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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:25:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 24/02/2004 08:29:40
The shiva patch didn't work at balancing ship classes, people still use nothing but battleships for PvP.
What if these ships were more durable? I think that might help, 50% isn't a lot really, they still would be far inferior to battleships in defenses and hi/mid/low slots and firepower, but they will atleast have some more staying power in combat.
Right now frigates have speed, but a lucky shot from a battleship is game over for them and cruisers lack speed and firepower to even think about hanging with battleships, only the blackbird is of any use, as a pure support ship.
What do you guys think?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
KamiCrazy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:30:00 -
[2]
I think the problem comes from battleships being able to mine.
They should create a "mining hardpoint" and make it so that no battleships have any of those hardpoints.
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Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:36:00 -
[3]
Why should most people use anything less then the biggest stick around for fighting?
Execptions: special purpose ships like krestals, caracals and blackbirds. And these are something like the "biggest stick" in special capabilities or cost effetivity.
No one will voluntier to face a assault rifle armed guy with a old musket
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Dukath
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:37:00 -
[4]
Linking tracking of guns to signature radius of the ship would go a long way to bring back frigates. The description of the interceptor hints to that but i doubt its actually implemented since some battleships still have an insanely high hit ration against an interceptor orbiting at 5000km with a speed over 600m/sec
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:38:00 -
[5]
 Quote:
Why should most people use anything less then the biggest stick around for fighting?
Execptions: special purpose ships like krestals, caracals and blackbirds. And these are something like the "biggest stick" in special capabilities or cost effetivity.
No one will voluntier to face a assault rifle armed guy with a old musket
Why does the army use infantry? Why not just put everyone in tanks? Infantry can do things a tank obviously can't.
It's reasoning such as yours that has turned PVP in EVE into a huge battleship slugfest. I would like to see more tactics and diversity, to be honest.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:42:00 -
[6]
yes and what part of the army has the highest loss rate?
armies use infantry also because they are cheap to maintain and fast to get.
as soon as a state has money it will upgrade this foot guys to special trained guys, motorised, airmobile or mechanised infantry.
Only the poorest states use pure plain leg infantry and these poor guys will not survive long on a battlefield.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:43:00 -
[7]
you are right combined arms is missing here but on a more personally centered game thats hard to achive.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:45:00 -
[8]
Quote:
yes and what part of the army has the highest loss rate?
armies use infantry also because they are cheap to maintain and fast to get.
as soon as a state has money it will upgrade this foot guys to special trained guys, motorised, airmobile or mechanised infantry.
Only the poorest states use pure plain leg infantry and these poor guys will not survive long on a battlefield.
So what you are saying is that frigates and cruisers should have no tactical relevence what so ever in combat, even though todays navys obviously use submarines, frigates, destroyers, and cruisers in support of aircraft carriers (naval battleships are more or less obsolete).
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:48:00 -
[9]
i do not say this.
speical purpose ships have thier place. btu its the nature of things that people want the biggest newest best stuff.
its natural. you can force them to use other stuff only by making the "other stuff" de facto the best stuff around.
then you end up with something named battleship and the real battleships
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:53:00 -
[10]
yes but a today frigate is larger then a WW2 destroyer and nearly a light crusier in size in most cases.
give a amiral unlimited resource and you end up with the big stuff. Example Norfork class anti submarine cruiser of the USA navy build at teh end of WW2 and to late to join the fightin.
what limits stuff is economics and the need to cover wide areas of course to show the flag in peace or to protect stuff at war.
econmics is a factor here to.
But as a role play games any player would prefere a battle ship to a frigatte in a show of flag mission.
