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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Kessiaan
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Posted - 2007.09.30 06:13:00 -
[31]
Eve will never be huge anywhere.
- Steep death penalties
- Free for all PvP
- High learning curve
As for China, have you ever seen an Asian MMO? I bet the initial rush was just people checking it out - I would expect it to grow into a niche game there, like it is here on TQ.
Although I don't know why any chinese gamers (legitimate ones, not paid ISK farmers) would play on a China-only server.. I thought the whole point of TQ is that it was global.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 06:21:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2007 06:23:35
 Originally by: Kessiaan
Eve will never be huge anywhere.
I beg to differ.
EVE has the potential to become the largest MMO on the planet eventually.
In no small part, due to the fact it's constantly evolving instead of releasing completely new versions.
There will never be a separate "EVE II : EverStuff", we're already at "EVE 7.2.3" and "EVE 8.0.0" is coming up in a month or two.
Contrary to most other MMOs, in its entire lifetime it has seen constant rising numbers of subscribers, with a relatively steady growth and significant spikes on new expansions (partially due to returning players, partially due to advertising).
The new graphics engine and also ambulation has the potential to almost double the number of players until this time next year, if it's as good as advertised.
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Amarria Black
Clan Anthraxx
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Posted - 2007.09.30 06:22:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Leora Nomen
Slowly and regularly rising numbers? You mean they like to grind? Mining and mission running fit the bill then. Just gotta make asteroids looks less like common dirt and more like shiny expensive stuff - same goes for all the loot (frequency crystals imho are not shiny enough).
You missed the "never down" part. ISK gets spent. Mins get refined or sold. Ships get blown up. There's gotta be some degree of permanency or you lose a big portion of the Asian market.
Face it, even the carebear parts of EVE aren't carebear enough for the hardcore carebears.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 06:32:00 -
[34]
Yeah, I really missed that part in my "bulleted list" for "things that need a change on EVE-China":
* attacking other players in highsec is impossible
* attacking other players in lowsec is only possible with a war declaration (or else CONCORD shows up)
* highsec gateguns removed, moved to lowsec
* local NPCs respond to attacks on players in 0.0 systems like CONCORD would in lowsec, if the player has good standings with the local NPCs (difference in standings level of players involved determining the responce force materializing)
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annoing
Amarr
The Royal Guard
Giant Space Amoeba
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Posted - 2007.09.30 08:24:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Akita T
Recipie for success of EVE-China:
* ISK insurance for ship loss removed ; instead, you get an identical ship minus modules dropped in wreck in the "insurance station"
* clone insurance covers implants too ; new clone keeps all implants if clone is up-to-date (possible extra cost)
* system-generated ISK purchaseable for real Chinese money in limitless quantities (and this is where YOU will make most money from, not subscriptions)
* POS captured instead of destroyed
* performing an action increases SP gain in appropriate skill(s)
* attacking other players in highsec is impossible
* attacking other players in lowsec is only possible with a war declaration (or else CONCORD shows up)
* highsec gateguns removed, moved to lowsec
* local NPCs respond to attacks on players in 0.0 systems like CONCORD would in lowsec, if the player has good standings with the local NPCs (difference in standings level of players involved determining the responce force materializing)
So what you are saying is, to make the chinese server more popular, CCP have to carebear it to death and turn it into a whole different game to keep some people happy? How stupid are you? The game is what it is. If they dont like it then thats tough *******. As there is a chinese server let CCP ban all ip addresses from that region on the European server and they can transfer their account there for free, keeping all of their 'stuff'. Maybe then we would get rid of the chinese isk farmers that blot our server and are responsible for most of the real life isk sales. Maybe then ( we hope and prey) you can join them and live in the carebear utopia that you dream about
ps: 'prey' is spelt right for my thinking of you
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Kevin unknown
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Posted - 2007.09.30 08:29:00 -
[36]
hmmm....
the big alliances are :
Northern Alliance
FDK
PIBC
etc.
this is a hello from EVE China server, aka Serenity
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 08:44:00 -
[37]
Originally by: annoing
Originally by: Akita T
Recipie for success of EVE-China:
* ISK insurance for ship loss removed ; instead, you get an identical ship minus modules dropped in wreck in the "insurance station"
* clone insurance covers implants too ; new clone keeps all implants if clone is up-to-date (possible extra cost)
* system-generated ISK purchaseable for real Chinese money in limitless quantities (and this is where YOU will make most money from, not subscriptions)
* POS captured instead of destroyed
* performing an action increases SP gain in appropriate skill(s)
* attacking other players in highsec is impossible
* attacking other players in lowsec is only possible with a war declaration (or else CONCORD shows up)
* highsec gateguns removed, moved to lowsec
* local NPCs respond to attacks on players in 0.0 systems like CONCORD would in lowsec, if the player has good standings with the local NPCs (difference in standings level of players involved determining the responce force materializing)
So what you are saying is, to make the chinese server more popular, CCP have to carebear it to death and turn it into a whole different game to keep some people happy? How stupid are you? The game is what it is. If they dont like it then thats tough *******. As there is a chinese server let CCP ban all ip addresses from that region on the European server and they can transfer their account there for free, keeping all of their 'stuff'. Maybe then we would get rid of the chinese isk farmers that blot our server and are responsible for most of the real life isk sales. Maybe then ( we hope and prey) you can join them and live in the carebear utopia that you dream about
ps: 'prey' is spelt right for my thinking of you
Yes, that's EXACTLY what I'm saying.
