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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:10:00 -
[1]
I've been playing for almost 3 years and have had the opportunity to do a lot of things in this game. I've been an industrialist, pirate, fleet commander, and cannon fodder and have had some great success and great failure. IÆve met and played with some really cool people from all over the world.
I've only used one character for most of that time because I wanted to experience the game from that perspective. I felt that it would force me to do things differently and give me a fuller experience of the game. I like games to be difficult and challenging, which is one of the things that attracted me to Eve in the first place.
It's amazing to me how much the game has changed in the time I have been here and I can't imagine how much it has changed to those that have been playing since day one. When I started playing, Eve was still not for the faint of heart, and if you whined about something, people generally laughed at you because the game was just that way. It was hardcore and people just seemed to accept the harshness of it all. Like me, they liked the edginess and ôno wimps allowedö attitude of the game otherwise I guess we would have been playing WoW instead of Eve.
Eve was Darwinism in a game. There were many things and people that were just bigger and badder and could squash you like a bug and they often did. You either struggled to find a way to survive and flourish or you died. Because you didn't have the isk or skills, you had to use your brain to overcome obstacles and compete with other pilots that had more of everything. When you did and you were successful, Eve was at its greatest and the satisfactions of those moments were what made the game great. It was good and satisfying that the playing field was not level. It made it more interesting.
It seems however as more players have come to from other MMOÆs and the Eve population has dramatically grown, the differences between the ôearly adoptersö and todayÆs Eve player is becoming more evident. Today the forums are filled with whines about everything imaginable from people getting killed when they didnÆt expect it (oh the shock and horror) to the ubiquitous ôI canÆt do something someone else can do so it must be unfair whineö, insert whatever subject you fancy. A perfect example of this is the renewed speed whine. Speed has been nerfed numerous times already. The first couple of times it was needed but now? DonÆt think so.
Players today feel that they are somehow ôentitledö to all sorts of things regardless of any skill differences, player experience differences, isk invested etc,. etc. More often than not, they give their whines respectability, by labeling them as ôbalanceö issues. We all want the game more ôbalancedö donÆt we? (Balance is the most over used and least understood word in describing game mechanics.)
Where did these people come from? What game do they think they are playing? It seems however that CCP, in an effort to broaden its commercial appeal is slowly but relentlessly grinding away anything and all things that could be misconstrued as ôunpleasantö or ôunfairö. Whether itÆs ship modules, game mechanics, industry, mission running, pvp everything is nerfed for a more pleasurable gaming experience. And no, IÆm not talking about the really big needed nerfs like missiles. IÆm talking about this trend to water down the once hardcore game I knew and loved.
Did CCP hire a bunch of people from Electronic Arts or Sony Entertainment or what?!? The Sovereignty situation has made 0.0 a stagnant quagmire, ships are increasingly ever more pigeon-holed into specific roles (I myself can find roles for many things and do not need the game mechanics to necessarily dictate to me what the role is thank you very much I have a brain).
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:11:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Megadon on 04/10/2007 03:12:03
...continued
Basically, to me it seems CCP seems to be removing more and more of the challenges that made Eve Eve because the general population whines about it being unfair or too hard and I think itÆs a bad thing. I donÆt want to play Hello Kitty in space or WoW in space ships or BF2 in space where an Abrams tank is equal to a Russian T-72. I want asymmetric game play at its finest, I donÆt ôfairö, I want DARWIN.
Just an opinion and a viewpoint, not necessarily 100% correct. What do you think?
Good god that was a lot of text
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Jaikar Isillia
Blue Labs
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:19:00 -
[3]
I don't understand.. you first attempt to construe some position of authority because of how long you have been playing the game. You then state how EVE is a harsh game and people whine and cry too much... Then you go and whine yourself?
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:19:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/10/2007 03:20:30
Yeah, we been whining about this for a while too 
*Edit* I started this char with > 30K sp... I just made an alt for highsec "stuff" and it starts with 800K... WTF? 
 Originally by: Liz Kali
Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking
Originally by: CCP John Proctor
Gates made from your nearest scrap yard can only be so space effecient
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Sixtina KL
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:21:00 -
[5]
tl;dr: "The EA effect is on the rise."
__________________________________
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jaikar Isillia
I don't understand.. you first attempt to construe some position of authority because of how long you have been playing the game. You then state how EVE is a harsh game and people whine and cry too much... Then you go and whine yourself?
mmmm... try re-reading again. You missed the point.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.04 03:59:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny
Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/10/2007 03:20:30
Yeah, we been whining about this for a while too
*Edit* I started this char with > 30K sp... I just made an alt for highsec "stuff" and it starts with 800K... WTF?
Your alt is a very nice person and deserved that 800k starting sp. I have yet to meet your main though, so I'll keep an open mind. 
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Join BH-DL |
CowNoseTheCat
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Posted - 2007.10.04 04:01:00 -
[8]
I agree. I'm a new player to EVE and I agree. When I said on my blog that I was going to start playing EVE I was flooded with comments saying that "I would never be anything in the game." and basically what these people where saying is that I can NOT get to "the top" because I joined the game too late.
This, of course, just isn't true for a variety of reasons that I don't really need to get into here.
The way I see it, these people that complained to me where freaking out and quit the game because they realized that "Oh my god no matter how much I play I will never have as many skill points as that person!" This is a huge blow to their epeen which I believe is at the heart of this issue. It's an attitude that these players carry over from their previous MMOs and something I was quick to see.
So while this is an issue with the player base as a whole, there really is nothing we can do about it. As long as CCP doesn't pull a "NGE" (ala Star Wars Galaxies) and completely bork the game trying to appease to the whiners. I think CCP knows whats up and I have faith they will make the right decisions on this matter.
However, I disagree that giving new players more skill points to start with etc is a bad thing. When I played Lineage 2 it seemed every expansion added more and more things to give new players a headstart. This wasn't so that the old players fancy skills and weapons would be less valued. It still takes a tremendous amount of time to get there. Rather it was to help n00bs get past the useless parts of the game and more quickly get into the real action.
Lineage 2 gave free weapons for NG and D grade. A and S grade weapons are still crazy difficult to get (on my private server anyways)
Lineage 2 let players under level 40 get faster HP regeneration that went away once they dinged 41. This didn't affect anything for high players, just lets people get past the crap.
Look I know that you are whining because you feel the hard work you did could be just simply ignored and nerfed. It's a valid concern. But as EVE constantly pushes more and more into the future they will HAVE to let newbies catch up at least in some small way. It's not a huge issue right now because you can specialize in 1 ship and get PVP ready somewhat quickly. But as we get into tech 3 ships etc etc as the boundry keeps getting pushed due to the way the skill system works it will be harder and harder for n00bs to catch up.
Don't get me wrong, I love EVEs skill system and I would not want to change it. But I'm very aware that this is a big problem for CCP, and a huge barrier for people to come and play the game. (**** 2 people xfireing me and like 12 comments on my blog, that is a HUGE number of people if you compare that ratio to the amount of people that read my blog and never comment then apply that to all gamers)
The 50 Pound Cat's MMO Adventures<-- Click here to take a look at my MMO blog, thanks! |
Larg Kellein
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.04 04:50:00 -
[9]
Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard.
Originally by: Roy Batty68
My software has wronged me!!! And it's immediately "sorry". Well, ok then. I suppose I'm not so upset at my software if it appologizes.
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Galk
Gallente
Autumn Tactics
All the things she said
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Posted - 2007.10.04 05:30:00 -
[10]
I think your conceptions are wholey misplaced.