Btw i use my frigates and cruiser for special jobs but i enjoy flying my real big toy. call it childish but thats the way it is.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 08:59:00 -
[11]
Quote:
(naval battleships are more or less obsolete).
the soviet kirow class ships could be called battle crusier but not even the US Navy could afford such a ship and carriers. so they made a choise for carriers and refitting some half a century old battleships. the reason the USN canceled the planned strike crusier (modern battleship/battle crusier equivalent) was money and not lack of interest. They had allready assigned hull numbers to them. The gap in the numbering sequence of crusiers. money rules the world.
here you can concentrate your resources so players go for quality instead of quantity
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:02:00 -
[12]
every one able to get a battle ship could afford several crusiers but he can only ONE ship at a time. so why stay in less then what seems best for a certain task. in many cases this is a battleship.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:09:00 -
[13]
Carriers is another example for this in real live.
Earlier you got light, escort and fleet carriers. Now every navy uses the biggest carrier it can get.
Take the fate of the suggest Sea Control ship (basicly a escort carrier) in the 70s and earily 80s. it was killed in order to have more of the big sticks (nimitz class).
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:11:00 -
[14]
I think its stupid balancing when I kill a cruiser before I can activate my 6Šth turret at 60km range.
Cruisers should be upped in HP.
Spawn of the Devil
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:11:00 -
[15]
so.. now Cruiser will last 4 shot more then before?
grate idea 
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Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:20:00 -
[16]
Quote:
I think its stupid balancing when I kill a cruiser before I can activate my 6Šth turret at 60km range.
Cruisers should be upped in HP.
Or lower battleship weapons - this would archive the same.
Anyway this will lead only to a endless circle of lowering/highering values of arms/ships/classes.
What you want is to make battleships less powerful or convert them to level 4/5 crusiers in the end. next step is to complain why a moa can kill a osprey fast. Or why a cruiser can kill a frigate so fast.
As long as you have different sizes the bigger side has more punch. The only realy balance would be that we all sit in the same "default" ship. Somehow i dont think this would be a lot of fun.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:26:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
I think its stupid balancing when I kill a cruiser before I can activate my 6Šth turret at 60km range.
Cruisers should be upped in HP.
Or lower battleship weapons - this would archive the same.
Anyway this will lead only to a endless circle of lowering/highering values of arms/ships/classes.
What you want is to make battleships less powerful or convert them to level 4/5 crusiers in the end. next step is to complain why a moa can kill a osprey fast. Or why a cruiser can kill a frigate so fast.
As long as you have different sizes the bigger side has more punch. The only realy balance would be that we all sit in the same "default" ship. Somehow i dont think this would be a lot of fun.
Battleships already have enough difficulty taking down other battleships, it's quite balanced atm.. 1v1 a battleship vs a battleship the fight can go on for quite a while.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:28:00 -
[18]
Quote:
so.. now Cruiser will last 4 shot more then before?
grate idea
What would you suggest, troll?
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:31:00 -
[19]
he is right about the net effect.
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:34:00 -
[20]
Quote:
he is right about the net effect.
better than nothing, it would effectively increase say a Moa's shields from 1200 to 1800 + skills, well you get much better defense, enough defenses perhaps to warrant some degree of shield tanking, which I do believe most cruiser pilots ignore because if a bship locks them they are dead anyways.
frigates/cruisers would still be downright cheap
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Nicholas Marshal
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:52:00 -
[21]
Large BS guns need to have virtually 0 chance of hitting a frigate at speed.
This would make frigates deadly to an unescorted Battleship.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:56:00 -
[22]
i agree totally Jim, i have suggested something like this but didnt get any respons... but i also belive that they should increase the dmg of Small and Medium guns... at least their range must get a little higher...
"We brake for nobody"
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 09:56:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Siddy on 24/02/2004 09:58:08
Quote:
Quote:
so.. now Cruiser will last 4 shot more then before?
grate idea
What would you suggest, troll?
no rili... orher day i was killing peeps... a single moa took Incredible Beating from me . i still cant believe my eyes 
that thing took like 10 cruisemissiles and several 1400mm hits from optimal range, and survived. when i chekked logs, the thing took like 3000 damage
i dont know what u are thinkking.. but tire 3 cruisers are fairly durable at the moment
The thing i am sugjesting is that CCP whuld change the Wrekking hit Formula: so that u cant land Wrekking hits on MWD frigsate if u cant hit the thing in first plase  (and nerf the Heavy drones to not hit so well on fast targets either...they are Heavy drones after all)
but comparing the Damage Caracal can cause and the damage it can take i dont rili see the need for major HP boost....
