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Excuse me waiter... why are we nerfing torpedos again??

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James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.18 19:46:00 - [31] Edited by: James Lyrus on 18/10/2007 19:47:55 Rockets -> HAMS -> Torps = High damage, High RoF, short range. Light missiles -> heavy missiles -> cruise missiles = Lower damage, longer range, better precision. Torps were always a midrange weapon (in terms of damage) with a long range damage profile. Making them short range in damage, and actual range is awesome and wonderful - if you need the range, switch to your long range weapons, like every other race has to. In short: NOT A NERF. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Admiral Pelleon Caldari White Shadow Imperium Burning Horizons	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:48:00 - [32] Originally by: Megadon Hey, if you think caldari are the shortrange fighting race man, there's nothing much I have to say to you anyways. What a bunch of smacktards. Rockets -> HAMS -> Torps What part of SHORT RANGE HIGH DAMAGE do you not understand? ________ "It's a good day to die!" Free cake and punch to whomever signs my sig!
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:53:00 - [33] I would have rather had the 530 radius on t1s, and the old javelins though
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:56:00 - [34] Originally by: NoNah 4. Cruises easily do more damage than Rails, Beams and Artilleries. Your argument here is like saying Blasters easily do more damage than rails. Completely irrelevant. Indeed. However a Rail Domi set up right can do a good deal more damage out to 40km, probably still at 50km, then a Faction Cruise CNR at moderate skill levels, but only thermal damage, with a little Kin from rails. Admittedly the Domi setup I have in mind is not a solo ship (weak tank that lasts under 2 minutes, but it was enough), while the Cruise CNR has huge fitting tolerance, allowing you to fit whatever tank you want and even cap boost it. The faction siege cnr setup exceeded both ships by quite a lot, in paper dps, and reportedly in practice as well. I would have had zero problems choosing between the two weapon systems as they are now. The Caldari whining about PvP shortcomings and the ones now whining about a definitive deathknell for mission Torps are not the same people. Despite my portrait and race, I cross trained for Caldari missile boats, after I discovered a roof on usable dps in my Domi. Now that I've trained for a cnr, they are making it similar, and even inferior in certain limited situations to said Domi. That's a bloody big nerf. Maybe I have to start reading up on Amarr ships possibilities.
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:59:00 - [35] If you guys read the thread in the Ships & Modules section about the torp changes you'll find that it was shown with the rate of fire boost (shoot faster) that you still do more damage with torps even with the explosion radius increase. Of course they are also shorter range now but whatever. The nerf is pretty much to their range and that's all as far as I can tell. Unless something else changed besides range, explosion radius, and rate of fire. --- Put in space whales!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.10.18 21:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Danjira Ryuujin I would have rather had the 530 radius on t1s, and the old javelins though I still think if they made javelins basically cruise missiles, then they would be fine. Lower DPS, because sieges are worse on rate of fire, but ... well, a source of versatility, at a bit of a penalty. Of course, that's before they were looking at the current changes, so hey ho. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:03:00 - [37] 1)compare new torpedoes to autocannons, blasters and pulse lasers 2) ?? 3) profit! its a goddman closerange weapon system, and its a BUFFFFFFFFF now go out and pvp instead of whoring missions Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:06:00 - [38] Oh, and if all they wanted was to add shortrange PvP capability, they could have adjusted solely the Rage torps to that effect, and left everyting else alone. But no, they clearly want the Raven nerfed for missions as well.
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:11:00 - [39] Originally by: Qui Shon Oh, and if all they wanted was to add shortrange PvP capability, they could have adjusted solely the Rage torps to that effect, and left everyting else alone. But no, they clearly want the Raven nerfed for missions as well. It's not like the raven needed a buff in the PVE area. Cruise missiles will do missions just fine albeit a bit slower when theres lots of battleships around. Paradox V2.0 is recruiting!
