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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 11:59:00 -
[1]
with the inty changes in SiSi and their tier-ization in tackler-inties and anti-tackling-inties, can we expect to see the Afrigs revamped and a role bonus added to them?
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planetary interaction idea! |
Kaar
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:29:00 -
[2]
And have them lose their "useless" role?
I think not!
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Redora
Gallente
Universal Exports
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:44:00 -
[3]
Oh please oh please oh please oh please. Maybe they'll switch around a few bonuses to make some more sense too. >.> (Jaguar/Wolf, for example). What sort of 'Role Bonus' would this be though?
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Redora
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543553 |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:46:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Redora
Oh please oh please oh please oh please. Maybe they'll switch around a few bonuses to make some more sense too. >.> (Jaguar/Wolf, for example). What sort of 'Role Bonus' would this be though?
"immune to propulsion interdiction modules (webs)."
that's my take tho.
suddenly Afrigs would go from sucky **** to KAPLAW!.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Haytachi
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:49:00 -
[5]
But what role do they fit o-O? Inties are designed to be a tackler but and AF. Bonus to hitting smaller sigs rather than bigger ones o.O?
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Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 12:55:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Haytachi
But what role do they fit o-O? Inties are designed to be a tackler but and AF. Bonus to hitting smaller sigs rather than bigger ones o.O?
one could argue anti-support/fire support.
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planetary interaction idea! |
Isyel
Minmatar
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:04:00 -
[7]
Just change that damned resist bonus every other t2 ship has in by default to something useful.
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Redora
Gallente
Universal Exports
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Grimpak
Originally by: Haytachi
But what role do they fit o-O? Inties are designed to be a tackler but and AF. Bonus to hitting smaller sigs rather than bigger ones o.O?
one could argue anti-support/fire support.
Feasible, I suppose, and the web immunity would also allow for a 'heavy tackler', for situations where your inty simply doesn't cut it...
/signed again. :D
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Redora
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543553 |
Grimpak
Gallente
Trinity Nova
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:12:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Isyel
Just change that damned resist bonus every other t2 ship has in by default to something useful.
bit OT, but from where is that image in the sig is?
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planetary interaction idea! |
Koryvarn
Amarr
Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:14:00 -
[10]
Role bonus: 80% reduction in sig radius when MWD'ing. Oh, and a 20% mass reduction too. Gievf.
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Haytachi
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Posted - 2007.10.13 13:42:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Haytachi on 13/10/2007 13:45:42
Quote:
Feasible, I suppose, and the web immunity would also allow for a 'heavy tackler', for situations where your inty simply doesn't cut it...
/signed again. :D
That would be work too, being an 'assault' ship and all, it would have its benefits. What'd be also purdy would the formation of 'assault squads' though this would probably never happen but a bonus to having more AFs in a gang. There'd have to be a limit somewhere, but the AFs would be stronger together instead of solo with a HAC AF bonus thrown in o_O Emphasize the assault factor, y'know when the enemy fractures get in there and wreak havoc or create a breach.
Thinking along the lines of a cheap stealth bomber, just without the bombs or the stealth. Just more pew pew, speed and pew pew. Like a scalpel crossed with a chainsaw.  AFs should be a chainsaw, but have scalpels attached to the chain.
But then again that will probably never happen. One can dream. 
That said, I think my brain is going mushy.
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Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
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Posted - 2007.10.13 14:37:00 -
[12]
Blaster ishkur immune to webs would be wtfpwnage. Pretty much unkillable unless you pound it with dozens of light drones and precision missiles.
Originally by: F'nog
One does not simply log into Jita.
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Xilimyth Derlin
OldBastardsPub
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.13 15:26:00 -
[13]
I like the idea of being immune to the web thing.... but what if you make em something interesting simultaneously. Something like: "Due to system hardening, equipping propulsion jamming modules nullifies this effect".
An assault frig without webs/scrams cannot be webbed or scrammed. The moment you try to equip one, that Role bonus disappears. Gives the AF a role without jumping into another.