Maybe a upgrating they Shield/armor Resistance by 10%/15% in all areas (Smaller Shield bubble is easier to generate and modulate its resistance)
whuld make intresting option and enable to use Tankked Cruisers
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:01:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Siddy on 24/02/2004 10:02:40
Besides.. lets face it
Cruisers are just abaut the right size targets for BS guns to Chew in few wolleys...
in fleetbattles they may got advantage for Being low profile targets and left alone .. but i dont know...
too durable cruisers arent good thing either..
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:03:00 -
[25]
the movies i have seen frigates and cruisers r always targeted when spotted, 1-4 volleys and its dead!
"We brake for nobody"
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Omniwar
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:03:00 -
[26]
Quote:
Large BS guns need to have virtually 0 chance of hitting a frigate at speed.
Already almost 0% chance of hitting a mwd frigate even if he is going in a straight line away from you.
Quote:
This would make frigates deadly to an unescorted Battleship.
Enough frigates are deadly to any ship, even a tanked out raven, I and few mates knew of 11 frigates coming to fountain so we decided to go and meet them, I jumped in first in my raven with FOF cruise missiles, when I landed at the other side I activated my hardeners asap and then my launchers, after about 5 seconds I dropping shields fast so I activated my XL booster but didnt work, I lost all but 10% shields in about 25-30 seconds and then I finally could warp out because many of the frigs weree dead and my mates were at the scene killing the rest.
Note that we knew the first one in would take a beating and be warp jammed, target jammed and webbed and I had the best ship setup to counter that so I went in first to be their main target to allow the rest to come in and kill them.
Spawn of the Devil
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:06:00 -
[27]
Quote:
Quote:
Large BS guns need to have virtually 0 chance of hitting a frigate at speed.
Already almost 0% chance of hitting a mwd frigate even if he is going in a straight line away from you.
Quote:
This would make frigates deadly to an unescorted Battleship.
Enough frigates are deadly to any ship, even a tanked out raven, I and few mates knew of 11 frigates coming to fountain so we decided to go and meet them, I jumped in first in my raven with FOF cruise missiles, when I landed at the other side I activated my hardeners asap and then my launchers, after about 5 seconds I dropping shields fast so I activated my XL booster but didnt work, I lost all but 10% shields in about 25-30 seconds and then I finally could warp out because many of the frigs weree dead and my mates were at the scene killing the rest.
Note that we knew the first one in would take a beating and be warp jammed, target jammed and webbed and I had the best ship setup to counter that so I went in first to be their main target to allow the rest to come in and kill them.
now... imagine that horde supportted by 2 BS's 
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TWD
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:06:00 -
[28]
Frigates are *very* useful in locking down battleships, while being too fast for missiles to impact, for most L turrets to track.
But when people use drones on them, frigates become kinda useless..
Maybe make a defence against drones for frigates..
Like ECM Bursts, that disable drones for x amount of seconds
Wouldnt say cruisers arent used.. they can have quite some firepower,
and are able to dampen/jam battleships
If you can afford/fly a battleship.. why fly a cruiser/frigate? |
Iluyen
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:07:00 -
[29]
What I don't understand is why people think a 100k isk frigate should have any chance against a 100 million isk BS. 3 or 4 cruisers have a very good chance of killing a BS as it is, I don't see why they should get better odds.
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ElCoCo
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:09:00 -
[30]
Quote:
i agree totally Jim, i have suggested something like this but didnt get any respons... but i also belive that they should increase the dmg of Small and Medium guns... at least their range must get a little higher...
I don`t think they need to increase their damage...
Medium turret DOT compared to large turrets is not 1/4th as their HP`s are.
Actualy their DOT can be sometimes better than large turrets due to better tracking... their staying power is just short.
I would agree on increasing the effect that ship size and transversal velocity has on the probability to hit.
Increasing HP`s sounds like a half-measure.
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