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:13:00 - [40] Originally by: Sokratesz It's not like the raven needed a buff in the PVE area. Cruise missiles will do missions just fine albeit a bit slower when theres lots of battleships around. No, it didn't, and nobody has asked for that, at any point I'm aware of. It could have stayed exactly like it is for PvE, though.
Tammarr	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:17:00 - [41] the pvp squad drools over their phoon, the missionrunners whom play happily content and dont moan on the forums and is just briefly starting to realize that something is going to happen, and they are ****ed.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sokratesz It's not like the raven needed a buff in the PVE area. Cruise missiles will do missions just fine albeit a bit slower when theres lots of battleships around. No, it didn't, and nobody has asked for that, at any point I'm aware of. It could have stayed exactly like it is for PvE, though. Why should Caldari be better than everybody else at PvE? Caldari players have long assumed this is some sort of natural right they had(and everybody else and their mother trained for raven to PvE).
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Sokratesz It's not like the raven needed a buff in the PVE area. Cruise missiles will do missions just fine albeit a bit slower when theres lots of battleships around. No, it didn't, and nobody has asked for that, at any point I'm aware of. It could have stayed exactly like it is for PvE, though. Why shouldnt the torps be nerfed for pve ravens a tiny little bit? Oh noes you have to use cruise missile to afk pve. Why is it in your opinion wrong to nerf 1 races superior pve ability (this you cant deny, you cant deny the tens of thousands of mission running ravens) to bring it closer in line with the other races?
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:45:00 - [44] Edited by: Qui Shon on 18/10/2007 22:58:05 Originally by: Gamesguy Why should Caldari be better than everybody else at PvE? Caldari players have long assumed this is some sort of natural right they had(and everybody else and their mother trained for raven to PvE). Well, that's a reason right there, everybody trained Raven for that, including me. And now some of us feel cheated. Now I realize the need for balance in PvP (even though it isn't a reality and probably never will be) but that need isn't as strong in PvE, since I won't loose my ship if the other guy has a slightly stronger setup. Gal and Minnie are stronger in PvP, Caldari and to some extent Amarr in PvE. Since I really like drones and am looking towards close range combat I train the best possible setup that fills those wants, my Domi. I also want the best possible missionrunning ship, to eek out every last 0.5% effectiveness given certain isk/sp limits, so I train for that ship, the CNR. That's how it should be, research, goal, plan, excecution. Not this ever swinging, all equalizing nerfbat that swings whether it's needed or not, and that invalidates plans before they are complete. It seems to me people are way too hung up on race and faction. Caldari have this, Gallente have that, whine whine. Skills are open to all, just buy and train. (As long as it's not grossly overpowered for PvP) Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Oh noes you have to use cruise missile to afk pve. Though your attitude here is hardly worth responding to, please understand I don't have to do anything. I can use cruise, or I can use my Domi, which for some missions beats a Cruise CNR. There's no sense using Torps if you're going to afk.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:52:00 - [45] Originally by: Qui Shon Well, that's a reason right there, everybody trained Raven for that, including me. And now some of us feel cheated. Now I realize the need for balance in PvP (even though it isn't a reality and probably never will be) but that need isn't as strong in PvE, since I won't loose my ship if the other guy has a slightly stronger setup. Gal and Minnie are stronger in PvP, Caldari and to some extent Amarr in PvE. Since I really like drones and am looking towards close range combat I train the best possible setup that fills those wants, my Domi. I also want the best possible missionrunning ship, to eek out every last 0.5% effectiveness given certain isk/sp limits, so I train for that ship, the CNR. That's how it should be, research, goal, plan, excecution. Not this ever swinging, all equalizing nerfbat that swings whether it's needed or not, and that invalidates plans before they are complete. It seems to me people are way too hung up on race and faction. Caldari have this, Gallente have that, whine whine. Skills are open to all, just buy and train. I trained for the old pre-nerf nano-phoon to get the most powerful solo-pwnmobile in the game, I demand my old nanophoon back Caldari PvE is too powerful, Caldari PvP at the BS level is too weak, ccp corrected the imbalance.