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Wigglytuff
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.13 16:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Grimpak
with the inty changes in SiSi and their tier-ization in tackler-inties and anti-tackling-inties, can we expect to see the Afrigs revamped and a role bonus added to them?
Unnerf AFs? That's blasphemy!
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Kruel
Blunt Force Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:12:00 -
[15]
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if webbers only affected MWDs. It would give ABs a place in pvp combat. Though if it was an AF only change I'd be fine with that too.
AFs do need a buff. No point in flying one over a cruiser ATM.
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Incantare
Caldari
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:24:00 -
[16]
Get rid of the useless resist bonus. It should be built in like all other t2 ships.
Give AFs a useful bonus instead!
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Centurion1
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:24:00 -
[17]
How about for afs
Role bonus: 25% increase to amount of shield/armor repped per cycle.
make them tankier!
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:31:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Centurion1
How about for afs
Role bonus: 25% increase to amount of shield/armor repped per cycle.
make them tankier!
That role bonus would be sweet, If inties get a role bonus then so should af's. But realistically I would be just as happy if each respective AF had its original t1 hulls bonus back. That would be good enough for me.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:55:00 -
[19]
web immunity for AF's Please!
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Phelan Lore
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.13 20:55:00 -
[20]
Un-nerf AF mass, and give them their 4th bonus.
-
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Max Hardcase
Art of War
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:14:00 -
[21]
AF's are poaching on destroyer territory already.
But god knows how you can fix one without making the other one useless.
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Dheorl
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Max Hardcase
AF's are poaching on destroyer territory already.
But god knows how you can fix one without making the other one useless.
In comparrison to frigs AF should have better tank and gank, dessy's should have same tank but much better gank and as far as I can see that is how it is atm (well kinda) and how it should stay.
Also dessy for smaller targets than itself, AF for bigger targets.
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Skraeling Shortbus
Caldari
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.10.13 21:43:00 -
[23]
destroyers have always been useless, may as well save one of these ships (AF or Destroyer preferably AF).
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.10.13 22:27:00 -
[24]
Whole frig department is kinda obsolete with all cruiser sized crap out there. Final blow were probably not so sucky tier 2 bc and general nano fittings and lack of medslots and...
After I've seen vaga warping before even decloaking(prob 5% agility implant, 2x polycarbon rig and istab), it's obvious that you can scrap your frigs. Ok there are some things where you are better:
- you warp faster(but still you can't catch cruisers, not even with inty, the whole jumping/loading/entering in/out of warp is too equal for all ships)
- you lock faster(but still not fast enough, you can't hope to catch nanoed cruisers)
- you have high resists and smallish sig (but still less overall hp & cap & dps than anything bigger and logistics can't really keep you alive there)
In the end, stabber with acs and assault launchers, LSE II, mwd, 2x nano, 1x od (all t1) can pretty much pwn any AF in the face. While beeing faster and possibly even warping faster.
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Nytemaster
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.10.13 23:26:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Nytemaster on 13/10/2007 23:28:11
Rate of fire bonus or damage increase from 5% to 10% per level. Drone assaults get a bandwidth bonus.
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Alyxa Mahan
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Posted - 2007.10.14 09:59:00 -
[26]
All that AFs need right now is a real fourth bonus, and a reasonable mass reduction (seriously, they're considerably havier than Destroyers!).
If they still suck after that, we can have this discussion again.
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Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: LUKEC
In the end, stabber with acs and assault launchers, LSE II, mwd, 2x nano, 1x od (all t1) can pretty much pwn any AF in the face. While beeing faster and possibly even warping faster.
A Stabber with T1 ACs has a good chance to die to even a frig once it gets in webrange. The ship needs T2 guns to work ;P
However, a relatively cheap Rupture setup will massacre any AF coming in webrange, and still doesn't align or MWD much slower then the typical AF.
The way I see it, AFs would be decent ships with a 30+% mass decrease (or, in fact, just brining them inline with T1 frig mass) and a real fourth bonus (for example, the bonus from the base hull instead of the resists consuming a bonus).