Placing aside the 'harsh' issues, which are and can be entitrely negated by new users through 'buying in' aka timecode and character transfers, the objectives of your posts.. the people, im sorry but your picking up on entirely the wrong vibe.
This forum/community is mostly full of knockers now, very little gets constructivley discussed, people iv'e known for years just won't post on these forums anymore due to the general hostility, and the lack of willingness by the modertors to bring a change to that.... something that even puts me off posting in the majority of threads on this board... iv'e no desire to post in threads thats allready been trolled with 'gtfo' or stfu.. or spammed with nonsense posts... by the same people doing it day in day out.
A little short sighted your post imho... look at the reasons why all you see is 'whines' then read the above again.
Very little constructive talk goes on here now..... you cleared out all the spammers/trolls from the forum, id imagine your conceptions would change overnight.
______
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar
Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.04 05:39:00 -
[11]
whining is bad
playing is good
trolling is fun!
Can I have my stuff?
Originally by: Akita T
No, it's a trap ! I can tell from some of the modules and from seeing quite a few traps in my time...
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Slazia
Minmatar
Masuat'aa Matari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 05:46:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Galk
Very little constructive talk goes on here now..... you cleared out all the spammers/trolls from the forum, id imagine your conceptions would change overnight.
The perfect example appears on time!
Actually, new players already get advantages. They never will have the same skills points... Thats just the way it is, and I like that! I have about 1 year of active playtime on this account, and I know there are loads of people with far more skilll points. I dont fight them one to one (unless they are in a shuttle or something).
New players get a lot of advantages, free ships and fittings via a corp, training, funding. They wont be in the best ships, but they can fill other roles.
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:00:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Megadon on 04/10/2007 06:02:01
Originally by: CowNoseTheCat
However, I disagree that giving new players more skill points to start with etc is a bad thing. When I played Lineage 2 it seemed every expansion added more and more things to give new players a headstart. This wasn't so that the old players fancy skills and weapons would be less valued. It still takes a tremendous amount of time to get there. Rather it was to help n00bs get past the useless parts of the game and more quickly get into the real action.
Look I know that you are whining because you feel the hard work you did could be just simply ignored and nerfed. It's a valid concern. But as EVE constantly pushes more and more into the future they will HAVE to let newbies catch up at least in some small way. It's not a huge issue right now because you can specialize in 1 ship and get PVP ready somewhat quickly. But as we get into tech 3 ships etc etc as the boundry keeps getting pushed due to the way the skill system works it will be harder and harder for n00bs to catch up.
Oh don't get me wrong. I have no problem whatsoever with ppl getting a boost skillpoint wise to be able to get going in the game quick. That's a good thing. In addition, the massive price drops in implants allow ppl to ramp up quick and that's great. It's more of the the whole thing of ppl like you said whinig because they'll never get to the "top". Eve has no top really. No can get there. It's more about what you want to DO, which is why it's a great game.
My thing is that more and more I hear ppl whining about mechanics of the game or lobbying on the forums to get something changed they feel is a imbalanced (hate that word) when in fact, game mechanics have little do to with it.
They just don't have the brains and tactics to overcome something, or do not realize that someone has decided to spend billions on implants, mods and months of training to do something particularly well in the game. Whether its fly a particular ship a certain way, or to make isk a certain way. They just see it and suddenly it's "unfair".
Fact is, if they were dedicated to it too, they could achieve it but they don't think about it that.. They just feel that it is imbalanced because it is so far above what they are currently capable of.
A good example of this would be an interceptor pilot who decided 3 years ago that he would specialize in this and maxed out skills, collected implants, bought faction equipment to be the best at it. Someone playing a year comes along in his interceptor and sees how much better this person is than him and the next thing you know, there are threads all over the place calling for nerfs etc etc.
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Styre Blixtsnabb
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:03:00 -
[14]
I agree with you. I have only been here for 1 year but I understand and see the trend
you are talking about. I really enjoyed EVE when I started my character. It was a
hostile environment that didn't guarantee anything.
One of the problems with internet gaming vs. real world is the instant gratification.
This is how a lot of people become addicted to online games. Most games allow you to pretty much get what you want when you want it. If something goes wrong you turn off
the game and walk away or start over. In real life you have to live with the
consequences they don't go away. People like being able to walk away. When I started EVE I really felt like it was harsh like real life can be. You lose a ship
and it doesnÆt come back, well most of the time (insurance FTW!). You really could dig yourself a hole that you couldn't easily climb out of.
I think CCP's efforts to make an inviting game that is popular is leading them
towards the trend of making things easily available. The people coming in from WoW
and other MMO's want an environment that isn't so foreign from what they started
with and CCP wants to cater slightly to them as well. EVE hasn't gotten easy yet
but if this continues it could get uncomfortably close. I don't want to lose the game that is dark, cruel, and unforgiving that I started to play 1 year ago.
Sorry If I sound like a sleep deprived idiot, becuase I am.
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fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:04:00 -
[15]
Agree on alot of that
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Larg Kellein
Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard.
Idiot saturation levels are good for non-idiots in game. I just hope the idiots don't influence the game as much as they seem to.
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van Uber
Caldari
Loke Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:31:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Larg Kellein
Don't think the increased whining is so much from changes to the game as it is from the fact that more people are playing not just EVE, but online in general. With the percentage of idiots in the world being relatively stable, when you get more people, you get more idiots. And they tend to make themselves heard.
QFT
Take any community that grows above a certain number of individuals. Suddenly you will have a very vocal minority that could be mistaken for some sort of consensus. Belive me, even CounterStrike had a nice and enlightend community in its infancy.
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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 06:40:00 -
[18]
That is why angry forum warriors filled with internet hate spit venomous insults at the whiners on a daily basis. Just trying to help ease the trend.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - -
If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO
BOOO!! - Ductoris
Neat look what I found - Kreul
Hey, my marbles |
Zeruella Khan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 07:06:00 -
[19]
What is happening on the forums now is called "social engineering" and it works a bit too well. People unwilling to adapt to the game raise an uproar on the forums and the devs change the game to accomodate them. It is relatively easy and there is no risk or chance of blowback so it's always worth a try. This has lead to a number of unnececary nerfs, that have lead more and more people to try a bit of se themselves... |
Ashaz
Mindstar Technology
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.04 07:20:00 -
[20]
I agree with the OP completely.
Very well put.
I think one of the problems is the wow crowd coming to eve after "completing" wow in less then a year, and then they're scared ****less when they realize that 1 year in eve means you're still a new guy.
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Gallente by birth. Amarr by choice.
iDrone |
Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2007.10.04 08:27:00 -
[21]
Most people want to be the star of the show, and most people lack imagination. It is a sad combination.
What makes it tragic, is that unlike WoW, any pilot that uses their brain can add value to a gang.
What can a level 10 character do to a level 70 in WoW? Nothing.
What can a 1 week old newbie do to a character with millions upon millions of SP? Lots.
Their failure is further compounded by the fact that so many of them simply lack the ability to understand that it isn't a race to fly the biggest and baddest ship out there. If your flying a Battleship with cruiser guns on it, your pure fail. If your flying a properly fitted cruiser or frigate in an intelligent manner, then you matter.
I have hardly any combat SP on this character (Invention/Production monkey), and I'm super excited now that I'm training it for Caldari Ewar ships. In fact, I'm so excited about it that I'm actually sort of 'meh' about the fact that my combat character is finishing up Jump Drive Op V next week, which is my last big train needed for caps.
That right there tells me a whole lot about this game. A pity that so many people don't get it.