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:59:00 - [46] Anyone who feels that these changes are a nerf is welcome to come and fight the torpraven I'll be setting up once these changes go live. Bring all the long range weapons you want. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 22:59:00 - [47] Edited by: Qui Shon on 18/10/2007 22:59:57 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Qui Shon Now I realize the need for balance in PvP (even though it isn't a reality and probably never will be) but that need isn't as strong in PvE, since I won't loose my ship if the other guy has a slightly stronger setup. I trained for the old pre-nerf nano-phoon to get the most powerful solo-pwnmobile in the game, I demand my old nanophoon back Please read what you quote.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:07:00 - [48] Originally by: Qui Shon Though your attitude here is hardly worth responding to, please understand I don't have to do anything. I can use cruise, or I can use my Domi, which for some missions beats a Cruise CNR. There's no sense using Torps if you're going to afk. TBH, the Megathron and Abbadon are both better than them both in certain missions. Does that mean you're going to train up all those skills to 5 just for that last 0.5% efficiency in those missions? Seriously, this is not a nerf... it's a huge and colossal boost IMHO. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:19:00 - [49] Originally by: Liang Nuren TBH, the Megathron and Abbadon are both better than them both in certain missions. Does that mean you're going to train up all those skills to 5 just for that last 0.5% efficiency in those missions? They'll nerf it if I do. Haven't looked at the Abaddon, but Mega comes out slightly behind the Domi. Not a big difference. Quote: Seriously, this is not a nerf... it's a huge and colossal boost IMHO. Liang It's funny that people keep reiterating that. It's obviously a nerf for missioning, and probably a boost for PvP. It's not one or the other, it's both.
Hardtail Red Dawn Empire Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:24:00 - [50] Well its a good thing the OP diddint wanna argue against it -_-'
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:24:00 - [51] Originally by: Qui Shon It's funny that people keep reiterating that. It's obviously a nerf for missioning, and probably a boost for PvP. It's not one or the other, it's both. Well, even if it were strictly and entirely a nerf for PVE, it would be completely fine and acceptable. The torp Raven is wtfimba. And you know what? Your PVE missioning IS PVP. The devs have said it, and it's true in any case. Now, 40km is a fairly impressive range, and I remember that I've done a fair number of level 4's at about 60km range in my Drake. It wasn't so bad ... and 4x the damage output would sure make short work of those battleships before they even closed on me. If you wait and try it out, it may end up being an overall boost to the mission Raven. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:25:00 - [52] Originally by: Qui Shon Edited by: Qui Shon on 18/10/2007 23:16:16 Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Qui Shon Now I realize the need for balance in PvP (even though it isn't a reality and probably never will be) but that need isn't as strong in PvE, since I won't loose my ship if the other guy has a slightly stronger setup. I trained for the old pre-nerf nano-phoon to get the most powerful solo-pwnmobile in the game, I demand my old nanophoon back Please read what you quote. In any case, it's not like I can't get over it, but I sure as hell don't have to like it. I'm also left wondering how many times in the future I'll be in this very same situation. Is there even any point in making long, nay, medium term plans? Right now I dumped about 1/7th of my total SP and time in this game to get a decent Torp Raven. If the change had come a month or two ago, I'd be happily using T2 Sentries and maybe T2 heavies as well today, instead of either needing to train yet another weapon or just consider it a loss of sp and focus on different ships/setups. 500k SP(give or take) is 1/7 of your total SP? Then the problem is lvl 4s are too easy for a 3 months old noob to get into. I finished torp 5 about 2 weeks before the first javelin nerf(which was much needed), did I whine? No, I adapted and moved on. Always knew it would eventually be useful to have it one day.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.18 23:29:00 - [53] Originally by: Gamesguy 500k SP(give or take) is 1/7 of your total SP? Then the problem is lvl 4s are too easy for a 3 months old noob to get into. I finished torp 5 about 2 weeks before the first javelin nerf(which was much needed), did I whine? No, I adapted and moved on. Always knew it would eventually be useful to have it one day. No, I'm a 7 month noob of ~11mil SP, and used more then 1 month to train for torp raven, including Caldari BS. The 1/7th was not an exact figure.