If we were to talk about a role bonus, I'd say something about decreasing the effect of webs, which would make AFs downright nasty ;)
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Alex Harumichi
Gallente
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:18:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
All that AFs need right now is a real fourth bonus, and a reasonable mass reduction (seriously, they're considerably havier than Destroyers!).
Agreed.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:21:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 15/10/2007 08:22:06
IMO, Assault Frigs are frigate version of HACs. They're the smallest ships that are used for head on combat. They don't need to be fast, but they should be hard hitting and hard tanking.
Assault Frigates need:
Their sig put back down (seriously, nerfing assault frigs was lol)
Their armour+shield hp increased
Their total cap and cap recharge increased
Their fittings increased (fitting top tier weapons on some of them - 280mms on Minmatar, Beams on Amarr, etc - and fitting anything else of use doesn't happen without fitting mods realistically) so that they can truly tank and gank
This would make them tough. For frigates. They still have all the intrinsic weaknesses of frigates; they're small, and you can never get away from that. At least this way they *may* be worth using, and will have a chance of ever winning a fight or even being useful.
Edit: A role bonus of +10% damage, or something similar, might not be a bad idea if you want a role bonus on them. Make them hit a bit harder.
Scrapheap Challenge Forums |
General Apocalypse
Amarr
Ship Research
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:27:00 -
[30]
And give the Retribution -1 high +1 med .
So it wouldn't be a useless ship .
Originally by: CCP Morpheus
nerf ccp plz
Originally by: CCP Oveur
To the gankmobile!
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:38:00 -
[31]
Each race should have one 'heavy' and one 'light' AF.
Heavy:
- Extra 5%/lvl dmg/ROF bonus
- Tracking and Missile Accuracy penalty
- Immunity to webs
- 'Tanking AF'
Light:
- Tracking/Missile Accuracy Bonus
- +25% base Velocity
- 'Speed' AF
Paradox V2.0 is recruiting! |
Norris Packard
Wings of Redemption
Black Flag Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 08:57:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Sokratesz
Each race should have one 'heavy' and one 'light' AF.
Heavy:
- Extra 5%/lvl dmg/ROF bonus
- Tracking and Missile Accuracy penalty
- Immunity to webs
- 'Tanking AF'
Light:
- Tracking/Missile Accuracy Bonus
- +25% base Velocity
- 'Speed' AF
No. they dont need a speed assult frig. All of the assult frigs need a bit of a speed boost and mass reduction they should preform like HACs do to cruisers and atm they are falling short of that. The enyo and ishkur both have less base speed than their tech1 counterpart. The assults should be able to outrun mwding cruisers and thats hard to do in an enyo compared to a deimos with no speed mods other than the mwd and that makes no sense at all. they don't need to be interceptors but they should at least act like frigs not bricks. Also all of the AFs need the 4th bonus it is lame that they have neglected that for so long. And yes the vengance would be much better with the 5th high as a 2nd low slot.
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Neu Bastian
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Posted - 2007.10.23 00:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Alyxa Mahan
All that AFs need right now is a real fourth bonus, and a reasonable mass reduction (seriously, they're considerably havier than Destroyers!).
If they still suck after that, we can have this discussion again.
Agreed. I say Make 'em Gankier and Tankier...I'll be happy when a AF can have a reasonable dog fight with a crusier
Neu
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Kilrex
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Posted - 2007.10.23 00:46:00 -
[34]
Immunity to webs is bad, make it a 10% reduction in web affects per level.
Definitely need to have the resists built in though.
Role bonus for web range would really be nice!
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.10.23 02:23:00 -
[35]
I like the idea of a special gang bonus, though it would be kinda limiting....but we dont need more solo pwn mobiles.
so, first step is remove the resist bonus, build it in, and give us something neat, one of the 2 ships should get better range, other type more damage, maybe more tracking, etc.
Then, give 1 type a role bonus to tanking if in gang with other assault frigs, stacking penalized so you dont get any better over like 4 AF, perhaps goes away if other ships are in gang. Other types would get more damage.