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Cornucopian
Gallente
Orias Fringe Enterprises
United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 08:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Zeruella Khan
What is happening on the forums now is called "social engineering" and it works a bit too well. People unwilling to adapt to the game raise an uproar on the forums and the devs change the game to accomodate them. It is relatively easy and there is no risk or chance of blowback so it's always worth a try. This has lead to a number of unnececary nerfs, that have lead more and more people to try a bit of se themselves...
yeah, posting with your alt about that will really make a difference. why does no one on the forums have balls these days? that would alleviate a whole lot of altwhining in the first place.... no more altposting.
-----------------------------------------------
"post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Drenan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 09:46:00 -
[23]
The problem here is that the OP wants the opposite of 'Darwinism' - Evolution is all about change and adapting to change, not (as many believe) 'the survival of the fittest'.
Eve is never going to roll-back to being that 'special place' the early adopters enjoyed.
I suggest that the so-called 'hardcore' dinosaurs of Eve accept this fact with grace...or leave.
The open ended real-time skilling system is a ticking bomb that threatens the long term survival of Eve.
If nothing changes can you imagine what it will be like in six years time for a new player coming into the game... knowing that they face 10 years of skill training to get to where the oldest players are...and worse...that during that 10 years the goalposts will just continue to move away from them?
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:06:00 -
[24]
I've been playing since mhmhmhmhm and let me tell you, the % of whine hasn't changed, it's the amount of people.
It's dead simple.
Back in the day, 5k people, 2 whines/week.
Now, over 30k people, 12 whines/week.
It has nothing to do with peopel, just numbers. The whining has ALWAYS been here and always will.
People have this weird conception that in the 2003-4 era, everyone was holding hands, no fighting, skipping through the universe and singing happy tunes.
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Auron Shadowbane
Teeth Of The Hydra
R i s e
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:06:00 -
[25]
I feel your pain, although I'm still "young" compared to you.
But on the other hand you aren't helpless. Your skills and ships and isk won't help you with this but nothing stops you from doing the eve-endgame called "metagaming" or "social engineering".
If they want to get you nerved after you killed them a thousand thousend times ingame add insult to injury and pwn them on the forums too.
Otherwise you could also adapt and invent more cruel ways to kill, loopholes to use and whatnot. Eve is growing in posibilities for "overpoweredness" with every expansion. Devs are adding hard things faster than the crowd gets them nerved.
and THAT is the final reason why beeing an old-timer is worth something over a newb. If a new super-combo hits the server people who already have the skills can enjoy it for the 2-12 months it takes for a nerv but a newb would need multiple months to train for it, missing out on most of the fun.
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AeonOfTime
Minmatar
Syrkos Technologies
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:08:00 -
[26]
Megadon, I have started playing with Red Moon Rising, so I am still a new player by many standards. I understand your point though, as in that short time a lot has changed in EVE through the bulk of new players that have joined. So far it has not affected my enjoyment of the game, EVE has enough levels of play to accomodate for everyone's needs.
The real issue as I understand it is that a big chunk of this new population is overwhelmed by EVE's complexity and goes straight to the forums - basically to cry "balancing!" because they don't want to make any efforts.
We live in a society that does not exactly promote patience, so it is understandable that new players are dismayed by the fact that they "will not get anywhere" anytime soon. I had trouble accepting it too at first, but have come to enjoy it.
The thing that new players have to undertstand better - and there probably is a lack in communication here - is that they will need the time it takes to skill up to actually learn the game. Personally it took me a year to find my way around and get the skills to both do some decent mining in a Hulk as well as level 3 missioning in a battleship.
A new player that goes straight for an interceptor will probably not have learned enough about game mechanics to know what difference faction gear can make when he encounters a seasoned pilot and gets his pod handed back to him.
If someone had given me a battleship on day one or even a week after, it would have spoiled everything. I did not join any corporations on purpose because I wanted to succeed on my own. Granted, that may not be the most common case but it gave me an approach to the game that made me enjoy the year I spent so far.
As a conclusion, I think new players have to be taught better what they can reasonably expect within the first days / weeks / months. It won't stop the whiners, but may bring down their numbers somewhat...
--
Read the captain's log at eve.aeonoftime.com
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CCP Wrangler
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:08:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Megadon
Did CCP hire a bunch of people from Electronic Arts or Sony Entertainment or what?!?
Blasphemer!! 
No, actually we tend to hire EVE players, and CCP is fairly well spread out between the different playstyles.
Wrangler
Community Manager
EVE Online
Contact Support - Contact Moderators - Report Bug - Submit News Leads - Knowledge Base
Player Guide - Policies - Join ISD - Fan Submissions - DevFinder LiteÖ |
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 10:13:28
Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 10:13:11
Very well written OP. Earlier you had to pay for your mistakes.
stacking penalty, hitpoint boost, nos nerf FTL.
Originally by: AeonOfTime
Megadon, I have started playing with Red Moon Rising
thats when it all changed imo. amarr became useless and it also was a big nerf to solo pvp.
It also boosted blob warfare.
Call to arms!!! |
Cutie Chaser
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:44:00 -
[29]
If EVE was just as much of a PITA to play as it was all these years ago you'd still only have those early adopters playing, and that would be it.
MMO's evolve, and the people playing it can as well. Some manage it better then other of course, and those who can not go find a different game to play.
***
Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers. |
Kel'dar Drax
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:44:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Death Kill
Quote:
...thats when it all changed imo. amarr became useless...
I am a new player,but surely CCP Wrangler would not have sat back and allowed the devs to nerf an entire race (for so long a time) without something being done to restore the balance?
Please reassure me that the great Amarr race and their fine ships are not really nerfed at all, but if they are...why was this done and why has nothing been done about it?
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Roy Batty68
Caldari
Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:50:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Galk
people iv'e known for years just won't post on these forums anymore
I think alot of the older vets have become a bit too snobbish and disdainful of what the forums have become. I think they have allowed it to become so by not actively putting the newer trolls in their place. I think if they really cared for the game, they would actively defend it.
You might respond with, "Well its the mods that should be doing this". And you'd be half right. It is, however, quite possible to rabble-rabble the game in a direction most older players would cringe at without attracting the attention of a mod.
To put it more succintly:
The "Spirit" of Eve is not being passed on very well to newer players. Who's it going to come from if not those early adopters? It's not the mods place to do it.
So I find it a bit ironic whenever an old vet posts something like, "I don't post much anymore, but what the hell is up with players today?"
However, to be fair, I also blame the somewhat antiquated forum rules that often end up permanently silencing some of Eve's longtime community voices that could, at one time, sway popular opinion.
Originally by: Big Al
Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:52:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Drenan
Edited by: Drenan on 04/10/2007 09:57:59
The open ended real-time skilling system is a ticking bomb that threatens the long term survival of Eve.
If nothing changes can you imagine what it will be like in six years time for a new player coming into the game... knowing that they face 10 years of skill training to get to where the oldest players are...and worse...that during those 10 years the goalposts will just continue to move away from them?
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
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Drenan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:57:00 -
[33]
Quote:
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
Oh I think I do...but feel free to 'enlighten' me. 
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Nicholai Pestot
Gallente
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.04 10:58:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Nicholai Pestot on 04/10/2007 10:58:36
Originally by: Roy Batty68
However, to be fair, I also blame the somewhat antiquated forum rules that often end up permanently silencing some of Eve's longtime community voices that could, at one time, sway popular opinion.
Indeed.
I won't discuss the specifics of moderation, but with the current system and the sometimes (ahem) fuzzy interpretation of the rules by mods it is very difficult for anyone to be an active participant in these forums without eventually racking up a perma ban.
