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TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:38:00 - [1] I have fixed the damage seeping through armor to structure at the rate as it was going on Chaos, damage should not go to structure unless less than 25% armor is left. Also the invulnerability when down to 0 structure should be fixed now. Anyone who can armor tank, please test on Chaos. Also please run logserver just incase you might find a bug where damage goes to structure even when not below 25% armor, and contact a Bug Hunter on the irc or in "eve-chaos" channel in-game and give him the most pretty log. Anyway, armor tanking should finally get useful with these fixes - test out an Apocalypse with 2 armor repairers, 2-3 armor hardeners, 2-3 cap relays, med slot cap rechargers/boosters. So you wanted to test out some boosters?
TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:42:00 - [2] FIX DAMAGE CONTROL So you wanted to test out some boosters?
Raven DeBlade	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:44:00 - [3] FIX NPCS will ya :) "To hunt pirates you need time and patience, because even monkeys fall from the trees" "Any statements made above this line are my persona"
Vel Kyri	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:44:00 - [4] It would be even better if shielde also seeped damage when they get to 25% as well. -----
TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:45:00 - [5] Quote: It would be even better if shielde also seeped damage when they get to 25% as well. They do, unless you got Tactical Shield Manipulation skill So you wanted to test out some boosters?
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:46:00 - [6] FIX MISSILES evil smiley k? :) Thanks for this [Heterocephalus glaber]
TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:47:00 - [7] Quote: FIX NPCS will ya :) k So you wanted to test out some boosters?
Lola	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:48:00 - [8] You seriously need to listen to Raven. Guristas are crazy! ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 11:48:00 - [9] Quote: FIX MISSILES evil smiley k? k So you wanted to test out some boosters?
bugeye	Posted - 2004.02.18 12:17:00 - [10] Quote: Anyway, armor tanking should finally get useful with these fixes - test out an Apocalypse with 2 armor repairers, 2-3 armor hardeners, 2-3 cap relays, med slot cap rechargers/boosters. I use armor tanked ships for several months now and never found it useless. The only thing i miss are the 'reinforced steel armor plate' blueprints. business is war!

Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.18 12:20:00 - [11] Quote: Quote: It would be even better if shielde also seeped damage when they get to 25% as well. They do, unless you got Tactical Shield Manipulation skill So the Tactical Shield Manipulation skill is actually useful or does that only apply if you're running a tac shield as your shields get below 25%? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.02.18 12:23:00 - [12] So, any changes to the damage circle thingy? FYI it only shows shield (left side) and armor (right side). So if people are at 50% hull, 0% armor they look completely dead while they're certainly NOT.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.18 12:40:00 - [13] Anyone get the feeling local hull conversion mods are going to become very popular? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Lola	Posted - 2004.02.18 12:59:00 - [14] Quote: Anyone get the feeling local hull conversion mods are going to become very popular? I think it's the 1600mm plating that will catch on. 10000 armor without seepage... oh yeah ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
Cirle	Posted - 2004.02.18 13:16:00 - [15] Quote: Quote: Anyone get the feeling local hull conversion mods are going to become very popular? I think it's the 1600mm plating that will catch on. 10000 armor without seepage... oh yeah Mmmmmm... can we have a 1600 shield extender as well please :) (yes, yes, I know that would increase the recharge rate, and be completely unbalanced, and all that jazz... but dreaming is nice sometimes) Cirle
Siphol Kalarth	Posted - 2004.02.18 14:18:00 - [16] 16000 shild extenders increase the recharge rate? Well, unless I've missed something my response to that: so? When was shield recharge actually worth anything? I keep faith, it's only what I believe in that changes.
Cao Cao	Posted - 2004.02.18 14:33:00 - [17] I'm glad armor tanking is getting love, it is badly needed hopefully when cap relays are fixed (by fixing shield recharge!!!) then armor tanking on apocs and armageddons will become more viable option cuz as it is now the best shield tank is the apoc.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.18 14:43:00 - [18] so is there a skill that does that the dmg dont get through if u have 25% armor? like Tactical Armor Manipulation? and will the Armor Repairer duration time be decreased? and using 2 armor repairers, 2-3 armor hardeners, 2-3 cap relays is bad couse u dont need 2 xl shield booster to tank ur shields? right? "We brake for nobody"
Kovak	Posted - 2004.02.18 15:36:00 - [19] This is excellent news, can't test it today due to Uni work but I will surely be playin.. erm testing tommorow. Thx tomb :)
Arthur Eld	Posted - 2004.02.18 15:43:00 - [20] Edited by: Arthur Eld on 18/02/2004 15:46:38 Quote: so is there a skill that does that the dmg dont get through if u have 25% armor? like Tactical Armor Manipulation? and will the Armor Repairer duration time be decreased? and using 2 armor repairers, 2-3 armor hardeners, 2-3 cap relays is bad couse u dont need 2 xl shield booster to tank ur shields? right? Nor do you need 1, and preferably 2, level 5 skills to shield tank. Nor is there even an extra large equivalent of an armour repairer, although I would hate to see the grid and cpu reqs for it if there were. ____________________ First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.

Juan Andalusian	Posted - 2004.02.18 16:15:00 - [21] How does seeping work after 25% armor? Is it a fixed chance of random % of damage seeping depending on armor %? Or is it fixed % of damage seeping 100% depending on armor %? Any skills to decrease such factors? Pain is meant to be felt
TomB	Posted - 2004.02.18 18:44:00 - [22] med and large armor repairers were reduced in mechanic skill requirement So you wanted to test out some boosters?