Centurion1	Posted - 2007.10.19 00:01:00 - [54] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Gamesguy 500k SP(give or take) is 1/7 of your total SP? Then the problem is lvl 4s are too easy for a 3 months old noob to get into. I finished torp 5 about 2 weeks before the first javelin nerf(which was much needed), did I whine? No, I adapted and moved on. Always knew it would eventually be useful to have it one day. No, I'm a 7 month noob of ~11mil SP, and used more then 1 month to train for torp raven, including Caldari BS. The 1/7th was not an exact figure. Oh poor you ccp nerfed the nearly afk mission boat....
Atama Cardel GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.19 00:53:00 - [55] Originally by: Megadon Originally by: Vireti Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Megadon 2. other missile types? what are you smoking? My heavy missiles can fly 85 km. HAMS are a minority. A specialized exception, not the rule when it comes to range. Heavy missiles are longrange weapons. Sshhh he's already confused. You're making it worse Hey, if you think caldari are the shortrange fighting race man, there's nothing much I have to say to you anyways. What a bunch of smacktards. Were you dropped on your head as a child? Originally by: Odda hey im a gonnie and i like to sue CCP to gett the game to my favor
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.19 01:00:00 - [56] Edited by: d026 on 19/10/2007 00:59:49 Originally by: Megadon So why are we nerfing torps again? Not so much interested in argueing against it, as I'm interested in discovering the logic behind it as CCP sees it. One of the roles I see disappearing from Caldari due to this is the role of the long range damage dealer to POS stuff and capital ships. Caldari are pretty much specialized for longer range combat so this seems a significant departure from past. I think the change is more of a range thing than a damage thing because tech 2 torp launchers with faction torps and some nice BCS's deal a boatload of damage. So it's not as if torps needed more buffing in the damage department. ... and lastly, is this because of the Electronic Arts influence we've been seeing at CCP? IT A BUFF! ITS PROBABLY THE BEST THING HAPPENED TO CALDARI FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS!
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.19 01:14:00 - [57] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 19/10/2007 00:59:49 Originally by: Megadon So why are we nerfing torps again? Not so much interested in argueing against it, as I'm interested in discovering the logic behind it as CCP sees it. One of the roles I see disappearing from Caldari due to this is the role of the long range damage dealer to POS stuff and capital ships. Caldari are pretty much specialized for longer range combat so this seems a significant departure from past. I think the change is more of a range thing than a damage thing because tech 2 torp launchers with faction torps and some nice BCS's deal a boatload of damage. So it's not as if torps needed more buffing in the damage department. ... and lastly, is this because of the Electronic Arts influence we've been seeing at CCP? IT A BUFF! ITS PROBABLY THE BEST THING HAPPENED TO CALDARI FOR THE LAST FEW YEARS! I bet the best thing through time, happening to caldari, is caps lock, right? Postcount: 483815 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.19 01:20:00 - [58] Originally by: Sevis Caldari pilots complain. Don't generalize. This caldari pilot is among many who aren't complaining. Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.19 01:50:00 - [59] Originally by: Incantare Caldari pilots complain. NoNah complains about Caldari pilots complaining. And thus the whines go full circle . Indeed sadly the circle is unbalanced 150'000 to 1. =) Postcount: 408788 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Brea Lafail	Posted - 2007.10.19 04:43:00 - [60] Holy crap, this is a torpedo buff, not a nerf. You want range? Use cruises, that's what they're for. Want to pop a carrier? Fit a MWD like most other BSs do and Im sure you'll manage to catch up with it. Even if it was a nerf, did I whine and moan when speedmods got nerved (I fly minmatar primarily)? Nooo, I didn't. So stop making threads about this. Its been discussed. Now go back to your missions. P.S. I didnt bother reading all billion pages of this thread, this is just a general reply to all the bajillion threads about this topic. Also, bajillion is bigger that billion, incase you were wondering.

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