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Battle-Recorder & Battle-Player Eve Online's fight record tool

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ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 13:52:00 - [1] I hope you guys like this idea, and it gets implimented! Similar to Battlefield 2, and Half-Life 2's Demo record feature, Eve Online should have a Battle-Recorder, so that you can just record detailed data on a ship fight, then edit, save and play it back at a later date, allowing you to Fraps it then, instead of in the middle of the fight, reducing lag and freeing up the amount of load your comp has to deal with. PVPrs in serious fights want high FPS, and low client-side lag, fast load-times and quick computers. Sometimes hard to do with a video recording program running in the background. The idea is the addition comes in two 'flavours' (I'm Irish, so it's spelled flavours ok?) The Battle-Recorder, and the Battle-Player. Features: BATTLE-RECORDER + The ability to pre-record camera tracks, for dynamic camera angles, pans & zooms. + Set camera views to any ship, and focus on any other ship, similar to what was already recently added to the EVE camera in-game. + Key-stroke and Mouse recording allowing user-controlled camera shots, and the option to exclude the mouse cursor and the in-game GUI from the final 'cut'. + Timeframe and key-stroke editor, allowing fine-tuned control on the where the camera is, doing what at any part of the timeline. + Snapshots, allowing those perfect Kodak moments to be captured. (Preferably in 24 bit Windows BMP format, or PNG's) BATTLE-PLAYER + Plays-back the previously recorded and saved battle, in full-screen or in windowed mode, perfect for anyone who doesn't want to Fraps at 1280 x 1024, and want to just capture a particular window.
Banduril Lazyloth Gallente Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.01 14:40:00 - [2] its called fraps
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:52:00 - [3] Lol I KNOW Fraps, duh, but I'm suggesting a much more powerful way of making movies with depth and character, not just your gui and a screen full of squares red or blue stars on em. Up close explosions, camera following torps as they slam into a Moros or something. Any fool can blow things up and Fraps it, it takes skill, time and thought to make a video of the scale that the Eve Online guys make themselves.
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:53:00 - [4] Edited by: ninjaholic on 01/10/2007 18:53:38 Watch this: http://myeve.eve-online.com/download/videos/Default.asp?a=download&vid=144 And get inspired ^^
Clansworth Point-Zero SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:39:00 - [5] Fraps has to be 'edited' real time, in that the camera movements have to be done at recording time. A true recorder would not record the video at all, but record the events/movements/actions, and save it to some sort of log file. This could then be used as a basis for much more robust video creating, as camera's could be positioned optimally, switched between locations, and generally kick the proverboal donkey. Prospector Class
Lou Takki	Posted - 2007.10.02 21:55:00 - [6] This could be implemented like what Halo 3 does, basically not recording any kind of video or such but instead recording "Game State" and then regenerating what happened using the game engine later. This results in extremely small file saves compared to what a video capture takes in terms of file size. However, you would have much more game state data to save than a Halo 3 file, due to grid size. I could see this being extremely difficult to implement if was not envisioned from the original design of the client itself. Lou Takki,
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.05 09:56:00 - [7] Exactly, just recording the state of each item on a timeframe, which you could then play-back, and make an amazing user-created video out of! PLEASE CCP!! I'd love to take some of the fleet ops I've seen and make them into dynamic and atmospheric videos for people to enjoy!
Schani Kratnorr Internal Revenue Service	Posted - 2007.10.05 13:44:00 - [8] Originally by: ninjaholic Exactly, just recording the state of each item on a timeframe, which you could then play-back, and make an amazing user-created video out of! Basically an extended "logging feature" reacording each visible objects type, direction of travel and speed, plus some details on animation and weapons fire should do it. Once recorded, using the engine itself to "play" it back should simplify the job of the "cameraman". I like the idea, and have suggested a similar concept a few years ago. SIGNED
Rysith	Posted - 2007.10.05 16:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Lou Takki However, you would have much more game state data to save than a Halo 3 file, due to grid size. I could see this being extremely difficult to implement if was not envisioned from the original design of the client itself. Whatever game state data there is, it's being sent to your client, which not only limits it to at most a few dozen Kb/sec, but it also means that it's already going to you. All CCP would need to do would be to provide something that captured that game state over time (probably by plugging into the client somewhere), and saved it for later viewing. Doesn't seem that difficult to implement to me.