People who value their ability to post on these forums (and the value of that ability is shrinking every day) tend to restrict themselves to debating its mechanics in forums like SHC.
You do tend to find a better class of discussion in these fan forums....barring the occasional poll on if Vando's Fail is stronger than Derek's Epic
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Drykor
Minmatar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:00:00 -
[35]
I don't think the SP gap is such a huge problem. I have a nice skillplan in Evemon and to absolutely max out in a HAC takes about 1.5-2 years if you focus on it. Yes, older people will be able to fly ALL the stuff but they can't fly it all at once.
What I do think is a problem is that CCP encourages whining by changing things only when they are talked about on the forums. I've seen the examples of where a bug/exploit would be bug reported several times and wouldn't be fixed until it was posted publicly. I've seen the massive whining about nanoships and nos, and while they were both needed fixes in my opinion, nothing changed until the forum warriors got to it. I think CCP should look harder for the obvious problems in gameplay themselves so they don't have to depend on the community to point out these problems.
And there's just the problem of a community growing bigger, this ALWAYS results in people not knowing each other personally resulting in a more grim atmosphere. This happens in every community, internet or not.
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Ket Halpak
Cold-Fury
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:03:00 -
[36]
Quote:
Megadon, I have started playing with Red Moon Rising
You know, I started playing before Red Moon Rising, 15 minutes before to be exact. My first day in eve went like this:
15 minutes of tutorial
24 hours of downloading patch
_
This is a dev trap sig. It has beer in it. Lets see how many we can catch :)
*Free Beer, Don't mind the spikes* |
Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:29:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
I've been playing since mhmhmhmhm and let me tell you, the % of whine hasn't changed, it's the amount of people.
It's dead simple.
Back in the day, 5k people, 2 whines/week.
Now, over 30k people, 12 whines/week.
It has nothing to do with peopel, just numbers. The whining has ALWAYS been here and always will.
People have this weird conception that in the 2003-4 era, everyone was holding hands, no fighting, skipping through the universe and singing happy tunes.
Quoted for too much truth!!
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000Hunter000
Gallente
Magners Marauders
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:33:00 -
[38]
Gawd yes... 5k people... i remember that... i remember when eve finally hit the 10k mark... it was a glorious moment but someting inside of me also cried a bit at that moment as i realized it would never be the same as it was, big, cold and empty space but still dangerous enough that if u finally did meet someone he was likely to blow u up for ur mods or hold u ransom.
I adapted as i always do but every so often i long back to those times 
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!!
Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:37:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Drenan
Quote:
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
Oh I think I do...but feel free to 'enlighten' me.
Your skills only matter if they affect the ship and modules you are flying at the time. You can be an expert frigate pilot skill wise in a few months, exactly the same as a veteran in a frigate (except they have more combat experience).
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Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:43:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Drenan
Quote:
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
Oh I think I do...but feel free to 'enlighten' me.
When i board a ship and undock, i dont use 100% of my sp, hence you only need a certain ammount of sp to specialize in 1 ship and that ammount lies around 10mil sp (depends a lot on the ship tho) so around 10 months of playing time to be on par with people who have been playing for 100 years, for 1 ship ofcourse, the people that play for 100 years can probably fly every ship really good but you can only undock in 1 ship at a time, wich makes this the most balanced advancement system in the history of mmo gaming (imo), now go tell your friends.
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Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2007.10.04 11:49:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 11:49:18
Originally by: Kel'dar Drax
I am a new player,but surely CCP Wrangler would not have sat back and allowed the devs to nerf an entire race (for so long a time) without something being done to restore the balance?
amarrians cried and they wined for I cant recall how many months, but there were hundreds of threads about it, and it all was ignored and Tuxford said Amarr was fine.....untill one day...after much whining and despair and cross training CCP FINALLY admitted Amarr was broken.
Quote:
Please reassure me that the great Amarr race and their fine ships are not really nerfed at all, but if they are...why was this done and why has nothing been done about it?
It was nerfed into obvlivion. amarr has always been a two trick pony, tank or gank. stacking penalty gimped both. Lack of mid slots and high em resistance made amarr suck.
Call to arms!!! |
Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Drasked
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
I've been playing since mhmhmhmhm and let me tell you, the % of whine hasn't changed, it's the amount of people.
It's dead simple.
Back in the day, 5k people, 2 whines/week.
Now, over 30k people, 12 whines/week.
It has nothing to do with peopel, just numbers. The whining has ALWAYS been here and always will.
People have this weird conception that in the 2003-4 era, everyone was holding hands, no fighting, skipping through the universe and singing happy tunes.
Quoted for too much truth!!
Sadly, logic and reason has no place on these forums 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Sixtina KL
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Roy Batty68
I think alot of the older vets have become a bit too snobbish and disdainful of what the forums have become. I think they have allowed it to become so by not actively putting the newer trolls in their place. I think if they really cared for the game, they would actively defend it.
They're not being snobbish.
They're just sane.
__________________________________
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Taint
Caldari
The Ankou
The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:26:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jaikar Isillia
I don't understand.. you first attempt to construe some position of authority because of how long you have been playing the game. You then state how EVE is a harsh game and people whine and cry too much... Then you go and whine yourself?
thats not whine ... and actuly he got a good point in what he says.
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Lazuran
Gallente
Time And ISK Sink Corporation
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:27:00 -
[45]
Most of the whines today are still about lag and to be very honest, EVE in its current state deserves that. Older players / early adopters are just more forgiving and compassionate with CCP.
isn't it funny how some people advocate both GTC<=>ISK trades and EVE being superior due to its cruelty and costly losses, when they use the former to circumvent the latter?
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MITSUK0
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:45:00 -
[46]
Exelent post. My main (currently not subbed) started in 2005 and I have noticed similar trend in EVE.
The community has changed and is a lot more whiney in a "nerf them! buff us!" sort of way. Tactical combat is slowly getting nerfed because it wipes the floor with cookie cutter setups (case in point: speed nerfs).
"meh"
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Ryoji Tanakama
Caldari
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:47:00 -
[47]
Meh, you have missed one important fact.
3 or four years ago when I first started playing (not this character btw, my first one was on an acct I gave to a friend - though this character must be 3 years old by now I guess) people whined just as much, about most of the same things.
The lingo changes however. The horrid word 'balance' is thrown around like it has actual meaning today. A few years ago the word was 'viability'.
The community hasn't really changed on the whole.
~Ryoji Tanakama
Daikoku Fleet Shipyards |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 12:52:00 -
[48]
Good post OP. Society is, in general, becoming more risk adverse and more expecting of compensation when things do go wrong. I've no idea what its like in the US or mainland Europe but here in the UK you can't move for ads shouting 'where there's blame there's a claim'.
Many people in their day to day lives now expected to be protected from risk, and compensated when the risks they take cause harm - even if it's through their own stupidity or negligence.
This inevitabley spills out onto the internet and MMO games, and when faced with 'life's not fair' the plaintive cries whine out. It doesn't really matter which side of the fence you might be on either, .0 dwellers complain that there's no risk in high sec for the high rewards, high sec dwellers complain that high sec isn't safe enough when they get ganked flying that freighter crammed full of goodies.
I don't like it that my fav ship (the curse) doesn't wtfpwn as it used to, and I too have been guilty of running to the forums protesting. But I'll get over it (at least its cheaper...) and adapt over time.
