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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:09:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Siddy on 24/02/2004 11:06:16
 Quote:
Frigates are *very* useful in locking down battleships, while being too fast for missiles to impact, for most L turrets to track.
But when people use drones on them, frigates become kinda useless..
Maybe make a defence against drones for frigates..
Like ECM Bursts, that disable drones for x amount of seconds
Wouldnt say cruisers arent used.. they can have quite some firepower,
and are able to dampen/jam battleships
If you can afford/fly a battleship.. why fly a cruiser/frigate?
MAN got point.. but usualy if peep got BS.. he will prefer to use it over Cruiser or friggy....
and if he dont have BS.. he wont fight.. he whuld just sit and mine it like a good carebear
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 10:10:00 -
[32]
when frigates use mwd's they sacrifice lots of firepower they could have...
"We brake for nobody"
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 11:05:00 -
[33]
i can fit 3 M-12 in MWD breacher No problem.....
and even one 200mm plate just in case 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.24 11:14:00 -
[34]
"Or lower battleship weapons - this would archive the same."
There's really not enough difference in how much damage you can do with different turret classes, to allow that. Increasing the endurance of cruisers/frigates would be nice, though.
Mind you, i think the main problem is, in the large battles everyone targets frigates/cruisers first because they know those ships are weaker, so there's more chance to kill them before they warp out... and it will be something to write on the score board. And hardly surprising the smaller ships die in few seconds when fired at by number of battleships. ^^;
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sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.02.24 11:44:00 -
[35]
heavy Drones are a great threat for fregate. they never miss, lock very fast. a fregate can live 6 secondes at 15Km from a BS with drones. A nerf is needed on some parameters (takes a long time to lock a fregates. , often miss fregates).
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Severe McCald
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:13:00 -
[36]
Quote:
What I don't understand is why people think a 100k isk frigate should have any chance against a 100 million isk BS.
For the same reason that one guy armed with a $2000 rocket launcher can destroy a $20 million jet. Sometimes money can't buy the game (in RL). Although it does in Eve.
Severe
And Moses was content to dwell with the man:and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. And she bare him a son, and he called his name Gershom:for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land. |
Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:27:00 -
[37]
Quote:
i can fit 3 M-12 in MWD breacher No problem.....
and even one 200mm plate just in case
fitting launcher's isnt a problem, they use like 3 PG and 10 CPU, what about the 280mm, Neutron Blaster, Heavy Beam and even the 150mm?
"We brake for nobody"
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Rahzelk
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:27:00 -
[38]
Armor boost for frigs and cruiser seems very good idea !
I would add : the difference in speed isn't enought.
Cruisers are way too slow. They should go at least at 350m/s without any boost.
Same goes for frigs, they should have a base speed of 700.
While battleship shouldn't be over 100m/s (isn't is BIG ??)...
and yes, battleship hits frigates way too easily....
(elegance-corp.net)
Do not look where you fell, but where you slipped. |
Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:51:00 -
[39]
Increase hit points to frigates and cruisers and what do you have? - Small battleships.
I agree that fleet combat should contain a mix of ship types, but to achieve this you have to give people better reasons to do so.
I think we should have more specialist weapons/mods available specifically for fleet combat. How about powerful short range (<5km) ecm units for frigates that hamper affected ships ability to target other ships. Or sensor relays that allow smaller craft to boost the targeting/tracking ability of allied battleships.
Another idea is to have the ability to get inside a ship's 'shield radius', which would vary dependent on the class of ship (say 500m for frigs, 1km for cruisers, 2.5k for bs) This would be of minimal use for like v like combat, but would allow smaller, faster ships the ability to bypass shields and deal real damage.
Any thoughts?
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:54:00 -
[40]
Quote:
Quote:
i can fit 3 M-12 in MWD breacher No problem.....
and even one 200mm plate just in case
fitting launcher's isnt a problem, they use like 3 PG and 10 CPU, what about the 280mm, Neutron Blaster, Heavy Beam and even the 150mm?
who on earth use that C.rap in frigs in PVP ?
Cruises are must 
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Hakera
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:58:00 -
[41]
my thoughts have always been that large turrets as a class should not be able to hit a small frig unless at a standstill. using the old analogy, a WWII Battleship never shot down a Jap zero with its main guns. Neither should an Eve BS IMO even with multiple alts and badgers using tracking links.
Something is needed for frig's vs drones, drones just pwn frigs every time since most frigs get in close to a BS to get under their large turret range and use EW only to get pwned by drones in seconds. They do need some defence against them.