EVE-China has no shread of hope of EVER becoming popular, IN CHINA, if it's not carebeared-up to the max.
However, if you THINK I might even consider such changes on EVE-Everywhere-Else, you must be a fool... I even specifically said something to the extent of "this would be a death sentence for EVE".
I'd quit EVE in a split second, after selling everything I have in-game for REAL world money (since, hey, it just became legal).
To reiterate... these are changes I DESPISE deeply and profoundly, but I still think they would be the only way to "save" EVE-China.
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[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.09.30 08:52:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ungdall
Wrangler, does it always put the little info at the bottom, or are your required to sign all your posts in that manner?
It's called a signature.
You have pictures of half-naked men in it, he has relevant info (and a much larger "allowance" for characters in it).
I'm not required to have it all in my signature, I just like to have it there so I can answer "read my sig" instead of writing a whole post.
Yes, I'm lazy... 
Wrangler
Community Manager
EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base
Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Ciuci
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.30 09:12:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2007 06:23:35
Originally by: Kessiaan
Eve will never be huge anywhere.
I beg to differ.
EVE has the potential to become the largest MMO on the planet eventually.
In no small part, due to the fact it's constantly evolving instead of releasing completely new versions.
I'm sorry to disagree but in it's current state, EvE will not be able to evolve. It does have the potential but in another form, and in the near future. For EvE to become what the devs and the designers thought it to be ... it has to be able to give as Huge battlefields ... with playable feeling. This will be duable in the near future "I HOPE"
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 09:17:00 -
[40]
Well, my faith in future technology developements and deployment schedules might be a bit exagerated, but IF they manage to succesfully convert the cluster to Infiniband and do a nice work with implementing a workable "remote access" system to RAM/RAMSANs/CPUs, and manage to rewrite the code so "on the fly" resource reallocation is possible... I don't see why not, manage to have 5k-vs-5k battles, with only moderate amount of lag.
It's a big "if", but.... oh well.
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Ciuci
FinFleet
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.09.30 09:22:00 -
[41]
from my experience "on the fly" writing only creates more problems than it solves.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 09:24:00 -
[42]
Since computational needs in a battlefield grid roughly grow by the order of (users_involved^2), there's no other way of ever doing it, given the current rate of technological developement.
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Karanth
Gallente
Cirrius Technologies
O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:13:00 -
[43]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ungdall
Wrangler, does it always put the little info at the bottom, or are your required to sign all your posts in that manner?
It's called a signature.
You have pictures of half-naked men in it, he has relevant info (and a much larger "allowance" for characters in it).
I'm not required to have it all in my signature, I just like to have it there so I can answer "read my sig" instead of writing a whole post.
Yes, I'm lazy...
One of these days, I'll click a link there. But then, I'm lazy too...
Free beer for those who mod my sig!
There is only one sig hijack that matters, the orginal and only member of the hijack squad. me. -Eris. ps Black russians are better then beer.
I'll see your beer, and raise you a goat kebab -Tirg
I'll take that pint and raise you two -Timmeh
I bet 2 goats, 1 pint and a bag of slugs -Lordharold
I grab it all, cook it/eat and drink it all and say thank you. -Pirlouit
I'll call your bluff, and go all in on 3 locks of Hutch's hair. -Incognus
I'll see that bet, depending on where the hair came from. -Rauth
*pushes the other mods out of the way* Mmmm, bree - Karass
Bree & goat kebabs!!! I'm in!! - Yips
IT WAS ME, MUHAHAHA. -Hango
How did I miss free BREE!!? -Kaemonn
always fashionably late  - Deckard
Better late than never! -Sahwoolo |
Icy Manipulat0r
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Anhtarus
Here is a thought,
What if.... a 'wormhole' suddenly opened up between Tranquility and Serenity?
Woah....
Can we say MASSIVE war???
Too bad it would be such an unbalanced missmatch considering Tranquility servers have players who can fly dreads and the super caps, whilst Serenity players don;t have the skills to fly dreads.