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.02.18 18:47:00 - [23] \o/ [looks at mechanics lvl5] d'ohh! [Heterocephalus glaber]
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:09:00 - [24] I think most armour repairers could do with a modest decrease in activation time. Also, they should repair from the start of activation rather than at the end. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Xtro 2	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Xtro 2 on 18/02/2004 19:14:49 Quote: I think most armour repairers could do with a modest decrease in activation time. Also, they should repair from the start of activation rather than at the end. Makes sense as it is tbh, shields use energy which can be charged so long as the power is there, armour is a physical thing, actual metal/armour, if you wanted to repair your tv, it takes time to do so, as bits need to be added/replaced to repair it, as such its only expected the armour has to take time to be regenerated/rebuild. __________________________________________ Hell is nothing more than an office with fluorecent lights.
Discorporation	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:18:00 - [26] I'm okay with repairing at the start, but not with a decreased time it takes to repair. Don't want armour to be come Shield V1.2 =\ [Heterocephalus glaber]
Arthur Eld	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:21:00 - [27] Quote: Edited by: Xtro 2 on 18/02/2004 19:14:49 Quote: I think most armour repairers could do with a modest decrease in activation time. Also, they should repair from the start of activation rather than at the end. Makes sense as it is tbh, shields use energy which can be charged so long as the power is there, armour is a physical thing, actual metal/armour, if you wanted to repair your tv, it takes time to do so, as bits need to be added/replaced to repair it, as such its only expected the armour has to take time to be regenerated/rebuild. Would you like to have to wait 15 seconds before your armour started repairing when you take armour damage, while shield users get the instant shield boost? I think it should be at the begining of the cycle just like sheild boosters. ____________________ First comes smiles, then lies. Last is gunfire. We deal in lead.
Draginslayer	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:23:00 - [28] Thx for fixing the skills on large armor repairers, when power relays get changed/fixed I think they will be really even in output. (if the relays are about equal to cap rechargers)(free up 3-4 mid slots and use 3-4 low slots in switch from shield to armor tank, right now that would cause a huge loss in cap recharge time) Large armor x2 (2 low slots) 180 cpu (90 each) 1900 powergrid (950 each) 1200 hp (600 each) 800 energy (400 each) 15 sec (lets say repair systems 4 so 12s) = 100 hp/s (1200/12) = 66.6 energy/s (800/12) XL shield booster + shield amp (2 med slots) (don't know cpu/pg for amplifier) 200 cpu 500 powergrid 520 hp (400*1.3) 400 energy 5 sec = 104 hp/s (520/5) = 80 energy/s (400/5) Would be nice to add a skill that applies to armor like tac. shield man.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.02.18 19:24:00 - [29] Quote: I think most armour repairers could do with a modest decrease in activation time. No. Quote: Also, they should repair from the start of activation rather than at the end. Yeah. Mai's Idealog
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.02.18 20:11:00 - [30] Quote: XL shield booster + shield amp (2 med slots) (don't know cpu/pg for amplifier) 200 cpu You forgot to add CPU + grid for the shield amp. Total 250 CPU.

Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.18 20:45:00 - [31] Quote: Quote: I think most armour repairers could do with a modest decrease in activation time. No. why? couse u say so? NO! the armor repairer needs to have a shorter duration time, OR remove the cap usage of it!! i mean, doesnt take much cap to activate a repair drone or what that is repairing the armor... "We brake for nobody"
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.02.18 21:53:00 - [32] "the armor repairer needs to have a shorter duration time, OR remove the cap usage of it!! i mean, doesnt take much cap to activate a repair drone or what that is repairing the armor..." ... Armour has higher natural resistances than shield, so with the similar set of active hardeners it takes less damage than the shield over time. Meaning, the repair rate can be slower than rate of shield boost... with comparable end result. As for removing cap usage... please. Having shield tanking use large amounts of cap, but armour tanking completely free -- that's quite unbalanced, isn't it?
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:08:00 - [33] Quote: As for removing cap usage... please. Having shield tanking use large amounts of cap, but armour tanking completely free -- that's quite unbalanced, isn't it? i know! "We brake for nobody"
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:10:00 - [34] by armor tank ur ship ur cap recharge rate gets sucky, one thing u can do though is to use Cap Injectors, but due to the Cap Booster's HUGE size its not very likely... "We brake for nobody"
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:23:00 - [35] I think TomB mentioned the boosters size would be changed so you could hold more. No doubt the capacity of the cap booster itself will be changed to reflect this. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Jarjar	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:45:00 - [36] Quote: I think TomB mentioned the boosters size would be changed so you could hold more. No doubt the capacity of the cap booster itself will be changed to reflect this. I sure hope so, I usually go with 3 charges right now as holding more + ammo + missiles + some equipment is quite hard.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:47:00 - [37] Same here - 2 in the module and 3 in the hold. Pity there isn't a skill which reduces re-activation time for cap boosters. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.18 22:49:00 - [38] but still, 800 extra cap each 15 sec is good! "We brake for nobody"
Lysanne	Posted - 2004.02.18 23:13:00 - [39] fix cap power relays. they are way to powerful compared to med slot cap rechargers. they are what makes armor defense so bad. need translation ?