Untill each class offers a unique role in fleet battle, everyone will use BS since everyone can afford to lose them mostly. Interceptors fill a role nicely in fleet battle however the drone problem makes them useless.
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
Randuin MaraL
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:41:00 -
[42]
Quote:
I think the problem comes from battleships being able to mine.
They should create a "mining hardpoint" and make it so that no battleships have any of those hardpoints.
I would cheer to that.
____________________________________________________
Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die.
MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner |
Cpt Trenchard
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:58:00 -
[43]
Quote:
yes but a today frigate is larger then a WW2 destroyer and nearly a light crusier in size in most cases.
give a amiral unlimited resource and you end up with the big stuff. Example Norfork class anti submarine cruiser of the USA navy build at teh end of WW2 and to late to join the fightin.
what limits stuff is economics and the need to cover wide areas of course to show the flag in peace or to protect stuff at war.
econmics is a factor here to.
But as a role play games any player would prefere a battle ship to a frigatte in a show of flag mission.
Btw i use my frigates and cruiser for special jobs but i enjoy flying my real big toy. call it childish but thats the way it is.
Karsten hit the nail on the head here "What's limits stuff is economics" If you really want to see balanced fleet battles it would come not from changing ship stats but from quadrupuling the cost of BS, doubling the cost of cruisers and leaving Frigates alone. The major problem is as has been said many times on these boards anyone who can mine can have a battle ship in a week or two. Of course the problem with this becomes in a subscription based game 90% on your player base will not be willing to work over a year to obtain a BS and then they go away cause they can't have the big toy the first day in the game.
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Karsten
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:35:00 -
[44]
Quote:
using the old analogy, a WWII Battleship never shot down a Jap zero with its main guns.
not really accurate
standard anti torpedo bomber drill: fire the big guns in front of the incoming low level planes in the sea. the resulting waterfront had some effect on the attackers.
even todays guided ammo is able to hit nimble targets with big guns (i.e. copper head guided artillery rounds - 80s technology).
and eve ships are not fast. speeds are very low in fact. less then mach 2 in most cases.
no ship here is "fast" even in our current time.
no to mention things like proxy fuses (WW2 technology) and terminal guided ammo (80s technology).
Karsten
"All your ISK belong to the Viking Brewery" |
Stoop
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Posted - 2004.02.24 18:18:00 -
[45]
Very good idea Jim. Im not sure if it will really balance things but it is a step in the right direction.
I know this isnt apples to apples but I think that counterstrike and bf1942 are pretty balanced.
Almost all guns in CS get used (admintingly I havent played since 1.3) AWP is obviously the most powerful but only 20% of the people use it. The AK/Colt/Sig/and Terrorist counterpart to the Sig are very popular as well as the P-90 and MP-5. Even the pistols are very useful, the Deagle being the most obvious but the HK Tactical 45 pistol in that game is still pretty bad ass.
BF1942, every class gets used, every ground vehicle gets used, and every plane gets used. And the best part about it is.. A Tank (Battleship for Eve?) can slaughter infantry over and over but if you get a smart infantry dude with the right strategy he can trash a tank in no time. It doesnt work 100% and more accurately around 20% and is skill is a huge factor, both of the tank driver and the engineer/anti-tank fellow.
Like I said, not apples to apples but those games are pretty well balanced and its very fun.
In this game it takes a really really dumb/ill prepared BS pilot to die to 4 frigates or 2-4 cruisers. Drones pwn frigates and FoF missles/Drones pwn cruisers. Or they can simply log out. If you have some sheild boosters/hardeners on and drones/Fof (assuming you are target jammed) you can avoid death by logging .
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pooti
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Posted - 2004.02.24 18:24:00 -
[46]
i dunno about frigates and cruisers, but indies are far too weak defensively. i would be happy to see them get a armor/shield boost
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2004.02.24 18:50:00 -
[47]
Last time I checked, you can buy ten cruisers for the price of the cheapest battleship... And I never tried myself, but 10 cruisers ought to be able to waste that battleship... This means that pound for pound, cruisers are more powerful than battleships, right? I mean, a bb and two top tier cruisers ought to handle that battleship...