Lea Re Dirty Labs	Posted - 2007.10.06 03:40:00 - [10] /signed

ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:19:00 - [11] Edited by: ninjaholic on 06/10/2007 23:21:01 \o/ ^^ (bump, kinda) More signatures plz! CCP, would this be possible? Without jeopardizing any kind of client security or making major modifications to the Eve client?
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:53:00 - [12] I was thinking of this exact same idea a while ago. However, coding a feature such as this would probably take more coding than ccp have going spare :P
lofty29 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.06 23:53:00 - [13] OMFG FLEETZ R 2 LAGGEH! LETS ADD A FEATURE WHICH MAEKS EVEN MOAR LAGZ!1! LOL! No. Also, it would remove alot of the skill in Frapsing well. --- Project Mayhem 2
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 00:56:00 - [14] Edited by: ninjaholic on 07/10/2007 00:57:16 Originally by: lofty29 OMFG FLEETZ R 2 LAGGEH! LETS ADD A FEATURE WHICH MAEKS EVEN MOAR LAGZ!1! LOL! It's hard to lag a server when you're not connected to Tranquility which you wouldn't need to be for this to work. ALL of the models and information is already on your computer when you installed it. You wouldn't even need to log in. Or be connected to the internet. And I'd prefer if you were going to argue against the usefulness of my idea, that you'd have the decency to speak English. This aint local in BoB space. These are the forums, and comprehension and grammar might be required. Originally by: lofty29 No. Deep. REAL deep Originally by: lofty29 Also, it would remove alot of the skill in Frapsing well. Now this is LOL material, skill in Fraps-ing? All I've seen is "F9 - Warp in - blow up - F9" material. Mostly in fast-forward. With bad music, and cheap captions, thrown together in Windows Media Encoder, and encoded using the Matroska codec. All this would do is massively increase the amount of skillfully Fraps'd videos. Might even open up an entirely new business in Eve Online, the role of a Director, to take other people's (lazy people or people without the skill or time to create it themselves) demo files, and make them into slick PvP videos. Maybe even Alliance propaganda videos. Your arguement is unsubstantiated to be honest.
Greme Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.10.07 11:31:00 - [15] Originally by: lofty29 OMFG FLEETZ R 2 LAGGEH! LETS ADD A FEATURE WHICH MAEKS EVEN MOAR LAGZ!1! LOL! Technically, the only person who would receive more lag is the one who is recording the "demo", though even whether said person receives more lag would be questionable. The demo recorder (as with all/most in other games) is a data recorder which is client side, and stores a client side log of game events (for example, in FPS games it stores the level, location of all objects and players, and events such as 'Dude1 shot dude2'). There should be no increase in load on the server AT ALL, and only a slight increase in lag on the part of the recorder (who's choice it is to use the demo recorder anyway). Oh, and to ninjaholic's comment about all eve videos being just 'Hit fraps with hud up and record'. Go take a look at some of the higher quality videos, such as those done by Loxyrider, Dire Lauthris etc. They are far, far from what you describe. I believe it wouldn't remove skill from frapsing, but simply increase the tools available for new shots. For example multiple views of the same encounter (you could splitscreen a battle from opposing sides and keep it timelocked), or acquisition of shots that you may not have even realised were there before (even well seasoned frapsers can miss that great shot of an inty sweeping through the battlefield as they simply could not see the inty). As I said before, I would welcome the idea, but I believe the amount of coding required to create such a feature would be horrendous, and I would have thought that CCP would have already implemented this if they deemed it possible and not counter-productive.
Presidente Gallente Pirate Hunters Inc Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:55:00 - [16] It would be great to record game data which is send between client and server. Like what we now from many other multiplayer games. It's ofc great if you can re-play a whole battle with the client, switch cameras, ships etc. But I think that the recording will just produce too much lag. CCP should give check that and they know if that makes technical sense or not. Pres G +++ JOIN PAP +++
Erim Solfara Amarr House of Solfara	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:57:00 - [17] Recording clientside would create next to no additional lag on top of network lag surely, after all, your client is recieving all the information about people and velocities etc ANYWAY, all it needs to do is write down each snapshot to the hard drive, and it'd be less data than a screenshot. I'm not pretending to be an expert, in practise it may be totally different, but an official opinion would be nice (not that we'll get on in features and ideas) A new tool in the fight for balance?
