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What is up with people these days??

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Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:10:00 - [1] I've been playing for almost 3 years and have had the opportunity to do a lot of things in this game. I've been an industrialist, pirate, fleet commander, and cannon fodder and have had some great success and great failure. IÆve met and played with some really cool people from all over the world. I've only used one character for most of that time because I wanted to experience the game from that perspective. I felt that it would force me to do things differently and give me a fuller experience of the game. I like games to be difficult and challenging, which is one of the things that attracted me to Eve in the first place. It's amazing to me how much the game has changed in the time I have been here and I can't imagine how much it has changed to those that have been playing since day one. When I started playing, Eve was still not for the faint of heart, and if you whined about something, people generally laughed at you because the game was just that way. It was hardcore and people just seemed to accept the harshness of it all. Like me, they liked the edginess and ôno wimps allowedö attitude of the game otherwise I guess we would have been playing WoW instead of Eve. Eve was Darwinism in a game. There were many things and people that were just bigger and badder and could squash you like a bug and they often did. You either struggled to find a way to survive and flourish or you died. Because you didn't have the isk or skills, you had to use your brain to overcome obstacles and compete with other pilots that had more of everything. When you did and you were successful, Eve was at its greatest and the satisfactions of those moments were what made the game great. It was good and satisfying that the playing field was not level. It made it more interesting. It seems however as more players have come to from other MMOÆs and the Eve population has dramatically grown, the differences between the ôearly adoptersö and todayÆs Eve player is becoming more evident. Today the forums are filled with whines about everything imaginable from people getting killed when they didnÆt expect it (oh the shock and horror) to the ubiquitous ôI canÆt do something someone else can do so it must be unfair whineö, insert whatever subject you fancy. A perfect example of this is the renewed speed whine. Speed has been nerfed numerous times already. The first couple of times it was needed but now? DonÆt think so. Players today feel that they are somehow ôentitledö to all sorts of things regardless of any skill differences, player experience differences, isk invested etc,. etc. More often than not, they give their whines respectability, by labeling them as ôbalanceö issues. We all want the game more ôbalancedö donÆt we? (Balance is the most over used and least understood word in describing game mechanics.) Where did these people come from? What game do they think they are playing? It seems however that CCP, in an effort to broaden its commercial appeal is slowly but relentlessly grinding away anything and all things that could be misconstrued as ôunpleasantö or ôunfairö. Whether itÆs ship modules, game mechanics, industry, mission running, pvp everything is nerfed for a more pleasurable gaming experience. And no, IÆm not talking about the really big needed nerfs like missiles. IÆm talking about this trend to water down the once hardcore game I knew and loved. Did CCP hire a bunch of people from Electronic Arts or Sony Entertainment or what?!? The Sovereignty situation has made 0.0 a stagnant quagmire, ships are increasingly ever more pigeon-holed into specific roles (I myself can find roles for many things and do not need the game mechanics to necessarily dictate to me what the role is thank you very much I have a brain). --------------
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:11:00 - [2] Edited by: Megadon on 04/10/2007 03:12:03 ...continued Basically, to me it seems CCP seems to be removing more and more of the challenges that made Eve Eve because the general population whines about it being unfair or too hard and I think itÆs a bad thing. I donÆt want to play Hello Kitty in space or WoW in space ships or BF2 in space where an Abrams tank is equal to a Russian T-72. I want asymmetric game play at its finest, I donÆt ôfairö, I want DARWIN. Just an opinion and a viewpoint, not necessarily 100% correct. What do you think? Good god that was a lot of text --------------
Jaikar Isillia Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:19:00 - [3] I don't understand.. you first attempt to construe some position of authority because of how long you have been playing the game. You then state how EVE is a harsh game and people whine and cry too much... Then you go and whine yourself?