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Jim's beef is that PVP is all battleships, well unless you can have ten buddies with you to fight an opponent in battleship, why bother with anything less? NO one likes to lose on purpose. Or maybe Jim just wants to feel more manly while ganking frigates and cruisers from his battleship ;)
The real issue is game mechanics, namely the feasability of having massive battles due to lag. I do agree with Jim on the frigate issue... But I think interceptors may solve this... Wait and see.
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.24 18:53:00 -
[48]
Just introduce tier 4 cruisers with the suggestions Jim gave concerning HP.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Damajink
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:02:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Damajink on 24/02/2004 19:04:52
Quote:
The shiva patch didn't work at balancing ship classes
Eh? Did I miss something? I wasn't greeted with a 'Downloading Patch' message today.....
On the subject, I haven't been playing anywhere near long enough for my opinion to matter, but I agree. 'Lower' ships need to remain useable for situations instead of BSes being the end all, be all.
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Imperishable
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:11:00 -
[50]
Maybe instead of trying to reduce the vast gap between frigates/cruisers and battleships, we could just insert new ship class in middle of that power/cost gap.
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shakaZ XIV
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:31:00 -
[51]
Quote:
i dunno about frigates and cruisers, but indies are far too weak defensively. i would be happy to see them get a armor/shield boost
yup /me agrees
its impossible to protect them, the only useful thing u can do for an indy is scout ahead a bit...protecting on the spot wont help. they are dead in 1/2 volleys of.. anyhting really :P
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:40:00 -
[52]
A long time ago I started a thread that had the suggestion that indies should be armored and shielded like battleships. They should have like a 10mw power grid. Basically big lumbering armored, tanked, shielded hulks. Anyway the point was that it is too easy to kill them.
I pretty much agree with the purpose of making cruisers and frigs tougher nuts to ***** but I dunno if unilaterally boosting their hit points is the solution. I think more appropriate would be to make tracking and signature radius more extreme in its effect: REALLY REALLY hard to hit smaller objects with larger guns, but REALLY REALLY easy to hit larger objects with larger guns. You get the idea. Right now there is no reason to equip smaller weapons to counter smaller ships.
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Ashantee
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:52:00 -
[53]
Who wants to know the reason 5 200k frigs should be able to kill 1 100mil BS? I'll give you my take
1 mil creds for the frigs, and a little more for weapons
100mil creds for BS and a good deal more for weapons
5 pilots with good enough skills to use MWD's and good gunnery skills (or missile skills for kestrels)
1 Pilot with BS skill at 1 or 2 and either good gunnery skills or missile/gunnery skills (for you raven pilots out there)
THERE! see that? thats the BIG reason why "a 100k ship kill my 100 mil ship" PEOPLE
When you have 5 people working togther as a team, they become FAR greater than the sum of them.
Drones take ZERO people to fly, so heavy drone does NOT = a frig.
Lets take a good look at the important stuff.
5 frigs= 5 people working together
1 BS= 1 person with a load of heavy drones
in a Multiplayer game, one would think the groups of people would win, this is not the case, and i think it should be.
Frigs can kill BS's, if frigs move faster than cruise missiles, they are safe from everything EXCEPT drones. there are ways to work around this, but it shouldn't be this much of a problem. And i have no great ideas on how to change this without throwing everything out of balance.
Anyone who read this, do you have any ideas?
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.24 20:57:00 -
[54]
Ashantee, 
Ive never argued the topics problem using that angle but you have articulated a very good point. Team work is a main part of eve, and this should always be true in combat.
"A team is greater than the sum of their parts"
NOT, (but more than often is):
"a team IS the sum of their parts"
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N0b0dy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 21:42:00 -
[55]
A size relative hit factor, based on gun size, heavily biased on radial velocity would be very helpful.
Large guns can't hit small targets moving quickly with respect to tracking rate of the gun. Small guns can't miss giant targets if they tried. The lock time helped, but you really need this to gain survivability with frigs and cruisers.
Might be nice to see battleships have to mount a couple medium and a couple small guns along with those 2-4 large ones.
Small guns on small targets: usual hit miss
Small guns on medium targets: increased hit frequency
Small guns on large targets: virtually never miss
Medium guns on small targets: decreased hit frequency
Medium guns on medium targets: usual hit miss
Medium guns on large targets: increased hit frequency
Large guns on small targets: fat chance
Large guns on medium targets: decreased hit frequency
Large guns on large targets: usual hit miss
All guns on super large targets (stations, titans, etc.): virtually no misses
So, add a base number to account for size difference, then add an offset to that value to modify for gun angle relative motion. It's can't just be base velocity because it's easy to track a ship moving directly at you or away from you. It would give people a reason to zig-zag.