What CCP could have done is created Serenity as a completely different 'race' of players with different ship classes, weapons and looks. heck, the chinese players already read in chinese characters already so their GUI would appear 'alien' to most Tranq players anyway. Serenity would appear 'alien' to Tranq players who can't read chinese, and the Chinese players would have the same problem. coming to 'our' world.
That would have been quite interesting don't ya agree?
I can say this has got to be the worst idea I have ever heard in my entire life. Normally I would not say anything and let it go but I feel that I cant stress enough the impact that sweat shop isk farmers ALREADY have on TQ. If your so called wormhole were to come into play consider the future and current potential of EvE permanently soiled. I would cry for sure....then leave. Also I would "give all my stuff" to chribba. :)
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Omega Man
The Geddy Foundation
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:54:00 -
[45]
i thought this was the Asian server.
-
Happy user of CAOD troll cleaner
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=584345 |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:56:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Omega Man
i thought this was the Asian server.
 5/10 for effort
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[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Calprimus
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:57:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 30/09/2007 06:23:35
Originally by: Kessiaan
Eve will never be huge anywhere.
I beg to differ.
EVE has the potential to become the largest MMO on the planet eventually.
In no small part, due to the fact it's constantly evolving instead of releasing completely new versions.
There will never be a separate "EVE II : EverStuff", we're already at "EVE 7.2.3" and "EVE 8.0.0" is coming up in a month or two.
Contrary to most other MMOs, in its entire lifetime it has seen constant rising numbers of subscribers, with a relatively steady growth and significant spikes on new expansions (partially due to returning players, partially due to advertising).
The new graphics engine and also ambulation has the potential to almost double the number of players until this time next year, if it's as good as advertised.
EVE doesn't have a real competitor in the MMORPG SCI-FI segment.
That's why they increased their number from the original 4-6K average online players.
If there was a valid alternative, most probably EVE would go back to the original figure.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 10:59:00 -
[48]
Err, you're forgetting "Anarchy Online" and "Star Wars Galaxies" in the MMORPG department.
Not that they're doing too good, but they exist. And I might be forgetting some myself.
But since EVE is more of a hybrid between a MMORTS and a MMOMTG, you could say it's quite... unique.
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[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.09.30 11:46:00 -
[49]
Are there any Matari freedom fighters on the China server? whats the RP scene like?
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Chai N'Dorr
Rumrunner Logistics
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Posted - 2007.09.30 11:47:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Chai N''Dorr on 30/09/2007 11:48:18
Oh no, the sky is falling! 'Only 3k users online...'
Jeesh, I remember when that was a landmark and people celebrated. Back then folks also said Eve was dying and would be gone in a month, three months, within six months for sure and surely within a year.
Look where we are now.
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New sig pending... |
Spoon Thumb
Khanid Aerospace Group
Khanid Provincial Authority
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Posted - 2007.09.30 13:47:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Akita T
Since computational needs in a battlefield grid roughly grow by the order of (users_involved^2), there's no other way of ever doing it, given the current rate of technological developement.
You know you could just update everyone's positions etc every half second or so. Though then you'd be playing a turn based game with very very short turns
Khaldari
In-game channel: khanidpublic |
Mangold
Freelance Unincorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.09.30 13:57:00 -
[52]
Only thing that bothers me is that all recent changes incourage blobbing.
- blowing up facilities on stations? Check. You can't expect to do that without a considarble blob of BS or dreads.
- taking out cyno jammers? check. You need plenty to just kill the cyno jammer to make you able to bring in your own dreads.
- manned pos guns? Check. Instapop BS 4tl. You need a blob to kill the guns fast enough if you can't use dreads.
- cyno jammers? Check. Using your own caps to hit an hostile gate camp with carrier support? Nope. Not unless you have killed the cyno jammer.
The problem as I see it is that the server can't handle those blobs.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.09.30 15:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Akita T
Chinese people just don't "dig" the way EVE (this, EVE, the one and only true EVE) works.
It's too "western-minded".
Erm, I don't want to go into the depth here.
But how the heck can you throw all people living in china into one pot and say 'chinese people don't do that'! 
I am sure that CCP doesn't aim at all of china. It is a big country with lots of people. And I am 100% sure that you will find a lot of people there which are attracted by Eve and its concepts.
Probably it won't become mainstream, but that CCP never wanted, right? They want to make a great game, that is their first priority (well, except earning a living from it and not going bankrupt). And surely they are learning and adepting.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.30 15:45:00 -
[54]
HEY top of the page is for me 
1987.08.31 00:29:09 Combat Your Smooth Criminal perfectly strikes Annie, wrecking for A Crescendo. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.09.30 16:15:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Akita T
Since computational needs in a battlefield grid roughly grow by the order of (users_involved^2), there's no other way of ever doing it...
Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. It is like with raytracing and excellent looking graphics: for true raytracing you need huge amount of time, but that doesn't prevent people from using workarounds to create stunning graphics created magnitudes faster.