If the bonus went away if other ship types are in gang, people would form up wings of assault frigs, 4 per gang. This would perhaps help lower the wtf blob, and wed get multiple smaller gangs hunting or guarding gates and pipes away from the main battle.
has downsides of course, just some ideas i had.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Mr Bodacious
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.23 03:03:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Kruel
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if webbers only affected MWDs. It would give ABs a place in pvp combat. Though if it was an AF only change I'd be fine with that too.
AFs do need a buff. No point in flying one over a cruiser ATM.
Pfft. A cruiser isnt NEARLY as stylish as a Jaguar ;P
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hellsknights
Hells Angels Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.23 03:22:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Grimpak
"immune to propulsion interdiction modules (webs)."
that's my take tho.
suddenly Afrigs would go from sucky **** to KAPLAW!.
Very interesting, i would enjoy this.
recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
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Stuart Price
Caldari
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.23 03:26:00 -
[38]
It would also put more people in stealth bombers since they frag af's in a few volleys.
But I like the idea of my blarpy being unwebbable, that would really ruin most bc/bs pilots days.
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar
ORIGIN SYSTEMS
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.23 07:11:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 23/10/2007 07:16:44
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=619681
When looking over the assault frigs, one notices that few bear any resemblance to the T1 Frig use to make them and often pull bonuses out of thin air.
T1 base used for AF:
Rifter: 5% damage and 7.5% tracking
Merlin: 5% shield resistance and 10% optimal
Punisher: 10% SET cap use and 5% armor resists
Incursus: 10% falloff and 5% damage
Wolf and Jag: Rifter damage bonus applied, tracking bonus removed.
Wolf gets Falloff bonus and second damage bonus
Jag has Optimal bonus and second damage bonus
Harpy and Hawk: Neither has the 5% shield resistance of the Merlin. Both have an optimal bonus -Hawk has missile velocity. Hawk has what is typically seen on Minmatar ships -shield boost amount.
Retribution and Vengeance: Again, 1 turret ship, 1 missile ship like the Harpy/Hawk. Only Vengeance has the punisher armor resist bonus while the Retribution has only the cap redux for small energy turrets. Retribution has cap recharge bonus although it is a "missile spammer"
Enyo and Ishkur: Neither has the Falloff bonus of the Incursus, but decided to swap out for an optimal bonus.
Reworking the AF's with their T1 origins applied as best as possible and getting rid of the "resist to armor and shields" in favor of HAC level resistances of their race, we get the following:
Combat AF and Light AF. Each has a role bonus. Combat AF's gain a 25% ROF bonus. Light AF's gain a -25% signature resolution.
Combat AF: Role Bonus: +25% ROF
WOLF:
FRIG Bonus: 5% damage, 7.5% tracking
AF Bonus: 5% velocity, 10% falloff
HARPY:
FRIG Bonus: 5% shield resists, 10% optimal
AF Bonus: 10% optimal, 5% damage
Retribution:
FRIG Bonus: 10% SET cap use, 5% armor resists
AF Bonus: 5% damage, 10% optimal range
Enyo:
FRIG Bonus: 10% falloff, 5% damage
AF Bonus: 7.5% tracking, -5% mwd cap use per level
Light AF: Role Bonus -25% signature radius
JAG:
FRIG Bonus: 5% damage and 7.5% tracking
AF Bonus: 10% falloff, 7.5% shield boost amount per level
HAWK:
FRIG Bonus: 5% shield resists, 10% missile velocity
AF Bonus: 5% missile damage, 10% missile flight time
Vengeance:
FRIG Bonus: 5% armor resists, 5% rocket damage
AF Bonus: 5% rocket flight time, 5% rocket velocity
Ishkur: 35m drone bay
FRIG Bonus: 10% drone control range, 5% drone Damage
AF Bonus: 5% armor repair amount, 5% drone HP per level
=
I tried to convert the T1 ship bonuses as close as possible for ships like the hawk, vengeance, and ishkur whose T1 counterpart isn't a missile flinger or drone monger.