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2004.02.19 02:59:00 - [40] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 19/02/2004 03:01:05 Armour & Shields are DIFFERENT and as such they should have DIFFERENT characteristics & behaviours. MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."

Lucas De'Thal	Posted - 2004.02.19 03:21:00 - [41] how about slightly less cpu requirements on the armor platings (all varieties) since technically, they are just plates ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2004.02.19 03:31:00 - [42] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 19/02/2004 03:33:05 Quote: why? couse u say so? NO! Because when you change game mechanics, you should sometimes do one change at a time and let that change go down to the stomach of the players before your stuff a new one down their throat. Let's see how armor tanking performs with HP-gain at activation start first, because that alone might have a serious impact on armor-tanking. This change coupled with less-requirements or higher boosting values of the amor-tanking mods might lead to these modules being overpowered and everyone rushing for Megas. Additionally, like j0 pointed out, armor has more natural resistance than shields. You need to keep armor-tanking and shield-tanking equally effective however, because if you make one of them stronger only that one will be used by the players. Mai's Idealog
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.02.19 05:57:00 - [43] Armor tanks sacrifice speed, cap recharge, damage mods, and fitting options. Shield tanks sacrifice.... um. tracking computers? Still think armor tanking is inefficient in comparison to shield tanking, but I need to test it out still. Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.19 07:18:00 - [44] Quote: Armor tanks sacrifice speed, cap recharge, damage mods, and fitting options. Shield tanks sacrifice.... um. tracking computers? Still think armor tanking is inefficient in comparison to shield tanking, but I need to test it out still. Armor tanking is a whole different animal. For one thing, when armor tanking you don't even begin to utilize your cap until your opponent strips your shields. If they're already hitting the shield booster and you've got a full tank of cap... I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
sokkusu	Posted - 2004.02.19 08:10:00 - [45] Edited by: sokkusu on 19/02/2004 08:12:03 This post will be flame but i want to write it. To construct a ships you need minerals, to repair ships in station you need ISK. to repair your ships in space you need nothing . Does the last point is a bit unfair. PVPer whine because there isn't enough PVP but there is no meaning for a non figther player to fight since the winner don't lose ISK in repairation. Some suggestions have been made on this forum first : Armor/hull repairer don't repair all the amor / hull (repair until a certain percent) second : put a lifespan on this modules. consume HP each time you use it once hp = 0 module is destroy for example. third : when you use armor/hull repairer you consume minerals(trit, megacyte, pyerite) which are in your cargo. forth : put you suggestion here. Some player will say they can't afford the price of repairation. i'll answer : fly cruisers or fregates or stay away of trouble.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.19 08:31:00 - [46] Quote: Edited by: sokkusu on 19/02/2004 08:12:03 This post will be flame but i want to write it. To construct a ships you need minerals, to repair ships in station you need ISK. to repair your ships in space you need nothing . Does the last point is a bit unfair. PVPer whine because there isn't enough PVP but there is no meaning for a non figther player to fight since the winner don't lose ISK in repairation. Some suggestions have been made on this forum first : Armor/hull repairer don't repair all the amor / hull (repair until a certain percent) second : put a lifespan on this modules. consume HP each time you use it once hp = 0 module is destroy for example. third : when you use armor/hull repairer you consume minerals(trit, megacyte, pyerite) which are in your cargo. forth : put you suggestion here. Some player will say they can't afford the price of repairation. i'll answer : fly cruisers or fregates or stay away of trouble. Regardless of how they are perceived, the repair systems are combat modules. Amarr battleships are designed to make use of armor/hull repair during battle as a defensive mechanism. Given that ships with low amounts of midslots are only capable of shield tanking to the effectiveness they have today due to an obviously imbalanced module your suggestion be dooming the entire Amarr ship line, along with several other race's ships like the Typhoon and the Megathron. to having ineffective defensive capabilities. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.19 11:30:00 - [47] why armor tank when u can shield tank? Armor is in every way inferior to shields. 1) The shield is the primary layer, armor secondary.. already this means the shield is a strategic buffer zone of higher value than armor. 2) tanking a shield takes 3 med-slots, and frees up your low slots for damage mods, cap relays, powergrid boosters, warp scramblers, tracking mods, and et cetera. 3) tanking armor, by tomb's description will take 4-5 low slots, free up 2-3 med slots, but limit total capacitor recharge you can get (cap is life btw.. plus u need to waste med-slots on cap rechargers), limit powergrid or damage mod uses (means crappier guns, less damage). Not a very nice alternative to shield tanking yet.. You mentioned the apoc. The apoc uses lasers, which need alot of cap. The most cap you get is via low slot items. Shield uses med-slot items. So by shield tanking on an apoc you get to have your cake and eat it too, because you get the maximum amount of cap recharge, and can vary cap use between the shield drain and laser drain (and cap is just always great to have). Apoc suffers if he starts to use armor to tank because then you're juggling between tanking armor, having enough powergrid for lasers, having enough cap recharge for the whole thing and so on.. You can't justify the med-slot cap rechargers.. they just suck, especially when you have the low-slot version, and they take one of the few med-slots. You maybe could justify cap boosters.. but the ammo is just too cumbersome, too few fit into each volley, and you have a perfectly good low-slot item which is better when you stack a few together because it doesn't use ammo. I've yet to check out the numbers behind the resistance difference.. but I'm guessing the difference is not big enough in damage-soaking to make it worth it. It would be great if amarrians would be = big guns+big armor, but that's just not the best way to juggle the module slots as it is now.. shields are too much alike armor to make it worth it. I'm not saying it's a horrible idea to armor tank.. I'm saying there are alot fewer reasons to armor tank than shield tank. and you might just be screwing yourself over, if you don't know what you're doing.. You would only armor tank if you really wanted the med-slots free for EW or ECM.. but then tagging along a BB or a scorp would be better. Of course, tomb is the one who needs to balance it.. and I don't envy his position.. well maybe just a little bit. :) T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
bugeye	Posted - 2004.02.19 12:06:00 - [48] Quote: why armor tank when u can shield tank? Armor is in every way inferior to shields. Armor tanking frees med-slots, allowing short range fighters to use stuff like web, warp scrambler or weapon disruptors. And when the Nosferatu's are fixed, energy should not be much of a problem once u get close to your enemy. business is war!