If you pray that the battlefield always needs n^2 like a mantra and don't research it, you will never get any better algorithms.
There will be improvements, there will be algorithms which have much better run-time and there will be workarounds. For example 'bounding boxes' around groups or switching adaptive turn-based combat (10 ms turns to start with, and if it becomes laggy increase the time by 50%, if there is no lag decrease it until you hit 10ms again) and and and
Actually Eve is on a good way. The fleet system has potential especially with the 'bounding box' approach. If you transmit only the data of the groups and the ships in your group instead of all ships you have a big improvement: 500 ships in 20 groups a 25 ships. You need then to tranmit only 20 group data plus 25 ship data (the ships in your own group) instead of data of 500 ships.
Or if the group approach doesn't work, make adaptive boxes in space. The further away something is, the less you will know about it, the less data you need. Ever seen the progress in computing fractals? Of course you can compute the whole thing point after point. Or you use adaptive boxes to speed up the progress by magnitues. Same with numerical simulations on the big number crunching super-computers. It's all a matter of research.
Surely that is future talk and I don't know if CCP will ever implement anything this to EVE but don't say that the battlefield algo can't be better than n^2 because that is ridiculously wrong.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 16:55:00 -
[56]
You never worked in computer programming that requires heavy algorithmic optimisation, have you ?
Thought so.
If nothing else, the mere communication data stream that has to be computed and sent to EACH of the clients, THAT ALONE increases linearly in size with number of objects in the grid (not only players).
And you can bet your ass that's not the only thing that needs to be computed.
And... I said "roughly" x^2.
Might be more, might be less.
Could eventually get optimized to be almost linear (think smallC*x^2+bigC*x+someC)... or probably not, and remain mostly bigC*x^2+smallC*x+someC.
Still that doesn't change the fact it's highly unlikely to EVER see a linear (i.e. c1*x+c2) computational power need for battles in EVE.
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Spacy Tracy
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:21:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Spacy Tracy on 30/09/2007 17:22:56
And I'm going to guess that you have never worked in the games industry. Understanding big O notation, does not a game programmer make - but it sure does make you sound plenty smart on the internets doesn't it?
There are plenty of conceivable ways around the inherent non-linear issues of network synchronization.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:36:00 -
[58]
All you get to do is reduce the constant next to x^2 relative to those next to x^1 and x^0 in terms of computational needs.
The constant next to x^2 can never possibly reach zero, just become small enough to not care (much) about.
As I said it's not JUST about communication and network infrastructure.
It's everything from gang health data and gang boost effects, individual ship stats, each and every activated module's effect at each module cycle, including individual weapons fired and damage dealing, missiles in flight or drones roaming around or engaging, collision detection between plenty of collidable entities in more or less close proximity, and the LEAST of your concerns is packaging all the relevant data you need to send to each of the individual clients.
Sure, you can cache the player skill and ship fit effects on module effectiveness, you can skip recalculating bonuses if module is on autorepeat, you only display squad and commander HP data (plus locked targets HP data) and so on and so forth, but there's still loads of other things that need to be constantly updated, some depening, others not depending on number of other players around.
You'd think the recent desynchronisation issues would be a dead giveaway of the fact SOME of their "shortcuts" taken to reduce workload have been... buggy, to use a mild term.
It's definetely not impossible to pull off some serious optimisations here, but they're not easy at all to do bug-free either.
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[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Spacy Tracy
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Posted - 2007.09.30 17:54:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Spacy Tracy on 30/09/2007 17:56:42
Blah blah blah. Look professor, I realize you probably just took CS 373 last semester and are positively bubbling over with brilliant insights about computational complexity, but you're wrong.
The trick here is to change the problem space. Don't try and solve the "complete" problem. Break it down into a gamey solution. Maybe send data less frequently for stuff farther away from you - hey look the amount of stuff further away from you increases with the cube of the distance in a sphere! Maybe that could affect your n^2 issue, hey? Or maybe do some sort of battle lod system where you break a 16k x 16k region up into a smaller grid and you send a block update approximating the data for everything in a cell instead of the full data for each individual ship.
The absolute worst thing you could do is stick with your viewpoint that the problem must be solved via brute force.
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Caios
Caldari
Unified Refining Federation
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.30 18:56:00 -
[60]
Serenity never should have happened in the first place. EVE was fine in China back when everyone would just go to TQ like the rest of the world (and cut the bull about government regulations on playing time, "democracy" references and other crap. TQ has always been and still is readily accessible). Instead, they they open up a local server that by all accounts has been a botch. Now, we've all got to choose between the "ghetto" server (might not be intended to be so, but sure seems that way at times) and going to TQ where anyone even remotely indicating they are Chinese is assumed to be a farmer and treated like **** accordingly. There's probably less legitimate Chinese players now than there was before serenity, and that's just sad.
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