Solant Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.07 12:58:00 - [18] Originally by: ninjaholic Exactly, just recording the state of each item on a timeframe, which you could then play-back, and make an amazing user-created video out of! PLEASE CCP!! I'd love to take some of the fleet ops I've seen and make them into dynamic and atmospheric videos for people to enjoy! It's really not that simple. Unless you have coded your game to be built around something like this, it may be almost impossible to implement. I didn't write eve, but I'm fairly certain their current engine is not set up for this kind of recording.
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.07 17:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Solant It's really not that simple. Unless you have coded your game to be built around something like this, it may be almost impossible to implement. I didn't write eve, but I'm fairly certain their current engine is not set up for this kind of recording. Unfortunately you may be right. With all due respect I hope you're not ^^ I suppose all we can do is see what CCP has to say
Presidente Gallente Pirate Hunters Inc Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.10.08 11:52:00 - [20] Edited by: Presidente Gallente on 08/10/2007 11:55:50 Originally by: ninjaholic Edited by: ninjaholic on 07/10/2007 18:08:56 Originally by: Solant It's really not that simple. Unless you have coded your game to be built around something like this, it may be almost impossible to implement. I didn't write eve, but I'm fairly certain their current engine is not set up for this kind of recording. Unfortunately Solant you may be right. With all due respect I hope you're not ^^ I suppose all we can do is see what CCP has to say But do you think it's a good idea? And one that, if possible, would benefit the Eve Online community? IMO it's a great idea to record a script which will re-play the whole battle by the client app. I know such stuff from +simple games½ like SSX on XBOX. It's just worth to implement if that will not cause more lag to all. With such a feature you should be able to create awesome cuts. Probably it could be possible to playback smooth and perfect then?! You can eg. turn off all HUD graphics and create as an spectator in a +camera ship½ incredible pure and beautiful battle stuff if CCP would implement an export to some movie formats. FRAPS works fine so far but it's not really flexible. It's more like shooting in +documentary½ which works great in many cases. It creates tons of data you need to filter an organize. Doing PvP and beeing a creative DoP at the same time is totally stressful. Works good with missions but not in PvP. For bigger battles you better use some cloaked DoP's to record as much as they can more flexible. The more material you have the more interesting the movie cut will be. A re-play feature in EVE by the client app would be super-nice. I doubt that CCP will implement it if that affects too much server side performance. Pres G +++ JOIN PAP +++

Techkraft Amarr Chickens with an Attitude	Posted - 2007.10.08 12:19:00 - [21] A game I played years ago (RTCW-ET anyone ) on Clanbase, had that feature. You could replay anything your client could 'see'. So if you went on the map to a place you weren't at the time, you couldn't see it (cause the data wasn't I guess). Made great movies afterwards and people used each other recordings, so you could share the experience of the actual player with very small file sizes and different angles (a demo what we called it was something like 1 MB for 10 mins...). The best thing of this was that it greatly decreased lag compared to realtime frapsing (FPS of 100-300 depending on pc and map instead of 30). Could you imagine watching the yesterdays fleetbattle, by just downloading a few mb's? What we stand to loose are the players that make great real time fraps, but what we gain is more and better footage. I know players that do top noch PvP, but never record it cause of there pc's can't hack it real time. Would dramsticly increase the skill requierd to make a really cool vid (your whole fleets send you there demo, scouts send them, cynopilots standing by, heck even the enemy etc.). /signed!
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.28 18:58:00 - [22] Edited by: ninjaholic on 28/10/2007 19:01:37 I think it would really expand director's possibilities without having to fight and fraps at the same time. Instead: + Record + Fight + Fraps later on Need lots more people to sign, and get this stickied and to the attention of CCP. They themselves could benefit from this!! Come on guys!!!!
Charlie Chaplin	Posted - 2007.10.28 19:14:00 - [23] /signed
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 20:10:00 - [24] C'mon guys! Show your support!!