Jernau Gurgeh	Posted - 2004.02.19 12:39:00 - [49] Quote: Edited by: sokkusu on 19/02/2004 08:12:03 This post will be flame but i want to write it. To construct a ships you need minerals, to repair ships in station you need ISK. to repair your ships in space you need nothing . Does the last point is a bit unfair. PVPer whine because there isn't enough PVP but there is no meaning for a non figther player to fight since the winner don't lose ISK in repairation. Some suggestions have been made on this forum first : Armor/hull repairer don't repair all the amor / hull (repair until a certain percent) second : put a lifespan on this modules. consume HP each time you use it once hp = 0 module is destroy for example. third : when you use armor/hull repairer you consume minerals(trit, megacyte, pyerite) which are in your cargo. forth : put you suggestion here. Some player will say they can't afford the price of repairation. i'll answer : fly cruisers or fregates or stay away of trouble. As an alternative to #3 above, how about having metal plates that you can load into and armour / hull repairs much as you load ammo into guns? To compensate, I'd suggest seriously lowering the cap requirements of these modules There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not.
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.02.19 13:10:00 - [50] "2) tanking a shield takes 3 med-slots, and frees up your low slots for damage mods, cap relays, powergrid boosters, warp scramblers, tracking mods, and et cetera. 3) tanking armor, by tomb's description will take 4-5 low slots (..)" ... Not sure if you can effectively shield tank using just 3 slots -- Armageddon is widely considered hopeless to defend, exactly because of its 3 middle slots after all... while Apocalypse with its 4 slots seems to be considered OK so that's probably the minimum you'll need in practice?

TWD	Posted - 2004.02.19 13:28:00 - [51] Edited by: TWD on 19/02/2004 13:31:30 It works good. I used one of each kinetic, explosive and thermal armor hardeners.. large capacitor injector and large armor repairer. If capacitor charges get decreased in size, it will become a good alternative to shield tanking.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.02.19 14:13:00 - [52] Quote: 3) tanking armor, by tomb's description will take 4-5 low slots, free up 2-3 med slots, but limit total capacitor recharge you can get (cap is life btw.. plus u need to waste med-slots on cap rechargers), limit powergrid or damage mod uses (means crappier guns, less damage). Not a very nice alternative to shield tanking yet.. Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? and maybe low slot cap relays are way overpowered and need a nerf? Quote: You mentioned the apoc. The apoc uses lasers, which need alot of cap. The most cap you get is via low slot items. Shield uses med-slot items. So by shield tanking on an apoc you get to have your cake and eat it too, because you get the maximum amount of cap recharge, and can vary cap use between the shield drain and laser drain (and cap is just always great to have). Well cap relays are overpowered. Quote: Apoc suffers if he starts to use armor to tank because then you're juggling between tanking armor, having enough powergrid for lasers, having enough cap recharge for the whole thing and so on.. Well the raven can't tank and deal dmg either. so why should your apoc be able todo it? Quote: You can't justify the med-slot cap rechargers.. they just suck, especially when you have the low-slot version, and they take one of the few med-slots. Cap relays are overpowered. you're not supposed to shield and armor tank, hence you can use med slots on the apoc for your cap. Quote: You maybe could justify cap boosters.. but the ammo is just too cumbersome, too few fit into each volley, and you have a perfectly good low-slot item which is better when you stack a few together because it doesn't use ammo. ... you guessed it! Cap relays are overpowered :) maybe capcharges should be decreased in size a bit, but you can't decrease them to much, as they'd just be ³ber Quote: I've yet to check out the numbers behind the resistance difference.. but I'm guessing the difference is not big enough in damage-soaking to make it worth it. then you should check that before mentioning it. Quote: It would be great if amarrians would be = big guns+big armor, but that's just not the best way to juggle the module slots as it is now.. shields are too much alike armor to make it worth it. Maybe you wont get your cake and be able to eat it. Either go for a lot of dmg = gunship, or go for really good tank, can't do both, no ship is supposed to do that. Quote: I'm not saying it's a horrible idea to armor tank.. I'm saying there are alot fewer reasons to armor tank than shield tank. and you might just be screwing yourself over, if you don't know what you're doing.. You would only armor tank if you really wanted the med-slots free for EW or ECM.. but then tagging along a BB or a scorp would be better. Of course, tomb is the one who needs to balance it.. and I don't envy his position.. well maybe just a little bit. :) T.L. you wont get aship that can do everything, and Tomb is balancing that. and i really think cap relays need a nerf
Draginslayer	Posted - 2004.02.19 14:31:00 - [53] Quote: Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? and maybe low slot cap relays are way overpowered and need a nerf? Last time I checked, a correctly setup Raven could effectively Tank and Dmg deal (until missles run out at least) because missles use no energy and this leaves more energy to shield boost. Also, Cap relays are way unbalanced, but by nerfing them then amarr ships with their large number of lasers will be hit hard(It's pretty sad when Amarr BS users are using 425's over lasers because of how much better they are in dmg and cap usage, not to mention a lot less powergrid). Fixing cap boosters would help this because but if they are made too small a size they would be too useful, like Arthur said.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.02.19 14:37:00 - [54] Quote: Quote: Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? and maybe low slot cap relays are way overpowered and need a nerf? Last time I checked, a correctly setup Raven could effectively Tank and Dmg deal (until missles run out at least) because missles use no energy and this leaves more energy to shield boost. <snip> It can't if a Raven really want's to deliver dmg it'll have to sacrifice 3-4 low slots. In which case it'll have fe** all cap recharge and wont be able to tank for long. remember tanking is all about how long you got cap left to boost. and btw armor tanking has one advantage over shield tanking, there's decent modules to get more armor. Ofc it isn't that important but a +2k armor plate is usefull while a +600shield hp extender is pointless.