Hopefully more veteran players like you will stand against the tide and post on the forums, ccp will listen and Eve will remain a tiny corner of the internet where when things go horribly wrong then its just tough.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail |
Rana Ash
Minmatar
Aeon Trinity
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Posted - 2007.10.04 13:01:00 -
[49]
It has once been said that the people that has no problems with EvE, the ones that adapt. Does'nt post on the forums.
Only those that can't adapt whine and demand..
¦on Trinity is recruting, inquire within for details
lyret dedreen
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Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.10.04 13:01:00 -
[50]
Yeah, agreed, speed is good, can I have my Cavalry Raven back please? the whiners should just STFU already.
/sarcasm off
____________________
A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Aille Pluthrak
Caldari
Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.10.04 13:34:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Sheriff Jones
People have this weird conception that in the 2003-4 era, everyone was holding hands, no fighting, skipping through the universe and singing happy tunes.
I don't remember that at all. I do remember Concord not insta-poping me when I shot at someone in a belt in highsec and being able to doc up. Getting shot at when approching a gate in low sec and no gate guns being at the gate. Wondering if I would ever be able to mine enough to afford that very expensive Rupture. I also remember coming back 3 years later, looking at the loadout of my 3 year old Rupture and thinking WTF was I smoking when I placed that crap on the ship? 
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Berand
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:03:00 -
[52]
Quote:
It seems however that CCP, in an effort to broaden its commercial appeal is slowly but relentlessly grinding away anything and all things that could be misconstrued as ôunpleasantö or ôunfairö. Whether itÆs ship modules, game mechanics, industry, mission running, pvp everything is nerfed for a more pleasurable gaming experience. And no, IÆm not talking about the really big needed nerfs like missiles.
I like how you end this statement with your own whine about a needed nerf. Nerfing is completely in the eye of the beholder, it's CCPs job to determine what is actually unbalanced, and what is just chaff.
Without fail, every single game I've played online for an extended period of time has gone through this phase that you're clearly in, where they loudly proclaim that the past was so rosy the Dev's crap didn't stink, and the game now is one step away from the edge of the Abyss of Eternal Suck. And it was total crap in those cases, just as it is now.
Fortunately, we're blessed with a Dev team that is slow to make changes. Yes, blessed - I know people like to complain about how long it takes them to balance things out. I assert that it's a good thing. Knee-jerk reactions do not make for good nerf-bat-wielding policy.
Anyhow, I do love posts that whine about whining. :)
Berand
p.s. Have you fought a skilled nano gang lately? Didn't think so.
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althan gnartians
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:06:00 -
[53]
Just as in real life the top of the food chain is not the specialised hunter, but the rather week hairless monkey who spend a lot of time crying faul, just consider the posibility thats it¦s you who cant adapt and not the others being favorised by some deity.
Theres a lot of redundant skills on most veterans skill tree, meaning that you as new player might be able to match them one on one at one point, not nesseryly more then 6-10month into the game, if they focus training.
Just being in game for years entiteles you to nothing, thats one of the things that make eve special, it¦s just so much more about group dynamics then being a level 70 paladin. I can see wry some vets feel sort of cheated by that fact but thats just as (in)valid a whine as the one the noob give out when they get annoyed about never catching up.
Most of the nerfs are not made because some vet with an exeptional specialisation proves that they can pwn, they come when everybody and their dog start to train for a certain iwin setup.
That was how the nanophoon, nosdomi or ECM, got their nerf and theres a fair chance that vagabond and sabre are on the short list for the next nerf.
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Louis DelaBlanche
Cosmic Odyssey
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:37:00 -
[54]
Ive played EVE since the end of 2005. & no nerf/rebalance/change/whatever has yet to make me rethink playing or wish for a mythical golden age where nostalgia makes me remember it as better than it was.
There have always been whiners whining about everything under the sun. There have always been innovators/exploiters/server issues/imbalances/percieved unfairness' causing the whiners to whine. The buzzwords & cliche's change, but the posts dont.
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Drenan
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Posted - 2007.10.04 14:44:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Drenan
Quote:
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
Oh I think I do...but feel free to 'enlighten' me.
Your skills only matter if they affect the ship and modules you are flying at the time. You can be an expert frigate pilot skill wise in a few months, exactly the same as a veteran in a frigate (except they have more combat experience).
I fully understand the specialisation argument...what I take issue with is with the insanely long time it takes to train some skills to just L5...let alone advanced skills.
There is no justification for this time-sink in the current game dynamic.
Also the inability to train alts simultaneously means that you are forced to spread your precious training time on a main char across several areas e.g. Manufacturing/Trade/Combat etc., if you want your game experience to be varied and interesting...rather than being stuck as a 'one trick pony' for two years.
I actually like and agree with the Eve real-time skill training system. It is the mechanics, and the duration of training times that needs to change.
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Tamahra
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:04:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Megadon
Where did these people come from? What game do they think they are playing? It seems however that CCP, in an effort to broaden its commercial appeal is slowly but relentlessly grinding away anything and all things that could be misconstrued as ôunpleasantö or ôunfairö.
Sorry that we, the newer players, invaded your game megadon  but im glad ccp made the game interesting for a wider audience and with more ppl playing the game there comes more money to hire more developers to create more content and making it a better game.
You didnt explicitely say it but you sounded pretty much like "where did all these pathetic new players come from, they better jump back into their trashcans where they came from"
if it was only up to players of your department, you could play your very own niche-hardcore game of your liking but then the game would never ever step forward onto the next level of game experience and many ppl would miss out on it.
I like challenge too, but you in your self-righteousness throw all the new players into one pot and describe them as below:
"It seems however as more players have come to from other MMOÆs and the Eve population has dramatically grown, the differences between the ôearly adoptersö and todayÆs Eve player is becoming more evident."
I find this a bit snobby
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Snake Jankins
Minmatar
German Cyberdome Corp
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:13:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 04/10/2007 15:13:32
Originally by: Berand
Quote:
And no, IÆm not talking about the really big needed nerfs like missiles.
I like how you end this statement with your own whine about a needed nerf. Nerfing is completely in the eye of the beholder, it's CCPs job to determine what is actually unbalanced, and what is just chaff.
I'm quite sure he was referring to the missile nerf that happened maybe 2 years ago (?) already, when explosion radius and explosion velocity and the new missile skills were introduced and torps didn't wftpwn frigs anymore.
___________
I've never been so serious as I am now. No, really. |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
|
Posted - 2007.10.04 15:33:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Death Kill
Lack of mid slots (..) made amarr suck.
Repeat after me: Most Amarr ships don't have fewer mid slots than Gallente ships.
Yet Gallente ships are popular for PvP. It can't be because of the mids.
Examples?
Vexor: 3 mids - Omen: 3 mids
Thorax: 3 mids - Maller: 3 mids
Arbitrator: 4 mids
Deimos: 3 mids - Zealot: 3 mids
Brutix: 4 mids - Harbinger: 4 mids (yes I know it's tier 1 and 2, but still both battlecruisers)
Megathron: 4 mids - Apocalypse: 4 mids
_________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well - |
Drasked
North Face Force
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:34:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Drenan
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Drenan
Quote:
You really dont understand EVE's skill system at all.
Oh I think I do...but feel free to 'enlighten' me.
Your skills only matter if they affect the ship and modules you are flying at the time. You can be an expert frigate pilot skill wise in a few months, exactly the same as a veteran in a frigate (except they have more combat experience).
I fully understand the specialisation argument...what I take issue with is with the insanely long time it takes to train some skills to just L5...let alone advanced skills.
There is no justification for this time-sink in the current game dynamic.