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:19:00 - [4] Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/10/2007 03:20:30 Yeah, we been whining about this for a while too Edit I started this char with > 30K sp... I just made an alt for highsec "stuff" and it starts with 800K... WTF? Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking Originally by: CCP John Proctor Gates made from your nearest scrap yard can only be so space effecient
Sixtina KL	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:21:00 - [5] tl;dr: "The EA effect is on the rise." __________________________________
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:35:00 - [6] Originally by: Jaikar Isillia I don't understand.. you first attempt to construe some position of authority because of how long you have been playing the game. You then state how EVE is a harsh game and people whine and cry too much... Then you go and whine yourself? mmmm... try re-reading again. You missed the point. --------------
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.10.04 03:59:00 - [7] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/10/2007 03:20:30 Yeah, we been whining about this for a while too Edit I started this char with > 30K sp... I just made an alt for highsec "stuff" and it starts with 800K... WTF? Your alt is a very nice person and deserved that 800k starting sp. I have yet to meet your main though, so I'll keep an open mind. --- Join BH-DL
CowNoseTheCat	Posted - 2007.10.04 04:01:00 - [8] I agree. I'm a new player to EVE and I agree. When I said on my blog that I was going to start playing EVE I was flooded with comments saying that "I would never be anything in the game." and basically what these people where saying is that I can NOT get to "the top" because I joined the game too late. This, of course, just isn't true for a variety of reasons that I don't really need to get into here. The way I see it, these people that complained to me where freaking out and quit the game because they realized that "Oh my god no matter how much I play I will never have as many skill points as that person!" This is a huge blow to their epeen which I believe is at the heart of this issue. It's an attitude that these players carry over from their previous MMOs and something I was quick to see. So while this is an issue with the player base as a whole, there really is nothing we can do about it. As long as CCP doesn't pull a "NGE" (ala Star Wars Galaxies) and completely bork the game trying to appease to the whiners. I think CCP knows whats up and I have faith they will make the right decisions on this matter. However, I disagree that giving new players more skill points to start with etc is a bad thing. When I played Lineage 2 it seemed every expansion added more and more things to give new players a headstart. This wasn't so that the old players fancy skills and weapons would be less valued. It still takes a tremendous amount of time to get there. Rather it was to help n00bs get past the useless parts of the game and more quickly get into the real action. Lineage 2 gave free weapons for NG and D grade. A and S grade weapons are still crazy difficult to get (on my private server anyways) Lineage 2 let players under level 40 get faster HP regeneration that went away once they dinged 41. This didn't affect anything for high players, just lets people get past the crap. Look I know that you are whining because you feel the hard work you did could be just simply ignored and nerfed. It's a valid concern. But as EVE constantly pushes more and more into the future they will HAVE to let newbies catch up at least in some small way. It's not a huge issue right now because you can specialize in 1 ship and get PVP ready somewhat quickly. But as we get into tech 3 ships etc etc as the boundry keeps getting pushed due to the way the skill system works it will be harder and harder for n00bs to catch up. Don't get me wrong, I love EVEs skill system and I would not want to change it. But I'm very aware that this is a big problem for CCP, and a huge barrier for people to come and play the game. (** 2 people xfireing me and like 12 comments on my blog, that is a HUGE number of people if you compare that ratio to the amount of people that read my blog and never comment then apply that to all gamers) The 50 Pound Cat's MMO Adventures**<-- Click here to take a look at my MMO blog, thanks!