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.19 14:45:00 - [55] Quote: ... Not sure if you can effectively shield tank using just 3 slots -- Armageddon is widely considered hopeless to defend, exactly because of its 3 middle slots after all... while Apocalypse with its 4 slots seems to be considered OK so that's probably the minimum you'll need in practice? well, yeah.. the 4th slot gives you options of 30% shield amp, or an extra hardener.. I'd say though that the 3-slot shield fit is more used than any other. People like the apoc better because then you don't have to sacrifice a hardener for something else more critical, like sensor booster, or MWD or EW. T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.19 15:19:00 - [56] Quote: Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? and maybe low slot cap relays are way overpowered and need a nerf? It's always hard to discover what is normal damage per second, and what is uber damage per second.. Especially when you have as many variables as in EVE. Of course I believe that you should sacrifice one thing for another, be it damage for tank-hood, or tank-hood for damage. or tank-hood for EW, or tank-hood for ROF, or damage for range or whatever. I don't envy tomb for having to balance cap relays vs cap rechargers vs cap boosters, against low-slot vs med-slot, against tankhood vs powergrunt, against amarr vs caldari vs gallente vs minmatar ships, against frigate vs cruisers vs battleships.. capacitor is all about energy for the various systems. It's very popular to dump alot of cap relays onto almost any ship. A vulgar lowering of the effectiveness of the cap relays is not the right answer. Quote: Well cap relays are overpowered. Why? Quote: Well the raven can't tank and deal dmg either. so why should your apoc be able todo it? A raven can't shield tank and deal damage? with 6 medium slots and 6 missile slots??? Quote: you're not supposed to shield and armor tank, hence you can use med slots on the apoc for your cap. I'm not talking about shield _and_ armor tanking.. that'd be silly and not very doable.. you don't have enough cap to use either efficiently. Quote: ... you guessed it! Cap relays are overpowered :) maybe capcharges should be decreased in size a bit, but you can't decrease them to much, as they'd just be ³ber I'm getting seriously curious why you think barely enough cap to use guns/shields for 1 minute is enough.. The other argument people have is that fights are way too fast! This could be circumvented by a stronger cap recharge overall. then people wouldn't have so many problems with cap. Quote: then you should check that before mentioning it. nah, my feelings have always been correct so far. checking before mentioning isn't necessary in this case. Quote: Maybe you wont get your cake and be able to eat it. Either go for a lot of dmg = gunship, or go for really good tank, can't do both, no ship is supposed to do that. To really be an uber tank, sure.. you should have to sacrifice something for that. To be an uber gunship, you should have to sacrifice something for that. Guess what, in both cases you sacrifice capacitor recharge rate.. Quote: you wont get aship that can do everything, and Tomb is balancing that. and i really think cap relays need a nerf I don't want a ship which can do everything. I want viable options where I don't have to sacrifice combat-effectiveness over time (combat effectiveness is not only damage) and combat effectiveness relies heavily on the amount of cap you have. Perhaps cap relays is not the overpowering thing here.. it's the way combat has evolved into the one who has more cap wins. T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
Admiral IceBlock	Posted - 2004.02.19 16:06:00 - [57] Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 19/02/2004 16:08:56 Quote: Quote: Quote: Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? and maybe low slot cap relays are way overpowered and need a nerf? Last time I checked, a correctly setup Raven could effectively Tank and Dmg deal (until missles run out at least) because missles use no energy and this leaves more energy to shield boost. <snip> It can't if a Raven really want's to deliver dmg it'll have to sacrifice 3-4 low slots. In which case it'll have fe all cap recharge and wont be able to tank for long. remember tanking is all about how long you got cap left to boost. and btw armor tanking has one advantage over shield tanking, there's decent modules to get more armor. Ofc it isn't that important but a +2k armor plate is usefull while a +600shield hp extender is pointless. i can shield tank my raven and do uber dmg... armor tanking sucks... Quote: Maybe you're not supposed to deliver ³ber dmg and have ³ber defensive? eh? armor tanking aint uber, shield tanking is... i can run my xl booster and my 4 tachyons almost 4ever on my apoc... Quote: Quote: Well cap relays are overpowered. Why? why u say? couse u can run stuff almost 4ever, my apoc with 7xCap relays is uber... Quote:** Maybe you wont get your cake and be able to eat it. Either go for a lot of dmg = gunship, or go for really good tank, can't do both, no ship is supposed to do that. or use the apoc to do uber dmg and uber shield defence... conclusion, armor tanking sucks, shield tanking is MUCH MUCH MORE better!!! with a cap recharge of about a 100 on my apoc and about 6000 cap i can run my xl booster and gun for a very long time... if i would use armor tanking, i would lose my good cap recharge rate and die... "We brake for nobody"