Also the inability to train alts simultaneously means that you are forced to spread your precious training time on a main char across several areas e.g. Manufacturing/Trade/Combat etc., if you want your game experience to be varied and interesting...rather than being stuck as a 'one trick pony' for two years.
I actually like and agree with the Eve real-time skill training system. It is the mechanics, and the duration of training times that needs to change.
Your first post and this post contradict each other a bit too hard, first you say that the longer the game goes on the more impossible it becomes for new players to catch up, and then your suggesting that last 5% or 2% on a skill should take a shorter training time?
You really don't understand EVE's skill system at all.
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Cpt Fina
Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.04 15:44:00 -
[60]
I have to agree. No successful company has ever listened to customer feedback nor changed their product to better fit the customerÆs needs.
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xOm3gAx
Caldari
Stain of Mind
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:09:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Cpt Fina
I have to agree. No successful company has ever listened to customer feedback nor changed their product to better fit the customerÆs needs.
This is not only true but its why i started playing eve in the first place. Life isnt fair and eve shouldn't be either. (Balanced yes fair no). Its why i quit games like planetside, lineage2, swg and a multitude of others. They couldnt keep my interest because they listened to the whines. I don't want and easy game i want a game that will always be there for me and always kick my ass when i get to*****y. Only eve provides that, every other game... well you don't lose anything when u get*****y and die you just die.
-----------
"Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
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Cpt Fina
Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:14:00 -
[62]
Originally by: xOm3gAx
Originally by: Cpt Fina
I have to agree. No successful company has ever listened to customer feedback nor changed their product to better fit the customerÆs needs.
This is not only true but its why i started playing eve in the first place. Life isnt fair and eve shouldn't be either. (Balanced yes fair no). Its why i quit games like planetside, lineage2, swg and a multitude of others. They couldnt keep my interest because they listened to the whines. I don't want and easy game i want a game that will always be there for me and always kick my ass when i get to*****y. Only eve provides that, every other game... well you don't lose anything when u get*****y and die you just die.
I was being sarcastic. Too bad it failed so miserably.
I think itÆs important for CCP to listen to the playerbaseÆs concerns and continually play the game themselves to keep themselves updated of their product.
As long as they donÆt loose the core-identity of the game, changes are not something bad.
Or do you still only fly around in T1-frigates with T1 equipment?
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Dr Grot
Gallente
Warrior Eclipse
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:14:00 -
[63]
I'm a new player and although a bit daunted by the amount of skill training times I think it's still reasonable.
The biggest hurdle for new players is not skill points or ISK, it's how are you gonna get yourself up the corporate and alliance ladder. How do you get your self in a position of power, influence and control over space.
Here lies the real challenge, one which I'm looking forward to. Everything else is just **** (for want of a better word)
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Megadon
Caldari
Deathshead Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.04 16:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Berand
Quote:
It seems however that CCP, in an effort to broaden its commercial appeal is slowly but relentlessly grinding away anything and all things that could be misconstrued as ôunpleasantö or ôunfairö. Whether itÆs ship modules, game mechanics, industry, mission running, pvp everything is nerfed for a more pleasurable gaming experience. And no, IÆm not talking about the really big needed nerfs like missiles.
I like how you end this statement with your own whine about a needed nerf. Nerfing is completely in the eye of the beholder, it's CCPs job to determine what is actually unbalanced, and what is just chaff.
Without fail, every single game I've played online for an extended period of time has gone through this phase that you're clearly in, where they loudly proclaim that the past was so rosy the Dev's crap didn't stink, and the game now is one step away from the edge of the Abyss of Eternal Suck. And it was total crap in those cases, just as it is now.
Fortunately, we're blessed with a Dev team that is slow to make changes. Yes, blessed - I know people like to complain about how long it takes them to balance things out. I assert that it's a good thing. Knee-jerk reactions do not make for good nerf-bat-wielding policy.
Anyhow, I do love posts that whine about whining. :)
Berand
p.s. Have you fought a skilled nano gang lately? Didn't think so.
I wasn't really pointing to that as a specific nerf, just using that as an example. But since you brought it up, you think torps hitting anything for 600 dmg back when was a good thing? I didn't think so...
...but again, it has less to do with specific nerfs, it has more to do with the general direction of things. Nerfs you adapt to, they don't neccesarily change the atmosphere of the game. And I never said Eve was on the brink eternal suck.
--------------
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Dr Ming
Mindworks
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Posted - 2007.10.04 17:01:00 -
[65]
People who get upset about the long training times need to stop and think about what the levels mean.
Getting level 1 through 4 in a skill requires a fraction of the time it takes to get level 5 in a skill, yet the increase in ability that going from level 4 to 5 is the exact same level of increase you get from going from level 0 to 1.
If you stop worrying about needing to have the biggest epeen, and rack up all your relevant skills to level 4, the training times are very reasonable.
Needing to spend a massive amount of time to perfect flying in a ship isn't such a big deal when your able to fly quite well already. Especially since they've made faction ammo more available and removed the massive power shift between non-T2 guns and T2 guns.
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Shaia Devine
Caldari
Joint Espionage and Defence Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.04 22:36:00 -
[66]
Originally by: xOm3gAx
Originally by: Cpt Fina
I have to agree. No successful company has ever listened to customer feedback nor changed their product to better fit the customerÆs needs.
This is not only true but its why i started playing eve in the first place. Life isnt fair and eve shouldn't be either. (Balanced yes fair no). Its why i quit games like planetside, lineage2, swg and a multitude of others. They couldnt keep my interest because they listened to the whines. I don't want and easy game i want a game that will always be there for me and always kick my ass when i get to*****y. Only eve provides that, every other game... well you don't lose anything when u get*****y and die you just die.
What he said FTW....EvE has concequences.We need to keep them.Without concequences,whats the point?....Too many games cater to the "Epeen crowd".
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Daelorn
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.04 22:41:00 -
[67]
I'll take back EVE 03 any day. Less people, less idiots, less lag, more fun... lots more fun
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Allan Robertson
Gallente
Azure Horizon
Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.10.04 22:48:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Allan Robertson on 04/10/2007 22:48:51
I've been in eve for about the same time 3 years now, and EVE was my first MMO I've got no problems with the style of EVE game play, but the only problem I've got with EVE is low security, I made a post about the problems of low security not fitting it's job and needing a new direction and I got.. nothing.
---
Say YES! to Mining Cargo Holds on barges! |
Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.04 23:04:00 -
[69]
The insurmountable skill training time to get into any of the "cool" ships has deterred at least six potential players that I know of personally.
And it looks like these new tech II battleships are no encouragement. The skill training system that favors older players so heavily over new ones will continue to hinder growth of EVE's playerbase. And from the looks of things it's only going to get worse. The new player experience is harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging. I know of one event that instantly cost CCP three subscribers. That kind of experience often spells death for an MMO. EVE occupies a very small niche market (It's marketshare is pathetic by comparison) and it's not growing. I hope CCP is happy with that.
You can proclaim EVE's virtues all you want, but the indisputable fact remains that many aspects of the game deter potential players before they even start. The UI, the general harshness, the training time. Even it's biggest selling point - a non-sharded server - has severe drawbacks such as Jita, Rens, Motsu, and Saila.
-----------
Support fixing the EVE UI |
Cailais
Amarr
VITOC
Fang Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.04 23:21:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Xaen
The insurmountable skill training time to get into any of the "cool" ships has deterred at least six potential players that I know of personally.
And it looks like these new tech II battleships are no encouragement. The skill training system that favors older players so heavily over new ones will continue to hinder growth of EVE's playerbase. And from the looks of things it's only going to get worse. The new player experience is harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging. I know of one event that instantly cost CCP three subscribers. That kind of experience often spells death for an MMO. EVE occupies a very small niche market (It's marketshare is pathetic by comparison) and it's not growing. I hope CCP is happy with that.