In all honesty, the vengeance is more like the inquisitor than punisher, the hawk closer to a kestrel or condor than merlin and Ishkur like the little imicus that could than an incursus.
CCP, what would it hurt to buff up the kestrel or condor model for the hawk, inquisitor for vengeance, and imicus for the ishkur?
-edit: K, ishkur does look all wrong with control range.
Ishkur: 35m drone bay
FRIG Bonus: 10% optimal, 10% drone Damage/HP
AF Bonus: 5% armor repair amount, -5% mwd cap use per level
THUKKER -Be Paranoid
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Aerin Cloudfayr
Extreme Addiction
Atrum Tempestas Foedus
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Posted - 2007.10.23 08:08:00 -
[40]
I'm inclined towards the web-immunity idea, or webs-only-affect-MWDs. Seriously, webs kill any kind of small ships' chances of survival vs larger ships waaay too much. Leave the little big guys alone, and O-SNAP MWD speed-freaks with webs instead 
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Skaaj
FireStar Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.23 09:08:00 -
[41]
How about making the role bonus to AF's like command ships but smaller, make a line of Command/support modules for Assault frigates, with smaller bonuses, or bonuses only to small ships (frigs, afrigs, inties and destroyers... maybe cov ops and interdictors too??)
then they could be usefull in gangs of small ships and certain area's of fleet battle (tacklers/anti tacklers)
good idea? bad idea?
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Dadoes
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.10.23 14:10:00 -
[42]
Fixing the mass & 4th bonus would be a great start and would make me a very happy chappy 
I guess the reason these have been neglected for so long maybe due to the confusion as to what role these should actually fit.. ..the web idea is interesting, but imho the true role should be less tackler more assault.. ..so it should be all about more tank/damage, maybe put the sig radius the same as inties and make them able to field a nice resistance tank..
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Cygnus Zhada
Amarr
The Wild Hunt
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Posted - 2007.11.16 21:47:00 -
[43]
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Vengeance: +25% missile range
And lose the mass
Welcome to EVE Online:
Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online
Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online
Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online
Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online |
Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.16 22:16:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Xilimyth Derlin
I like the idea of being immune to the web thing.... but what if you make em something interesting simultaneously. Something like: "Due to system hardening, equipping propulsion jamming modules nullifies this effect".
An assault frig without webs/scrams cannot be webbed or scrammed. The moment you try to equip one, that Role bonus disappears. Gives the AF a role without jumping into another.
This
--
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D3stroyer
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Posted - 2007.11.18 11:38:00 -
[45]
Just make them the new hacking / archeology spec ships 
With the release of the new ships, trying to fix them will be even harder!
R.I.P AF's
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Brucette
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Posted - 2007.11.18 14:55:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.18 15:11:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.
No thanks, every race getting a new nice potential semi solo AF and amarr gets stuck with 1? No, retri needs a 2nd mid or they should beef its damage by 25%.
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Erim Solfara
Amarr
House of Solfara
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Posted - 2007.11.18 15:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.
/signed
Originally by: Kruel
Honestly I wouldn't mind it if webbers only affected MWDs. It would give ABs a place in pvp combat. Though if it was an AF only change I'd be fine with that too.
AFs do need a buff. No point in flying one over a cruiser ATM.
interesting idea that I quite like
What about making one of the tiers a Fleet command AF? With the ability to fit a few ganglinks, maybe with some special low fitting-cost frigate ones, to promote frigate and small ship gangs? The AFs that aren't the primary damage dealers, Vengeance, Ishkur, Hawk, Jag could all gain the ability to fit one of two of these mods, (RoF/damage, speed/agility, sig radius reduction, that sort of thing?).
Maybe have these ganglinks only apply to frigates and perhaps destroyers?
A new tool in the fight for balance? |
Tonya Kitty
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Posted - 2007.11.18 17:00:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Isyel
Just change that damned resist bonus every other t2 ship has in by default to something useful.