Larg Kellein Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.10.04 04:50:00 - [9] Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard. Originally by: Roy Batty68 My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
Galk Gallente Autumn Tactics All the things she said	Posted - 2007.10.04 05:30:00 - [10] I think your conceptions are wholey misplaced. Placing aside the 'harsh' issues, which are and can be entitrely negated by new users through 'buying in' aka timecode and character transfers, the objectives of your posts.. the people, im sorry but your picking up on entirely the wrong vibe. This forum/community is mostly full of knockers now, very little gets constructivley discussed, people iv'e known for years just won't post on these forums anymore due to the general hostility, and the lack of willingness by the modertors to bring a change to that.... something that even puts me off posting in the majority of threads on this board... iv'e no desire to post in threads thats allready been trolled with 'gtfo' or stfu.. or spammed with nonsense posts... by the same people doing it day in day out. A little short sighted your post imho... look at the reasons why all you see is 'whines' then read the above again. Very little constructive talk goes on here now..... you cleared out all the spammers/trolls from the forum, id imagine your conceptions would change overnight. ______
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.10.04 05:39:00 - [11] whining is bad playing is good trolling is fun! Can I have my stuff? Originally by: Akita T No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
Slazia Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.10.04 05:46:00 - [12] Originally by: Galk Very little constructive talk goes on here now..... you cleared out all the spammers/trolls from the forum, id imagine your conceptions would change overnight. The perfect example appears on time! Actually, new players already get advantages. They never will have the same skills points... Thats just the way it is, and I like that! I have about 1 year of active playtime on this account, and I know there are loads of people with far more skilll points. I dont fight them one to one (unless they are in a shuttle or something). New players get a lot of advantages, free ships and fittings via a corp, training, funding. They wont be in the best ships, but they can fill other roles.
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:00:00 - [13] Edited by: Megadon on 04/10/2007 06:02:01 Originally by: CowNoseTheCat However, I disagree that giving new players more skill points to start with etc is a bad thing. When I played Lineage 2 it seemed every expansion added more and more things to give new players a headstart. This wasn't so that the old players fancy skills and weapons would be less valued. It still takes a tremendous amount of time to get there. Rather it was to help n00bs get past the useless parts of the game and more quickly get into the real action. Look I know that you are whining because you feel the hard work you did could be just simply ignored and nerfed. It's a valid concern. But as EVE constantly pushes more and more into the future they will HAVE to let newbies catch up at least in some small way. It's not a huge issue right now because you can specialize in 1 ship and get PVP ready somewhat quickly. But as we get into tech 3 ships etc etc as the boundry keeps getting pushed due to the way the skill system works it will be harder and harder for n00bs to catch up. Oh don't get me wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with ppl getting a boost skillpoint wise to be able to get going in the game quick. That's a good thing. In addition, the massive price drops in implants allow ppl to ramp up quick and that's great. It's more of the the whole thing of ppl like you said whinig because they'll never get to the "top". Eve has no top really. No can get there. It's more about what you want to DO, which is why it's a great game. My thing is that more and more I hear ppl whining about mechanics of the game or lobbying on the forums to get something changed they feel is a imbalanced (hate that word) when in fact, game mechanics have little do to with it. They just don't have the brains and tactics to overcome something, or do not realize that someone has decided to spend billions on implants, mods and months of training to do something particularly well in the game. Whether its fly a particular ship a certain way, or to make isk a certain way. They just see it and suddenly it's "unfair". Fact is, if they were dedicated to it too, they could achieve it but they don't think about it that.. They just feel that it is imbalanced because it is so far above what they are currently capable of. A good example of this would be an interceptor pilot who decided 3 years ago that he would specialize in this and maxed out skills, collected implants, bought faction equipment to be the best at it. Someone playing a year comes along in his interceptor and sees how much better this person is than him and the next thing you know, there are threads all over the place calling for nerfs etc etc. --------------
Styre Blixtsnabb	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:03:00 - [14] I agree with you. I have only been here for 1 year but I understand and see the trend you are talking about. I really enjoyed EVE when I started my character. It was a hostile environment that didn't guarantee anything. One of the problems with internet gaming vs. real world is the instant gratification. This is how a lot of people become addicted to online games. Most games allow you to pretty much get what you want when you want it. If something goes wrong you turn off the game and walk away or start over. In real life you have to live with the consequences they don't go away. People like being able to walk away. When I started EVE I really felt like it was harsh like real life can be. You lose a ship and it doesnÆt come back, well most of the time (insurance FTW!). You really could dig yourself a hole that you couldn't easily climb out of. I think CCP's efforts to make an inviting game that is popular is leading them towards the trend of making things easily available. The people coming in from WoW and other MMO's want an environment that isn't so foreign from what they started with and CCP wants to cater slightly to them as well. EVE hasn't gotten easy yet but if this continues it could get uncomfortably close. I don't want to lose the game that is dark, cruel, and unforgiving that I started to play 1 year ago. Sorry If I sound like a sleep deprived idiot, becuase I am.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:04:00 - [15] Agree on alot of that
Megadon Caldari Deathshead Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:07:00 - [16] Originally by: Larg Kellein Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard. Idiot saturation levels are good for non-idiots in game. I just hope the idiots don't influence the game as much as they seem to. --------------
van Uber Caldari Loke Inc	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Larg Kellein Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard. QFT Take any community that grows above a certain number of individuals. Suddenly you will have a very vocal minority that could be mistaken for some sort of consensus. Belive me, even CounterStrike had a nice and enlightend community in its infancy.
