaaamn.
It's a very extreme and risky setup (translation: crappy), with little or no room for luxuries like armor hardeners. Even if some of these modules were moved out of low slots -- what are you going to do? Seems to take up many more slots in general to armor tank considering the extra fitting you're going to need and the fact that you'd have to double up on things like armor repairers to match out the shield tank performance for hps/sec.
In the end, I think the main sacrifice any armor tank is going to make is damage output. Damage, damage damage. I'm moving forward with an ion cannon setup (short range blasters). With the new easier reqs, these are a thin 2000 powercore a pop. I suppose I could save a crapton of powercore and go with dual heavies, but man, that'd be pretty ghetto. I guess that damage would be easily made up if I could mount just one damage boost in yet another low slot... Rails aren't even an option.
Guess I'll try out things on chaos this evening. Maybe I'll come across something odd.
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The Tarsis Shriners |
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2004.02.19 20:38:00 -
[62]
 Quote:
There are now two proposed Nerfs to the Cap relay and how they affect shields.
1.) Shield recharge becomes a significant stat much like cap recharge. It losing the recharge becomes a significant penalty.
2.) Cap Relays behave as a negative shield booster amplifier. They decrease the amount of benifit that shield boosters give to shields.
Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option  wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity 
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Lhyda Souljacker
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Posted - 2004.02.19 23:01:00 -
[63]
Quote:
Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity
That will be even more atractive to us blasterboat pilots who are stuckk with crap for shields after we put on the MWD.
I wonder if the fitting on the L Armor repairers is all that fair (even taking into account armors enhanced resistance) considering it takes two to even remotely equal an XL booster. Maybe they could look into a medium slot armor repair amp.
... That's when I reach for my revolver ... |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2004.02.20 01:28:00 -
[64]
Quote:
Quote:
There are now two proposed Nerfs to the Cap relay and how they affect shields.
1.) Shield recharge becomes a significant stat much like cap recharge. It losing the recharge becomes a significant penalty.
2.) Cap Relays behave as a negative shield booster amplifier. They decrease the amount of benifit that shield boosters give to shields.
Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity
Unfortunately as its been stated before. Maximum shield hp isn't a very important stat. Its how fast you can refresh your shields that is important.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2004.02.20 01:59:00 -
[65]
true, although it is at least some penalty, which currently shield recharge is not
.
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Arthur Guinness
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Posted - 2004.02.20 08:24:00 -
[66]
binding a cap realy nerf to shields isn't really good, as it would be the caldari ships, suffering most of it. And seriously, caldari don't need yet an other nerf. In fact i didn't know there was still anything left that they could nerf. |
T'el'Alana Luathin
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Posted - 2004.02.20 09:47:00 -
[67]
Actually, the solution to cap relay vs shield regen problem is simple..
Make the increase in cap linear to the amount of shield regen rate. If you're gaining 60hp/s in shield regen, for example putting on one cap relay shifts 25 points over to cap, meaning a deduction of 25hp/s of shield regen, and 25cap/s increase for cap.
If you put 2 modules on, you're taking 50hp/s off shield regen, and adding 50cap/s.
If you add 3 modules.. then you can only suck up the last bit which is left, 10hp/s and turn it into 10cap/s.
What if a shield booster would boost the shield by percentages of cap regen, instead of giving a plain, hard shield hp increase? With this change, you then want as large cap regeneration as you can get, if you want to shield-tank. Then by using cap relays you are limiting exactly that shield booster module as well.
T.L.
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always look on the bright side of the cloning facility. |
Raknor
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Posted - 2004.02.20 12:05:00 -
[68]
After playing with many fittings on the Apoc I cant seem to get a setup that is equal to what can be currently done with shield tanking and cap relay's. The problems I'm having are.
1. In order to fit enough hardeners and repair units even with cap charge boosters I cant drive my cap regen high enough to still power my lasers.
2. A single large armor repair unit cant do the job.
3. Cap boosters take to much cargo to be usable in long term battles.
The only solutions I can see to these problems are as fallows.