God yes, AFs are the only T2 ship that are like that, why they have remained so is just insane.
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Skeiron
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Posted - 2007.11.18 17:17:00 -
[50]
At the moment there is really no point in buying an AF: They're expensive, detroyers out-gank it and nearly everything out-tanks it.
+75% to 100% damage role bonus
A tanking bonus.
This will more or less turn AFs into frig-sized ships with Destroyer-like damage and a bit more tank for a fair(er) price.
Wolf: 4 turretslots (+75% dmg) and a bit tankage
Thrasher: 7 turretslots and basically no tank
Wolf baseprice ISK 3,295,668.00 (according to item database)
Thrasher baseprice ISK 750,000.00
Will still die to webs but well, you can't have everything.
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Horus Isis
The Black Rabbits Academy
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2007.11.18 17:35:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Erim Solfara
interesting idea that I quite like
What about making one of the tiers a Fleet command AF? With the ability to fit a few ganglinks, maybe with some special low fitting-cost frigate ones, to promote frigate and small ship gangs? The AFs that aren't the primary damage dealers, Vengeance, Ishkur, Hawk, Jag could all gain the ability to fit one of two of these mods, (RoF/damage, speed/agility, sig radius reduction, that sort of thing?).
Maybe have these ganglinks only apply to frigates and perhaps destroyers?
/sign
i love frig gangs, and always will, making AF's mini commands makes a bit of sense to me
_______
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Satura
Caldari
Mucho Dolor
The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.11.18 18:50:00 -
[52]
Think i read i several posts that CCP will look into AF problem, but i think it will be after the release of Trinity. |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2007.11.18 19:01:00 -
[53]
I'd be tempted to say give them more tanking slots, I mean, theyre assault ships. I hear assault vehicle and I think armour plates 3 feet thick with guns welded on everywhere they could get an anchor. Ofc, more pawer.CPU would need to come with it.
Also, real 4th bonus. Rep amout, real resist bonus, whatev.
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Rixsta
Coreli Corporation
Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.18 19:21:00 -
[54]
It doesn't make a difference now with the Hyena due to come into play... But i would have liked to have seen AF given extended web range, makes them more viable as anti nano ships and anti support ships, especially in that most nano ships wouldn't be able to one volley an AF, the same way they can to a interceptor getting into web range. With the resistance bonus would of been a great nano tackler and anti dictor / inty ship for fleets.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.11.18 19:30:00 -
[55]
I like the idea of frigate/desty specific gang modules though for an af to fit multiple may be a waste of a good opportunity to get a sweet bonus like web resistance.
Ofcourse if the tank af has the ability to field one I would be all for it. Just remember that only one gang member gives out gang bonuses so what do you do with all the other af's.
That's why I always prefered the idea of a real t2 destroyer based on the current desties keep the sniper bonuses, have a rof bonus that negates the -25rof, add a racial tanking bonus and allow the fitting of 3 of those frig gang mods that sounded so good.
A t2 sniping dessie gang leader with a group of af's sounds cool.
AB + web resist would be the real I WIN. But the t2 resists must be native
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Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.18 20:49:00 -
[56]
Just repeating here what I've said many, many times (including on SHC, oh, a week ago).