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.19 16:55:00 - [58] Quote: why u say? couse u can run stuff almost 4ever, my apoc with 7xCap relays is uber... I think this power scarcity isn't very logical.. You make damned sure that you can give power to your systems, similar to the power companies making damned sure they don't run out after 1 minute of use. Controlling where cap goes is one other option you have to think about in combat, but making it so damned hard to run everything that almost all setups have a combat survival rate of about 1 minute (and then the cap gives out on you) is just ridiculous. I've never seen this problem with any sci-fi fantasy movie/series. They might divert power from one thing to another, but they don't go "Crap.. no more power.. we'll have to wait a few minutes before we can do anything". The best way to balance this would be to ignore shield booster altogether.. totally ignore it, let's say it never existed.. then would everyone be in such dire cap needs? If there is no shield booster to suck up cap, then all of a sudden you don't expect shields to be the monster-soakers as they are today, because you only have access to shield hp additions, damage-type wards and static shield recharge rate modules. All of a sudden you have to really optimise/sacrifice to be a shield tank, which is good. Lasers are balanced cap suckers against other types of weapons.. it's not balanced against that everyone including their grandma use shield boosters on all types of ships from frigates, cruisers to battleships. The way cap relays work isn't the problem.. what people are using to be mildly effective in combat is the problem. Why is it ok that everyone feels he has to have a shield booster to be the least bit effective? Looking at armor as a viable alternative to shields is fine. I like the idea.. but first you need to balance shield mods vs cap-use against armor mods vs cap use and then against each other. If only amarr is supposed to look at armor as a viable alternative.. then something's wrong.. all the races should look at it as a viable option with specific setups. T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
Lysanne	Posted - 2004.02.19 17:11:00 - [59] caldari shield minmatarr shield/armor gallente armor/shield amarr armor thats it. look at the ship stats and med slots. Quote: The way cap relays work isn't the problem.. it is. the downside on cap power relays only hurt setups who dont have shieldbooster equipped. it¦s the armor defense. armor also sucks your low slots away needed for cap regen. The way cap relays work is the problem ! need translation ?
Belzavior	Posted - 2004.02.19 18:20:00 - [60] When ever a module becomes a must have module for ships. Its a sure sign that it's too powerfull and will be nerfed soon. Cap relays supposedly work by draining power from the shields. (A shield recharge penalty.) The problem is that Shield recharge is a useless stat when you can regen your shields with boosters. There are now two proposed Nerfs to the Cap relay and how they affect shields. 1.) Shield recharge becomes a significant stat much like cap recharge. It losing the recharge becomes a significant penalty. 2.) Cap Relays behave as a negative shield booster amplifier. They decrease the amount of benifit that shield boosters give to shields.

Chith	Posted - 2004.02.19 18:53:00 - [61] Edited by: Chith on 19/02/2004 18:55:54 I've been trying to make this work out on paper with a mega; not quite an apoc, but I'd probably argue it's the second most appropriate ship to try this on. So far it seems like getting a feisable setup is really hard. The fitting reqs are just really harsh. With 950 powercore per repairer, I'm taking a significant hit in what the ship can pump out. Especially considering that in order to grab more powercore or cpu, I have to burn yet even MORE low slots. All armor-specific modules are stuck in the low slots right now - as are all powercore/cpu buffs and most any other passive buff that i'd use to grab ever precious cap (power diags). If I wanted to shove a cap booster into my mid slots to compensate, that's even MORE powercore (1000s) I'd have to scrounge together, further borking my low slots. Maybe a nos or two would make it work, but daaaamn. It's a very extreme and risky setup (translation: crappy), with little or no room for luxuries like armor hardeners. Even if some of these modules were moved out of low slots -- what are you going to do? Seems to take up many more slots in general to armor tank considering the extra fitting you're going to need and the fact that you'd have to double up on things like armor repairers to match out the shield tank performance for hps/sec. In the end, I think the main sacrifice any armor tank is going to make is damage output. Damage, damage damage. I'm moving forward with an ion cannon setup (short range blasters). With the new easier reqs, these are a thin 2000 powercore a pop. I suppose I could save a crapton of powercore and go with dual heavies, but man, that'd be pretty ghetto. I guess that damage would be easily made up if I could mount just one damage boost in yet another low slot... Rails aren't even an option. Guess I'll try out things on chaos this evening. Maybe I'll come across something odd. --- The Tarsis Shriners
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2004.02.19 20:38:00 - [62] Quote: There are now two proposed Nerfs to the Cap relay and how they affect shields. 1.) Shield recharge becomes a significant stat much like cap recharge. It losing the recharge becomes a significant penalty. 2.) Cap Relays behave as a negative shield booster amplifier. They decrease the amount of benifit that shield boosters give to shields. Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Lhyda Souljacker	Posted - 2004.02.19 23:01:00 - [63] Quote: Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity That will be even more atractive to us blasterboat pilots who are stuckk with crap for shields after we put on the MWD. I wonder if the fitting on the L Armor repairers is all that fair (even taking into account armors enhanced resistance) considering it takes two to even remotely equal an XL booster. Maybe they could look into a medium slot armor repair amp. ... That's when I reach for my revolver ...