If this were implemented, you'd probably need to give the shield and hit point bonus to battleships. Ironic eh? 
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Cirle
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Posted - 2004.02.26 06:03:00 -
[56]
Quote:
Right now frigates have speed, but a lucky shot from a battleship is game over for them and cruisers lack speed and firepower to even think about hanging with battleships, only the blackbird is of any use, as a pure support ship.
What do you guys think?
Is the speed achieved by the use of MWD? In which case, remove or reduce the shield/cap penalties; bingo, twenty five to forty percent more shield and cap on a frigate or cruiser. It would be too much to hope it would ever happen on a battleship though :)
Of course, this would make running away easier as well, which would generate complaints on the other side of the argument.
Cirle |
Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2004.02.26 13:07:00 -
[57]
This is touching on points in other threads..
the gun size-target size mode is GREAT.
i would also make it a BIG modifier...
ie - large turrut == impossible to hit small fast frigate
big thing also - change the speeds..
make shuttle/frigate base speed aroun 1k/sec
cruiser/indy base speed around 400m/sec
battleship base speed around 50m/sec
then with the overdrives/nanos/burners/MWD you can change the speeds, but make instead ot "+30m/s" speed for overdrives etc, make it a %... like a permanent afterburner - +25% speed (so again more effective for frigs, less for bs)
indys do need more armour/shields. they are basically cruiser size anyway.
a frigate should be able to run in, jam/scramble/web a battleship and stay safe from damage. Need to use small guns (ideally) or med guns to actually shoo them away - better yet use other frigates.
But BIG things was teamwork should really be improved - or the effect of it.
5 frigs should own a battleship
3 cruisers too
need the reasons for classes..
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.26 14:19:00 -
[58]
"Small guns on small targets: usual hit miss
Small guns on medium targets: increased hit frequency
Small guns on large targets: virtually never miss
Medium guns on small targets: decreased hit frequency
Medium guns on medium targets: usual hit miss
Medium guns on large targets: increased hit frequency
Large guns on small targets: fat chance
Large guns on medium targets: decreased hit frequency
Large guns on large targets: usual hit miss"
... There's still a problem that 'tis idea doesn't address. Namely, the small/medium guns don't really do that less damage than their heavier counterparts. Which means, with current shield/armour sizes a frigate vs frigate fight lasts mere seconds if they get the target within gun range. Cruiser vs cruiser is similar -- rarely lasts a minute, and that's with shield boosters and stuff going.
That's why i wouldn't mind to see the hitpoints increased acros the board to be honest. The frigate fight should be a bit longer. The cruiser should be able to duel for quite a while. Battleship vs battleship should really take time (with nerfed cap relays the ability to tank damage will be reduced and consequently fights become shorter) unless it's few ships vs one -- battleships are supposed to be huge, so they should be able to take lot of beating before finally going down...
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Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2004.02.26 15:15:00 -
[59]
What about that way: 1 BS and 1 frig should be a significant threat even more like 2 BS's.
But 2 frigs on their own shouldnt be able to kill a BS.
BS owns a cruiser and is good vs BS's
Cruiser owns a frig and is good vs cruisers and BS's
Frigs LOCK DOWN BS's and is good vs frigs and cruiser
That way you would see frigs cuz they can lock down BS's and you would see cruisers to take out frigs and help BS's to kill other BS's and of course BS's to take out BS's and cruiser.
To solve the problem you shouldnt need 5 people in frigs to kill one BS but you should favor a mixed fleet instead of BS's only.
It should be all about a mixed fleet!!!
Greetings Grim |
Xelios
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Posted - 2004.02.26 19:03:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Xelios on 26/02/2004 19:05:36
Battleships have always been too self-reliant. What ever happened to 'battleships will need frigate or cruiser escort to be effective'? Sure they're slow, but if you're travelling 2 mwd's fix that. Sure they can be jammed and scrambled by a cruiser, but if you carry some FOF cruise missiles you're fine. Anything to help lower class ships a bit is great, but I don't think giving them 50% more hitpoints is the right solution, they still won't be able to compete with 8 turrets doing 200 damage each. On the other hand, they shouldn't be able to compete with that, not alone.
"They should create a "mining hardpoint" and make it so that no battleships have any of those hardpoints."
Yeah really, it's a BATTLESHIP, not an uber miner. Make mining lasers use seperate mining hardpoints please.
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