People say that AF have no role. This is false. Their role is pretty clear (or at least what it should be), it's just that they do them not very well. What a assault frigate is, or should be, is a light HAC. In other words, they should do excellent damage for a ship of their size, and have tanks that are also excellent for a ship of their size. They are supposed to put weapons on target and tank the return damage. This is what a HAC does (generally). The problem with them is that unlike a HAC they are frigates, and therefore can't take huge damage. They are, after all, frigates. If you drew up a design document on these ships it should list the following:
1. Excellent firepower for a frigate sized vessel
2. Good speed, but not outstanding speed
3. Excellent tank for a frigate
Now, a key to this is a understanding of how 2 and 3 should interrelate. The speed of the ship must still be relatively high, because no matter what kind of tank that can be fitted, it still is a frigate. Any assault frigate will have frigate slots on it, therefore the ability to improve it's tank is limited because of the number of available slots to do so. Unlike the most closely comparable vessel, a HAC, you can't fit multiple resist modules or shield extenders or whatever. Therefore to succeed, an assault frigate must be a carefully constructed blend of both speed and tank; neither one can be too high or too low. The problem currently is that the tank is about right IMO but the speed is not even close. Additionally, the firepower is deficient as well in many cases so they don't do objective 1 well either. What makes this all worse is that they're missing a ship bonus, which just contributes to the problem the ship has. I'll demonstrate some with some numbers here about the problems with point 2 (the following use a 1mn microwarpdrive II and a character with nav 5 acceleration control 4, and no speed mods):
Caldari: Harpy - 1341m/s Hawk - 1351m/s Merlin - 1750m/s
Amarr: Vengeance - 1423m/s Retribution - 1512m/s Punisher - 1950m/s
Gallente: Enyo - 1512m/s Iskhur - 1550m/s Incursus - 2695m/s
Minmatar: Wolf - 1938m/s Jaguar - 2193m/s Rifter - 2875m/s
In addition, this data is also informative:
Thrasher - 1785m/s
Typhoon - 1425m/s (100mn MWD II, no speed mods)
The above is interesting data to say the least. You can see that assault frigates are universally slower than their base hulls, in some cases, quite significantly. Second, that a thrasher - a ship of a larger hull size - is faster than 3/4 of all assault frigates. Third - and possibly most interesting in this area - is that a typhoon, a battleship, is faster than 3 of them and only about 75 to 100m/s slower than 3 more. This shows that one of the big problems with these ships is they are too damn slow do perform their given role; if a stock BS can outrun a frigate, then the frigate is not that useful.
Bluntly, they need a speed boost. While no one advocates that they should be interceptors, they need to do about 2.5km/sec w/ a MWD, minimum, and the fast ones (minmatar) should prob do about 3km/sec. This gives them the ability to manuver and work as skirmish weapons, plus have the speed to try to combat small frigates such as interceptors which with the inty changes that are coming, will be even more important.
The next issue they have is the firepower issue, combined with the lack of the bonus they have. Some ships have crappy slot layout as well which doesn't help them either (retribution), or bonuses that make little sense when you look at the ship (wolf, jaguar). I'll address that issue below with the following ideas:
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Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.18 20:50:00 -
[57]
Hawk: -1 highslot, +1 midslot, - 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per AF level, + 10% bonus to rocket and missile explosion velocity per frigate level and 5% bonus to light missile and rocket damage per AF level.
Reason: Firepower on this ship is too low. 5th highslot pretty much is useless, adding to mid increases tank on slowest AF. Explosion velocity assists in killing small fast targets. Shield boost amount is a minmatar bonus.
Harpy: + 5% bonus to shield resists per frigate level.
Reason: Mini moa.
Vengeance: Move 5% bonus to armor resistances per AF level to frigate level. + 10% bonus to rocket velocity per AF level.
Reason: Gives a bit of standoff range to rocket setup, which is the limiting factor on rockets.
Retribution: -1 highslot, +1 midslot. + 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret damage per AF level.
Reason: Removes mostly useless high slot and gives limited tackle capability to ship. Adds additional damage. Gankalicious.
Enyo: + 5% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret damage per AF level.
Reason: Gives a high damage turret ship to gallente for killing interceptors with rails, which will be needed if you're going to have 28km orbiting interceptors.
Ishkur: Replace 10% optimal range bonus per AF level with 10% falloff per frigate level. + 10% drone speed per AF level.
Reason: Gallente are the short range hybrid race, and caldari the long range hybrid race. In addition, as anyone who has used drones previously can tell you, they're not long range weapons. Drone speed gives the ability to actually catch that 8km/sec crow and make an effective attack. In addition, if you need to GTFO in this ship it means the drones get back to the bay quick, which is needed frequently in skirmish attacks.