Adunh Slavy KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:07:00 - [25] Originally by: Erim Solfara Recording clientside would create next to no additional lag on top of network lag surely, after all, your client is recieving all the information about people and velocities etc ANYWAY, all it needs to do is write down each snapshot to the hard drive, and it'd be less data than a screenshot. There will be no additional lag if the client is written properly. Likely there is time stamp data with each client/server sync and the client buffers this data in a heap of some predetermined size. Providing another thread can read from this heap and buffer to another heap for purposes of ordering the data chunks by time stamp, and then subsequently write the copy buffer to disk, it should work well enough. The problem is how is data buffered now. Is the heap locked by a sync object, what kind of object, is this object used for other things - does this cause the potential for access violations and other nasty surprises. The Eve client is currently sorely lacking in threads and has some resource management leaks here and there, though much better about that now than it once was. It is not tough to do this sort of thing, the issue is how to do it and not break something, something that was never considered in the design. The OPs idea would be great if it could be done properly à /signed with reservations The Real Space Initiative
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 01:08:00 - [26] Edited by: ninjaholic on 03/11/2007 01:13:10 Edited by: ninjaholic on 03/11/2007 01:11:43 I'm actually surprised that this feature wasn't originally intended for implementation in the original client, as CCP could easily use this themselves for their own competitions and videos. I'm sure that if it was thought of, and attempted, then there must be a reason that it's not included in the final Eve version that we know, play, love and sometimes hate at present. And if it wasn't attempted? Well there are lots of parts to the Eve Online current client that I don't understand, and won't pretend that I'm going to in the short term, as my experience and understanding of how programs work is at best limited to nothing or less-than. However you make a good case Adunh Slavy. There must be somewhere for the data the client receives to go, and to enable writing of that cache of information to a file for later retrieval wouldn't kill the client, nor require any major core-code overhauls, seeing as it as to deal with that information anyway, the difference being that the information is just written to a file (on-demand of course) instead of [insert fate of cache here]. I'm STILL hoping that one of the programmers/code-monkeys spots this thread and takes the opportunity to explain it from the perspective of a person who stares at the bare bones of the client code on a daily basis, and would be willing (without disclosing too much technical information, or breaching copyright law/non-disclosure-agreement) give us a clearer picture of the possibility of having a battle-record tool in the client one day, and how that might work, without rewriting any of the core-code of the current client, creating a lag-free, powerful and useful tool for making those fleet operations into superb videos. Originally by: Adunh Slavy The problem is how is data buffered now. Is the heap locked by a sync object, what kind of object, is this object used for other things - does this cause the potential for access violations and other nasty surprises. Exactly what I was thinking. There must be something that CCP would rather not disclose, or open up, due to the possibility of a more insecure client. I'm sure that modified clients are already a problem, (as was mentioned in the ISK seller argument on a Dev Blod Podcast), and to allow write-caching of the current data might give the coders who created the modified clients a better understanding on how the client uses the data it collects. Allowing them more control over it, and a greater understanding on how to manipulate that data. Though, we could speculate this endlessly (or so I originally thought, it seems that many more people are beginning to think that this is clearly possible ...), the only people that would be able to clarify this are members of the coding team at CCP, and getting a member of the code-monkey staff, or similarly enlightened individual(s), to express their opinions on it here is proving much more difficult than I thought. I wouldn't be delighted, per se, if one of them came on and said: Quote: No! Impossible!! but at least it'd be some sort of closure. And I could then get over it, instead of being lazy and asking CCP to modify the client so that I, (though, many other people too) would have an easier time making videos than the Eve client currently allows ^^
lofty29 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.03 01:31:00 - [27] ... I don't remember writing that... wth? /signed --- Latest Video : FAT- Camp
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 02:14:00 - [28] lol!
Breal D'nie	Posted - 2007.11.03 02:50:00 - [29] Great idea! as for the program itself, to me its simple. it could be an external program that simply records all data transfered through the EVE Port (26000 i think). thats all it would do, therefore very little lag. essentially not interupting the data stream at all, and using very little cpu/ram as it wouldn't have any rendering to do, or sound to create. the recorder would autosave a new file with time/system/character stamp on it every time u jumped systems. after the battle is finished, you would open the recorder, load the time/system/character file you wanted. then the battle player/movie maker would then "emulate" the eve client, however instead of reading port 26000 it would then be recieving data from the recorder. in the emulation you would have control over all features from the op. Im not a tech by anymeans, but it seems relativly simple program to create, nearly all the major file work is there already. /signed
ninjaholic Gallente Burn the Jolly Roger Phoenix Rising Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 03:57:00 - [30] Thanks, that's what I'm hoping anyways ^^ I can see much fewer reasons why it won't work, than why it would!



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