Belzavior	Posted - 2004.02.20 01:28:00 - [64] Quote: Quote: There are now two proposed Nerfs to the Cap relay and how they affect shields. 1.) Shield recharge becomes a significant stat much like cap recharge. It losing the recharge becomes a significant penalty. 2.) Cap Relays behave as a negative shield booster amplifier. They decrease the amount of benifit that shield boosters give to shields. Search eve db for test capacitor power relay 10 / 15 and you'l find the third option wether that dates from a long time ago or is very recent I couldn't say .. but the option looked at there appears to be switching the shield recharge penalty for shield capacity Unfortunately as its been stated before. Maximum shield hp isn't a very important stat. Its how fast you can refresh your shields that is important.
Zyrla Bladestorm	Posted - 2004.02.20 01:59:00 - [65] true, although it is at least some penalty, which currently shield recharge is not . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
Arthur Guinness	Posted - 2004.02.20 08:24:00 - [66] binding a cap realy nerf to shields isn't really good, as it would be the caldari ships, suffering most of it. And seriously, caldari don't need yet an other nerf. In fact i didn't know there was still anything left that they could nerf.
T'el'Alana Luathin	Posted - 2004.02.20 09:47:00 - [67] Actually, the solution to cap relay vs shield regen problem is simple.. Make the increase in cap linear to the amount of shield regen rate. If you're gaining 60hp/s in shield regen, for example putting on one cap relay shifts 25 points over to cap, meaning a deduction of 25hp/s of shield regen, and 25cap/s increase for cap. If you put 2 modules on, you're taking 50hp/s off shield regen, and adding 50cap/s. If you add 3 modules.. then you can only suck up the last bit which is left, 10hp/s and turn it into 10cap/s. What if a shield booster would boost the shield by percentages of cap regen, instead of giving a plain, hard shield hp increase? With this change, you then want as large cap regeneration as you can get, if you want to shield-tank. Then by using cap relays you are limiting exactly that shield booster module as well. T.L. -- always look on the bright side of the cloning facility.
Raknor	Posted - 2004.02.20 12:05:00 - [68] After playing with many fittings on the Apoc I cant seem to get a setup that is equal to what can be currently done with shield tanking and cap relay's. The problems I'm having are. 1. In order to fit enough hardeners and repair units even with cap charge boosters I cant drive my cap regen high enough to still power my lasers. 2. A single large armor repair unit cant do the job. 3. Cap boosters take to much cargo to be usable in long term battles. The only solutions I can see to these problems are as fallows. 1. In order to make cap charge boosters not used by the cap relay users but still be a viable second option to power ships they need to be given a high negative to your capacitor recharge rate. This negative would keep cap relay based ships from tacking on a second power source and never running out of power. At the same time Power grid and CPU requirements need to be set high enough on each mod so that ships with very few low slots cant realistically mount these modules due to not having enough room for CPU boosters and Reactor controls needed to mount them and weapons load outs. 2. Make armor boosters repair/sec be equal to that of shield boosters. Possible stats for them are. All Unit have a 6 Sec Cycle time. Small Armor 30 cap, 45 Armor, 5 PG, 5 CPU Medium Armor 60 cap, 90 Armor, 30 PG, 45 CPU Large Armor 120 cap, 180 Armor, 375 PG, 90 CPU X-Large Armor 300 cap, 450 Armor, 1250 PG, 180 CPU I fully realize that with Repair Skill lvl 5 these have the same repair rate per second as a shield boosters and are more cap friendly. This can be balanced by the cap charge boosters not be given quite the same regen rate as what a relay user can on a equivalent ship. This would make it so that the cap charge boosters are only realistic to use if you ship uses Armor Tanking. 3. Cap charges need to get a similar size reduction as what missiles and ammo have in the past. From what I can tell a size reduction of a factor of 10 would be about right, but only if cap charge booster were reworked so that relay users couldn't use it it as a second power source. Armor Tanking can be possible. We just need to rework the traditional Eve thinking of Cap power relays to be the only way to power a solo ship. May your gunÆs strike truth into those who wish to oppress it.
LLeBRing	Posted - 2004.02.21 16:20:00 - [69] I tried it on CHAOS. With the way its setup atm, you won't ever catch me or my apoc putting that setup on Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.02.21 18:06:00 - [70] "After playing with many fittings on the Apoc I cant seem to get a setup that is equal to what can be currently done with shield tanking and cap relay's." ... Well, given how the cap relays are getting the nerf, perhaps you are simply not supposed to get something equally insane when armour tanking? ;s If the cap relay based shield tanking gets the nerf, and armour tanking gets the boost with no damage seeping and whatnot, they just might wind up on comparable level of functionality... o.o

JoshWhileBanned	Posted - 2004.02.21 18:56:00 - [71] j0, How are cap relays being changed then?
j0sephine	Posted - 2004.02.21 18:58:00 - [72] Dunno, there's at least three theories on what can be done flying around i think. o.o;
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.21 21:18:00 - [73] I tried to armor tank earlier on chaos. As far as I can tell, it doesn't cut it, but that might be due to the chronic lag on chaos recently, and the freaky missile problems. Without doubt, I lasted longer than I would have without any tanking. But the large armour reapirs (best rare - 720hp/12 sec) couldn't keep up with the damage from one BS. mids - 4 top rare cap rechargers lows - 5 32.5% armor resists (various) and 2 L armour reps the only way I could keep the L's running would be to fit 8 nosferatus, and steal the other guys cap :/ I'll try it again when I get the skills to fit the 50% resists... (hopefully, the monst0r lag will be fixed by then too :D .