Frug Zenithal Harvest 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 06:40:00 - [18] That is why angry forum warriors filled with internet hate spit venomous insults at the whiners on a daily basis. Just trying to help ease the trend. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles
Zeruella Khan	Posted - 2007.10.04 07:06:00 - [19] What is happening on the forums now is called "social engineering" and it works a bit too well. People unwilling to adapt to the game raise an uproar on the forums and the devs change the game to accomodate them. It is relatively easy and there is no risk or chance of blowback so it's always worth a try. This has lead to a number of unnececary nerfs, that have lead more and more people to try a bit of se themselves...
Ashaz Mindstar Technology YouWhat	Posted - 2007.10.04 07:20:00 - [20] I agree with the OP completely. Very well put. I think one of the problems is the wow crowd coming to eve after "completing" wow in less then a year, and then they're scared ***less when they realize that 1 year in eve means you're still a new guy. __________________________________ Gallente by birth. Amarr by choice.* iDrone
Dr Ming Mindworks	Posted - 2007.10.04 08:27:00 - [21] Most people want to be the star of the show, and most people lack imagination. It is a sad combination. What makes it tragic, is that unlike WoW, any pilot that uses their brain can add value to a gang. What can a level 10 character do to a level 70 in WoW? Nothing. What can a 1 week old newbie do to a character with millions upon millions of SP? Lots. Their failure is further compounded by the fact that so many of them simply lack the ability to understand that it isn't a race to fly the biggest and baddest ship out there. If your flying a Battleship with cruiser guns on it, your pure fail. If your flying a properly fitted cruiser or frigate in an intelligent manner, then you matter. I have hardly any combat SP on this character (Invention/Production monkey), and I'm super excited now that I'm training it for Caldari Ewar ships. In fact, I'm so excited about it that I'm actually sort of 'meh' about the fact that my combat character is finishing up Jump Drive Op V next week, which is my last big train needed for caps. That right there tells me a whole lot about this game. A pity that so many people don't get it.
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 08:43:00 - [22] Originally by: Zeruella Khan What is happening on the forums now is called "social engineering" and it works a bit too well. People unwilling to adapt to the game raise an uproar on the forums and the devs change the game to accomodate them. It is relatively easy and there is no risk or chance of blowback so it's always worth a try. This has lead to a number of unnececary nerfs, that have lead more and more people to try a bit of se themselves... yeah, posting with your alt about that will really make a difference. why does no one on the forums have balls these days? that would alleviate a whole lot of altwhining in the first place.... no more altposting. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Drenan	Posted - 2007.10.04 09:46:00 - [23] The problem here is that the OP wants the opposite of 'Darwinism' - Evolution is all about change and adapting to change, not (as many believe) 'the survival of the fittest'. Eve is never going to roll-back to being that 'special place' the early adopters enjoyed. I suggest that the so-called 'hardcore' dinosaurs of Eve accept this fact with grace...or leave. The open ended real-time skilling system is a ticking bomb that threatens the long term survival of Eve. If nothing changes can you imagine what it will be like in six years time for a new player coming into the game... knowing that they face 10 years of skill training to get to where the oldest players are...and worse...that during that 10 years the goalposts will just continue to move away from them?