You can proclaim EVE's virtues all you want, but the indisputable fact remains that many aspects of the game deter potential players before they even start. The UI, the general harshness, the training time. Even it's biggest selling point - a non-sharded server - has severe drawbacks such as Jita, Rens, Motsu, and Saila.
What's harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging to one player is tough, appealing, challenging and rewarding to another.
Eve is one of the few MMOs (and even games for that matter) where you face a challenge to survive, let alone prosper and do well. I don't resent the vets skill points advantage, it seems to make relatively little difference, and sometimes you just have to face up to the fact that there will always be someone bigger, and tougher than you are.
Eve would be a poorer game if ever newbie could just jump into a T2 BS after a couple of months.
C.
- sig designer - eve mail |
Zed Nash
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:20:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Xaen
The insurmountable skill training time to get into any of the "cool" ships has deterred at least six potential players that I know of personally.
And it looks like these new tech II battleships are no encouragement. The skill training system that favors older players so heavily over new ones will continue to hinder growth of EVE's playerbase. And from the looks of things it's only going to get worse. The new player experience is harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging. I know of one event that instantly cost CCP three subscribers. That kind of experience often spells death for an MMO. EVE occupies a very small niche market (It's marketshare is pathetic by comparison) and it's not growing. I hope CCP is happy with that.
You can proclaim EVE's virtues all you want, but the indisputable fact remains that many aspects of the game deter potential players before they even start. The UI, the general harshness, the training time. Even it's biggest selling point - a non-sharded server - has severe drawbacks such as Jita, Rens, Motsu, and Saila.
Bigger isn't always better in Eve, you can have the biggest, brightest, newest ship to hit the game, and lose it to a gang of T1 frigs and cruisers, to players a small fraction of your age.
Those who see the skilling time as "harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging" and leave, are really the type of instant self-gratification people that the OPs complaining about, and honestly the type of people the game is better off without.
The "dinosaur" vets understand this, it's people like you, the "OMG, GOTTA REACH END GAME!" people who don't.
"Maya Rkell is my online stalker." |
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:43:00 -
[72]
Simply put, Eve is not trying to appeal to a larger player base. It might in the near future when CCP changes a few more things, but for the moment, the game isn't appealing to a large player base. And I'm sure a lot of players are glad of that fact.
---
Join BH-DL |
Death Kill
Caldari
direkte
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Posted - 2007.10.05 10:52:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Death Kill on 05/10/2007 10:53:20
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
Repeat after me: Most Amarr ships don't have fewer mid slots than Gallente ships.
Yet Gallente ships are popular for PvP. It can't be because of the mids.
Examples?
Vexor: 3 mids - Omen: 3 mids
vexor drones, Omen lol
Quote:
Thorax: 3 mids - Maller: 3 mids
thorax DPS and drones, Maller lol
Quote:
Arbitrator: 4 mids
thats 1
Quote:
Deimos: 3 mids - Zealot: 3 mids
deimos pwn , zealot lol
Quote:
Brutix: 4 mids - Harbinger: 4 mids (yes I know it's tier 1 and 2, but still both battlecruisers)
Another one
Quote:
Megathron: 4 mids - Apocalypse: 4 mids
........and another one. So thats 3 out of how many ships in total?
you also forget, that Gallente deal much much more damage then Amarr.
Call to arms!!! |
Khes
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Posted - 2007.10.05 11:55:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Khes on 05/10/2007 12:06:06
Edited by: Khes on 05/10/2007 12:03:19
Edited by: Khes on 05/10/2007 12:02:29
Edited by: Khes on 05/10/2007 11:57:04
Originally by: Xaen
The insurmountable skill training time to get into any of the "cool" ships has deterred at least six potential players that I know of personally.
And it looks like these new tech II battleships are no encouragement. The skill training system that favors older players so heavily over new ones will continue to hinder growth of EVE's playerbase. And from the looks of things it's only going to get worse. The new player experience is harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging. I know of one event that instantly cost CCP three subscribers. That kind of experience often spells death for an MMO. EVE occupies a very small niche market (It's marketshare is pathetic by comparison) and it's not growing. I hope CCP is happy with that.
You can proclaim EVE's virtues all you want, but the indisputable fact remains that many aspects of the game deter potential players before they even start. The UI, the general harshness, the training time. Even it's biggest selling point - a non-sharded server - has severe drawbacks such as Jita, Rens, Motsu, and Saila.
CCP could go with a very simple UI, and no training time, and no complexity at all, but what game would Eve be then??? Why must ALL games be absolut main-stream??? The complexity, the harshness AND the training-system is actually the main points why many start playing Eve. It is not ment to be easy, it is not ment to be simple! It is not what Eve is about! To be main-stream is not EVERY games goal you know.
The training time is long yes, but that was one aspect of the game that made me come here. A game where I can evolve skillwise but not having to grind endlessly. It is perfect! I evolve even though Im not playing the game! Could it be any better?
You say the training system hinder the growth. Well first of I belive the growth is as big as it can and should be right now. Any higher rate of new players and Eve would go under. Do you think Eve has to few players? Second, what alternative do you suggest? WoWs grinding to level up? Don't think so mate.
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Sixtina KL
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Posted - 2007.10.05 12:45:00 -
[75]
EVE is the one game where your profit isn't directly proportional to the time you spend making it. Classic MMOs have you double-clicking on monsters for hours on end to make a measly sum to contribute to your next suit of armor. EVE requires more wits than that.
This is one thing I find nice about the game: yes, training up for, say, a HAC takes something like three months. But I don't need to be there during those three months. The only thing I need to worry about is ISK, and once you get a good feel of the game, then you can really get the ball rolling and reap the millions with relative ease.
On a classic Korean MMO, had I wanted to use, I dunno, double swords (call it the fantasy version of the HAC fitted with T2 guns), I would've had to play for three months and four hours per day just to be able to afford both swords. And here's the kicker: the operation to turn them into "dual swords", where all you really do is hold one in the right hand and the other in the left, costs as much as both swords combined. Oh, and did I mention you needed to be level 55 to use these dual swords? I was level 40. Oops!
__________________________________
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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:30:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Zed Nash
Bigger isn't always better in Eve, you can have the biggest, brightest, newest ship to hit the game, and lose it to a gang of T1 frigs and cruisers, to players a small fraction of your age.
Who mentioned size? It would take a new character a month to be able to fly an interceptor. And if they actually did dedicate every second toward it (guaranteeing that it only takes a month) they'll likely not have the skills to make the money to buy the ship when they get the skills.
I tell people who have never played that it "only" takes a month to get into an interceptor and they look at me and go, "Only?! Wow..." and then usually walk away disinterested.
Originally by: Zed Nash
Those who see the skilling time as "harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging" and leave, are really the type of instant self-gratification people that the OPs complaining about, and honestly the type of people the game is better off without.
It wasn't the "skilling time" that I described as "harsh, abysmal, frustrating and discouraging" it's the perception of EVE as a whole to new players.
Originally by: Zed Nash
The "dinosaur" vets understand this, it's people like you, the "OMG, GOTTA REACH END GAME!" people who don't.
People like me? I'm closer to a "dinosaur" vet than anything. I don't want to reach "end game" because there isn't an end game to eve. I'm mostly just here to have fun and blow other people up. Everything else I do is merely working toward the goal of being better able to blow other players up before they blow me up.