1. In order to make cap charge boosters not used by the cap relay users but still be a viable second option to power ships they need to be given a high negative to your capacitor recharge rate. This negative would keep cap relay based ships from tacking on a second power source and never running out of power. At the same time Power grid and CPU requirements need to be set high enough on each mod so that ships with very few low slots cant realistically mount these modules due to not having enough room for CPU boosters and Reactor controls needed to mount them and weapons load outs.
2. Make armor boosters repair/sec be equal to that of shield boosters. Possible stats for them are.
All Unit have a 6 Sec Cycle time.
Small Armor 30 cap, 45 Armor, 5 PG, 5 CPU
Medium Armor 60 cap, 90 Armor, 30 PG, 45 CPU
Large Armor 120 cap, 180 Armor, 375 PG, 90 CPU
X-Large Armor 300 cap, 450 Armor, 1250 PG, 180 CPU
I fully realize that with Repair Skill lvl 5 these have the same repair rate per second as a shield boosters and are more cap friendly. This can be balanced by the cap charge boosters not be given quite the same regen rate as what a relay user can on a equivalent ship. This would make it so that the cap charge boosters are only realistic to use if you ship uses Armor Tanking.
3. Cap charges need to get a similar size reduction as what missiles and ammo have in the past. From what I can tell a size reduction of a factor of 10 would be about right, but only if cap charge booster were reworked so that relay users couldn't use it it as a second power source.
Armor Tanking can be possible. We just need to rework the traditional Eve thinking of Cap power relays to be the only way to power a solo ship.
May your gunĘs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it. |
LLeBRing
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Posted - 2004.02.21 16:20:00 -
[69]
I tried it on CHAOS. With the way its setup atm, you won't ever catch me or my apoc putting that setup on
Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella  |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.21 18:06:00 -
[70]
"After playing with many fittings on the Apoc I cant seem to get a setup that is equal to what can be currently done with shield tanking and cap relay's."
... Well, given how the cap relays are getting the nerf, perhaps you are simply not supposed to get something equally insane when armour tanking? ;s
If the cap relay based shield tanking gets the nerf, and armour tanking gets the boost with no damage seeping and whatnot, they just might wind up on comparable level of functionality... o.o
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JoshWhileBanned
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Posted - 2004.02.21 18:56:00 -
[71]
j0,
How are cap relays being changed then?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.21 18:58:00 -
[72]
Dunno, there's at least three theories on what can be done flying around i think. o.o;
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2004.02.21 21:18:00 -
[73]
I tried to armor tank earlier on chaos.
As far as I can tell, it doesn't cut it, but that might be due to the chronic lag on chaos recently, and the freaky missile problems.
Without doubt, I lasted longer than I would have without any tanking. But the large armour reapirs (best rare - 720hp/12 sec) couldn't keep up with the damage from one BS.
mids - 4 top rare cap rechargers
lows - 5 32.5% armor resists (various) and 2 L armour reps
the only way I could keep the L's running would be to fit 8 nosferatus, and steal the other guys cap :/
I'll try it again when I get the skills to fit the 50% resists... (hopefully, the monst0r lag will be fixed by then too :D
.
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Novo DuPont
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Posted - 2004.02.21 21:41:00 -
[74]
TOMB:
When will Hull Repairers get properly fixed/balanced???
Right now most ships have some what close to the same amount of structure points as armor points. While Armor Repairers can reapir upto hundreds of armor points with short durations, Hull Repairs still repair very small amounts in comparison and have bad durations.
I mean even with multiple Hull Repaiers it takes A LONG time to repair your hull if it has alot of damage, specially if it is a BS. Armor can be fixed at rates of 3 to 4 times faster than hulls can with less energy. Hull Repaiers are also Med slot devices while armor repaiers are low slot now. Why was not Hull Repaiers also moved to low slots as well since all hull mods are low slot items??