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:06:00 - [24] I've been playing since mhmhmhmhm and let me tell you, the % of whine hasn't changed, it's the amount of people. It's dead simple. Back in the day, 5k people, 2 whines/week. Now, over 30k people, 12 whines/week. It has nothing to do with peopel, just numbers. The whining has ALWAYS been here and always will. People have this weird conception that in the 2003-4 era, everyone was holding hands, no fighting, skipping through the universe and singing happy tunes. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Auron Shadowbane Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:06:00 - [25] I feel your pain, although I'm still "young" compared to you. But on the other hand you aren't helpless. Your skills and ships and isk won't help you with this but nothing stops you from doing the eve-endgame called "metagaming" or "social engineering". If they want to get you nerved after you killed them a thousand thousend times ingame add insult to injury and pwn them on the forums too. Otherwise you could also adapt and invent more cruel ways to kill, loopholes to use and whatnot. Eve is growing in posibilities for "overpoweredness" with every expansion. Devs are adding hard things faster than the crowd gets them nerved. and THAT is the final reason why beeing an old-timer is worth something over a newb. If a new super-combo hits the server people who already have the skills can enjoy it for the 2-12 months it takes for a nerv but a newb would need multiple months to train for it, missing out on most of the fun.
AeonOfTime Minmatar Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:08:00 - [26] Megadon, I have started playing with Red Moon Rising, so I am still a new player by many standards. I understand your point though, as in that short time a lot has changed in EVE through the bulk of new players that have joined. So far it has not affected my enjoyment of the game, EVE has enough levels of play to accomodate for everyone's needs. The real issue as I understand it is that a big chunk of this new population is overwhelmed by EVE's complexity and goes straight to the forums - basically to cry "balancing!" because they don't want to make any efforts. We live in a society that does not exactly promote patience, so it is understandable that new players are dismayed by the fact that they "will not get anywhere" anytime soon. I had trouble accepting it too at first, but have come to enjoy it. The thing that new players have to undertstand better - and there probably is a lack in communication here - is that they will need the time it takes to skill up to actually learn the game. Personally it took me a year to find my way around and get the skills to both do some decent mining in a Hulk as well as level 3 missioning in a battleship. A new player that goes straight for an interceptor will probably not have learned enough about game mechanics to know what difference faction gear can make when he encounters a seasoned pilot and gets his pod handed back to him. If someone had given me a battleship on day one or even a week after, it would have spoiled everything. I did not join any corporations on purpose because I wanted to succeed on my own. Granted, that may not be the most common case but it gave me an approach to the game that made me enjoy the year I spent so far. As a conclusion, I think new players have to be taught better what they can reasonably expect within the first days / weeks / months. It won't stop the whiners, but may bring down their numbers somewhat... -- Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com

CCP Wrangler	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:08:00 - [27] Originally by: Megadon Did CCP hire a bunch of people from Electronic Arts or Sony Entertainment or what?!? Blasphemer!! No, actually we tend to hire EVE players, and CCP is fairly well spread out between the different playstyles. Wrangler Community Manager EVE Online Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ

Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:12:00 - [28] Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 10:13:28 Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 10:13:11 Very well written OP. Earlier you had to pay for your mistakes. stacking penalty, hitpoint boost, nos nerf FTL. Originally by: AeonOfTime Megadon, I have started playing with Red Moon Rising thats when it all changed imo. amarr became useless and it also was a big nerf to solo pvp. It also boosted blob warfare. Call to arms!!!
Cutie Chaser Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:44:00 - [29] If EVE was just as much of a PITA to play as it was all these years ago you'd still only have those early adopters playing, and that would be it. MMO's evolve, and the people playing it can as well. Some manage it better then other of course, and those who can not go find a different game to play. *** Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Kel'dar Drax	Posted - 2007.10.04 10:44:00 - [30] Originally by: Death Kill Quote: ...thats when it all changed imo. amarr became useless... I am a new player,but surely CCP Wrangler would not have sat back and allowed the devs to nerf an entire race (for so long a time) without something being done to restore the balance? Please reassure me that the great Amarr race and their fine ships are not really nerfed at all, but if they are...why was this done and why has nothing been done about it?

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