Novo DuPont	Posted - 2004.02.21 21:41:00 - [74] TOMB: When will Hull Repairers get properly fixed/balanced??? Right now most ships have some what close to the same amount of structure points as armor points. While Armor Repairers can reapir upto hundreds of armor points with short durations, Hull Repairs still repair very small amounts in comparison and have bad durations. I mean even with multiple Hull Repaiers it takes A LONG time to repair your hull if it has alot of damage, specially if it is a BS. Armor can be fixed at rates of 3 to 4 times faster than hulls can with less energy. Hull Repaiers are also Med slot devices while armor repaiers are low slot now. Why was not Hull Repaiers also moved to low slots as well since all hull mods are low slot items?? Thanks for your responce in advance :) "To succeed greatly one must sacrifice greatly"
MSDborris	Posted - 2004.02.22 05:29:00 - [75] Quote: I tried to armor tank earlier on chaos. As far as I can tell, it doesn't cut it, but that might be due to the chronic lag on chaos recently, and the freaky missile problems. Without doubt, I lasted longer than I would have without any tanking. But the large armour reapirs (best rare - 720hp/12 sec) couldn't keep up with the damage from one BS. mids - 4 top rare cap rechargers lows - 5 32.5% armor resists (various) and 2 L armour reps the only way I could keep the L's running would be to fit 8 nosferatus, and steal the other guys cap :/ I'll try it again when I get the skills to fit the 50% resists... (hopefully, the monst0r lag will be fixed by then too :D what skills u need for those 50% ?? *** " MSDborris, " Baka!, Hentia! " ***
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2004.02.22 09:33:00 - [76] Edited by: ClawHammer III on 22/02/2004 09:44:47 IMO the best way to nerf cap relays would be to increase their CPU usage from 4 to something like 40. Its pretty ridiculous that such a powerful module can be fit practically for free. Making shield recharge a meaningful stat would be a good idea too. I also liked the idea of giving them a shield boost penalty but an increase in cpu is probably enough.
TWD	Posted - 2004.02.22 09:37:00 - [77] Blasterthr0n with MWD, Heavy cap injector, Armor tanked is the r0x0r atm but dont try it with neutron blasters ;)
ClawHammer III	Posted - 2004.02.22 09:46:00 - [78] Quote: Blasterthr0n with MWD, Heavy cap injector, Armor tanked is the r0x0r atm but dont try it with neutron blasters ;) Agreed. Armor defence is definatly on par with shield defence now.
MSDborris	Posted - 2004.02.22 10:18:00 - [79] Quote: Edited by: JoshWhileBanned on 22/02/2004 09:23:27 Hull Upgrades Level 4 and Engineering 2. thats it ? i got both those skills on lvl 5. and mech lvl 5. by your first post you made those pre-erq sound high, oh well im still months behind in skill area's ( Need implants.) *** " MSDborris, " Baka!, Hentia! " ***
Synapse Archae	Posted - 2004.02.22 11:22:00 - [80] Why should the apoc get yet a further boost? Please balance the ships before adding new functionality. As it is and apoc easily drops any other ship in the game and/or is extremely difficult to dammage via shield tanking (and now armor tanking) The only viably method to stop an apoc is to damp it and then outrun it, and even then you have to bring in ton of other ships to kill it. Why should the apoc get the best of both attack and defence? --------------------------------------------- [/IMG]http://millerfam.org/eve/synapse_logo.jpg[/IMG] Everyone deserves a chance to live. My job is to make sure they get it.

LLeBRing	Posted - 2004.02.22 20:07:00 - [81] what do you fly a cruiser??? good god people the apoc isn't indestructable.. If you tank one out its got bugger all firepower gods peeps are ridiculous. A properly tanked raven and scorp can take apoc beatings like no tomorrow, switch to kinetic torps or whatever dmg the apoc doesn't have resist against and its screwed. Oh wait, how about warp scrambling it??? bunch of noobs I swear. So far, armor tanking isn't as desirable. for all you noobs who think an apoc is indestructable?? Fly one, or ask people who pvp in them (carebears in empire space hunting npc's don't count) Nuttin but corn bread en chicken for this fella
Sniperpirate	Posted - 2004.02.22 23:27:00 - [82] IMO appoc is the easier ship to kill!!! if it has a sheid tank..but armor tank and its a different story --------------------- Memer Of The Xetic Alliance/Immensea Federation
Ruffles	Posted - 2004.02.23 21:50:00 - [83] 800mm armour modules seem also to require level 5 hull upgrades, whilst 400mm require level 3, and 1600mm requires level 5. Should the 800mm's be level 4 instead, bridging the gap?


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