Thanks for your responce in advance :)
"To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
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MSDborris
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Posted - 2004.02.22 05:29:00 -
[75]
Quote:
I tried to armor tank earlier on chaos.
As far as I can tell, it doesn't cut it, but that might be due to the chronic lag on chaos recently, and the freaky missile problems.
Without doubt, I lasted longer than I would have without any tanking. But the large armour reapirs (best rare - 720hp/12 sec) couldn't keep up with the damage from one BS.
mids - 4 top rare cap rechargers
lows - 5 32.5% armor resists (various) and 2 L armour reps
the only way I could keep the L's running would be to fit 8 nosferatus, and steal the other guys cap :/
I'll try it again when I get the skills to fit the 50% resists... (hopefully, the monst0r lag will be fixed by then too :D
what skills u need for those 50% ? ?
*****
" MSDborris, " Baka!, Hentia! "
***** |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2004.02.22 09:33:00 -
[76]
Edited by: ClawHammer III on 22/02/2004 09:44:47
IMO the best way to nerf cap relays would be to increase their CPU usage from 4 to something like 40. Its pretty ridiculous that such a powerful module can be fit practically for free.
Making shield recharge a meaningful stat would be a good idea too. I also liked the idea of giving them a shield boost penalty but an increase in cpu is probably enough.
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TWD
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Posted - 2004.02.22 09:37:00 -
[77]
Blasterthr0n with MWD, Heavy cap injector, Armor tanked is the r0x0r atm
but dont try it with neutron blasters ;) |
ClawHammer III
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Posted - 2004.02.22 09:46:00 -
[78]
Quote:
Blasterthr0n with MWD, Heavy cap injector, Armor tanked is the r0x0r atm
but dont try it with neutron blasters ;)
Agreed. Armor defence is definatly on par with shield defence now. 
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MSDborris
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Posted - 2004.02.22 10:18:00 -
[79]
Quote:
Edited by: JoshWhileBanned on 22/02/2004 09:23:27
Hull Upgrades Level 4 and Engineering 2.
thats it ? i got both those skills on lvl 5. and mech lvl 5.
by your first post you made those pre-erq sound high, oh well im still months behind in skill area's ( Need implants.)
*****
" MSDborris, " Baka!, Hentia! "
***** |
Synapse Archae
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Posted - 2004.02.22 11:22:00 -
[80]
Why should the apoc get yet a further boost?
Please balance the ships before adding new functionality. As it is and apoc easily drops any other ship in the game and/or is extremely difficult to dammage via shield tanking (and now armor tanking)
The only viably method to stop an apoc is to damp it and then outrun it, and even then you have to bring in ton of other ships to kill it.
Why should the apoc get the best of both attack and defence?
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[/IMG]http://millerfam.org/eve/synapse_logo.jpg[/IMG]
Everyone deserves a chance to live.
My job is to make sure they get it. |
LLeBRing
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Posted - 2004.02.22 20:07:00 -
[81]
what do you fly a cruiser??? good god people the apoc isn't indestructable..
If you tank one out its got bugger all firepower
gods peeps are ridiculous. A properly tanked raven and scorp can take apoc beatings like no tomorrow, switch to kinetic torps or whatever dmg the apoc doesn't have resist against and its screwed. Oh wait, how about warp scrambling it???
bunch of noobs I swear.
So far, armor tanking isn't as desirable.
for all you noobs who think an apoc is indestructable?? Fly one, or ask people who pvp in them (carebears in empire space hunting npc's don't count)
Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella |
Sniperpirate
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Posted - 2004.02.22 23:27:00 -
[82]
IMO appoc is the easier ship to kill!!! if it has a sheid tank..but armor tank and its a different story
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Memer Of The Xetic Alliance/Immensea Federation
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.23 21:50:00 -
[83]
800mm armour modules seem also to require level 5 hull upgrades, whilst 400mm require level 3, and 1600mm requires level 5.
Should the 800mm's be level 4 instead, bridging the gap?
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