Most "dinosaur" vets have completely lost perspective. For some of them the only way to get it back would be to delete all of their characters and try again. Do that, then look at the skill requirements for a HAC or a capital ship, see if it isn't daunting.
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Support fixing the EVE UI |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:38:00 -
[77]
If it is any prize, "dinosaurs" eventually extinct. Evolution, time and history have proven it.
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Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria!
Kali is for KArebearLIng.
I 100% agree with Avon.
Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game. |
Esmenet
|
Posted - 2007.10.05 14:14:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Xaen
Who mentioned size? It would take a new character a month to be able to fly an interceptor. And if they actually did dedicate every second toward it (guaranteeing that it only takes a month) they'll likely not have the skills to make the money to buy the ship when they get the skills.
Well i'm pretty low on SP, and cant fly a single T2 ship, yet i find it very easy to make ISK and i do pvp fine with my T1 frigs/cruiser/battlecruisers.
The main problem i think is the perception that you need to have high SP to do anything. But unlike other MMO's you dont need to be max level to be useful. There is no endgame you need to reach. I like that i dont need to grind mobs all day to progress. I like that i can go on vacation for a week and still have my character progress. I like that there is no goal in terms of SP/Gear i need to reach to be useful to my corp.
Sometimes looking at the list of skills i would want to train can be a bit overwhelming, but i dont care. Its nice to feel that you are always progressing your char. Thats what rpg's are all about really.
I play EVE because its different from most other MMO's. EVE may not be for everyone, but i dont think CCP intends to please everyone.
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Xaen
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:22:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Esmenet
Well i'm pretty low on SP, and cant fly a single T2 ship, yet i find it very easy to make ISK and i do pvp fine with my T1 frigs/cruiser/battlecruisers.
The main problem i think is the perception that you need to have high SP to do anything. But unlike other MMO's you dont need to be max level to be useful. There is no endgame you need to reach. I like that i dont need to grind mobs all day to progress. I like that i can go on vacation for a week and still have my character progress. I like that there is no goal in terms of SP/Gear i need to reach to be useful to my corp.
Sometimes looking at the list of skills i would want to train can be a bit overwhelming, but i dont care. Its nice to feel that you are always progressing your char. Thats what rpg's are all about really.
I play EVE because its different from most other MMO's. EVE may not be for everyone, but i dont think CCP intends to please everyone.
I'm OK with it. In fact most EVE players are, else they wouldn't be EVE players. But try convincing someone new to play when they know that.
-----------
Support fixing the EVE UI |
Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:27:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Xaen
I'm OK with it. In fact most EVE players are, else they wouldn't be EVE players. But try convincing someone new to play when they know that.
Well that only matters if the goal is to make EVE appeal to every new player.
I'm not so sure the current EVE players would be happy with how EVE would turn out then.
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Woggy
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:29:00 -
[81]
CCP and EVE exist for one purpose and one purpose only it isnt to
a) provide a ruthless PVP enviroment
b) A Darwinist experience
c) Any other noble purpose
It exists to make CCP money, thats real life money Euro's,dollars pounds not ISK
If their actions **** a few people who have been around for years but bring in 5000 new subscribers they will do so . ( The longer you have been in a game the less important you become as your numbers are likely to be less).
I really think some people here think they are the centre of CCP universe, as an individual subscriber you simply dont count for much, get a proper campaign and some decent numbers and the system will change
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Nomaar
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:39:00 -
[82]
I don't see CCP caving in to the carebear whiners like you do. Compared to every other MMORPG out there, CCP is actually maniacal when it comes to maintaining a ruthless and challenging environment. They will sometimes try to rebalance things, such as trying to demphasize gatecamping, which has always been a carebear version of PvP anyway.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:41:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Woggy
CCP and EVE exist for one purpose and one purpose only it isnt to
a) provide a ruthless PVP enviroment
b) A Darwinist experience
c) Any other noble purpose
It exists to make CCP money, thats real life money Euro's,dollars pounds not ISK
If their actions **** a few people who have been around for years but bring in 5000 new subscribers they will do so . ( The longer you have been in a game the less important you become as your numbers are likely to be less).
I really think some people here think they are the centre of CCP universe, as an individual subscriber you simply dont count for much, get a proper campaign and some decent numbers and the system will change
While ccp is a business like any other and wants to make money its not that simple.
If the only goal was mass appeal i doubt EVE would be like it is now.
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Felysta Sandorn
Caldari
System-Lords
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.10.05 14:44:00 -
[84]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Originally by: Megadon
Did CCP hire a bunch of people from Electronic Arts or Sony Entertainment or what?!?
Blasphemer!!
No, actually we tend to hire EVE players, and CCP is fairly well spread out between the different playstyles.
Please make sure the next few people you hire are Amarr pilots...
Like me! Hire me!
Latest Video, Click Here!
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Aphroditi
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Posted - 2007.10.05 15:15:00 -
[85]
Megadon my friend you wrote the BEST post ever in this forum.
Amen. Well written
Have a nice weekend brother.
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Manina Boat
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.10.05 15:58:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Galk
I think your conceptions are wholey misplaced.
Placing aside the 'harsh' issues, which are and can be entitrely negated by new users through 'buying in' aka timecode and character transfers, the objectives of your posts.. the people, im sorry but your picking up on entirely the wrong vibe.
This forum/community is mostly full of knockers now, very little gets constructivley discussed, people iv'e known for years just won't post on these forums anymore due to the general hostility, and the lack of willingness by the modertors to bring a change to that.... something that even puts me off posting in the majority of threads on this board... iv'e no desire to post in threads thats allready been trolled with 'gtfo' or stfu.. or spammed with nonsense posts... by the same people doing it day in day out.
A little short sighted your post imho... look at the reasons why all you see is 'whines' then read the above again.
Very little constructive talk goes on here now..... you cleared out all the spammers/trolls from the forum, id imagine your conceptions would change overnight.
QFT
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Johho Bulon
Gallente
Freelancer Union
Unaffiliated
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Posted - 2007.10.05 16:00:00 -
[87]
Well...
I am relatively new player, 5 months in, and I agree with a lot of what the OP puts forward.
Nerfing is a bit dispiriting but not the end of the world, but the attitude that propels the demands for nerfs stinks. It's envy and rage mixed together to produce a righteous fury and allows players to indignantly demand that things are either removed from the game altogether (T2 BPOs) or nerfed to the stone age (Nos, ECM).
I got the training system straight away, yes I'd have a hard-to-impossible time catching up to some 4 year old char, but I realized that if I focused I would be able to make myself useful enough. I just had to decide how I wanted to play it.
I agree on the balance issue, who needs it?
I don't want to be playing a game where each decision or opportunity is basically a coin toss, I want to stack the ******* deck in my favour as best I can and I know my opponent also does, I don't want the Devs doing their best to make sure that all this effort results in a balanced 50-50, or something only slighty off that, chance. If I am completely outclassed, by players older and more skilled than I am then I should have to go figure out new tactics and strategy and train up some skills buy new ships etc.
Too many players seem to think the opposite, when they are outclassed they want the GM and Devs to destroy the advantage their opponent held or to reduce it to what at best might be seen as an inconvenience.
I'd add though, that I think the new T2 ships could be a step in the right direction gameplay wise. The heavy interdictors for example are a nice counter to nano ships if they work as advertised, and may be a sign that outright nerfage is being given less priority than allowing players to decide how to tackle certain types of problems.
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Once we have a war there is only one thing to do. It must be won. For defeat brings worse things than any that can ever happen in war. -- Ernest Hemingway |
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