Wolf: Replace 10% falloff per AF level with 10% optimal range. + 7.5% bonus to tracking per frigate level.
Reason: Wolf is used as the arty boat in practice, and arty has miserable tracking up close. This addresses this issue.
Jaguar: Replace 10% optimal per AF level with 10% falloff range. + 7.5% bonus to tracking per frigate level.
Reason: Jag is used as the autocannon platform; additional tracking needed to ensure that targets can be hit at the speeds the fastest of AF can reach
Do that, and you'll pretty much have some useful ships again.
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Stuart Price
Caldari
Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.18 23:15:00 -
[58]
I feel inclined to point out at this juncture that af's are not completely useless atm. My harpy tears through other frigs like a chainsaw at all the ranges that matter.
If it was web immune then most cruisers and battlecruisers would have a very real reason to fear my appearance in local since 600m/s (AB), unwebbable, with frigate sig radius at close range will out-track most medium/large guns with ease.
If they got a mass/size reduction I'd be even happier since I'd go faster still and take less damage from missiles.
There is the danger they'd become heavy tacklers but that's not necessarily bad considering the interdictor-> heavy interdictor progression.
A crazy idea that just popped into my head is how about making them immune to e-war (damps, ECM etc but not scrams obviously)? That makes them true anti-support ships specialising in taking out hostile interceptors and recons alike. This would very likely be insanely overpowered in practice though.
"I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
Alko Shan
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Posted - 2007.11.18 23:38:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Alko Shan on 18/11/2007 23:38:41
Originally by: Brucette
Originally by: Cygnus Zhada
Retribution; -1 high, +1 midslot
Tackling is for interceptors. Leave those slots alone.
I have to agree with Brucette - I really like the Retribution slot layout as it is. It's the only laser AF in the game with a utility slot - would be sad to see it lose that. :-(
Tackling is handy too of course but there are lots of other AF's that can do it, and only one Retribution.
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Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2007.11.18 23:44:00 -
[60]
I can think of lots of stuff to put in that extra mid other than tackle. Cap battery anyone (or recharger if that don't fit)?
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.11.19 00:06:00 -
[61]
Glad to see another 'buff AF's' thread. 
I would like to see-
4th bonus
Weight reduction
Web Immunity Bonus
AB Bonus
Very good ideas taking the above into account in this thread...i really hope CCP are listening. 
Please CCP, please.
Sort it out yeah?
Kthanksbye.
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'The thing always happens that you really believe in... and the belief in a thing makes it happen' - Frank Loyd Wright |
LUH 3471
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Posted - 2007.11.19 00:16:00 -
[62]
Edited by: LUH 3471 on 19/11/2007 00:18:47
id like to see assault frigs doing more damage overall and having better speed
plus having some special bonus which i cant make my mind up about yet
also sokrateszs idea sounds good to me
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Kantos Dal'mak
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Posted - 2007.11.19 00:57:00 -
[63]
just keeping the thread on top
AFs need to be buffed- i'll risk sounding like a parrot and repeat
add a 4th bonus and reduce the mass on the ships. im looking at my enyo and thinking "there's no way that thing weighs that much" I'd like to have a more useable ship than what AFs are currently offering... of course it may be that im sore about getting AF 5 and realizing that i should have gone with interceptors 5 first...
CCP fix AF!
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6Bagheera9
Slacker Industries
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.11.19 06:33:00 -
[64]
Just give them back their 4th bonus and boost ABs (which need a boost outside of the context of AFs anyway.)Its better to tweak things rather than redo the game every patch.
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Saietor Blackgreen
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Posted - 2007.11.19 09:29:00 -
[65]
Bump!
1) Build-in resist roles
2) Put back the base boni of T1 counterpart
3) Reduce mass/increase speed to T1 counterpart's level
Concerning AB - I dont think AF need bonus of any kind regarding AB. I strongly believe that the whole system of Web-AB-MWD need to be reworked. Webs should not affect top speed of the ship directly. They should reduce it to much lesser extent, BUT hit the efficiency of MWD big time.
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